Lori Berenson gets 20 years!

Subject: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:06 AM

Lori Berenson, was retried in Peru, and no big suprise the "court" found her guilty of terrorism and gave her 20 years in prison. For those who do not know about her case, this innocent young lady has spent years in jail for a crime she did not commit, and there is no end in sight to her torment.
All the best, all, Larry

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:08 PM

Inobu - This is a shock. The last I read, the State Dept. was negotiating her release. It was in the Times a few weeks back, I think. What on earth happened?

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:18 PM

As I recall her biggest crime ( the reason she was most likely found guilty) was her refusal to play the game by their rules - an uppity woman who had to be put in her place.

One of the articles on her chance for release:

Peru opens door to pardon or amnesty for American leftist The Washington Times -- 26 February 2001 by Natalia Mielczarek

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American leftist Lori Berenson could be eligible for an amnesty or pardon even if she is convicted at her second trial on terrorism charges early next month, Peru's justice minister said in Washington.

Diego Garcia Sayan told reporters during a visit late last week that his government would not interfere in the retrial of Miss Berenson, who has been jailed in Peru since 1996 on charges of collaborating with Tupac Amaru guerrillas.

But, he said, even if she is convicted, there are ways in which she might be eligible to regain her freedom.

She could be granted amnesty, but only if a request is initiated by the Peruvian Congress, the minister said. She also could be granted a pardon by the president, but that would happen only after a conviction.

Miss Berenson's case "can and should be dealt with in courts, not by the executive power in Peru or any other democratic country," he said.

Mr. Garcia acknowledged that the parents of Miss Berenson, a New York native, had grown impatient with the slow progress in the case of their daughter but denied there had been any effort by the government to delay the proceedings.

Miss Berenson was sentenced to life in prison in 1996 by a military court on charges that she had worked with the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement in a plot to take over the Peruvian Congress.

After years of pressure from the United States, a military court overturned her conviction in August and granted a new trial to be held in a civilian court. Superior Court Prosecutor Walter Julian Vivas formally asked last week for the civilian court to give her a 20-year prison term.

Mr. Garcia defended Peru's handling of the case, pointing out that it was not included in a recent list of human rights violations prepared in cooperation with the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.

Mr. Garcia and the commission signed an agreement in Washington on Thursday that identified 258 cases of human rights violations in Peru. About half of them are expected to be resolved, the minister said.

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Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 12:33 PM

Shades of Leonard Peltier.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Jeep man
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:10 PM

I know nothing of this case. How are you so sure Miss Berenson is innocent? Not taking sides, just like to know. Jeep

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:14 PM

Do a search on Google for a history of the case dating back to 1996. Her first conviction by a military trial was overturned. There is at least an element of teaching America and Americans a lesson.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:27 PM

Berenson's Parents Decry Verdict

Updated: Thu, Jun 21 9:50 AM EDT

By BILL CORMIER, Associated Press Writer

LIMA, Peru (AP) - The parents of Lori Berenson denounced Peru's courts Thursday after their daughter, jailed in an Andean prison for five years, was convicted in a civilian retrial of collaborating with leftist guerrillas and sentenced to 20 years.

Peru touted the public trial of the 31-year-old New York native as an example of how its justice system has improved after years of authoritarian rule. But Mark and Rhoda Berenson said the verdict showed the courts were still as politicized as ever.

"I was expecting it because I have a strong feeling that nothing has changed in Peru with respect to the justice system that's a total sham," Mark Berenson said from Lima, speaking to ABC's Good Morning American on Thursday.

With the new sentence, Lori Berenson is to be released in November 2015 - counting time served - then expelled from Peru.

The former Massachusetts Institute of Technology student stood for nearly four hours Wednesday evening as the sentence was read in the drab prison courtroom. She sat only briefly, as the three magistrates said they found "convincing evidence" she had helped the deadly Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement, or MRTA, in a thwarted plot to seize Peru's Congress in 1995.

Her father, restrained by an American rabbi after the verdict, shouted, "No justice! No justice!"

Berenson was sentenced to life in prison in 1996 by a secret military tribunal on charges of treason. She was tried as a rebel leader.

