Tune/Chords Req: Simple Gifts

Subject: the notes or chords to a song
From: Selene
Date: 19 Dec 97 - 12:59 PM

Hi there

I'm kinda new to this, so please bear with me. I'm looking for the music, for an accoustic (read western) guitar, so I can play and attempt to sing the song "simple gifts", the version that goes "'tis a gift ot be simple 'tis a gift to be free 'tis a gift to come down where we ought to be" etc.

Can anybody help me with this?

I'd be extremely gratefull

Selene [e-mail]

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Jon W.
Date: 19 Dec 97 - 01:30 PM

Using the search box at the top of the page, enter in [simple gifts] (the brackets are necessary) and click on search. Three titles will come up, including the one you are looking for. Clicking that title will get you to the song itself (lyrics). At the bottom there is a link that says "CLICK HERE TO PLAY." If you have a soundcard, clicking there should play the melody. But if you press the shift key and click there at the same time, it will let you save the melody to your hard disk as a MIDI file. Then if you have MIDI software you can use it to see the notes. There are many alternative ways of doing this. Look for some threads in this forum that are a few days to a few weeks old on music notation software that could help.

As for chords, it's a two-chord song. G and D7 work for me. Start of on G. Switch to D7 at "Gift to come down..." Try a plain D if it sounds better.

Welcome to the Mudcat!

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Dan Duryea
Date: 19 Dec 97 - 03:02 PM

I remember being where you are now a while back... wanting to learn and not knowing exactly how to get started. I found the combination of the Rise up Singing book+teaching tapes helpful. But the best thing is to find people who know just a little more than you do and get together with them. Avoid people who know a great deal more than you do, as they will just confuse you.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: dani
Date: 19 Dec 97 - 05:06 PM

...amen...

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From:
Date: 20 Dec 97 - 11:09 AM

Hi- If you want d demo, ask any of your local musicians to show you Lord of the Dance; same tune.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Dec 97 - 02:11 PM

Hmmm. This might be a good thread for you knowledgeable folks to teach a little to us who sing "by ear" and can't play an instrument other than a CD player. I had music class in every one of my 16 years of Catholic education, but I never did quite get the hang of music theory. My kids seem to have a pretty good handle on it, and I need help keeping up with them. Anybody up to teaching a little Music 101?
First question: how do you determine chords for a song, and how do the chords related to the melody in any given measure? Why is is that guitarists seem to know which chords to play when all that is said is that the song is in the "Key of G," for instance? Heck, ABCmus inserts chords automatically if you tell it the melody (and pay the $10 registration fee), so it must be a reasonably easy process to determine chords.
I've decided I'm not coordinated enough to play the guitar, so now I'm trying the Autoharp. A little education on chords would be a big help. Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From:
Date: 20 Dec 97 - 04:45 PM

Well, thanks so far for the tips, but I'm afraid I can't get any of the local musicians to play Lord of the Dance, for two reasons. The only local mucisians I know, don't play or know that kind of music, and two, English songs aren't much known, and this being Holland (the dutch) they don't have many english music books (hell, I only know one shop that has ANY books, most without text, only with notes!

Thanks again

Selene

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rosebrook
Date: 20 Dec 97 - 06:14 PM

Joe,

I'm going to take a stab at this and hope that you can follow me. I'm going to show you one really elementary thing that, if you understand, you can apply to all songs.

You mentioned playing in the key of "G", so that's what I'll use for this illustration.

In the key of "G", your scale (do, re, mi, fa, etc.) is G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G. I'm going to assume that you're with me so far.

For REALLY easy songs, USUALLY (I'm out on a climb here...) the chords you will use in the key of "G" are your G major chord, your C major chord, and your D major chord. These three chords coorespond in your scale as the 1st (G major or do -- as in do, re, mi -- the first note in the G scale), your 4th (C major or fa -- the 4th note in the scale), and your 5th (D major or sol -- the 5th note in the scale). 1st, 4th, and 5th; or I, IV, and V.

Recapping: key of "G"....a really easy song will use the following three chords: G major, C major and D major. Why? Because typically, a song will utilize the 1st, 4th and 5th chords of the scale. (NOT ALWAYS!)

How do we use them, though? How do we know when to change and to which chord at what time? Good questions, Joe! There are no fixed rules, but there are patterns that you will see repeatedly. Let's take the song "Pack Up Your Sorrows" by Richard Farina (hopefully you know!!)

