Origins: The World is Old (Laurence Housman)

Subject: RE: Origins: The World is Old (Laurence Housman)
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 11:07 PM

I know this is an old thread - but I just discovered this amazing song and wanted to know more about it.

I found this:
http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/world_is_old.htm

Houseman was correct! And the music was by Joseph Morrat.Source: Martin Shaw and Percy Dearmer, The English Carol Book, Second Series (London: A. R. Mowbray & Co. Ltd., 1913), Carol #50.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Burke
Date: 01 May 01 - 05:37 PM

My library has 2 editions of Bethlehem & they seem to be fairly widely held. Neither have music. Our copies are available through interlibrary loan & other libraries' copies should be, check with your local library. The edition kytrad mentions is Bethlehem only. The other ed. has more: Bethlehem : a nativity play ; the Pageant of Our lady & other poems / by Laurence Housman. London : Macmillan, 1902. 85 p. The other poems are 8 Christmas songs.

Preface
All the songs of the 'Nativity Play' together with the whole of the 'Pageant of Our Lady' and the 'Christmas Songs,' which are here printed, were designed to be set to music by my friend, Mr. Joseph Moorat. Standing thus separate from their context, their appeal to the reader is necessarily incomplete.

The World is Old is sung by the Shepherds after a choral introduction as the curtain opens at the start of the play.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 04:42 PM

Well, but don't both interpretations boil down to the same meaning? So be it.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 01 - 07:48 AM

I don't think that the original written words have any greater validity than the words as recycled over many years in Jean's memory. If anything the other way round - some of the edges have been rounded off to fit the needs of a song as opposed to a written poem. I think I prefer Jean's, especially the last line.

Songs need to develop variants. I sometimes feel. I know that when I sing my own songs they vary a good bit. The same way when you tell a story or a joke it won't be exactly the same each time.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

Not better, just more verbose. :-)

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 06:06 PM

Well, looks like we agree on that, Greyeyes! (You express it better though.)

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:56 PM

Sorry Noreen, crossed post.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:53 PM

Doesn't it mean "when we are no more". As in no longer conscious. He's talking about the eternity of nature compared to our own mortality. The world is already old when we are young, it's been around for thousands of years, and will be around for thousands more after we "lie cold" in our graves and "lack will" ie sentience, after we're dead. That's how I read it.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 05:50 PM

I understand the last line to mean poetically, 'when we are dead' i.e. the living have free will, the dead do not... sounds awkward explained, but it works in the language of the verse.

Noreen

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 03:07 PM

kytrad: I think your 'like will' interpretation is correct

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 29 Apr 01 - 02:28 PM

My understanding of that last line (when we like will) is, as I indicated before, "when we, as does the snow, like wool lie white." Was not Mr. Housman using the word, "lack" as an older way of saying, "like?" Otherwise, what does, "When we lack will," mean, in the context of the verse? Lacking (being short of) the will to do what? Explain, please, you scholars.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 04:21 PM

A tune, a tune, my kingdom for a tune! Noteworthy format is preferable, but I'll take a scan or anything for this one. Oh, I see MMario beat me to the punch on asking Greyeyes for it, so I'll just grin and be lazy and let MMario do the transcription.

Greyeyes, you have "do shine there light," and Jean has "their." Which is in the printed version?

---

Just got the scan from Greyeyes. It's definitely "shine their light," but it's shown as "show their light" under the music and "shine" where the lyrics are posted without lyrics.

So, the only major difference between the printed version and Jean's is the mention of "dear love" in the first verse and "dear lads" in the second - those don't make much difference, but the printed version has "when we lack will," which I think makes a bit more sense.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

Ms. Bristah went a step further to be helpful, by giving the name of the index wherein she found the piece:
De Charms, Desiree, and Paul F. Breed
Songs in Collections: an index
Detroit: Information Service c1966

The index in now out of print, but she says every library has one. That's certainly good to know. Jean

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 28 Apr 01 - 08:16 AM

"we all ask everybody, check sources, make suggestions, search all over the damned net"

And Jean found it by ASKING A LIBRARIAN.

We're not quite obsolete yet.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:23 PM

Don't you just love it?

Jean spent all those years and never ran across it......Then we all ask everybody, check sources, make suggestions, search all over the damned net.......and then it's found.

BUT...........

Have you noticed though that now that we know what to look for ........IT'S EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!! Ya' gotta' admit it's pretty humorous.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 09:15 PM

And here's a link to another carol Laurence Housman wrote, with a picture of him. And yet another one Both with midis and scores.(Though they are neither of them as good as the World is Old, in my opinion anyway.)

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 03:13 PM

WOW!

Mudcat at its best! Just wonderful to read through!

