|
Subject: What is a mule skinner? From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:29 PM What is a mule skinner and why the name? |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:38 PM When my great-uncle was one it meant he drove a team of mules hauling ore in the Colorado Rockies. That's the only definition I've ever heard. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Sorcha Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:39 PM I don't know why "skinner", but it is a mule team driver, or drover. In the Great Basin (US) long teams of mules were used to haul borax from the mines to the railroads. Up to 10 pairs of mules on one wagon. Eytomology of skinner would be interesting, as they don't of course, actually "skin" the mules. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Aug 01 - 07:40 PM Just found this on one site: The term muleskinner means someone who can "skin" or outsmart/train a mule |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:14 PM Probably right, KatL. The word appears in print as far back as 1870 acc. to Merriam Webster. The other possibility is using the whip to "skin" the mules, but I doubt that since mule teams were mostly well-cared for because they raised the income of a muleskinner to above the average. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Susanne (skw) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 08:31 PM Why does the muleskinner in the Muleskinner Blues address the person he's speaking to as 'Good morning Captain'? |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:06 PM Captain was a term of respect for the boss on a job. More often used by negros to whites than whites to whites. Muleskinner Blues- not in DT under that name. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: kendall Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:16 PM I thought it meant that a good "Mule skinner" could take the hide off a mule with his whip. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Aug 01 - 09:42 PM Could be, Kendall, but they wouldn't last very long from that. Also, knowing what I do of my great uncle, greatgrandad who also hauled ore by muletrain in Leadville, CO, my granddad and my dad, anyone around them who did would be liable to get skinned themselves. They did not abide any kind of cruelty to get an animal to do something, not even a mule.:-) kat |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: GUEST,bobbi--my cookie is off again Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:03 PM A mule skinner was an individual that traveled the 'Old West' and slaughtered buffalo... taking hides only, for cash and barter at trading posts. The owner of these trading posts were respectfully addressed at Capt'n (if you wanted a respectable price for your hides)... "Good mornin' Capt'n, good mornin' to you!..." They drove mule teams as the mules could bear the weighty load of all the hides they collected and the heavy wagons they pulled... Unfortunately, they left the meat to rot on the plains, and while the buffalo herds were diminished, the native Americans starved. A mule skinner didn't have a very honorable standing in the community and addressed most people as Capt'n or Boss or, but there was a hell of an over-seas market for buffalo hides so .... $$$$$.. we allowed them.. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: toadfrog Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:13 PM Actually, the term derives by analogy from the older expression "cat skinner," meaning one who drives a Caterpillar tractor. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: GUEST,bobbi Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:29 PM Forgot to address the water boy... Mule skinners traveled the hot barren plains in groups of wagon teams.. It would hardly be worth it to take one wagon out in hostile Indian territory and only hope for one load of hides... An important member of that wagon team was the water boy... After the buffalo slaughter, skinners were busy all day, getting the hides off their kill, and the water boy would run a bucket of water between the skinners so they wouldn't dehydrate and also to rinse their hands from the sticky, slicky blood and hides. Mule skinners didn't smell pleasant.. It was a nasty, gross job, that eventually wiped out a nation, but is was lucrative. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Aug 01 - 10:32 PM Guest Bobbi has a skewed interpretation. The term was used all over the west and in the south for the man who handled a mule team. Captain was a term commonly used for the boss, or other person of importance. The buffalo slaughterers used muleskinners, but much more importantly, merchants who organized supply trains and trading parties, the mining camp merchants and miners and anyone involved in haulage of all kinds. Mule teams were faster than oxen and are very smart in picking their way through rough bits where mis-steps could mean a broken leg. A good mule team and skinner could get work when others used the pick or begged. As an employee or self-employed, the muleskinners were important in the development of the west and anywhere else where railroads,rivers and canals were lacking. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Sorcha Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:03 PM Mules are smarter than horses and can haul heavier loads but you have to treat them right. Mules "know" how much they can haul and will refuse to haul more than that. All the whipping in the world will not get a mule to haul a load too heavy. Hence, stubborn as a mule. Mules also do not need as much water or feed as horses so they were preferred as draft animals. We still have not found just why the word "skinner" was used. No one refers to "horse skinners" or "ox skinners". I don't believe that it was the whip thing---whip a mule and you have Trouble with a capital T. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Amos Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:16 PM The same candidate states he can "pop his initials down on a mule's behind". I believe long trains of mules in team were used, and a long-lashed whip was used to supplement the emphasis of traces and reins. Not as punishment which as anyone who has ridden a mule knows is directly counterproductive. More as incentive. You pop the tip of the long lash just offside their head and they pull off in the opposite direction. The term skinner, I have always believed, meant someone who could manage mules, but derives from the concept that one _could_ pop the whip artfully enough to flay them, not that one would. This is speculation on my part. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Amos Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:22 PM Here's an excerpt from a website on Western American history:
Mule Skinners and Freight WagonsThe Mule skinner was a professional individual sometimes called a teamster whose sole purpose was to keep his wagon pulled by mules, under control and moving. The mule skinner actually rode one of the mules and guided the entire team with a single rein which was called a jerk line. An experienced mule skinner knew the personality of every one of his mules and could make them into a magical running machine whereas an inexperienced teamster found them to be obstinate and stubborn Speed was of essential importance out in the west and the mules could pull wagons at 2 miles per hour. A team of oxen usually pulled at about 2 1/2 miles per hour. General stores would specify mule teams to carry their freight of food and other perishable items. The draw back to mules were that their grain had to be hauled with them, the Indians would steal mules to ride them and mule meat tasted terrible according to the teamsters During the 1800's the mule was in constant demand for civilian and military freighting. Not only were the mules better foragers, they kept better footing in treacherous terrain then the horses. A pair of mules could cost anywhere from two to four hundred dollars during this time period. Of all the mules, the ones from Missouri were the most prized and the reputation continues even today Mules were also used to pull the stagecoaches on the western end of the stage run, but the men were still referred to as stagecoach drivers The most famous mule teams were the Death Valley twenty mule teams that hauled borax across the desert to the railroad. Each team actually had 18 mules and 2 horses as the wheelers
|
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Sorcha Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:31 PM Cool! Thank you Amos. But why "skinner" instead of drover etc is still not answered.........(I love mules) |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Coyote Breath Date: 10 Aug 01 - 11:46 PM drover was more of an Eastern and European designation, I think. I could ask one of the locals. Living in Missouri is living in the heart of "mule country". I pass a handsome "buckskin" in a pasture with five other mules each morning on my exercise ride. Spose I could ask him?! When we move up to Wyoming we hope to acquire two horses and at least four mules. They are slower but more reliable, especially in the high country. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:04 AM Well, I'm headed off to the Palliser Pass area of the Rockies next week and we will be travelling into camp with a string of mules, so if you can wait a couple of weeks, I'll ask one of the muleskinners that will be with us what "skinner" means, although I suspect that they might not come to a consensus on the answer either. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 12:11 AM Thnaks, Amos. My greatuncle, Ivan Crawford, who as I said was a muleskinner in Leadville, CO, in the 1880's, had an article published on just what muleskinning was in that country and it had everything to do with hauling ore, etc. and nothing to do with the decimation of the buffalo. I came across the article when in junior high. My teacher had a stack of issues of an old Colorado magazine. We had to pick an article to read and report on. I grabbed that one because of the name, found out is was our Ivan Crawford and it was a fascinating story. He went on to graduate from Ann Arbor and teach. I am now on the trail of finding a copy through the CO Historical Soc. Coyote Breath, there are a couple of us in Wyoming. If you need any info, etc. give me a holler by PM, okay? Thanks, kat |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: The Shambles Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:04 AM Thank you all for that. Having recently had a first and a close experience with mules (certain parts of me may never recover), I must agree that they are fine and intelligent beings. Even if their tendency to wish to walk right to the edge on bends, to look down to he sheer drop below, and taking their rider with them to look also, is a little unsettling.