We can play this in the key of G and use our 3 friendly chords G, C, and D to play the whole song. Here's how:

G -- No use crying C -- Talkin' to a stranger G -- Namin' the sorrows you've D -- seen

G -- Too many sad times, C -- too many bad times G -- nobody D -- knows what you G -- mean

This pattern is very common. If the key of G is too high or low and you want to use another key, maybe C let's say, just find your 1st, 4th, and 5th chords (I, IV, and V): in the key of C that would be C major, F major and G major.

That's enough for now. Please let me know if this makes sense to you, and I'm sure lots of other people here can chime in with hints and tips to make it all make sense!!

Rosebrook

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Dec 97 - 10:49 PM

So far, I follow you quite well, Rosebrook. Now, if I play a "G" chord for the four beats in a measure, what notes can the melody have within that measure, so that they go along with that "G" chord?

Next Question: Can somebody talk Selene and me through the chords for "Simple Gifts"??
Thanks for your help, Rosebrook. Selene, the tune for "Simple Gifts" is in the database. Let us know if you have problems accessing it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Richard Wright
Date: 21 Dec 97 - 03:39 PM

Joe: If you are trying out the autoharp check out [e-mail] It is a bit anal but useful.

Richard

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: hkymom35
Date: 21 Dec 97 - 04:23 PM

Alises Resturant by Arloe Guthrey

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Selene
Date: 21 Dec 97 - 04:49 PM

Hi guys

Thanks all for your help. I sat twiddeling last night, and really enjoyed myself. Rosebrook, thank you ever so much for your explanation, I think I understand things a bit better now. (but sorry, I didn't know the song, the only pack up your troubles I knew was the version my granpa sung :pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile boy that's the style, what's the use of worrying, it never was worth while, etc. ) Joe, good idea, anybody willing??? I've managed to get that tune to play, unfortunatly, on my dad's machine, which is in his office, and that's in the loft, so my guitar won't fit really. Now, I wonder if I can talk my dad out of a soundblaster for christmas....

Thanks again, nice to know there are some helpfull characters in this world. I was beginning to wonder

Selene [e-mail]

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rastrelnikov
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 01:05 AM

Chords for Simple Gifts (from Rise Up Singing):

D - / A - / D - / A GD // DA D / - A / D - / A GD

Where - means repeat last chord for one more measure / means next line of song // means break in song (eg change to chorus) chords squeezed together means measure has more than one chord (eg GD means half a measure of G, half a measure of D)

(GUESSing, I'd say measures in first verse begin at capitalized words below, chord change in mid measure on light in de*Light, *True and *Right)

tis the Gift to be simple tis the Gift to be free tis the Gift to come down where we Ought to be and When we find ourselves in the Place just right twill Be in the valley of Love and de*Light When *True Simplicity is gained to Bow and to bend we Shan't be ashamed to Turn, turn will be Our delight til by Turning, turning we Come 'round *Right

And just to show that there's more than one set of chords for any song, RUS has a very slightly different set for Lord of the Dance:

D - / A - / D - / A GD // D - / - A / D - / A GD

You can also change the song into an easier key for you to sing in by using a capo to raise the key higher, or getting a pencil and paper and figuring out the chords in a different key. G for example: G - / D - / G - / D CG // G - / - D / G - / D CG It may seem that this method of chord notation isn't as good as putting the chords over the words, but in fact once you get used to it, it's WAY easier. For me, it keeps the melody more seperate in my head. Rise Up Singing uses the notation for about 1200 songs -- you'd probably know at least 10% of the songs -- and the book only costs about US$18. Their teaching tapes for all 1200 songs are now available but are pretty expensive.

Now...the message I tried to send earlier...

Darn. By the time I'd finished writing this, I was shut out of mudcat (pout).

I took one year of instrumental music. It wasn't until years later, when I started on guitar that I found out what rhythm was, or that it occured to me that I should have been listening to my trombone instead of blindly sliding it to positions similar to those shown in the book. (I'm a little pissed off with my music teacher, eh?)

It sounds like you already know the most basic idea: the melody and accompaniment are separate beasts. Until you've been playing for a long, long time, it's best to just keep a steady ryhthm on the accompaniment as your voice slides where it will through the melody.

G is made of G B D notes. What notes can be in the melody while playing a G chord? ANY notes that sound good to you. If you try to pick out the melody of a song, you'll find that while the suggested chord is G, many of the melody notes are G B or D, but most probably, those WON'T be the only notes.

Regarding chords, I don't think there IS any trick.