After years of pressure from the United States, Peru's top military court overturned her conviction in August, allowing the new civilian trial on a lesser charge of "terrorist collaboration."

"I consider this an unjust sentence and I am innocent of the charges against me," said Berenson, asking that the sentence be struck down when lead magistrate Marcos Ibazeta gave her a chance to respond.

Earlier, in her closing statement, Berenson declared, "I am not a terrorist. I condemn terrorism." She also denied being a member or collaborator of the rebel group.

Peru hoped the Berenson retrial would show how its justice system has improved since the ouster in November of President Alberto Fujimori, who declared emergency rule in the early 19990 and set up the tough military courts in his drive against the then-powerful leftist guerrillas.

Fujimori's suppression of the rebels sealed his popularity during his 10-year rule, and the insurgencies remain a painful memory for many Peruvians, who had little sympathy for Berenson.

Rhoda Berenson said the three judge panel had convicted her daughter in the non-jury retrial to show its toughness against terrorism.

"The popular thing to do, even in this new democracy, is to be very, very strong against terrorism. The Peruvian people don't care, to a certain extent, if innocent people are imprisoned, as long as they feel safe," she said.

"This country, unfortunately, while it is an emerging democracy, has no way of implementing fairness and justice to people," Mark Berenson said.

The Tupac Amaru took up arms in 1984, at a time when Peru was besieged by near-daily car bombings, assassinations and violence. Named for an Inca ruler who fought Spanish colonists in the 1730s, it has been blamed for about 200 deaths. It gained international attention for its four-month hostage siege at the Japanese ambassador's residence in Lima in 1997.

The prosecution - which had sought the maximum 20-year sentence - had said that Berenson aided the Tupac Amaru by renting a house that served as their hide-out and posing as a journalist to enter Congress to gather intelligence with a top rebel commander's wife. She was arrested in November of 1995.

Berenson has acknowledged renting the house, but said she did not know her housemates were rebels. She came to Peru in late 1994, after working as a secretary to a rebel leader during peace talks that ended El Salvador's civil war in 1992.

"Everything leads to the conclusion that the accused ... was not a mere spectator. Nor was she distant from what was occurring around her in relation to the activities of the MRTA," the verdict said.

Justice Minister Diego Garcia Sayan said earlier this week that the government would respect the verdict and that Berenson would serve out any sentence in Peru, so for now a presidential pardon seems unlikely.

President-elect Alejandro Toledo, who takes office July 28, is to travel next week to the United States in search of economic aid. His spokesman said he had no immediate comment on the case, but it could come up during his stops in New York and Washington.

"We have an appeal, the game isn't over, and it's a game. We go to supreme court of Peru and then back to Organization of American States," Mark Berenson said.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 02:54 PM

The more cynical among us might think that there are a lot of political advantages to having this trial occur at this time--it makes it possible for Toledo to answer questions about her, on his upcoming visit, by pointing to the civil conviction. It also gives him a bargaining chip--but the more reasonable among us will chastise us for our "conspiracy theories" and point out that it is ridiculous to believe that anyone would ever arrest and convict an innocent American for financial or political advantage--especially in a place as noted for fairness and evenhandeness as Peru--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:14 PM

Ask anyone in prison and they'll all tell you the same thing...

"We're all innocent in here"

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:25 PM

uH, cLINTON....SOME OF THEM ARE.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:28 PM

Guilt by association, eh, Clinton? By this logic, of course, we must dismiss all claims of innocence as fraudulent, and by extension, I suppose, all accusations and convictions as just, even when evidence is lacking--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:29 PM

Well Clinton, Guilty of thought crimes, guilty of peacefully trying to help the poor resist poverty, is not guilty in my book.
Cheers to all, courage to Lori, freedom to the innocent here and there,
Larry

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:29 PM

Ya... ok... whatever...

Sorry... I'm just not THAT much of a conspiracy theorist...

What it boils down to is that this is the first time I've ever even heard of her, and quite frankly, I just can't possibly care any less....

Given that it is impossible to make any system function at 100% efficiency, I'd much rather live in a world that occasionally puts innocent people in jail, than a world with no jails at all...