The explanation of 'skinner' coming from the buffalo slaughtering days, may not be a popular idea, but I tend to think that that is probably where the term originates?
Was the term used before this activity? I have not yet seen any convincing alternative for the term........ |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: kendall Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:15 AM Kat, I believe the term "skinner" was nothing more than an idle boast. Seems to me I remember Jimmy Rodgers singing about "skinning" a mule, but, of course he didn't mean that literally. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Aug 01 - 08:02 AM Another area where the mule skinner played a large part in was the building of the southern (USA) levee systems where they hauled dirt & I've read that more material was used here than for the Great Wall of China. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Pontiac Joe Date: 11 Aug 01 - 09:08 AM Good history lesson, not sure about the "skinner" part but I do know thats where the Teamsters union got the name and the wheel and horse logo. I like mules also but where I live in Muhlenberg township in Pennsylvania our high school mascot is the "Muhls" Bartholamuhl to be exact. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: GUEST,Nick Date: 11 Aug 01 - 10:22 AM They say there is more than one way to skin a cat. How many are there and what are they? |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM In on of the online dictionaries, it refers one to "Muleteer" when looking up "mule skinner." It lists 1870 for first usage of mule skinner. The definition for muleteer is as follows:
Main Entry: mu.le.teer |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:42 PM I hate the skin a cat expression just for the negative connotations regarding my pet cats, BUT here is an interesting bit baout its history: MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT From Mike Reilly: "Anything interesting in the origin of There's more than one way to skin a cat?" To a lexicographer, all phrases are interesting, it's just that some of them are more interesting than others ... There are several versions of this saying. Charles Kingsley used the older British form in Westward Ho! in 1855: "there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with cream", meaning that there are good ways of doing something, and then there are foolish ways, one of the latter being to give a cat cream in the hope of killing it. Mark Twain used your version in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court in 1889: "she was wise, subtle, and knew more than one way to skin a cat", that is, more than one way to get what she wanted. The latter version seems to have nothing to do with the American English term to skin a cat, which is to perform a type of gymnastic exercise.
|
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 01:59 PM I am having fun with this, today. Here is a neat thing about a lowly mule skinner who was pretty smart, but didn't get much credit: Greatest Discovery No.2 Mount Wilson Observatory was built above the badlands of Pasadena and for many years all supplies went up by mule-train. A smart - but poor - Pasadena mule-skinner, name of Milton Humason, took a job as janitor at the Observatory, to feed himself between trips. Milton was a quick learner and began assisting the high-class Astronomers. The 'top brass' was Harlow Shapley - later Director at Harvard. One day (c.1920) Milton brought to Shapley a photo-plate of the Andromeda Nebula (M31), which Shapley at that time thought of as a 'cloud of gas' inside the Milky Way. Humason had put arrows on the back of the plate - pointing to some small specks which he suggested were variable stars - Cepheids. [Ie. that the 'nebula' was beyond the limits of the Milky Way] Shapley haughtily brushed off Milton's arrows, telling him the idea was "rubbish". A year or so later, working for Hubble (guy they named the Space Telescope for), Humason brought up the matter again. Hubble checked (using Henrietta Leavitt's published key to the Cepheid variables) and found they were stars, were Cepheids and were at least 900,000 light years away. About 10 × the size of the then-known Universe ! Hubble published news of the breakthrough in 1924. Importance For the first time it was known that something existed outside the Milky Way. The Andromeda 'nebula' was reclassified as the Andromeda Galaxy. The first we knew of outside our own !
|
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:05 PM From what I have gleaned, kat, is correct, despite what some would prefer to believe, given the brutality which occured in the "settling" of North America.