Usually, many different sets of chords are available for each melody. Some sets of chords sound better than others. Many only sound better to SOME people. Some people even prefer certain chords because of the exact notes which are emphasized when playing that chord on a particular instrument. (One woman I know thinks C7 on a guitar is an awful 7th chord.) Very complex sets of chords usually have to be memorized. However, like series of chess moves which are much easier to memorize if you've played chess a lot, sets of chords get easier to memorize as you play chords a lot. (One odd thing I've noticed too: I can memorize lyrics quickly and chords slowly. But I usually forget the lyrics first!) For simple songs though...

I just memorized chords or had a song-sheet in front of me for at least a three years. At some point I realized I just "knew" when to change for two chord songs. After seven and a half years, I still make occasional mistakes with three chord songs. However, now I'm sometimes able to make my way through five chord (or more) songs without any conscious thought about what chords to play. I'm especially good at fudging my way through songs in certain keys. Songs in G for example, often use G, C, D, sometimes Bm, Am, occasionally Em, D7... and somehow, my brain has figured out how to jump around between these chords. Try a song in E though, and my fingers may freeze if there are more than E, A and B7 are needed. Theory is all fine and dandy for figuring out chords with pencil and paper in hand, but figuring them out on the fly? Fudging chords to songs -- I think it all comes down to talent and practice, practice, practice.

A final note about chords: they mess up a lot of nice harmonies that are available when singing a capella. (I was glad to hear this confirmed by the pro's on two of the Rise Up Singing teaching tapes.) Listen to the Christmas carols you hear this week and try to figure out: were the best ones accompanied or unaccompanied. I heard the BEST ever version of Silent Night I've ever taken part in. Twenty or so voices. And no damn instruments. And what a fantastic group feeling.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 01:44 AM

Rastrelnikov, what you said was really helpful. There's got to be SOME relationship between chords and melody, though - otherwise, how come some chords fit and some don't? My memory is shot, so I have to learn things by understanding WHY they work that way, instead of learning by rote memorization.
Also, I wonder why it is that when I sing a new song, I can usually guess what note is going to be next, even though I don't read music very well. There must be some notes that follow each other well, and some that don't. I guess what I'm asking about is what's called the "intervals" between notes. What's the secret?
I'm trying to get the theory right on chords, too. I think the two types of chords I'm familiar with are called "Dominant" chords. If I'm correct, a Dominant Major chord is do-mi-so-do, or 1-3-5-1 (in Roman numerals). And I think a Dominant Seventh chord, which sounds just a little "off" is do-mi-so-ti, or 1-3-5-7. Folk songs often use chords I and IV, and the seventh of V. The usual pattern for simple folk songs would be I, IV, V, I. Usually, you wouldn't end a song on a seventh chord because it sounds unfinished or incomplete, or "unresolved." So, you finish it off by going back to a dominant major chord, usually I. Am I right so far?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: dani
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 09:45 AM

Joe, you make feel a little less a fool. I love music so much and understand so little about the HOWS of it, that sometimes I get very frustrated. But one thing that has helped is Pete Seeger's explanations of miscellaneous things in his "How to play the 5 string Banjo". I've not devoted the time to actually KNOWING it all, but his explanations are the only ones that ever made sense to me. Worth a look!

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rastrelnikov
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 11:30 AM

Well Joe, the reasons I don't hold with memorization through understanding are two: I don't understand chords; and I once misspent some time memorizing lyrics. It's pretty quick for me to memorize lyrics to the point where I can write them down again without mistakes. Getting that far might help a LITTLE in performing songs, especially for the first lines of stanzas but for the rest of the song, for ME, I've got to know the lyrics WITHOUT any reasoning or mental tricks to be able to sing them well. This means practice, practice, practice. I think too, that chord changes are a harder to learn on the autoharp. On the guitar, your fingers can learn how to jump from G to C to D chords, and if you want to do a song in G# or A you just capo 1 or capo 2 and your fingers still know where to go. On autoharp, I think your fingers would have three completely different things to know the keys of G, G#, and A. But at least the actual fingering of the chords is easier :)

Yes, there are common patterns in music. Whenever I don't think I'll be bothering anyone, I try to sing along every song, including the ones I've never heard before. It amazes me how often I can guess the words, let alone the notes. I think if you can guess the melodies to songs, sooner or later you will be able to guess at chords that would fit. They may not be the "right" chords though. Remember that even for a beatles song there are usually the arrangements they played, the simpler arrangements that got published, the easy guitar chords version, and the beginners guitar chord version, and several souped up jazz chord versions that are harder than anything the beatles ever recorded.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 11:41 AM

As i start to type this, I'm not sure I'll even submit it, explaining music theory, well.. you can get whole college degrees on this stuff, you know? Rastrelnikov is right about there not being any rules on what melody notes can go with a chord, but there is common practice, the melody's crucial points will probably be found in the chord or as a leading tone pulling you out of that chord. You will also find passing tones and neighboring tones, between chord notes. If you removed the passing and neighboring tones, you could most generally still recognize the tune, or a least it would sound familiar, just sparse. I'm gonna recap some of what Rosebrook said here, if you bear with me it might be worthwhile. Look at the C major scale...