Not that I'm agreeing that she's innocent...

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Justa Picker
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:31 PM

I'm sympathetic to her plight.
I also think that after a lot of diplomatic manoevering, she'll be back in the U.S. witin a year.

But, when reading the story on CNN, the thought did occur to me that did she really have no idea of who these people were that she was living with? It's a bit of a stretch for me to believe otherwise.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 03:43 PM

JP, I agree. And she was in the company of a rebel leader's wife while pretending to be a reporter/photographer. But, if I remember correctly, she was offered a ticket home if she agreed to apologize for her actions. Essentially, she gave them the finger. My problem is how do you go from a "slap on the wrist" offense to 20 years in jail? Among other things. For the record, I have always held that when visiting a foreign country, one has the responsibility to observe their laws or expect the consequences. Not sure what laws were broken here (She was tried as a rebel leader and that seems a stretch) and what consequences are just. I believe MTed has nailed it. Berenson will be used as a pawn in the political arena and will be home within a year.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Jeep man
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 04:50 PM

Would we be so concerned if she wasn't American? Jeep

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 05:49 PM

There are a lot of Americans(and other nationals) who are working in Central and South America for social, economic, and political justice, in a variety of settings (many of them, in association with religious missions and organizations, though this will surprise some of our hardcore religious skeptics, I am sure)--Periodically, they are harassed, arrested, raped, tortured, imprisoned, and on occasion, murdered for their efforts on behalf of the forgotten and oppressed.

The great irony is that, America's sphere of influence being what it is, generally, they are are at odds with governments who are supported and sponsored by our own government--One occasionally begins to think that the same State Department officials who demand justice for them targetted them to begin with--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 06:15 PM

Wanna see a sample of political expediency? Rent a video called BREAKER MORANT. It's an Australian film, and it is a keeper.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:32 AM

What was that amazing film with Sissy S. and Jack Lemmon about the massacres in Chile? Astonishing well done.

I've followed Lori's case for several years now. I suspect she WILL be back in the States before long.

People can only be pushed so far, and then they fight back.

Rick

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:35 AM

I wasn't there, so I don't know.
Either verdict is possible---and,
Why do "Americans" seem to have to "improve" whatever gov't exists?
How could she not know that munitions/materiels were stored in "her" house?
"Missionaries"??? Let's not go there.....
Peru is better than Sinapore or Turkey; so she'll probably come back to the US. Or Afgahanistan...
If she is willing to leave Peru......just why does she "love" it so much?
As a Mexican National pointed out to me once (in Mexico),
"United States? I am from the United States also, Los Estados Unidos de Mexico--and Mexico is in North AMERICA also--what makes YOU more American or from the United States than me?"

"America" seems to run from at least the Artic Circle to Tierra de Fuegos.......

(sorry, rant over, come get the soapbox)

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:55 AM

Conspiracy to commit a crime is an offence in many countries which carries a penalty almost as stiff as the actual crime. I think if she had done the same thing in most civilized countries and been caught she probably wouldn't have been treated much differently. There is no justification for aiding and abetting terrorism. Terrorism is not the same as revolution and it is not a game for rich spoiled children. It is not a "slap on the wrist" offence.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 08:44 AM

My dear dear Clinton:
Working in a small general litigation law firm, doing huge political cases, we often ran into people who were quiet unconcerned about the rights of other, having grown up comfortably in the accepted mainstream. Their apathy and careing ended the day a police officer cracked their head with as stick; arrested them for "biting him on his fist" (actually worked on such a case!); arrested them for crimes they did not commit; ignored the murder of a family member or friend; was arrested in another country; Well the list can go on an on, but be assured, a small number of us will be there and active when even you in your apathy falls out of the mainstream and finds yourself in hot water.
It does not take a belief in conspiracy theories to accept that NOONE is safe enough in most nations to believe that there is no chance they can be the innocent victem of their or another's government's policies or whims, just ask ex-Police Commissoner John Stalker.
Hope you don't need us and can stay happy and apathetic
Keep smiling
Your ol' pal, Larry

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 12:58 PM

"Missing" is the movie title, Rick--and, from what I understand, it was a fairly good account of the real story--If you liked that, you will also like another of Costa-Gavras' films, "State of Siege", concerning American covert activities in Uruguay, and the same revolutionary group mentioned above--

I am amazed at how readily some people jump up to defend repressive governments and police states--if you oppose the overthrow of oppressive governments, did you also oppose the overthrow of Allende?

