ALERT! All Armchair Sailors

Subject: ALERT!All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,ROLL&GO-C
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 12:59 PM

A&E TV is running another Hornblower series, starting Sunday, April 8, 8-10 pm. Arrggghhh!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:13 PM

I didn't think I was an armchair sailor until last week when my dishwasher got a valve stuck. There I was in an archair with the water rising about me. You might try reading the Hornblower series, too. I recall having read them many years ago.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:14 PM

I didn't think I was an armchair sailor until last week when my dishwasher got a valve stuck. There I was in an archair with the water rising about me. You might try reading the Hornblower series, too. I recall having read them many years ago.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: MMario
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:43 PM

I ran through every hornblower book I could get my hands on when I was in fourth or fifth grade. Remember having to take notes to the library from my Mom - because they said they were too "advanced" for me. great series

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 01:45 PM

Wild, MMario. The library never told me what not to read when I was a kid. Seems like an overstepping of their job boundaries to me.

Readers of the world unite against fascist librarians!

With apologies to non-fascist librarians everywhere, of course.

Alex.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 02:30 PM

Count me in, Thief!! Down with Grundies and Fascists and little old ladies of all sexes and ages!

A_who_LOVED_Hornblower_when_12.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 04:12 PM

Anyone who loved the Hornblower series should read Patrick O'Brien's Jack Aubrey novels. They're even better!

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Wotcha
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:24 PM

Read "Cochrane: The Life and Exploits of a Fighting Captain," by Robert Harvey (Carroll and Graf, NY 2000).
Cochrane's life is the basis for the Patrick O'Brian novels. Fact is stranger than fiction -- this is a great read!! Here is a naval operator who "invented" commando tactics, helped to liberate Chile, Brazil, and Greece, meanwhile biting all the hands that fed him: quite the character.
Another book needs to be written about Bernardo O'Higgens (not kidding about the name) who had a hand in the liberation of Chile ...
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:34 AM

Is this the same as the BBC mini-series that came out a few years ago? I enjoyed that one.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:36 AM

And to Patrick O'Brien's series add Dewey Lamdin's (spicier).

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Grab
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 07:59 AM

Hmm. The Hornblower TV series was OK, if you didn't know too much about boats, and the range of cannon, and continuity. Still...

Graham.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: KitKat
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:10 AM

I loved the books and the series is excellent just because of Iowan Gruffyd (I think I spelled that right) who is just gorgeous. I don't worry about technical things with cannon and muskets - that's boys' stuff!

Kit Kat

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 08:41 AM

I, too, favor the Patrick O'Brian series – far better writing but no one is trying to film that, and I seriously doubt if they could do O'Brian's writing justice. The new Hornblower series is considerably superior to the Gregory Peck 1950's film. There's also a coffee table book out now on how the film production company put together the ships (Russian shipyards), their various scale models, how they operate them, and other slight of hand stuff.

As for other good reads, you might try James Nelson's novels (former 2nd officer on the HMS Rose), and then there's Alexander Kent's 20 or so novels (the lesser of several other weevils as Dr. Maturin might remark) although I find his work rather repetitious and somewhat thin fare. Or you could just stay tuned to the Cranky Yankee thread!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:02 AM

Dudley Pope's Ramage series (he's also Alexander Kent), Richard Woodman's Drinkwater series, Showell Styles Fitton series,Philip McCutchan's Halfhyde series (this one is later - with the emergence of steam) are all worth looking at, all better than Hornblower (IMO)and equally as good as, if not better than O'Brian.
RtS

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: kendall
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:14 AM

I also loved Hornblower when I was 12..I still do. Not to put too fine a point on it, but, O'Brian gets too involved in the nomenclature. Cross catharpings! cunt splices.. I didn't like Aubrey from the start..talking at the opera while the performers were working.And, then, he hires the guy who told him to shut up! Hard to swallow.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 09:50 AM

Well, Kendall, I'm sure you'll agree that it's too late to "curtail" O'Brian's success.

And I'm aware that "Alexander Kent" is Douglas Reeman but I'd be greatly surprised if he was also Dudley Pope.