C d e F G a b C

Give these notes numerical values (roman) they are...

I ii iii IV V vi vii I

The first note is called the tonic. It's your key center. the fifth degree is called the dominant. Next to the tonic it is the single most important note in defining the key. You can try this out. Instead of playing chords, play single notes as accompaniment. You can play back and forth from the C to the G and sing along with it like a bass line.

The fourth degree is called the subdominant, 'cuz it's next in strength when it come to defining the key. Keep playing single notes instead of chords and you'll hear this stuff take shape. Now when you're trying to figure the chords to a song you can try experimenting with just these notes. If G fits, try the G chord.

You might have noticed the large & small case letters, That's because the I, IV & V all form major chords. the ii, iii vi are all minor. The vii is the odd man out, the notes allotted to him out of the scale give him a diminished chord. We don't want to go into that.

Joe, we can speak of a dominant interval, that is a fifth, but when we speak of a chord, we use the expression dominant seventh to distinguish between two kinds of major seventh chords. If you add the seventh to a minor chord, you have a minor seventh chord. But when you add a seventh to a major chord we don't call it a major seventh because you can still raise the seventh note a half step, we call it a dominant seventh chord. If you raise that seventh note, then you call it a major seventh chord.

Whole books are written on scales and intervals, so I wanna bail out now, but I have to add this. If you play the C major scale you will notice that the gap between e & F, and the gap between b & C is a half step, all the others are whole steps. This is what all the sharps and flats are about, if your tonic ( the key ) is going to be a note other than C, you have to adjust all those notes so that the half steps fall in the same place on the scale, that is between iii & IV, and between vii & I. If you change the position of whole and half steps in a scale, then you get into minor scales and Modes and such, but I'm outta here before this gets any worse.

Oh, except for one more thing, what Rastrelnikov said about chords sometimes interfering with a cappella harmonies, that's because a lot of great songs aren't made up out of the major & minor scales, (they're modal), so major and minor (diatonic) harmonies don't fit.

Apologies to D. Duryea & Dani..

Frank I.T.S.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 11:48 AM

I'm in about the same boat as Joe, Selene, Dani, and all - a little formal training and the rest trying to figure it out on my own. I spent years learning country blues songs from transcriptions and learned to play a lot of songs on the guitar but not how to play the guitar, if you take my meaning. What success I have had with learning accompanyment is like this: I pick up my guitar or banjo, depending on what I want to play it on, and try to pick out just the melody on the strings, in a key that is comfortable for me to sing in. Once I can play the melody a little, I look at where my fingers are during a phrase of the music and think about what chords have those notes in them. Then I play the chords while singing the melody and see if it sounds okay. I know the secret of I, IV, V, but little else guides me on what chords to choose. I also just play the chords in rhythm and see if I can more or less hear the melody in the notes of the chords. Then if I get really stuck, I turn to my wife who got a Batchelor's degree in music and ask for help. She has talked about how to "spell" chords but never elaborated much on it, but that's a way of knowing what chords will go with what notes. That's probably the algorithm ABCMus uses.

Sometimes once I have a chord progression down for a song, I will go on and try to develop a fingerpicking arrangement, built around the chord positions, which emphasizes the melody notes of the chord.

I'm not a great musician, but I try hard. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 02:53 PM

Hey, Frank, keep it up! I think I'm starting to learn something. Anybody got any easy pointers on how to sing harmony? Good old Sister John Bosco taught us the harmony on some songs in fifth grade and I still remember those, but I'm incapable of that sort of rote memorization now. I can sing melody more-or-less automatically, and now I want to learn how to harmonize on the fly.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Selene
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 03:18 PM

Hi all

Thank's all for such detailed explanations. Would you believe I've had NO music training at all, so it's a great help? I had music for a year, but the teacher thought I was no good, so she always told others to play, and I'd get to write out the notes on a big piece of paper for them all to see, or something like that. Then again, I didn't push. I hated her. So, I've been internetting, trying to learn what I should have when I was twelve! I have however, found I can tell when a melody is about to dip,or rise, or what the words are half the time, as long as it is in English, not in Dutch (weird, eh?) But that could have to do with the way some things are sung. We can all predict that if a song starts out about a loved one, the loved one will be lost! (well, nine times out of ten). Come to think of it, my music teacher must have been right, every time I've sung anything people tell me I can't carry a tune - But I still love all this.