The comment about everyone being Americans is an interesting point--I also believe that from Canada to Tierra del Fuego, we are all Americans--that is why I feel particular regret as to the horrible state of political and economic and social disaster that the government of the 50 United States has fostered in Central and South America--I think that we have an obligation to do what we can to bring social justice and economic stability to the region--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 01:53 PM

M,Ted Everyone not in a repressive government supports the overthrow of repressive governments. But I don't recognize terrorism as a legitimate means for that overthrow. For that matter, who gets to decide what is repressive? Timothy McVeigh thought his actions were an appropriate response against a repressive government. Assuming that he sincerely believed in what he was doing, would you defend his actions?

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM

That is indeed a cracking film, Kendall (Breaker Morant) - an absolutely blistering account of the way we Brits used to behave around the world. We've recently apologised for inventing concentration camps, and other atrocities in South Africa, by the way - about as useful as the Pope apologising for the Crusades. As a bonus for music-loving catters, Edward Woodward is in terrific singing voice. Powerful stuff, no question.

Clinton, with such limited horizons, you can't be expected to give a shite about anything beyond your own backyard. But let me just try to enlighten you on one curious, but true, little trait among prisoners.

Contrary to your facile assumption, they DON'T all say the same thing. If you visited some, you'd find that out. OVerwhelmingly the guilty soon admit they've been banged to rights, and get on with doing their time. In the prison community, with all the penalties that go with "denial," it's the best way to cope, And any who are slow to realise it soon have it pointed out by the old lags.

A few of course protest their innocence year after year, sacrificing all privileges, even including (in the UK, anyway) parole. Without exception, among the few I've met, the ones with this attitude have eventually had their convictions overturned. (This does now happen in the UK, thank God - unlike 20 years ago, when "we never make mistakes" was the prevailing theme.) No doubt there are exceptions, but in my experience it's only when they know they're innocent that they can find the stamina to keep on fighting.

Any system's going to make mistakes. That's not the crime in my book. But when people stop caring about the mistakes, or denying they happen, that's when civilised values have gone out of the window. Sounds to me like you'd be a good candidate for a lynch mob, Clint. Just the kind of bigoted certainty they're looking for.

I'm no big fan of Lori's - she's brought some of this on herself by being arrogant and thoughtless about the pressures that can build up in a country with Peru's recent history. But the sentence is blatantly disproportionate, and Peru needs to get the message, loud and clear, that the country is bringing huge discredit on itself with its handling of this case.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jun 01 - 07:13 PM

Guest Canadian: You've got a pretty good point there, I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 01:33 PM

Repression is a matter of fact, not belief, Tim McVeigh, was deluded and, like so many of the people(like you, apparently) who passively support Government Terrorism, just avoided looking at the consequences and dwelt on his own, highly subjective, principles--

And don't try to pin the Oklahoma City bombings on me, and don't try to claim that I either justify or support terrorist activities in any way--I defend all the people who campaign for freedom from repression--I refuse to believe that every nun who was raped and murdered, every peasant who was massacred, every journalist who was tortured, deserved it because they advocated ecconomic change--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 23 Jun 01 - 02:20 PM

Tim McVeigh was deluded. Hmm. I never read or heard anywhere that such tests had been made to determine that. Interesting.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:07 AM

Ah yes, "Missing". Thanks ted. I've seen "State of Seige". Good film.

Rick

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 01:04 AM

Clinton, Larry really has said everything I could say and said it better than I could say it, but if you don't care, what are you doing on this thread.