And speaking about good reads, let's not forget the outrageous tales in Dr. Dogbody's Leg by James Norman Hall; Kendall, you'd love these stories.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:22 AM

Hated the series. A wimpie Hornblower. Gregory Peck had it right. I prefer Captains Courageous with Freddie Bartholamew (SP) and Spencer tracy. Even made me want to go to sea.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 10:44 AM

R&G-C is right, of course, and gets the doughnut for spotting my "deliberate" mistake. I think Dudley Pope does have an alter ego but I can't bring it to mind.
RtS (sometime [at school] Sea Cadet Corps Petty Officer but mostly an armchair sailor).
RtS

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 11:55 AM

Roger, I think Dudley Pope is really Enid Blyton on speed. On second thoughts, her plots were much more complex and her characters more 3-dimensional!

Steve

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:35 PM

Charlton Heston has had the options on a film treatment of the Aubrey-Maturin novels for a number of years now, but the mad old fart seems too concerned with banging the drum for the NRA (sorry, risking thread creep AND flame wars here...) to pull his finger out.
As for casting the O'Brian books; a few fellow addicts and I have had many a pedantic evening trying to work out who would play whom in a film adaptation. My suggestion of Tony Robinson in his Baldrick incarnation for Maturin wasn't too well received. Can't think why...
On another tack entirely, I can recommend the cook-book, Lobscouse and Spotted Dog, based on the food that is mentioned so often in series.
And for those who are wondering what the feck I'm blathering on about, just read the books. They're highly addictive.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:39 PM

Gervase - I'd be happy to play Preserved Killick!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 12:46 PM

And I'll be happy to sing all the new verses I wrote to "Kicking Up Bob's-a-Dying."

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

There's not a bad CD available of songs from O'Brian (and a couple of CDs of the chamber music featuring in the novels) - trouble is, I can't for the life of me remember who did them, and my copy's at home and I'm in the office).
For fellow Aubrey-Maturin addicts, there's many an hour to be wasted here

And apologies to Forrester fans for hijacking the thread!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:04 PM

Bugger!
Mangled the blicky.

Try here

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 01:20 PM

Getting back to Hornblower, I did enjoy my visit to 'Grand Turk' when she came to Hull. Grand Turk is the replica Napoleonic post ship (they call it a frigate, but it's a bit small for that) that they used for the earlier episodes.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 03:44 PM

Try Gervase's link above, and lose yourself in fictional worlds of Patrick O'Brian.

You know, Heston used to be a sailor himself. Maybe, he will come up with a decent film.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 04:21 PM

Captain Blood by Rafael Sabatini (the book, not the Errol Flynn movie, although that wasn't too bad.) And sequels.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 02:43 PM

I have been told that an Aubrey-Maturin movie is in the works, and that HMS ROSE will be used for the purpose.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:57 PM

You know, the old Gregory Peck movie had one thing that is difficult to find in modern movies. When a cannonball struck the ship it DIDN'T explode. It knocked off bits and pieces, large bits and pieces.

I am rereading the Hornblower books now. Forrester wrote a better adventure story with a more complex hero but O'Brian did a better job of catching the flavor of the times. That, plus his ship actions were real ship actions gleaned from the log bokks, journals and gazzettes of the time. He changed the names to fit the story but they are accurate.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 05:17 PM

I wonder if they'll be any more singing in the Hornblower series this time around. No, I'm sure they wouldn't dare do any sea shanties but there are plenty of naval ballads and drinking songs that are appropriate to the period. I'm still looking forward to watching the A&E channel this Sunday at 8 pm, along with my father who'll be celebrating his 96th birthday (bourbon and cider rather than grog).

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Dave Swan
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 07:00 PM

Roll&Go,

Many Happy Returns of the Day to your dad. Tell me about his poison. Burbon & what sort of cider? Apple? Hard? Sounds interesting. Might it be the secret of his success? There are livers a-quiver all over the mud waiting to hear.

Dave

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:01 PM

I just checked the barrel; it's Jack Daniels Old No.7 and the cider is fresh rather than hard. Father is quite mellow these days but back when me and my brother were growing up he was rather short tempered; it couldn't have been because of us – we was always perfect angels!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:54 PM

Angels! Hah!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Pete M
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:46 PM

We have seen some of the Hornblower TV series here in NZ and the thing that drove me mad, apart from the exploding round shot, is that the idiot in charge of the CGI obviously decided that a ship sailing along with all sails drawing was far too boring and not worthy of their talents, after all it could have been done by multiple images, so all the CGI ships tops'l were continually backing and flapping. I've always wonder why production companies are prepared to spend millions? on hiring replicas, special effects etc but can't, or won't, spend a few hundered on getting someone with some vague knowledge of real life to do a quality check. I suppose its too much to expect.

