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A Real Folksinger
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 16 Jul 01 - 06:46 AM Which explains why Elvis just couldn't leave "Aura Lee" well enough alone! Actually, I do sing "Love Me Tender" once in a while. I'm holding off on "Aura Lee" until I do a musical about the Clinton/Lewinsky affair. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST Date: 15 Jul 01 - 06:09 PM Never sings a real folk song as it was traditionally sung. Always has to change it so it will be known by his/her name. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 15 Jul 01 - 12:51 PM Good people, If you reread the initial message in this thread, you will see that I never discussed what folk music is and isn't. That's an entirely different matter from what I wrote about. What I did in the first message was name several characteristics of what I called a real folksinger. Taken as a whole, being a folksinger is more a question of attitude than of repertoire. That's why I continue to hold that any song can be a folksong, and that folk music isn't a genre. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:16 PM It's interesting how this topic is reminiscent of the way some talk about jazz. What is jazz? This can also start a lively debate. Some say that any arranged swing oriented dance band can be called jazz. Others say that jazz is only based on improvisation. Even the term "classical" music is ambiguous. I guess labels seem to trigger reactions. The solution is to go with the style of music that you like. As a consumer of music, it doesn't do any good any more to group music under any different label because the terms "folk", "jazz", "classical" have be appropriated by the recording industry to sell the kind of genre they think the public will buy. It becomes important to know more about what record labels produce and their artists. The frame of reference for dealing with these musical terms has deteriorated because there are no standardized definitions that people can agree upon. For those like me who like a certain kind of music that we used to call folk, the solution would be to follow the culture that created the music that you like. Take a folklorist or anthropologist view of the music and you'll find what you're looking for. You probably won't find it in the popular music field. Frank |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 14 Jul 01 - 01:24 PM ahhh, Whistle Stop...I do pay attention to advertised programs as best I can, and lately, our program people have been doing a better job of identifying the nature of the program to be presented. (And I am getting better at reading between the lines). But, programs which feature the more traditional stuff is just not as common, and I suppose the people HAVE spoken. I do know that a few performers like to come to FSGW because they can sing old ballads and trad stuff and be appreciated, whereas some college campus gigs demand the newer stuff, whatever it is called.
I know friends who sing the old things, and we have some swaps...and I have my records....but as to " railing against the rest of the world", I guess I just hope that those who hear my pleas will at least have an idea of what the issue really is and perhaps realize that those older style songs have some appeal in their own right. ah, well,,,we do what we can...(and I keep listening and finding new things that even I like...though I will NOT file most of it under folk/trad *evil smile*)
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:17 PM Yankee -- I know it wasn't really your grandmother, as I was teaching her to suck eggs at the time of that game, but your story cracked me up anyway!! Thankls for a good laugh!! A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:00 AM i HAVE A DOG THAT SINGS. (foir my Britt friends, "I have a bitch that sings) Her name is "Tilly" (short for Mathilda) (her parents came from Australia) She is a Jack Russel Terrier. We discovered, quite by accident, that any time she heard the notes that were on our doorbell chimes, "Day-Oh" like in the banana boat song, tillie would answer with the same notes. (Also, "YOO-HOO") So we taught her the Harry Belefonte version of the banana boat song. Honest. I don't, for the life of me' know how she manages the actual word or two that she sticks in, because dogs do not have vocal chords. She gets the melody right on and actually, once she's primed w8ith a pennywhistle, 30-06 cartridge case (quit yelling at me) or a harmonica, sings the first few words quite clearly. "DAY OH, DAAAY OH, WOO,OO,OO -GO HOME" ETC ETC. If any of you doubt this, and give me enough of an ioncentive (like repeated, "yeah, yea., I know , I know) I'll send you a tape. Jim Bennett, who reads this drivel occasionally, has heard Tilly Sing and will verify this. Dr. Cyrill Allen, our Vet, says that the occasional dog that sings does so for the same reason that other canids do, for the pure enjoyment of it./ |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 14 Jul 01 - 01:28 AM Hey Amos, Your last paragraph reminded me of the time took My Grandmother (Sophia Puzelli) to Yankee Stadium to see Joe DiMaggio play. Grandma Loved the fact that an Italian American was considered to be one of the finest players the game has ever seen. I couldn't help but agree, even though I was a Brooklyn Dodger Fanatic.