It's a terrible shame. I've known a good number of young people who've visited different countries as part of different programs; teaching English, teaching organic farming, helping with setting up irrigation systems, personal enrichment.... Any one of them could end up in prison for life for being in the wrong place in the wrong time, or finding themselves in a legal system that requires them to prove their innocence without a working knowledge of the the legal system they need to operate within. It happens here in the USA as well. There are people serving ridiculous mandatory mininum sentences for being in the same place as a drug dealer, or relaying a seemingly innocent phone message(tell him to call so-and-so, or whatever).

This site is not the place I would expect such callous disregard for others.

Rich

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 04:26 AM

MTed

By definition, a woman who would go to a foreign country and aid and abet the kidnapping of diplomats from a third country is at LEAST deluded and may be mentally ill in other ways. If you are saying that government terrorism justified civilian terrorism then you may not be deluded, but perhaps you should open your eyes.

There is a difference between being a nun, a journalist or even for that matter, a legitimate revelutionary and being a terrorist.

Who are you to say Tim McVeigh was deluded? He had every right to his opinions. But when he crossed the line into murder, the just and proper thing was to make him pay. the only pity being that he could not be made to pay 169 times.

I am not pinning the Oklahoma City bombings on you. I am accusing you of a double standard. McVeigh was a citizen advocating economic change. If McVeigh had had a Peruvian accomplice, shouuld that accomplice have been sent back to her parents in Peru rather than face the consequences?

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 12:28 PM

Guest Canadian: you make some excellent points, I believe. I felt M. Ted's statement about Timothy McVey to be a bit presumptious, myself. If any tests were conducted that would confirm his opinion, I certainly am not aware of them.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Willie-O
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 03:36 PM

Tim McVeigh may not have been insane or otherwise mentally ill--probably wasn't--but if someone whose political philosophies are informed in large part from Star Wars (as well as from vile racist hate literature) decides that he is justified in the intentional murder of 168 fellow human beings who are posing no threat whatsoever to him, (which is just what happened here), that sure as hell is DELUDED behaviour. To put it mildly.

Don't know much about the Berenson case, but I do know that "posing as a journalist" and providing some unspecified general information to a group that is planning a (potentially violent) political action, is not in the same league as blowing up a building full of people. As it turned out, the main victims of the siege were the Tupac Amaru guerillas themselves, who were eventually slaughtered in a military assault on the compound which they had held for several months.

This is remarkably similar to the case of Spencer and Lamont, two Canadian activists who were imprisoned for several years in South America for their participation in a political kidnapping. As in the Berenson case, they admitted to renting the house (where the kidnap victim was held) but claimed not to know of the illegal side of their friends' activities. After several years of sympathetic coverage, a Canadian journalist actually dug a little deeper and guess what? They weren't such innocents abroad after all, despite the Canadian predisposition to believe that of them. Eventually they were returned to Canada, haven't admitted some guilt, under a deal that they would finish their sentences in Canadian prisons.

That's probably what Peru wants.

Giving Peru the finger wasn't such a clever legal strategy under the circumstances. I sympathise with her position though--let's face it, she's not likely to be getting much moral support from the current U.S. Administration.

Willie-O
Canadian, Not An American, Thank You Very Much.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 08:08 PM

I in no way condone what TM did, Proud Canadian. As far as I'm concerned he got exactly what he deserved.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 10:14 PM

I re-read what I had posted, perplexed as I am as to why our more conservative members are trying to paint me as a hypocrite and terrorist sympathizer--go back and re-read my posts folks-I posted an article about the case, expressed cynicism about the timing and integrity of the re-trial, and made a general comment about the many people who have gone to Central and South America to work for social justice, some of who have never returned for one reason or another--

DougR and GuestCanadian would have me defend things that I never said--typical disengenuous trick to harass anyone who doesn't agree totally with them, and to associate them, without justification with the worst possible evils--

I don't have any problem with your expression of whatever views that you might have, but don't like being used as a whipping boy--especially for things I didn't say--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Jun 01 - 11:23 PM

Hi M.Ted: Don't count on them as charactor witnesses when you get brought up on charges in a place like Peru, eh?
Keep smiling all, but think of the dark cold places,
Larry

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:30 AM

MTed: I have no quarrel with you. But: "Repression is a matter of fact, not belief, Timothy McVeigh was deluded and like so many of the people (like you apparently)who passively support government terrorism, just avoided looking at the consequences and dwelt on his own, highly subjective principles ...," are your words.

