Will you write an Email for Shambles?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: GUEST,_gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 01 - 02:53 AM

Shambles....thank you

I have written....and expressed my view to your counsel

The law .... IS THE LAW !!! .... it MUST be UPHELD !!!! .... or we will quickly descend into anarchy.

Without the law .... there would be no "copyright-police," or "guilds" or "unions" .... my GOD man .... without the "LAW" there would be no-one who could tell "mad max" what he can....or cannot post on his little MC site.

Have you lost ALL respect for authority????

Come to your senses QUICK!!!

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 07:09 PM

Kimberlin - see my answer on the part TWO thread

PART 2 HERE

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Kimberlin
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:48 PM

As a public servant employed by Weymouth Council (but not in licensing) I am probably one of the few people to agree that if a licence is required by any pub due to mplaying of music than that requirement should be enforced universally whatever the background to the case. If you do not enforce rules universally, but only when you feel like it, anarchy entails. By this I mean that once you enforce it for one pub you must enforce it for all.

However that said this law is absolutely ridiculous as it is written (ie without an amateur performer exclusion) as it means every pub requires the licence as you can guarantee that more than once a year "happy birthday" will be sung and "Auld lang syne" will be rendered at new year.

The law needs to be changed to exclude all amateur performances from the scope of the law whether it is new music or traditional music. The fact that through this forum we support folk & roots music is irrelevant to the argument - the key factor is whether the performers are being paid whether they are playing folk, rock, reggae, jazz, Bangra, classical or whatever. All musicians whatever it is that they play should support a campaign to keep live, amateur, music venues open and unlicensed other than for sensible items such as noise levels and safety matters.

However before that change occurs a campaign needs to be aimed at the Local Government Association in the hope that an agreed national code of practice can be issued for the UK that means all local authorities interpret the rules in the same way particularly if, as seems sensible, an agreement is reached nationally that enforcement of the need for a PEL does not occur where the musicians/dancers are unpaid and any collection made on the night for dancing etc goes 100% to charity and not "club" funds.

The law is stupid but so is the current erratic policy regarding enforcement and I am sure as many people will be annoyed if they find their Council is not collecting revenue it could collect as are currently annoyed by what they see as over zealous enforcement of the current stupidly worded law!!!

I certainly hope that my Council tax is being kept down through the persuit of income by relevant officials of both the County and the District Councils - hence the dilemma raised by this daft Act of Parliament!

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:20 PM

PART TWO HERE

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:11 PM

That last paragraph went wrong:

For example: "No, thisd is not a music session as such. This is a meeting organised by the Weymouth Campaign for Live Music, which is planning to put up candidates at the next local election in defence of our right to have music sessions."

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:08 PM

Remember, while what we say may not be seen as worth running as a story, what is said to use by officials and by politicians is much more likely to be seen as newsworthy. That is one reason why it is always worth keeping on writing the letters, even though the answers are laughable.

And one letter leads to another - I would think that Tom Grainger's reply to Roger of Sheffield would be the springboard for a letter to Lord Bassem, asking him what he thinks about the way that Weymouth Council evidently regards his advice as so insignificant.

Again, as Shanmbles poiints out "They will have to defend the policy to those that would elect them." So what is the position as regards music and singing as part of an elctoral public meeting?

Weymouth Campaign for Live Music, which is plannig to put up candidates at the next local election in defence of our right to have music sessions."

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 05:05 PM

This thread is a bit big to load now.

Write an email for Shambles Part 2

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:48 PM

I've had Mr Gilmour's standard reply, about the Yetties performing in the Bolshoi Ballet or whatever. Here is the reply I've sent him:

Dear Mr Gilmour

I'm sure Weymouth is a delightful place and Weymouth Council is keen on promoting the arts. But that isn't what I asked.

My query in my email of August 18th was whether the council has a policy in place that regards informal music sessions, in pubs or in other places as "public entertainment" which requires there to be a PEL (except in the case in a pub where the two-in-a-bar exemption applies).

In my second email on August 25th I simplified the question, and asked: "Am I right in understanding that there are in fact no circumstances in which it is possible to sing or play a musical instrument, (apart from the case where this is being done within a private home with no visitors, or in the course of a music lesson), when this will not be counted as "public entertainment" by Weymouth Council?"