All my cousins chipped in and we managed a couple of box seats right behind the Yankee Dugout. When the "Clipper" came to bat, Grandma was on the edge of her seat. Well, they walked him. As he trotted by on his way to first base, Grandma wanted to know how come he wasn't running. I told her, "because he got four balls". |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:44 PM The reason this gets so silly is that because of various glitches and twists in hostory, the poor abused "folk" has been tortured and torn and stuffed into at least four unique meanings, and these get sluing around as if they were only one, or two. This generates endless bales of cognitive dissonance and gigabytes of "shorty" file content. 1. Folk means, oeioke in general. 2. In an era when a small number were highly priveleged, and a very large number very under priveleged, "folk" meant the people who were not priveleged, and therefore not as a rule educated in formal musical traditions. 3. Therefore folk also came to mean the music generated by laboring people, usually of an uneducated sort using simpler themes, basic stories, recurring basic structures like 1-4-5, etc. 3. When the feudal model gradually gave way to a rising middle class thanks to technoloical and philosophical advances it became necessary to build an endlessly expanding classification system to provide libraries and other forms of information for specialized professions, and a more populous reading class. In categorizing things, the word "folk was used to describe all kinds of music that seemed generally related to (2). This was gradually extended to a fourth definition of broader classes of music similarly built or expressing similar sentiments. There are various intersections of these four balls of meaning, but given that people bounce around among them fairly freely it isn't too surprising that agreeing on what "it" means is a rare event. A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Paul G. Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:16 PM Man, I guess I'm stepping into this one pretty late in the game...but I've been away for a while...singing folk songs...most of which I've written....guess that makes me a singer/songwriter, which makes me an UNREAL folk singer. I've been writing and playing more country style stuff lately, which has certainly contributed to the increase in bookings, and money....which further makes me an UNREAL folk singer. Oh, and my daughter and her husband have 6 horses on their farm and they all sing...not folk though, mostly western swing. Ah, it's grand to be back...and uable to restrain myself from contributing to the 79th iteration of the "what is folk music" thread...must be the humidity. pg |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Whistle Stop Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:10 AM Bill, have you considered that you have just adopted a more limited definition than your colleagues? You can rail against the rest of the world to your heart's content, but it sounds to me like you're in the minority on this, and will continue to be. If you really don't want to shell out your hard-earned money to hear people who play "songs written in the last 5 years, in a style and with subject matter [you] don't care for," perhaps you should pay more attention to the advertised content of these performances -- who the performers are and what they are known for doing -- rather than just relying on the word "folk" to guide you, in the hopes that everyone else will adopt your narrow interpretation of the word. The self-ordained professors' tongues may declare that they know what folk music is, but I would hardly expect the larger folk music community -- which tends to be a pretty independent-minded bunch -- to meekly accept the pronouncements of the "experts". Ironically, the definition of the term "folk music" will continue to be determined by the folk process -- people collectively deciding what the words mean to them -- rather than by the academics and "official" authorities. It seems that the people have spoken, and in general they prefer a more inclusive definition. Fortunately for me, I like it that way. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM LOL, Jody!....somehow, I doubt you're gonna cancel that next gig because some younger curmudgeon (a sprightly 62) has an obsession with categories. (And I'd hate it if you did!) Fact is, even 'folk singer' doesn't do justice to what you seem to do, and I expect I'd enjoy hearing you. All that category stuff is interesting to me, but when I decide what to sing, I don't run an analysis on it first, and I song lots of stuff that I don't CALL folk/trad music. If I were to try making a living at it, I suppose I'd call myself a singer of music "in the traditions"...that is 'mostly' related to folk.....and if someone pressed me, I'd declare that not all of what I do IS folk. My only real point is, calling yourself something doesn't magically make anything you do 'folk'. If you did "The Toreador Song", "La Donna E Mobile", "Mein liebster Freund" by Mozart, "Ritorna vincitor", from Aïde, and several more of that ilk and only a couple like "Home on the Range" and "One Meatball", people would consider you an Opera singer with strange habits, and insisting you were a folk singer would be pointless. It seems like MOST of what you do is folk, so I'll not dispute that it is a useful label...but LOTS of people out there are doing stuff that is NOT, and using 'folk' to describe themselves...and when I pay money to hear them, I get frustrated, because that's not what I expected. I belong to the "Folklore Society of Greater Washington", and it gets REAL interesting when I go to a concert and find 75% of the songs were written in the last 5 years, in a style and with subject matter I don't care for! They may be very good musicians and quite popular, but I can FIND singer/songwriter and pop/rock music everywhere...I wa't a tiny little corner where the older stuff is done in a more traditional way......