Thanks

Selene

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rosebrook
Date: 22 Dec 97 - 06:38 PM

How to harmonize on the fly.....Hmmmmm...that's a real good one, Joe. There's your standard harmony that is a 3rd and/or a 5th above the melody, but that gets old and boring after awhile. I forget who in this thread said it previously, but I echo their words, "practice, practice, practice."

For me, finding a harmony includes several aspects: deciding if it should it mirror the melody note for note, word for word and beat for beat, figure out where the song and my vocal range coincide, (will I be using my high lilty soprano voice or is this song more suited for my gruff shanty-woman-ish voice) and then just TRYING different things with my voice and seeing what I like. I think it's a process, an evolution, and I think it gets better and easier the more time and effort you apply. For me, it's a challenging and rewarding undertaking...I'm not good at it, and my voice isn't lovely, but I sure enjoy trying to harmonize.

Rosebrook

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rastrelnikov
Date: 23 Dec 97 - 02:27 AM

If you want to learn harmonies, check to see if there's a sacred harp shape note group in your area. The original shape note singers used to go into villages in the South in the States in the early 1800's? and spend about thirty days there teaching people to read their music. Then they'd sell 'em their books, I guess, and move on. Easiest way I've yet seen to begin to learn to read music and to practice and hear harmonies. Best harmonies too. ...easiest way, but still too tough, and too little personal release for me right now. Maybe I'll try again next year.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rastrelnikov
Date: 23 Dec 97 - 02:39 AM

Whoops! I forgot....

i just found the melody posted to lord of the dance (same as simple gifts). "yet another digital tradition page" is a near mirror of digital tradition. The big difference is that it has lots of images of melodies as graphic image files.

Try using cut and paste copy the following address and look at: http://underground.liquid.com/cgi-bin/dtrad/lookup?ti=SIMPLEGF&tt=LORDANCE

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Selene
Date: 23 Dec 97 - 06:39 PM

Hi all

Rastrelnikov, sometimes I just wish I lived in the states! I seem to be missing out on a lot. Thanks for that new page address!

Selene

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 23 Dec 97 - 08:10 PM

About harmonies - I suspect that different approaches will suit different people. My theory has improved over the years, but by and large I still rely upon my ears (mostly).

(1) Start simple with well known tunes with only two or three chords, that people usually sing harmonies to. I found that a Major key (e.g. A) is easier to pick up than a Minor key (e.g. A Minor/Am) There is nothing quite like a come all ye gathering to listen to other people singing harmony, but some records and CD's have harmonies that are quite clear - it may help to turn either stereo speaker right down. And SING, SING, SING - there is no substitute for actually doing it. The examples which spring to mind are Amazing Grace, most bluegrass songs, Lizzie Lindsay, New York Girls. Fellow Mudcatters could suggest many more.

(2) There are MIDI sites with mainly Celtic songs which include one or more harmony tracks along with melody and rhythm. With a freeware MIDI player such as Player Midi Art you can easily change the volune of each track, so that you can easily hear the harmony track - and sing along. Not as much fun as doing it with other people (no double entendre intended) but just another avenue if the right people aren't available.

(3) The variant of (2) is to print the music out from the MIDI file using any of the shareware packages around, and pick out the notes on your favourite instrument - or get a friend around to do it for you.

In reality harmony is like sex. If you enjoy studying and observing it (or ignoring it) that's fine. But practice lots with others and it really comes alive.

Regards and Christmas Greetings John

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: rastrelnikov
Date: 24 Dec 97 - 04:25 AM

Selene, I thought YOU probably lived in the States. Did I give the impression that I lived in the States? No, somehow shape note singing has found its way to the frozen north, the land that was lucky enough to be treated with kid gloves by Britain because the US constitution said we could join up with them any ole time. I wonder if we ever will. I mean, we've already got shape note without joining...

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 24 Dec 97 - 09:03 AM

Rastrelnikov - Thanks so much for posting that DigiTrad Mirror site. NOw I have somewhere to go if all I want to do is search the database, and I love having the tunes in musical notation.

On harmony - having an alto voice means I sing a LOT of harmony. Thirds and fifths are a good place to start and something to fall back on if the melody is too complicated for anything else. And, there are always times when you want the melody to be so dominant that simple harmony is all you want. Sometimes I find I have the most fun with harmony when I'm singing a counter-melody. Once you learn a melody you can experiment with singing the words to a slightly different tune and/or rhythm, and then try singing that counter-melody against the origianl melody to see how they match up, making adjustments as you identify places where the two just don't work together. If I didn't have to work for a living I'd spend my life doing that....