The North American term "skin" hence "skinner" or teamster, means to outsmart or solve a problem, and probably derives from the meaning of the expression, "there is more than one way to skin a cat (dog, or by some sources, an abbreviation of catfish), which in itself means "to solve a problem". Mark Twain fist used the expression "skin a cat" in his book the Connecticut Yankee.
Anything deriving from more brutal handling misses the mark completely.
A mule team would never be flayed. "Skinning any mule alive" means out-thinking the animal, it DOES NOT mean whipping in the literal sense, especially when your life and livelihood in "the new world" depended on keeping your livestock alive and well. "Popping your initials" (branding) a mules behind, would also require consumate skill and smarts to stay alive, they are one animal I wouldn't care to rile when I was near their hind end. I use a lunging whip to train and exercise horses and I assure you the object is NEVER to make contact, but only to get their attention and have them move away from the noise of the crack. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:15 PM ah kat! that's what I get for pulling up this thread this morning and then getting distracted for an hour or so before sending the message. I never saw your last two or three posts. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 01 - 02:33 PM LOL, 'sokay, Mets, I was on a roll and you've just added some good info to it. Thanks! |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 01 - 03:25 PM I would also like to thank Amos for the quote. A key word is "professional." It took skill to train and control a team of mules. It was an important job in the settling of the west, as I have tried to point out also. Anyone who has never ridden a mule can get the experience on Molokai, riding down the pali to the leprosarium and the site of Father Damien's mission. It is an all-day trip with a break for lunch. The trail always has patches of loose rock and some small washouts and it is quite an education to watch the mules pick their way down and up the cliff and how they "train" the inexperienced rider who tries to impose his will. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: CRANKY YANKEE Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:04 PM Before May of 1957, The only way anyone sang "Muleskinner Blues" Was the way Jimmy Rogers or Bill Monroe sang it. Then in May 1957 The Control Tower Chief Controller at Suffolk County Air Force Base near Westhampton Beach New York (Long Island) T/Sgt Jody Gibson (me) recorded "Good Morning Captain" an entirely different way of singing this song, and with an entirely different melody. It was an instant "Hit". Only distributed in New England, New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, it sold 400,000 + 45rpm records and 75,000 78 rpm's. One of the reasons for it's success is that Alan Freed was my manager's father in law so it got a lot of play on the AM "Pop" and "Rock and Roll" radio programs. It was instantly covered by Sheb Wooley, who sang it "word for word and note for note" exactly the same as I'd done it. Dolly Parton also recorded my version years later. Now, this is the way all the "Traditionalist" and "Folk Music Purists" (folk music fascists?) sing it. That is, until they read this post, then they'll be frantically searching for old Jimmy Rogers records. Of course, my version is, now, "worthless", as I'm still alive. (72 years old this month) My TETRA record of "Good Morning Captain" is the first track on my new CD "Spanning the Decades" ($15.00, includes shipping) from ROSE ISLAND Recording and Music Co. 36 Charles St. Newport, Rhode Island 02840. As Far as I know, Kat/Katlaughing has the straight poop as to what a Muleskinner is. "Captain" , of course, is the boss of the job and the one who does the hiring. The rest of the song is, I guess, the muleskinner's resume. some of you have previous versions of "Spanning the Decades" that do not inclued "Good Morning Captain". If so, send me a PM with your mailing adress on it and I'll send you a tape of Good Morning Captain, 21 Years (the "B" side) and Worried Man Blues, a composite of TETRA and ROSE ISLAND (recent) recordings with the traditional "Worried Man Blues" lyrics. We used the 5-string banjo instrumental break for background to sing the traditional verses to. twice, and, sang harmony with myself on the choruses to cover up the "too much echo" on the original TETRA recording. This composite is track No. 3 on the CD. SINSULL and Dick Greenhouse have the new issue of Spanning the Decades, and I'm sending Rick Fielding one too.