*grin*...and it is hard to find! So....*shrug*..everyone should sing what they want, but when they advertise it, tell me the TRUTH about what it is! |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 12 Jul 01 - 02:00 PM Yeah, Yeah, I know, I know. From, THE DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPT. As stated previously, I'll give it another shot and say this one more time. STAND UP STRAIGHT, LOOK INTELLIGENT AND DON'T DRAG YOUR KNUCKLES. Also, Entirely too many of you are spending entirely too much time categorizing when you could be listening to composing, singing and enjoying (or being disgusted with) music I'm an old folk (72) who earns his living singing to other folks. I occasionally compose new material. I know and sing at least 1500 pieces of "stuff" (that's what my wife and I have in our list of song titles) I enjoy myself more than the other folks who are listening to me do. If I like it, I learn it and perform it (if my musical abilities are up to it) The list includes "La Donna E Mobile" from Rigoletto as well as Home on the Range, One Meatball,Saint Louis Blues, My old Man's a Dustman and Life Get's Tedjius, Don't it ? etc. etc. etc. I cinsider myself to be "A Folksinger" WHAT? YOU DISAPPROVE? I AM DEVESTATED!!!!!! I SHALL NEVER SING ANOTHER NOTE. I WILL,FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE, SIT QUIETLY IN THE CORNER AND ATTEMPT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT LED YOU TO THIS "NON-APPROVAL" I remain, humbly and crest-fallen, Y'R Ob'd't s'v'nt> JODY GIBSON |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:13 AM John P..."necessary criteria for something being considered a folk song. "....it's not that I consider acoustic a necessary criterion, but it is one of many ways in which folk or traditional has been identified. My approach is a bit different, since I KNOW we can never all agree about a strict linear 'definition' of a genré. Let me try again, as briefly as I can. If we take bunches & bunches (hundreds?..thousands?) of songs (and varied versions & performances of those songs) and ask bunches & bunches of people to rate them as folk or not folk, we will eventually get a list of songs that MOST people consider to BE folk. Perhaps "The Fox" will be on on it...perhaps "Barbry Allen"....perhaps "Mr Tamborine Man" will not be..*shrug*..(yet) Then, we look at those songs & versions & performances and ask ourselves, "Now, what is common among those songs that made almost everyone agree about them?" We will get some sort of list of characteristics that seem to commonly appear..(tune patterns, age, acoustic presentation, style, subject matter,..etc.) The list is not an absolute, as the analysis is partly subjective, but you can GET a list of 8 to 30 pretty easily. Now....you look at a song, you look at your list, and you ask yourself..."does this songs have a majority of those, just a few, or hardly any?" The point is, if it has most of the items on your list, it tends to qualify...(the singer used his own tune variation for "Barbry Allen", but left everything else..or he did it straight, but played it on a electric dulcimer)
I do NOT presume that anyone will keep some long printout in their pocket so that they can run thru some tedious checklist every time they hear a song..*grin*...it is 92.3147% an attitude. After awhile, it isn't even a concious thing....you just sort of do a processing thing like you'd do with some variation in a favorite food..."like Mom used to make" or "wierd spicy version that I don't think I like". All this assumes you CARE...I do care, because I like some spices and not others....but, yes, I have heard 'folk' songs played on non-acoustic instruments that still retained most of the feeling of 'folk', and that I enjoyed....not as MUCH as if they were played acoustically, perhaps, but *shrug*. And a song could be played on a Martin D-18, by a famous 'folk' singer, with words and tune right out of Child...but at a frenzied pace that left me gasping...I might CALL it folk, and still not like it! so...not so brief, huh? Well, anyway, everytime I do this, the exercise helps me refine my own attitude about it all, so it ain't wasted, even if very few read it...I can go back and use it as notes to my 27 volume analysis of **FOLK MUSIC** (*grin*) |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:37 AM Thanks, Steve. Saw the Eb and did wonder about it. Found a snippet from one of the searches and I see how it fits... I hope I get to play it sometime. I'll credit ya, of course. Ed |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM The Mexican restaurant was probably Pancho's Wreck on Route 9, about midway bewteen Bennington and Brattleboro. I would sometimes do a late afternoon or early evening set at the bar in exchange for a dinner and a beer before the regular entertainment showed up. I would always sing "Pancho's" instead of "Paco's" and the verses would vary from one performance to the next. I also sang "Baby, Let Me Buy You a Taco" at several other places, but I can't recall any other Mexican restaurants in Vermont. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:27 PM Bob Dylan recorded Von Schmidt's "Baby, Let Me Follow You Down" on his first Columbia LP about 40 years ago. The album is just called "Bob Dylan," and it should be available on CD. Eric Von Schmidt's secret to a really fine and funky BLMFYD is to play an E-flat chord (in the key of G) where one would expect to hear a C7. The vocal melody is hitting a B-flat note at that time. BABY, LET ME FOLLOW YOU DOWN As performed by Eric Von Schmidt Chord name appears immediately before syllable on which change occurs. [G] Baby, let me follow you [F] down, [C] Baby, let me follow you [E-flat] down, I'd [G] do any- [D] thing in this [C] God Almighty [D] world, If you [C] just let me [D] follow you [G] down. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 11 Jul 01 - 10:30 AM Bill, given the conversation, this struck me funny: After seeing Suffet's Taco song, I gotta play it. I'm embarrassed to not know the tune, but went looking. I searched for "Baby, Let Me Follow You Down"+Lyrics. While I got what I was looking for , half the other hits were for Aerosmith's "Dude Looks A Lady". They use the phrase at the end of the song. Now, I'm not saying "Dude" is folk, but Tyler certainly heard the Dylan and Von Schmidt. Seems we may be mixing the basic song with performance and influence?
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,John Hernandez Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:27 AM John P. made an excellent point worth repeating: "One of the 'things' (for me, anyway) about traditional folk music is that it is local music. The concept of learning everything there is to know about local music from somewhere else and then trying to play it like it is played somewhere else seems almost the antithesis of traditional musianship. It's really scholarly musicology, isn't it? Of course you are not doing traditional Irish music. As you say, you're a bunch of Americans." When I've gone to Ireland and have sung songs like "Kevin Barry" and "Gilgarry Mountain," someone invariably points out that I do them differently from than how they are done there. Not wrong, just differently. If anything, the people in Ireland are curious about how their songs evolved after having taken root in America. And they still look on those songs as Irish music. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,John Hernandez Date: 11 Jul 01 - 09:10 AM I think I heard the taco song once at a Mexican restaurant in Vermont. That was a long time ago. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: John P Date: 11 Jul 01 - 08:25 AM UB Ed, You said, "The group I'm in plays traditional irish music like a bunch of Americans. If for no other reason than . . . we're a bunch of Americans. Occasionally we stumble into a fellow performer who . . . never fails to point out that we're not doing traditional Irish music." One of the "things" (for me, anyway) about traditional folk music is that it is local music. The concept of learning everything there is to know about local music from somewhere else and then trying to play it like it is played somewhere else seems almost the antithesis of traditional musianship. It's really scholarly musicology, isn't it? Of course you are not doing traditional Irish music. As you say, you're a bunch of Americans. It sounds to me like you are doing traditional music from whatever city you are from. The music happens to have originated in Ireland, but so what? It's not in Ireland now, and neither are you. That doesn't decrease the traditional nature of the music, it just means that the locals are playing it in the local style -- making it even more traditional, if you will. It also doesn't change the Irish origins of the music, so calling it Irish music is still perfectly accurate. Bill D, I have to say that I'm not one who lists being played acoustically as one of the necessary criteria for something being considered a folk song. It seems to me that most of Steeleye Span's songs are folk songs, and most singer-songerwriter songs are not. I consider a traditional folk song, even when sung by the worst classical soprano warbler, the most distorted garage band, or the fastest bluegrass band, to still be a traditional folk song. I guess my emphasis is more on the song itself and where it came from more than on where or how it is played. I've actually had people tell me that a song stops being a traditional folk song if I take it on stage and play it for pay with a band that has arranged it for performance. But the very same song is traditional if I sit around the living room playing it with some friends. I've always thought that was a bizarre concept. The song itself is a set of lyrics and a melody. They aren't really changed by being played in different venues on different instruments for different reasons. John Peekstok |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:08 PM Nice song, Suffet!! First rate! I can hear Bob Dylan singing it down in Chula Vista!! A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 01 - 06:37 PM well Ed, the only way I developed any idea of the differences was to hear them done many times...this meant 'mostly' records...not always easy to find these days. but it helps a lot! |