Selene, thanks for starting this thread. I've loved learning the basics of music theory.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From:
Date: 25 Dec 97 - 02:53 PM

Hi all

Rastrelnikov, I've made a new Year's resolution never to try and guess where anybody on internet comes from anymore. Ever. Some of the people wiht the best english are foreign, but I've seen english and americans that just can't spell (or type?) And with your surname, well the only thing I thought was that you probably weren't dutch (is it even a surname-don't have to answer that one!) even though....

But still, thanks all, this is proving very fun and educational (see, learning can be fun!) Susan-Marie, you're welcome, I'll try to continue on this track ;-)

Oh, and that digital traditions page, it's really good! I'm finding verses to songs I didn't even know existed. (two new ones of Clementine, and one one I knew existed, but everybody else thought I'd made up!) Cheers, happy Christmas and New year!

Selene

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Dec 97 - 01:12 AM

Selene, we gotta teach you - when you post a message, make sure you hit the "submit message" button only once, and then wait until you get back to the forum menu. If you go fooling with the "Back" and "Refresh" buttons, we get to see your pearls of wisdom in triplicate.
As for the Digital Tradition, that's us - the other site is just a mirror. We are the Mother Site, provided by Max as a home for the Digital Tradition Folk Song Database, a collection of lyrics for some 6,500 songs, with tunes for many. You can search for songs in the upper-right corner of most pages here, or click on the "Mudcat" logo on the top of the page and get to the main menu, which will allow you to browse through the titles - OR you can download the entire database onto your own computer.
This forum, wonderful though it may be, is secondary to The Database.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From:
Date: 26 Dec 97 - 10:10 PM

I have just been catching up on this thread after my usual Xmas break. Not that I take a holiday, but this is the time when the network server I use goes down for its annual maintanence.

I think this has got to be one of the most interesting threads of the year!

Let me add one thing. Jimmie Rodgers tends to use very straightforward broken chords as his accompanyment. He doesn't do much melody picking, but just plays the chords If you like his music, he would be a good one to study

He did some things with groups which have more complex harmony, so listen to the songs he does with just guitar.

Happy Xmas to all

Murray

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Bruce Johnson
Date: 29 Dec 97 - 06:49 PM

One piece of advice: Be careful not to confuse notes and chords with each other.

What I mean is that when we try to explain a chord, we say that a major chord is made up of a 1-3-5 triad (set of three notes). In the key of C, this would be the notes C-E-G, or in the key of G it would be the notes G-B-D. So to build a "C" chord, we would find a fingering that gives us at least one of each note C, E and G, and no other notes sounded.

When we start to talk about accompaniment, we start to use the same letters and numbers, but we are talking about CHORDS now, not notes. This is where it gets confusing, because now we start to stress 1 and 4 and 5, where a minute ago, we were talking about 1 and 3 and 5. So as a help to avoid confusion, we generally use the Roman numerals when we talk about the chords. The most important chords for simple folk songs in a given key will be I and IV and V, followed closely by VI minor, II minor, and III minor in that order. So if you are sitting around a campfire and someone says they are going to do a song, and it is in the key of G, you know right away that the main chords are likely to be G, C, and D (or D7), with Em, Am, and Bm also in the mix. In the key of D, the same song would use D, G, and A (or A7), with Bm, Em, and F#m thrown in.

So to figure out a set of chords for a song that you know how to sing, pick a key in which you know the set of 6 (or 7) chords, and start with the "I" (same name as the key) chord. Play that chord until you hear the melody require a new chord, and then try either the IV or the V chord and listen for a fit. If you find the right chord, play that until once again the melody demands a change. If no fit, try each of your 3 minor chords. Etc., etc. You find the chord from among the 6 (or 7) that sounds right to your ear. Hence the name, playing by ear.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 97 - 08:10 PM

to all....I know a dozen people who pretty well understand all of the tune/chord/harmony stuff, and would be happy to teach me...but I don't seem to be able to get it! I'm not sure why...some sort of left/right brain thing I guess, but what I HAVE done is play the autoharp, like Joe says he is trying...the chords, especially on the 21 bar, are arranged in patterns, and if I start on bar 'x', and play certain patterns, I end up just fine..(as long as it is not too complex a progression..)and generally, I can hear when it sounds 'right'.Pretty soon, one knows the patterns to a number of songs, and it gets easier to do the next one! And I can do the common keys , and a few of the slightly less common...(the Autoharp will not do them all...don't even consider B). So, as one pushes bars and finds the right SOUNDS, one can then read the name on the bar and gradually memorize combinations that work....I realize that this is no real substitute for understanding theory, but it has gotten me thru a lot in 30 years..