My disagreement with you stems from your statement that TM was deluded. I don't recall his being judged so by experts. If you do, so be it, but a reference would be nice, or perhaps the statement could be qualified with a IMOH.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:40 AM

Sorry MTed,

I thought you were implying that Berenson was involved in legitimate actions, designed to overthrow a repressive government. From what I read here she was abetting terrorists who were no better than McVeigh except for fewer victims. I apologise for my confusion. I suspect the retrial at all was due to the fact that she is a citizen of the United States and for that reason is getting special treatment. I hope I am wrong.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 01:44 AM

I'm not all that consevrative. It is good to fight opression. But do it wisly and do it morally. And don't drag your own government into the fray to bail you out of the consequences. Otherwise you're no better than the oppressors.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 05:39 AM

I've arrived at the conclusion that right-wing mudcatters are brainless illiterates . . Why doesn't Guest Canadian "sign up" and become a full member of that sad group . .

G.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

George George George!
Let's adress the issue and not give into the urge to personalize this. Yes, it is very discouraging to hear folks proclaim proudly their lack of caring. But, address that, these folks don't care becasue they have never been in a position to come to empathise with people in this condition and a great number of people can't empathise in the abstract, or because of personal experience cast people like Lori in in appropriate rolls, like seeing her as another McVigh. If we just say they aren't intelligent, we don't make progress on our conversation. I didn't give up on you, and I think we got to know each other's political history because we got past the steriotypes and insults.
Frankly apathy makes me nuts, but we have to do a better job at spreading empathy to defete apathy.
Cheers all, play nice,
Larry

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:43 AM

Guest Canadian,
Just wanted to clarify my "slap on the wrist" quote. The Peruvian government was willing to treat her actions as such in turn for an admission of guilt and an apology. Berenson refused to give either - an idealistic and foolish act in my opinion. They then went from "You can go home if you apologize" to "You will serve 20 years in jail for LEADING an attempt at revolution." I have a problem with that. Again, I feel strongly (and warn young people frequently about it) that when in a foreign country, you are subject to their rules. Make it your business to know them. If public caning is the punishment for graffiti, then either don't write on walls or accept responsibility.

Lori Berenson aided in the planning of a rebellion or at least helped those who were planning a rebellion. She has served 5 years for it to date. She is being punished for LEADING a rebellion - at best a stretch. And in fact she is being used as a pawn in an international game of politics.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: GUEST,Canadian
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 10:42 AM

SINSULL

You are right. That behavior on the behalf of the Peruvian Gvt. does not make sense. If she helped to plan the raid on the embassy then she should have been dealt with much more severely in the first place. Shame on Peru for dealing with her crimes so lightly. But if she did pose as a reporter to gather information to be used in an attack on an embassy, then 20 years is not an unreasonable sentence. It is not the same as blowing up a building full of people. It is exactly the same as helping someone blow up a building full of people. One death or a hundred, murder is murder.

I am sorry, but I do not consider the kidnapping of diplomats to be an attempt at revolution. It is terrorism, plain and simple. Even if the cause is just does that justify the means?

Here is a question. Do you think this woman may be sacrificing herself for the cause? Is she making things difficult for herself so that her cause will gain sympathy and international publicity. If that is so should the US government be playing along?

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 12:37 PM

Do you think this woman may be sacrificing herself for the cause? Is she making things difficult for herself so that her cause will gain sympathy and international publicity. If that is so should the US government be playing along?