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Subject: Baby, Let Me Buy You a Taco From: Suffet Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:29 PM Now, Alice Flynn from Montana. There's a true folksinger any day of the week. I heard the Clancy Brothers sing "The Work of the Weavers," and I wrote "The Work of the Landlord" to the same tune. (It should be in the DT.) Then Alice comes along and parodies my parody with her own song, "The Work of the Guru." Darn, that's the highest honor a fellow can get! And, Janice, thanks for reminding me. BABY, LET ME BUY YOU A TACO Music: "Baby, Let Me Follow You Down" by Eric Von Schmidt, based on traditional Words: Stephen L. Suffet © 1978, 2001 Baby, let me buy you a taco, We can go to this place called Paco's, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Let me fill it with my refried beans, Guacamole and my sweet sour cream, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Let me top it with Jalisco queso, Baby, it will cost just a peso, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Some chilis and a hot jalapeño, So spicy you never can say no, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. I'll give you my salsa picante, While I sing just like Jimmy Durante, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Baby, I'll never mistreat you, If you come and taste my burrito, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Baby, let me buy you some flan, Let me be your sweet loving man, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. Baby, let me buy you a taco, We can go to this place called Paco's, I'd do anything in this God Almighty world, If you just let me buy you a taco. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 10 Jul 01 - 05:27 PM Bill....that's specifically why I did ask as well as start plowing back over old discussions! And I appreciate your thoughtful response. I truly want to know what is meant by "folk" and "traditional". In another thread a distinction is made between "old time" and "blue grass" fiddling. I think its important to be aware these distinctions exist. If there are such distinctions, we need to know them so we don't have to reinvent the freaking wheel everytime a bunch of us neophytes come along. And it really isn't as subjective as some of us wish to believe. Don't get me wrong; I play what and how I feel with a keen eye/ear to the audience. But I also want to know the subtle differences between what I'm doing and "traditional" or "folk" so I may intelligently talk about it and, if requested, play it. At this point, when asked, all I know is I play "Irish-American Pub Music". I just happen to know this is different from folk and traditional but not how. I hope to ultimately be able to discern this from my 'Catsearch. Without a common grounding of meanings and definitions, it is extremely difficult to chat intelligently. That being said, I also recognize there are some of us you are less compelled to bone up before joining in; I personally prefer to be informed prior to rendering an opinion. Nonetheless, we don't wish to discourage the occasional "new" question, rather we wish to gently respond by guiding the questioner to additional information and cultivating a conversational climate of respect. Susan and some others have occasionally suggested compilation of previous threads. Seems to me a Mudcat reference thread could do the trick. Think how simple it would have been to be able to refer people to the What is Folk discussion. That said, I also suspect there are few among us with the skill/time to make such editorials and as such that comes down on the shoulders of Max, Joe and select others. Anyway, thanks for the answers. I have much to learn! Ed |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 01 - 04:51 PM yep, Ed...we have discussed it a lot. There has even been a catorization of the categorizers...into 'lumpers' & 'splitters'...(you know the old line..."there's two types of people- those who divide people into types, and those who don't") The thing is, I believe that most people use categories everyday, but some want categories to reflect their 'personal' habits & attitudes, rather than being expected to follow some logic or order.
The Irish musicians you have met have a long-standing notion of how that music should be played...pace, tune, intonation...ever order of tunes sometimes! That is what 'tradition' MEANS... other ways are not exactly wrong, but there is, as you have seen, some resistance to gratuitous change. I do know that music does change over time...'folk processing', they call it, and I no doubt do some of that myself...but to use a phrase of my own coinage, it bothers me to have the Folk Processor set on 'pureé'. I am admittedly in the conservative camp in this debate, but I have VERY detailed reasons and justifications for expecting certain venues and institutions to pay attention to the categories. I don't have any right to tell them what to play, who to hire, what to record, how to write...etc., but I DO claim it is careless -bordering on rude- to NAME the genrés in a slippery, self-serving way. The cuckoo is renowned in song as a sneaky bird who lays her eggs in another birds nest and pushes the owners eggs out. That is a bit like I feel when someone writes a song about their navel, or changes words and tune to a traditional song, and calls it 'folk'. So, ummm...what am I now to call those old songs I like? 'Folk' was a useful term for a number of years, so was 'traditional'...now they are telling me Mary Chapin Carpenter is 'folk' and Bob Dylan is 'traditional'...*sigh* So...perhaps in some venues, your group might issue a disclaimer, as Phil Cooper & Margaret Nelson do when they perform... Margaret says.."yes, I 'messed with' some of these songs, so don't be surprised is they are a little different than you are used to.".......That helps ME decide whether I want to buy their CDs or go to their concerts. 'Messing with' is not exactly a category, but it sure makes things clear!..