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Selene
Date: 30 Dec 97 - 05:49 PM

Oops? I'll try not to do that again! And i think a lot of people have more wisdom in there pearls than my double/triple/quadruple printed messages together- I'm learning a heap here!

Selene

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Dec 97 - 08:50 PM

SINGLE-click, that button, Selene!!! ;)

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 31 Dec 97 - 11:27 AM

I have really enjoyed this thread and now I need one more piece of information: how do I figure out what key I sing songs in? In other words, if I pick a good starting note for my voice range, how do I figure out what key to tell the band to play in (if I had a band that is, which I don't, but I can dream)? The only way I can figure is to go to the piano and write down the notes I'm using and then try to match them to the set of notes in various keys. IS that it, or is there an easier way? Will this way even work - what about music where there are sharps or flats that aren't part of the key signature? Sigh. I really should have paid attention in high school music classes....

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Jon W.
Date: 31 Dec 97 - 11:41 AM

Susan-Marie,

Usually the last note of the song, particularly uncomplicated traditional songs, is the key of the song. This is called "resolving" the music. This is a guideline, not a hard and fast rule. The piano method you describe is good also.

Sharps and flats not part of the key signature are called accidentals. If a note is consistently sharp or flat, that should be considered in the key signature. If it's only occasionally sharp or flat but mostly natural, it's an accidental. Of course a natural can be an accidental also, if the note is sharp or flat in the key signature. Complicated enough?

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 31 Dec 97 - 02:34 PM

Thanks, Jon, that bit about the last note of the song was exactly the kind of rule-of-thumb I was looking for. I know it won't always work but it's a good place to start.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Country Bob
Date: 31 Dec 97 - 06:20 PM

Susan-Marie & Jon beat me to it - when I'm trying to work out accompaniment for a song, I try to "ear" the last note of the song, use that note for the root I chord, and try it from there. If the song ends on a note that sounds like "A", I start with an "A" chord and see if I can pick the melody in the "A" position. Usually I can get several melody notes, then I miss a note, so I'll try the notes of the IV (D) or the V (E). Occasionally I have to use the IIminor. Most of the time it works - of course, I usually am concerned with folk, bluegrass or Irish songs. But after all, they're the ones I really love. To follow up on Bill D's comment about the layout of a 21 bar autorharp - I don't know anything about autoharp, but a good way to learn folk keys and progressions is the hammered dulcimer - its notes are arranged in kind of a "circle of changes" where the keys progress right through each other. Woody Guthrie once said he tried to only use 2 chords, that anything more was just showing off. He did admit to throwing in an extra chord once in a while, just to impress the ladies in the crowd... Then there are those horn players; I pretend to know nothing about flatted scales. String players are sharp!

Country Bob

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From:
Date: 10 Mar 98 - 04:16 AM

I started a thread to get information to help me choose my first guitar. Sombody sent me to OLGA. There is a very good set of guitar lessons there which go into structural aspects.

It is oriented towards the blues. It gives the standard progressions of chords in each of the twelve bars and discusses variations.

If you want to pursue it go to:

http://www.olga.net/index3.html#sites

and choose a mirror site near you. Then go to

resources/lessons/guitar_lessons

at that site.

It is worth looking at.

Since I have opened up the thread again, I will add my two cents into the the last few postings.

If a tune doesn't end in the key note, then you will here it. It will sound like it hasn't ended properly. Just add the notes needed to end it and the last one will be the key.

After all, that is what the key is, where the tune comes to rest. With all the different modes around. The key of C can have several signatures, for example.

Murray

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Slant
Date: 12 Mar 98 - 01:14 PM

WOW!! I'm thanking all who took part in this thread. This was a fundamental music lesson to end all. It is the most informative thread on music harmony and chord formation I've seen. I think it had to do with the air of informality and the eagerness of all to share knowledge and experience - which is another face of the folk tradition.

So thanks to all answerers and questioners..