Pete M

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 04:47 AM

And what about those wonderful recoil-less guns?

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Grab
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 05:54 AM

My pet peeve was the distances. You've got two bloody big ships with bloody big cannon on board, right? So how come all the film has them about 50 yards from each other then?! The range of those kind of cannon can't have been much less than half a mile, so by the time you've got 50 yards from the other ship, the quantity of cannonballs coming over is going to have pretty much mashed both ships to a pulp!

The lookouts suffer from it too. "Ship ahoy!" "Well bugger me, so there is, and it's only 50 yards away too. Damn, we must have been asleep for the last half hour! Good job you spotted it, or we might've run straight into it. Right, recoil-less guns out lads, and don't forget the exploding cannonballs..."

Graham.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:09 AM

Well, Grab, in the interests of realism, the ships sometimes did fight at such close ranges. Remember, they are firing from a moving platform and aiming by eye. They were a pretty skillful bunch.

And they did pound the snot out of those ships. It's amazing the amount of damage they could soak up. And the complex repairs the crews were capable of.

And ship ahoy, you are right. That ship would have been spotted as her topsails or maybe even her royals cut the horizon. Then it would have taken most of the day to draw near enough to determine friend or foe. Longer if one decided not to let the other bear down on her.

Which brings up another point and that is our perception of time. Consider, in those ships, if you were in a hurry you still didn't get anywhere fast and you were at the mercy of the wind and weather. If you spotted a ship on the horizon or the port you were anxious to make, it was still many hours if not another day before you could speak with the other ship or get in to drop anchor in the harbor. Today, that kind of delay would drive people nuts.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: kendall
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

The Hornblower character was so human..he was tone deaf, yet, he was forced to condemn a sailor for refusing to play the note the band master wanted. He was ordered to play an A and he insisted that it should be A flat, or sharp, I forget. Music, to him was just so much thumping and scraping.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:23 AM

Very true, Naemanson, that wouldn't make for good TV. For every naval buff that watches the programme there are thousands who are just watching a drama.

Some actions were fought at 'pistol shot' or even 'half pistol shot' - even less than 50 yards. You couldn't get much use out of carronades at over 250 yards.

Unrealistic recoil? Just think about how many sailors were injured by their own recoiling cannon! You would need pretty big insurance policies and a lot of stunt men.

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:44 AM

Just how fast did real guns recoil? I've seen B&W Hollywood (or Pinewood) films where the guns roll back ever so sedately, whereas Hornblower's (or was it Bolitho's?) cannon always jerked back and made the breechings twang. Admittedly, being run over by a steam roller would be as bad for the health as being run over by a speeding truck, but in the interests of historical verisimilitude ...

Steve

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: sledge
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM

For a no nonsesne summery of what it was like to man and fight in the era being discussed buy or borrow a book called war at sea in the age of sail, by Cassel publishing, clears a lot of misconceptions.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:13 AM

I did like the scenes in the last A&E Hornblower series where the French and English frigrates were searching each other out in the fog. No radar, no GPS, just blundering about listening, then suddenly a ship materializes and they're both firing away like mad! Reminds me of the time we were slowly nosing our way through Penebscot Bay in the fog a few years back. There we were in a forty-foot ketch banging pots and pans trying to avoid the tourist cruise boats and the occasional oil barge. If we'd only had Brett's cannon!

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: sledge
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:19 AM

Tourist boats out in the fog, what did the idiots expect to see????

:)

Sledge

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:23 AM

Steve - those guns had a quick recoil. The slow recoil of film and TV is just their way of saving their actors' toes! Gunpowder explodes whereas cordite and similar just burns very very quickly.

A friend of mine used to crew a Civil War (the English One not the Other One) demi-culverin (about a 9pdr). They only use quarter charges. And that thing could leap!

Les

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 09:25 AM

Well, at least they didn't miss the boat! Really, you have to understand, here in Maine we're got at least twenty words for fog, each one an expletive. Ask Kendall about his favorite way of navigating through the fog, his own special version of GPS (hint: P = potato)

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Lt. Brown
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:48 PM

Bit of a thread creep here...but I have a children's book at home that is as old as I am...Have had it all my life, well anyways, there is an excerpt from a children's book he wrote called Poo Poo and the Dragon....or something like that,...