Your statement that "the Council did not make the law, but is required to enforce it" does not really answer either question. However from your response I take it that the answer to both questions is "yes". In other words, noone can make music or sing (except within a private home), except where a Public Entertainment Licence has been obtained. Presumably this includes carol singers, aside from church carol services.

It appears to me that the council has misunderstood the law in this matter. The law does not require that, when a group of friends, (or indeed a single individual in a coffee bar for example) make music or sing for their own enjoyment, this should be treated as constituting ipso facto a "public entertainment".

At least this appears to be how the law in question was understood when, in the House of Lords on December 11th, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton), replying on behalf of HM Government to a question from The Lord Bishop of Oxford, said "Whether members of the public who sing on licensed premises count as performers is a matter for the licensing authority to decide, depending on the circumstances".

Moreover Weymouth's position doesn't seem in the spirit Home Office circular 13/2000, which says "The purpose of licence conditions is to ensure safety, minimise nuisance and prevent crime and disorder. The nature of any conditions that are attached to a licence inevitably varies according to the venue, the event and local considerations. But there are concerns that some conditions are excessive, that they replicate other regulations or are inappropriate to the premises or event. Compliance with conditions clearly adds to the cost of the licence and it is therefore important that local authorities ensure that they are reasonable."

In any case, it appears that for the time being Weymouth Council policy is to exclude the possibility of informal musicmaking without a PEL. So until this policy has been changed, or until it has been overturned in court as inconsistent with other legislation relating to human rights, Weymouth is clearly not the place to go to if you value the freedom to do this, as part of your holiday.

If I have misunderstood the position in any way, please let me know, so that I can correct the information which I will include on my website and pass on to prospective visitors to our shores. I will tell people that though Weymouth is undoubtedly "an enlightened and fun loving council ", especially if they want to go and listen to other people being paid to make music, it is not the place to go if they wish to make music themselves just for their own enjoyment, and without any payment.

Yours

Kevin McGrath

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:45 PM

After reading Roger's reply from Mr Grainger I really do not think that it is worth wasting time in sending any more emails to the officers.

Emails to the councillors (copied to the local paper) may stir them into questioning the officer's actions. The councillors after all have now endorsed the officers actions as policy. They will have to defend the policy to those that would elect them.

The councillors contact details can be found here..Weymouth and Portland Borough Council.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 04:33 PM

They have had the comments of more than one musician for over eight months. I now doubt if they have even read them, let alone collate or pass them on to the Government

We have our MPs to do this anyway.

We do not need this small West Country council to do anything other than address the problem they have created by ignoring musicians interests and by now ignoring a Government Minister's answer to the specific question of who decides if members of the public are performers.

They have tried to hide behind the law and passed the buck for all this time and now will decide when comments from musicians are "sufficient" enough for them to pass on?

Is this really the only constructive measure they can come up with, to deal with the effect their own policy is having on traditional events?

Alice they now understand the size of the problem. But only because many good folk like yourself have taken the time and trouble to point it out to them.

They cannot change the law and are not even offering to try, only to pass on the comments we have sent to them on to someone else, to deal with.

All they need to do is use the quite staggering powers of discretion they have demonstrated to me over this period, to try and enable folk events instead of stretching their interpretation of the law to prevent them.........

To add weight to any points we could do with examples of cutailments/ infringements rather than unsustantiated statements.

Who do they think they are and who do they think they are talking to?

The only curtailments/ infringments that will be going to central government are the ones that they alone are responsible for.....These will be substantiated I can assure them........Rant over...........

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Alice
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 03:44 PM

"curtailing pleasures and pastimes" is a phrase that lets me know that they are starting to understand the problem and communicating to you that they may understand the problem. A list of times, dates, and incidents that substantiate that the law is "curtailing pleasures and pastimes" should be sent to the "appropriate Govt departments". I know the Cove incident has already been written about. What other specific incidents do they need? Still, isn't their interpretation of the law different than other towns that don't have a problem with musical "pleasures and pastimes"?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 03:13 PM

Friday I sent this email message to Tom Grainger

The discussion in Hansard (11 dec 2000) seems to suggest that the licencing authority is able to interpret the act, At present I take it five amateur musicians playing quiet acoustic instruments (without an audience) would need a PEL while a famous crowd drawing entertainer playing a loud amplified instrument would not - for safety and noise considerations?

is the act not open to interpretation as you understand it?