|
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 11 Aug 01 - 04:35 PM Did any one else besides me, ever build the wonderful little model of the mules and wagon that you could get through 20 Mule Team Borax Laundry Soap in the fifties? I always thought the powder blue colour of the cart was a mistake on the part of the manufacturer of the model, until I had the opportunity of veiwing the real thing in Death Valley a couple of years back. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 11 Aug 01 - 05:03 PM Dicho, hopefully the mules on the Palliser this year will be as sure footed as those on Molaki, they are going to be carrying in a couple of bottles of my single malt, amongst other stuff, when we ride in and that is a pretty damned precious cargo too. I would never trust a good bottle of of the Singleton or Highland Park to a horse.*BG* |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:12 PM Highland Park? Sheer Heaven! |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Barry Finn Date: 11 Aug 01 - 06:43 PM Wasn't President Reagan a bit(bad) actor on Death Valley Days? Barry |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:48 AM The Buffalo Hunters. This article does mention both mules and skinners. Not conclusive but suggestive. Make up your own mind but it does not make very pleasant reading however. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:09 PM Huh? not suggestive Shambles, finding the words "mule" and "buffalo skinners" in the same article, does not give credence to Guest bobbi's fanciful interpretation. As noted before, muleskinner's sole profession was to drive and care for his team. Who do you think fed and tended the mules, repaired harnesses and maintained and repaired the wagon. I can assure you, that caring for two working horses consumes quite a bit of time; maintaining and caring for a whole team of mules and ancillary equipment would leave little time for the bit of recreational knife work as recounted in that article. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:29 PM The shallow article posted by Shambles has nothing to do with muleskinners and their teams. The article focuses on the buffalo hunters without elucidating the reasons for the increased decimation of the herds after 1850. With the buffalo gone, the natives would be forced into submission and the country could be opened up to the cattle ranchers, and later, the farmers and informal homesteaders. It was unofficial government policy. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:46 PM Highland Park is indeed heaven!...Mules are to be trusted with nectar of the Gods, not horses! Great thread & research, folks. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Bill D Date: 12 Aug 01 - 12:49 PM and a website called Muleskinner.com ought to have SOME insight on the question! They say 'skin' means outsmart. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 01 - 04:06 PM What is a 'mule outsmarter' and why the name?
I struggle with the strength of feeling on this one.
Logic leads me to believe that the term probably arrives from an trade combining both mules and skinning. Given the times and revenues then gathered from animal hides, surely it is far more likely that the term comes from the literal meaning of the word skinner?
About as repectable as the term singer/songwriter. Or is songwriter a term for outsmarting also? I have no doubt that the term came to refer to a mule teamster, I just question the origin of the term..... |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 12 Aug 01 - 06:32 PM Shambles, Bill D's link is right from the horse's, er mule's mouth, "to skin" in North American slang, means to outsmart, ignore the red herring.
A mule seems to have a greater sense of self preservation than a horse, therefore it requires more finesse to bend their will or rather assure it enough, that it should do man's bidding. Or maybe it is just simply that they are, in fact, smarter than horses. Can't see what could be more straight forward than that, but then again, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.*BG* Bill D, re Highland Park, my point exactly. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:05 PM This might offer some elucidation regarding skinning a mule. Your right kat, sometimes you get on a roll and get carried away. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:16 PM You may indeed lead a horse to water but can you lead a mule? Too many bloody animals in this thread anyway, mules horses and now red herrings...... |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Sorcha Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:23 PM Well, maybe we should add some "old blind dogs" just to muddy the waters further.......(grin) |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 01 - 07:46 PM Mets, excellent article! Thanks! |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Metchosin Date: 12 Aug 01 - 10:45 PM not if he doesn't want to go Shambles, hence the need for finesse. |
|
Subject: RE: What is a mule skinner? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Aug 01 - 11:17 PM Doesn't look like we can lead Shambles to water (or single malt). As a New Mexican born and bred, I know what Sophia Sarember is saying. If a mule takes a dislike to you nothing can be done to make him cooperate. If you treat him well. he will give his utmost. |
| Share Thread: |