I don't know. From what I have read (and I don't believe everything I read in the papers) she is an idealistic young woman. Is she a spoiled brat determined to stand firm until she gets her own way - hardly likely given the consequences she has chosen to suffer as a result of her idealism. Is she a heroine willing to give all for her cause? Maybe. Did her actions merit a 20 year jail term? I don't think so but I also don't believe that we know the whole story. I am cynical enough about world leaders to believe that she is a pawn in everyone's game - the revolutionaries, the US government, the Peruvian government, the journalists who stand to make a buck from her story.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:03 PM

GeorgeH: I'm sure all of us "right-wingers" as you call us feel priviledged to be associated with fair folks like you, but from the sound of it, you might be happier in a forum composed of people who only share your point of view. You might enjoy constantly hearing: I agree with you! Yes, right on, George H., you got it right, man! Hear, hear! Way to go! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:12 PM

DougR--I am using the word "deluded" in the sense that he held a "false belief held without reservation as the result of self-deception" as per the American Heritage Dictionary--it is not a psychiatrict term, and may be used without a psychiatric evaluation--

Willie-O pretty much wrapped it up the reasons that McVeigh was deluded--and by the way, TM believed a great number of Americans would understand his act and be inspired by it-- events after the bombings show that he was deluded in at least those beliefs--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 03:54 PM

Okie dokie, MTed, I was sort of splitting hairs anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 04:33 PM

Better to split hairs than to split heads--

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 06:31 PM



GeorgeR - your outburst says much more about you than about those you criticize. At worst, genuinely well thought out arguments against your opinions give you an opportunity to re-examine your arguments and conclusions. In fact, they give you an opportunity to explain your arguments in terms to which your opponents (In the debating sense) can relate. Horror of horrors, some of the conservative opinions expressed on Mudcat have actually convinced me to temper my own liberalism.
Please show some respect.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Jun 01 - 08:35 PM

Yikes! I sounded just like Sister Blister in that last post. Take your worst shot, George. I earned it.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:50 AM

Well, Sinsull, I for one thought it was a pretty good post! I'm biased, though, I guess.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:42 AM

Thanks Doug. I stand by mt thoughts. The tone was a little out of line. This from this morning's news. toledo refuses to intervene :
"Berenson's parents said that despite her conviction, their daughter is at peace because she never betrayed her principles.

``She cannot confess to something she did not do, and she cannot repent for something she did not do, and that is what the judges kept goading her to do,'' Rhoda Berenson said.

Her mother sounds like a pretty amazing lady.

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 01:22 PM

She is not innocent. She is playing the United States for a patsy and is waiting for you to bail her out "as a gesture of goodwill."

Lori's own words condemn her.

She met the verdict calmly, standing most of the time as a clerk read the lengthy findings against her for more than three hours. Earlier Wednesday, Berenson spoke in her own defense, telling the three-judge court "I am innocent of the charges against me."

"I've been classified as a terrorist," Berenson said. "I am not a terrorist. I condemn terrorism, and I want to reiterate that."

She said that in Peru, the word "terrorist" has been used so often that the real meaning of the word "is no longer understood." <>

"There has been political violence, and within this political violence there has been on the part of the state, or of the subversives, actions that might be classified as terrorist. It would be important to study this in its proper magnitude and identify those who are responsible. That's for the well-being of the country," she said.

<>

A native of New York, Berenson was detained by Peruvian security forces November 30, 1995. At the time, she was living with members of the Tupac Amaru Revolutionary Movement -- an armed Peruvian organization -- in a Lima suburb.

Berenson claims she was in the country working as a free-lance journalist for unspecified "leftist" publications, and that she never knew her housemates were suspected terrorists. During a bloody raid on the house Berenson had rented, Peruvian security forces found weapons, explosives, and a detailed plan of the Peruvian congress. <>

Subject: RE: Lori Berenson gets 20 years!
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:38 PM

RobDale,

I am a little vague on what constitutes an admission of guilt there--perhaps you did not post the whole article--

When you post something from a publication(or wire service, such as Associated Press or Reuters), make sure you include the name of the Publication, the date of the publication, the name of the author (if it is by-lined), the headlines, and the copyright notice, if any. And make sure you have copied and posted the entire article!!!!!

When you write your comment, you may of course, pull whatever you want from the original text, but, for credibility sake, people ought to be able to see the whole article.

Don't just post a link, either, because newspapers generally only allow free access for a week or two, and after that, anyone who wants to read the article will have to pay a two or three dollar download fee--

On many occasions, these threads get pulled out later on, and it helps to understand what people are talking about when there is source material in the thread--