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Sharon
Date: 12 Mar 98 - 04:31 PM

Re: singing harmony - I went to a workshop with Maddie McNeil last summer. A real easy way to begin. If you're in key of C - song is beginning with C chord - vocally go to the 5th or "so", You can pretty much sing the whole song, only moving up or down a note, as it sounds good. Try it. It really works

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Sharon
Date: 12 Mar 98 - 04:33 PM

Sorry, I left out part of what I started to say - If you're in C, you jump to the 5th, which would be G. but the theory works in any key.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Gloria Tham
Date: 13 Mar 98 - 12:40 AM

Hi I'm new to this thread. Really interesting things you all are discussing about chords and all those stuff. Selene, perhaps you shouldn't be grumbling about where you're living in. Guess which country I live in? The only instrument that is easily available (to learn,buy..whatever) is the piano and perhaps the guitar only

About playing by ear, I agree with you all that it takes a lot of practice. I picked it up sort of suddenly because song sheets are messy and they fly all over the place. Over here we have to have fans on. But it's nice to see so many suggestions here on how to choose correct chords..

Sharon, sorry but I don't quite catch what you're trying to say. I do harmony too cos' I teach a youth choir.

Gloria

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Sharon
Date: 13 Mar 98 - 05:15 PM

The concept was sort of new to me too, harmony has always come naturally to me. But to folk new to singing harmony, it seemed to make sense. In a song written in C. you can pretty much sing a G (with C chord or G chord) You might drop down to an F vocally (with G7 chord) or up to an A vocally (with the F chord) This was given only as a starting place for a person whe has never known how to sing harmony.

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: BAZ
Date: 13 Mar 98 - 06:54 PM

To those who have been playing a guitar for a number of years the use of a Capo and the results seem obvious but I often get people who are in the early stages say to me 'I can't play that song I haven't learnt those chords yet.' When you say something like 'put a capo on and play in D then' you get a blank look back. So I thought if there is anybody out there in this situation the following might be useful. Forgive me if I'm teaching too many grandmothers to suck eggs!

C D E F G A B Open
----------------------------------
C# Eb F F# Ab Bb C Capo 1st fret
----------------------------------
D E F# G A B C# Capo 2nd fret
----------------------------------
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Capo 3rd fret
----------------------------------
E F# Ab A B C# Eb Capo 4th fret
----------------------------------
F G A Bb C D E Capo 5th fret
----------------------------------
And so on.
The way you would use this for instance is: if the tune was in the key of F and you needed the chords F Bb C7 and Dm
but could only play in the key of C, put a capo on the 5th fret and play C F G7and Am.
ie. if you look at the open fret and find C count 5 frets up and you get F. Likewise with the rest of the chords. You could
put the capo on the 3rd fret and play D G A7 and Bm and still get F Bb C7 and Dm.

I hope this makes it easier for somebody out there. Remember it's not only new players that need capo's. Iv'e got a friend who likes to sing Whiskey in the Jar in Eb. Have you ever tried playing the chords with a melody line running through in this key? Not me, capo on 3 play in C and it's a piece of cake.

Regards
Baz

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: BAZ
Date: 13 Mar 98 - 06:57 PM

I don't know what happened to that. When I typed it in everything was neatly lined up one above the other in the chord/fret listing. Still you may still get the gist of it.
Baz

Subject: RE: the notes or chords to a song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 98 - 08:46 PM

Well, Baz, you could use the "pre" command (in angle brackets), and it would look like what's below, but I don't think that's what you want, either.
-Joe Offer-

To those who have been playing a guitar for a number of years the use of a Capo and the results seem obvious but I often get people who are in the early stages say to me 'I can't play that song I haven't learnt those chords yet.' When you say something like 'put a capo on and play in D then' you get a blank look back. So I thought if there is anybody out there in this situation the following might be useful. Forgive me if I'm teaching too many grandmothers to suck eggs!

  
  C      D     E     F     G      A     B  Open  
  ----------------------------------
  C#    Eb    F     F#   Ab    Bb   C     Capo 1st fret
  ----------------------------------
  D      E      F#   G    A      B     C#   Capo 2nd fret
  ----------------------------------
  Eb    F      G     Ab  Bb    C     D     Capo 3rd fret
  ----------------------------------
  E      F#    Ab   A    B      C#   Eb    Capo 4th fret
  ----------------------------------
  F      G      A    Bb  C       D     E     Capo 5th fret
  ----------------------------------

And so on.
The way you would use this for instance is: if the tune was in the key of F and you needed the chords F Bb C7 and Dm
but could only play in the key of C, put a capo on the 5th fret and play C F G7and Am.
ie. if you look at the open fret and find C count 5 frets up and you get F. Likewise with the rest of the chords. You could
put the capo on the 3rd fret and play D G A7 and Bm and still get F Bb C7 and Dm.

I hope this makes it easier for somebody out there. Remember it's not only new players that need capo's. Iv'e got a friend who likes to sing Whiskey in the Jar in Eb. Have you ever tried playing the chords with a melody line running through in this key? Not me, capo on 3 play in C and it's a piece of cake.

Regards
Baz