(and some of their 'messing' is ok) [incidentally, my other life is woodworking...and you ought to hear me when people (especially dealers)..make up cute names for wood just for advertising purposes, or use already 'known' words like Walnut & Rosewood to refer to trees that are NOT in the Juglans or Dalbergia families!....and there are similar disputes in the "Freeware" newsgroup where some want to advertise their ad-supported programs and get yelled at by those who want FREE to mean NO strings attached!...it goes on & on..quilters, antique collectors, Civil War buffs, SCA groups...ALL have debates about inclusion & exclusion of items, practices and categories] It seems to me that there is no end to it, as people are simply wired differently as to how they see things............but..*grin*,,you DID ask! |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:00 PM Bill, its important to have differences of opinion and equally that others respect those differences. I wandered into the 'Cat last December, so I feel I'm still kinda new. I've learned to search the trad and (most of the time) do blue clickys correctly. I have developed a tremendous amount of respect for the musical knowledge and devotion of the regular 'Catters (some of the politics is squirrelly, but thats politics). The group I'm in plays traditional irish music like a bunch of Americans. If for no other reason than (1) we don't know any better, (2) the audience seems to like it and (3) we're a bunch of Americans. Occasionally we stumble into a fellow performer who is always complimentary about what we do, but never fails to point out that we're not doing traditional Irish music. It is beyond our abilities to discern why he's telling us this. We're having a ball and people are getting to hear songs they normally wouldn't come across. So a thread like this sparks my interest, especially with the parallel Floyd thread. Art Thieme's response was troubling to me as he is one of the Old Timers and I am generally curious if there is definition of folk (or "traditional Irish" for that matter). So I searched the database. Please excuse me. I have stumbled late onto a discussion that gnawed your arm off bored two years ago! Although I can say with absolute certainity that I still don't "know" what folk is, I certainly have a new appreciation for the previos attempts made to define and categorize. With all that, here is a thread Alice in Montana started. It'll take a while to read, but provides a good place for all wishing to discuss this to ground themselves. I'd even suggest permathread status. Ed |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Bill D Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:28 PM UB Ed..if you list 27 different things that 'seem' to be charactertics of folk songs (songs almost EVERYONE agrees are folk), being played acoustically is one. Certain rhythms are another. Im my not-so-humble *grin* opinion, I wouldn't call a song folk until it had a preponderance of the 27(or 14..or 58) characteristics...and preferably more than ¾ or so. (No real dividing line for me, and NOT being folk does NOT mean I can't like it, I just would say that THIS song I like is pop, or Bluegrass...or whatever) So...my answer is, no, I don't think your Arrowsmith example makes it 'folk', as changing only a couple things don't change the 'basics'...doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do, or that you should change anything you sing....just means that if you get famous and record it, I have an opinion about where it should be located in the music store. As you have seen, my opinions are not necessarily shared by everyone. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 10 Jul 01 - 12:20 PM Well Amos, we may both be showing some vintage here. Had I been more thoughtful during my previous post, I'd have mentioned the Stones as well. Kris, I'm an imaginary folksinger... I like the collective repertoire concept; but I also respect songs that were salvaged verbally from an old grandfather prior to his passing. Perhaps folk is more of a style? Back in Pink Floyd land one could certainly play "Wish You Were Here" and (for someone who'd never heard that song) pass it as "folk." |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: KingBrilliant Date: 10 Jul 01 - 08:00 AM Amos - why not just piss in their ear whether or not their brain is on fire? Just retribution if y'ask me. That first post reminds me of the 'Love is..' series. It has that weird flavour you get in those inspirational emails that do the rounds. Sorry Suffet, I don't mean that nastily, its just the way it struck as I read it. Wry smile. I enjoyed it really - it does ring very true. As for me, I don't much mind whether I'm a real folksinger - actually I suspect I'm a completely fake one. A mere veneer. Ah well... Kris |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 10 Jul 01 - 07:35 AM I said earlier that any song can become a folksong. Moving a rock composition to a single voice acoustic arrangement may be a step in the process. But more important would getting that song to become part of the collective repertoire of a community. "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" (at least the chorus) and "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" have both, in my opinion, become folksongs, even though both started as Tin Pan Alley creations. So have "Frosty the Snowman," "Yellow Submarine," "The Unicorn," and dozens of other songs that children learn in what is essentially a folkloric process. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 10 Jul 01 - 02:07 AM UB Ed: Sorry -- nothing by Aerosmith qualifies as an "older" rock tune!!! Try "48 Miles", "Sh-Boom", or maybe "Green Door" or "Honeycomb"!!! LOL Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: UB Ed Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:19 PM Bill D. come back from the sidelines for just one minute... I have been finding myself playing some of the older "rock" tunes solo acoustically. Aerosmith's "Dream On", the Who "Won't Get Fooled Again", "Behind Blue Eyes", "Pinball Wizard" as well as some old Bowie and other whatnot. Needless to say, I'm not "covering" the tune; at best I'm talking the song and moving it to a single guitar/voice arrangement. The lyrics are compelling. So do I get to qualify that as folk having moved those songs into a folk style presentation? Ed |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,Janice Date: 09 Jul 01 - 02:03 PM Jeri says, "I'll bet Steve's on some people's lists." He's certainly on mine from the day he singled me out and started singing "Baby, let me buy you some tacos. We can go to this placed called Paco's. I'd do anything in this God almighty world if you'd just let me buy you a taco." Then he started singing verses about jalapenos, refried beans, salsa picante (which he rhymed with "Jimmy Durante"), Monterrey Jack queso (rhymed with "It only costs one peso"), etc. My first reaction was "Why me?" But by the time he finsihed I nearly died laughing. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST Date: 09 Jul 01 - 04:05 AM music is not a genre course it is |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 08 Jul 01 - 11:03 PM Well, at least write him, man!! The notion may have not crossed his mind. His kids should be recording him, but they may not know how to get him drunk.... Your call of course -- I just feel strongly someone like that ought to have their beauty captured for the future... A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,RobDale Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:07 PM I guess I just wanted to thank you all for reminding me about Pat. I'll decline on that project. He's a couple a thousand miles away. And though many of the definitions here I may be a folksinger, I know I am not a folklorist. Pat has been asked to record before. I hope that he does. But even more so, I hope some kid is learning his songs in some nice warm Newfoundland kitchen. We do have some fun discussions here. I appreciate that. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:04 PM Art: If anyone has the brazen idiocy to try to tell you you weren't what you was, I recommend W.C. Fields' advice: "Give him an evasive answer...tell him to go fuck himself!". Fields, I believe, also coined the equally appropriate remark (maybe it was to Mayer of MGM): "You, sir, are a no-good sonuvabitch; I would not piss in your ear if your brain were on fire!!" Take yer pick! Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Art Thieme Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:14 PM I've said what a folksinger is to me in tons of other threads. That is why !!!!!!!!!!!! and ??????????? is an apropriate posting for me to make here. That said, I was a folksinger for 40 years. I knew what I was----and I was that. Many, lately, try to tell me that, after all, I wasn't one. As Irving Berlin said to George Gershwin, "George, you and I are the only ones left, and to hell with everybody else !" ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Jon Freeman Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:41 PM Rob, I'd call Pat a town engineer AND a folksinger. Unless of course folk singing is part of town engineer's job. Jon |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Amos Date: 08 Jul 01 - 07:23 PM RobDale: Charge yourself with the mission of encoding Pat's songs somehow -- on tape, CD, vinyl or some digital format -- just so that much history and bright talent is not lost, if it be not too late.... A |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: SINSULL Date: 08 Jul 01 - 06:57 PM I agree with Mr. Thieme. ????!!!! |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: GUEST,RobDale Date: 08 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM I'd been ignoring this tread this while because of the tittle but another thread drew me back here. Here is another point of view. What is a Real Folksinger? I give you Pat. Pat grew up in an isolated village on a remote island off tha coast of Newfoundland. A few times a year my Father would have a group of his drinking buddies come by the house and when they would get him drunk enough, Pat would sing. He'd sing about fishing, hard work, heartbreak and poverty. He'd sing in an amazing voice, sounding nothing you would hear in popular music, or even in folk music from the rest of North America. The songs were hundreds of years old, passed on from generation to generation at kitchen tables in small fishing villiages. Would you call Pat a folksinger? Because he wouldn't. He calls himself a town engineer. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: blt Date: 08 Jul 01 - 02:01 PM Maybe the territory the words folksinger and folk music cover is so broad and has such depth that it is impossible for those of us who are mortal to experience and understand more than a small piece of it. (I can't speak for the immortals among us.) These discussions always remind me of that story of 7 (or was it 9) blind men examining an elephant. blt |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jul 01 - 12:46 PM Agreed. A good trot round the issues, even if at times it looked like turning into a squabble.