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Chip2447
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 04:03 AM

Personally I find the A&E Hornblowers to be a pleasant change from the the normal mindless drivel that comes in on that idiot box. If it weren't for the History Channel and a few others I wouldnt have a television. At least for a couple of hours tonight, I wont be in front of this damned computer.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: GUEST,Pete M at work
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:37 PM

Hi Grab,

the standard weapon for long range (over a cable or so) was the "long nine" (9 pdr). These were often mounted in the bow ports of frigates so as the engage any bloody Frenchie that wasn't sporting enough to stay still and be shot at. ;-) Ships of the line did not mount anything so light, and were not expected to engage at long range.

As Les has pointed out, half pistol shot was normal fighting range and frequently engagements ended with opposing ships locked together firing into each other with barely enough room to run the lower deck guns out. One principal differneces in fighting tactics was when to fire your broadside, on the up or down roll. Generally speaking the Royal Navy tried to fire on the down roll to inflict maximum hull damage and casualties, whilst the French (as they were usually trying to get away) fired on the up roll to damage masts and spars. One of the reasons the RN didn't take too many prizes in major engaements, they were too riddled with shot to get back to port in one piece!

The idea of engaging at long range was taken up very slowly even when the guns and projectiles were capable of accurate fire at extended range.

The establishment of HMS Excellent as a gunnery school had a geat affect on accuracy, but it was the introduction of the practical torpedo rather than the capabilities of guns which was the determining factor in dictating long range for inter ship actions.

Sir Percy Scott was one of the main drivers of the adoption of "Modern" gunnery over the period 1895 - 1910. Possibly his most famous (notoriuos?) exploit was when Rear Admiral 1st Cruiser squadron, to signal to one of his ships the "Since paintwork was more important than gunnery, they'd better come back and make themselves pretty." which went down like a lead penguin with the CinC Channel Fleet!

I came across the following (author unknown) about him, which mentions most of his achievements, technical and military. (For the uninitiated HMS Excellent was a stone frigate located on Whale Island, the "dotter", deflection taecher, loading tray, and director firing were all introduced by Scott, and the references to Ladysmith and the ZBoxer rebellion refer to the involvement of 'bluejackets' from Sir P's ships in those conflicts manning ships main guns dismounted and put on to land based conveyances of his design.) A Terrible Creed

I belive in Percy Scott, Captain ubiquitous, Lord of Humility, Maker of gun-carriages, And of all things advertised and not advertised And in the Terrible's, the heroes unlimited, the breakers of records, And in one Dotter, invention of one Captain, the only begotten son of modesty, by whom most things are puffed; Who, for the navy and our salvation, came down from Whale Island and was self-incarnated reformer of evils, And was made Captain, and was persecuted under the Admiralty. Captain of the Scylla, Captain of the Terrible, Percy Scott of Percy Scott, born not made, being one with himself and forever with the Daily Mail. Saviour of Ladysmith, he suffered at Durban and was insufficiently rewarded. And the next time he arose in China to slay Boxers according to the papers; And in the fourth year he returned to Portsmouth, And he ascended unto Balmoral and sitteth on the right hand of the King; And he shall be heard of again, with glory belated, to teach self-sepreciation to a nation whose adulation shall have no end. And I believe in the Deflection-Teacher, the Lord and Giver of Points, who proceedeth from the Scylla and the Terrible, who with the Terrible's together is feted and glorified, who spake by the newpapers; And I belive in one Loading-Tray, the key for Selection; I confess to one Flashing-Lamp, electro-mechanical, light of lights, very flash of very flash; I acknowledge one shutter form the emission of signs, And I look for the Paying-off of the Terrible and the distribution of more honours to come. Amen.

Subject: RE: ALERT! All Armchair Sailors
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 09:02 PM

Thanks for that, Pete. Pretty good stuff. I have always been fascinated with the discipline and guts it took to work a cannon while locked in a ship action at close range. Only the Navy could fight using cannons at pistol shot range.

Pistol shot range, by the way, in the era before rifling and cartridges would have been about 25 yards max!

And most of the wounds inflicted were splinters knocked out by the round shot. Imagine a four foot "splinter" of oak through the gut! The old accounts tell of blood running from the scuppers. Must have been horrific.