Thanks and congratulations!

kat

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: GUEST,Greyeyes
Date: 27 Apr 01 - 05:46 AM

Yes it is MMario, I've got your address already so I'll send it tonight.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: MMario
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 11:21 PM

Is the music in the carol book? I'd like a scan of that if it is.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:46 PM

Out of interest, there's a 1927 copy of Housman's Bethlehem available just now through Alibris, at $34.00:  Bethlehem, a Nativity Play.  The link will probably work for a short time only.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

I'm so glad it's found! And, actually, Jean found it herself, via MudCat suggestions, yes, but she did it herself!! Whoopeee!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM

And yes I do know the difference between there and their, but frequently mistype them. Twice in one thread today; AAARRRGGGHHH.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE WORLD IS OLD (Laurence Housman)^^
From: Greyeyes
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 06:00 PM

Here are the words transcribed from The English Carol Book. If anyone would like a scan can they PM me an e-mail address.


THE WORLD IS OLD
Words by Laurence Housman
Music by Joseph Moorat

The world is old to-night,
The world is old;
The stars around the fold
Do shine there their light.
And so they did, and so,
A thousand years ago,
And so will do, dear love,
When you lie cold.

The world is still to-night,
The world is still;
The snow on vale and hill
Like wool lies white.
And so it was, and so,
A thousand years ago,
And so will do, dear lads,
When we lack will.
^^

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Hollowfox
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:21 PM

Jean, you can say you only asked the question, but if you hadn't asked, we wouldn't have had the delight of searching, and finding, this beautiful piece. The questions are what really keeps things moving here, after Max.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 02:42 PM

Well, I'm pleased with the congratulations but it was as much you folks as I, who did the job. Like all this hoopla with the Dulcimer these days- I merely introduced it!

But it is great to learn all this about Laurence Housman, which I should have known already. Now I am determined to get to know him better- he's my kind of writer. I spelled it Lawrence because that's the way Wellesley's librarian spelled it...I even reread her letter to be sure (and I notice that even IanC spells it BOTH ways). I guess, the eye just plays funny tricks.

Greyeyes, you mentioned reference to a play from which the carol was taken. Pamela Bristah writes: "...there is a rare item...in Special Collections...if ever up this way you could arrange to see it... AUTHOR Housman, Laurence, 1865-1959
TITLE Bethlehem; a nativity play...performed with
music by Joseph Moorat...December, MCMIL
IMPRINT New York, The Macmillan Company; London,
Macmillan and Co., Ltd.
NOTE One leaf of publisher's advts. at the back
NOTE Blue cloth decorated in green and gilt floral

This play is probably the one my sister used, or to which she referred. And thanks, Paul; I would like your scan of the lyric. Love and thanks to all, Jean

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: GUEST,Greyeyes
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:56 AM

From the Preface:- "We have also to thank Mr Joseph Moorat and Mr Laurence Housman for the two Carols (Nos.47 and 50) from there nativity play "Bethlehem". (47 "Noel, Noel, Noel" and 50 "The World is Old")

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: GUEST,Greyeyes at work
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 08:45 AM

I'm almost embarassed to admit we've got a copy of the 1913 edition of the English Carol Book in my library. I have it in my hand. Unfortunately the song index on our catalogue doesn't extend to carol anthologies, which is why I wasn't able to track the song down, there are just too many volumes for me to go through them all. Sorry.

Jean, if you'd like me to scan it & e-mail it to you let me know. Your memory of the words is almost flawless. I'll post them later.

Paul

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: IanC
Date: 26 Apr 01 - 05:33 AM

Oh Lord!

Got the wrong brother! Never thought it would be Lawrence.

Lawrence Housman (1865-1959)

The illustrator, author and poet Laurence Housman was born in Bromsgrove, one of seven children (the eldest brother was A. E. Housman). He had a difficult childhood - his mother died when he was a young child, and the family lived in some degree of poverty. In 1882 he went with his sister Clemence Housman to Lambeth, where he studied at the City and Guilds Art School. Following this, he studied at South Kensington from 1887, and started book illustration in the following year. Early work appeared in a magazine called the Universal Review, then he illustrated books by George Meredith, Christina Rossetti (Goblin Market), and then two books of his own fairy stories in the mid-1890s - A House of Joy and A Farm in Fairyland, and later illustrated The Field of Clover. He stayed very close to his sister Clemence, who engraved for him, the pair finally settling in Street, Somerset in the 1920s. Both lived to an advanced age, she dying in 1955, he a few years later at the age of 95. As well as the illustration and poetry, Housman wrote a book on the artist Boyd Houghton, and did bookbinding.

Sorry!
Ian

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Night Owl
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 11:59 PM

congratulations Jean!!!!!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Noreen
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 09:08 PM

Great news Jean!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:35 PM

I was going up to Wagnall's on Friday and hadn't checked back here yet.......just figured I'd get any additional before I went and now LOOK AT THIS!!!!!!! Mary sent me a PM and I am simply amazed that it has all come together! Jean, you did it!!!!

My thanks to everyone too for grabbing onto this, it was just an odd request and damn if it didn't work out! Simply amazing. And once again, STEWIE IS SIMPLY UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!! Somebody started a thread thanking him for something the other day and it gave several of us a chance to sing his praises. I said then that in one discussion we were having, Stewie accidentally posted to the wrong thread and I am so used to believing him that I took his word as gospel even though it made no sense!!!