You know there are some people around, you say "Good Morning" to them and they'll come back with "What do you mean by that?" squaring up for a fight...
Discussions and arguments shouldn't be confused with brawling. (And since I said that it means it's my opinion, which is another way of saying I think it's true. But it isn't another way of saying it's the only view, any more than it was for Steve.) |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 08 Jul 01 - 12:32 PM Jeri got my point pretty clearly. And, yes, I was trying to provoke some discussion. But, no, I do not believe my way is the only way of looking at the issue. I put forth the extreme view, but I also see the shades of grey. In any event, it has been a pretty decent thread. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: John P Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:32 AM Bravo, Jon. It seems rather obvious, doesn't it? A folksinger is one who sings folksongs. John |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Jon Freeman Date: 08 Jul 01 - 10:04 AM Not the way I read it Jeri. Steve was presenting what makes folk music special to him or perhaps more accurately what he believes folk music is about in a manner that suggests HIS is the REAL (and presumably only) view. Such a presentation will naturally provoke argument. For what it's worth, a "real" folk singer to me is. Anyone who sings folk songs (take that loosly) they chose to sing with enjoyment and some degree of understanding or feeling. Whether they get paid for it, the venues they may choose, whether they also write songs, whether they they like others joining in, etc. is completely irrelevant. Jon |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Jeri Date: 08 Jul 01 - 09:24 AM Deckman, I don't think Steve was bored and needed entertainment. I think he was mainly posting about what makes folk music special to him, and other folks needed to argue for entertainment. Sometimes folks would rather see negatives than positives. I do it myself. (Makes for a short thread if everyone just says "I agree.") When I think of folk music, I think of music one sings or plays to entertain one's self. It's participatory. We have a lot of wonderful professionals who share songs and tunes with us. They're usually very good at what they do, or we wouldn't pay to hear them or their recordings. I'm glad I can listen to them make music. I'm even more glad I can. One big reason I know I can make music is because of folks like Pete Seeger and Sandy & Caroline Paton. This is not inclusive, and other folks have names of other performers who have provoked them to sing. I'll bet Steve's on some people's lists. |
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Subject: RE: A Real Folksinger From: Suffet Date: 08 Jul 01 - 08:52 AM Let me repeat this point: I never said there's anything wrong with making a buck. And there is certainly nothing wrong with getting paid for a performance, a workshop, guitar lessons, studio work, etc. But that's not what folk music is all about. You make the music -- and you get other people to make music with you -- whether you're paid or not. Being a folksinger is a matter of attitude. I would argue that Pete Seeger fits my description of a real folksinger. I am certain we would all agree that Pete Seeger is a professional. When he appears at Carnegie Hall he certainly gets paid. And he is a member of the American Federation of Musicians, so I know he would not do a commercial appearance without getting union scale, at very least. But that doesn't stop Pete making music whenever and wherever he feels like doing so with little or no remuneration. In the past few years I have heard Pete at a Community Environmental Center, when some young apprentices had just built a new yawlboat for the Clearwater. I also heard him at a small song circle, at a child care center, at a rally to save community gardens, and at several meetings of Clearwater committees. I even heard Pete sit in with a group of musicians who get together once a month to play big band standards from the 1930s and '40s. There's nothing quite the same as dancing to the big band sounds of Pete Seeger and the Dutchess County All-Stars (my name for the group, not theirs). In the spring of 1999, Pete came to a 2-hour songwriting class I taught once a week at a high school in Brooklyn, New York. He was there not to put on a show in the usual sense, but to try out and critique the songs the students had written. His only reimbursement was $20 for the taxicab fare from Grand Central Station in Manhattan to the school. And that was only because he was on a tight schedule and didn't have time to take the subway. A year later Pete sang one of those songs at Liberty State Park in New Jersey. Well, actually Pete got up and joined in while Matt Turk, Joel Landy, Sharon Perez-Abreu, and I were singing the song at Liberty State Park. Pete recognized it and liked it so much he just climbed up on stage with his 12-string guitar and began to sing and play! Yes, a person can be what I call a real folksinger and still make a living at it. Just don't expect to make one. For every Pete Seeger, there are ten thousand other really good folk musicians out there holding down non-musical jobs. By the way, Frank Hamilton is also as real as it gets. --- Steve |
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