BTW Jean, Stewie is excellent on Old Timey and Appalachian stuff....He always amazes you with an extra tidbit when you think the subject has been exhausted. What really is a riot is that Stewie lives in Australia....Northern Territories I believe.

Anyway.........Thanks to all of you and CONGRATULATIONS JEAN!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:30 PM

A great dig!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:19 PM

It is great that it has been found. I had no idea that A.E. had a brother. Evidently, Laurence was much more prolific than his brother. There is a library of his works catalogued here:

Laurence Housman

I found one of his poems on-line. Given that it was Anzac Day yesterday here in Oz, it seems appropriate to the moment:

A Dead Warrior

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:37 PM

Oh - one correction. The spelling is Laurence, not Lawrence.

I've had a rapid flick through teh St FRancis plays, and couldn't find this. But here is a carol from one of them which you might like:

"Who knocks tonight so late?"
The weary porter said.
Three kings stood at the gate;
Each with a crown on head.

The serving man bowed down;
The inn was full, he knew.
Said he, "In all this town
Is no fit place for you."

A light the manger lit;
There lay the Mother meek,
Said they, "This place is fit:
Here is the rest we seek."

They loosed their latchet strings;
So stood they all unshod.
Come in, ye kings, ye kings,
And kiss the Feet of God!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:27 PM

Congratulations. Perseverance pays off.

Lawrence Housman was the brother of AE - he wrote a whole series of short plays about St Francis, as well as other stuff.

He was a committed pacifist, and very active in the Peace Pledge Union - Housmans Bookshop in London near King's Cross in the Caledonian Road commemorates his name, since the house above it was bought largely with funds given by him. It was for many years where Peace News was published, and provided offices for all kinds of movement organisations. And it publishes the Housmans Peace Diary, which is a handy collection of contacts all over the world.

I know this because I used to work for Peace News back in the 60s - I'm kicking myself I didn't think of Lawrence Housman, since it sounded so like his brother, but I knew it wasn't in AE's collected works. But I've got the St Francis Plays, and I suspect this carol might actually be on my shelves all along.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 07:10 PM

WHOOPEE!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 06:37 PM

I remembered that someone had mentioned the name, "Housman," and scrolled back to Stewie's note to check it. Incredible that A.E. and Lawrence were brothers...it seems the age of the world was much thought upon in the Housman family! I'm waiting now for the song copy, to see how well my sister remembered it.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 05:04 PM

This is just great! I've been following this thread with fascination and it's so great you got your answer, Jean! Congratulations! My dad calls a search like this a "grail", and you've certainly looked high and low for this one.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:55 PM

I've just checked the Oxford Companion to Eng Lit and they were brothers. Stewie that is unbelievable!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Greyeyes
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 04:53 PM

Do you suppose Lawrence Housman might be related to AE Housman? Stewie suggested him as a possible source of the words right up the top. It would be an astonishing educated guess if there's a connection.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Hollowfox
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:44 PM

Awll-Riight!!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: MMario
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:41 PM

HUZZAH!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 02:30 PM

OK. I'll break down and give you the main source, revealed in the email from Wellesley's indefatigable music librarian, Pamela Bristah:

"It is in an anthology, 'The English Carol Book,' edited by Martin Shaw and Percy Dearmer (London: Mowbray, 1921)... It is titled, 'The World is Old,' the composer is Joseph Moorat, and the words are by Lawrence Housman."

She'll send a copy of the song when she receives the anthology on interlibrary loan.

TA-DA!!! Thanks to all of you, Jean

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: MMario
Date: 25 Apr 01 - 08:32 AM

If this leads to success ( and I hope it does! ) the story would make a nice testimonial for Dick. Yes, it relates more to the MudCat then the DT - but without the DT the Mudcat probably woudn't be what it is...

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 09:51 PM

My breath is positively baited!!! (Oh, c'mon, yopu know me better than thatt. I know I shoulda said 'bated!)

A

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:58 PM

Whoo whoo! Lots of us are waiting.......this has to be one of the most fascinating things I have seen for years. I hope it's good news, Jean.

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:55 PM

We're waiting too!

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 24 Apr 01 - 05:48 PM

Well. I have heard from Wellesley College and it looks as though news is coming through any day- the Music Library is mailing it via p.o. so I'm watching for the postman. I'm refreshing this thread- in anticipation! Jean

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM

Sorry- I barked too soon! It was the copyright date I was seeing- 1998. The clip,I saw when reading further, is from the movie(?), "Going Hollywood, 193_(cuts off here). Anyway, I cannot see any similarities either in lyric or melody to "World is Old." Thanks, though! Jean

Subject: RE: The World is Old- request info
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 07:53 PM

I think this song was sung by Bing Crosby in 1935. The song clip linked to above was a recent record of that sound track. I think I read somewhere that they didn't even make records of sound tracks in 1935. Anyway, Bruce referred to the chorus of that song which has similar words to "The World is Old." Of course, I'm just guessing about all this stuff that occurred way before I was born. ;-)