I hope he won't mind me sharing the reply

...I just now got this back from Tom Grainger Cc Sue Allen,Melanie Earnshaw

Hansard is of course only a record of parliamentary discussions, not a statement of the law. What lord bassam said was "...depending on the circumstances" I outlined some of the more extremes of circumstances that could apply in my last email ie informal, unplanned sing song thru to professional regular acts. In so far as your examples are concerned, in principle 5 folk muscians quietly playing acoustic instruments are likely to require a PEL (or at least the premises in which the playing takes place is likely to need one) and the sole performer is unlikely to need one. We can only deal with the law as it stands, but one of the things the Council has said is that if sufficient musicians tell us that they think the law should be changed because it is curtainling pleasures and pastimes then tell us. We can't do anything directly, but we will pass informed comments to the appropriate Govt departments. To add weight to any points we could do with examples of cutailments/ infringements rather than unsustantiated statements.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 02:52 PM

Call that a clicky Gareth !! You can get to it from there but the links back up the thread take you straight there

The letter I wrote to my MP was about my right to play music in a group greater than two in his constituancy. I said I might like to start a session here but the publicity over the situation in Weymouth looked like it would be prohibitively expensive to do so. I also mentioned that my instruments are different to those used in classical music and they were recently made by skilled UK Craftsmen. I asked how could such a cultural experience as freely exchanging traditional music and song be open to what seemd to be taxation? I asked him to take up the matter with relevant departments and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, The Rt Hon Tessa Jowell MP
I sent lots of background info too, nicely typed - just the odd typo.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 01:48 PM

I retrieved the following off the Radio 2 massage/bulitin board,

re: Session legal? - PEL - session tax? Mel McClellan - HOST - 28 Aug 2001 10:33 - 25th post There's been a lot of coverage about PELs in the folk press lately and action is being taken. The EFDSS and Musicians' Union backed a Musicians' Day of Action in July and various groups have been set up, eg. The Campaign For Live Music, to battle the legislation. If lots of us get involved, maybe we can make a difference

Look as if some results are starting to come through

Here is Clikky for Radio 2 board Click here
please note that you will have to register.

And don't forget those E Mails clickkys in thread.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 10:36 AM

I am working on a early day motion, and will advice progress when I can.

I too am a great believer in starting the day well, with an early motion. Be speaking to you when you eventually get out of the John.

Sorry to lower the tone.....

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 01 - 09:54 AM

Here's a link that looks useful Campaign for Live Music (CaLM) - I'll post this in the various threads about this currently with us.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 08:34 PM

The McGrath / Roger of Sheffield.

I regret that there are Parliamentary Rules on this. An MP is not allowed to ask a question in Parliament about matters concerning another MP's constituency.

I speak as one who has drafted the odd parilamentary question for an MP from time to time, and may well do so again in the future.

Thus anything must be taken to include Harlow/ Your part of Sheffield, or of deemed national interest.

I am working on a early day motion, and will advice progress when I can.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 08:05 PM

Good luck with lobbying your MP - we should all do that. I'll send our man some stuff, and no doubt get a nebulous but friendly letter back, the way one does. At least he's got an email address, which makes it easier - though I think it's a good idea to send real letters in real envelopes as well.

One problem with MPs is they have strict limits on what they will take up - first reaction of most MPs to hearing anything like "Weymouth" will be to say "Oh that's a matter for the Weymouth MP, not me". If there's a local example of a session under threat, it'll be easier to get them interested.

In terms of political lobbying, I suppose what is needed is to find somewhere an MP who is willing to see this as a national issue, rather than just a local one, and get them to put an "early day motion" before the House of Commons, which we can then try to get our own MPs to sign.

But trying to find ways of getting favourable media attention might be more productive, and more fun.

Shambles is right enough about the fact that most people in England don't care much about traditional activities of this kind. But the rules at present don't just apply to us, and there are almost certainly other people who are at least potentially affected. Remember, it isn't just in pubs that these restrictions apply, and it isn't just our kinds of folk music. We need to be finding allies.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:44 PM

This must be a good idea and one that can only help, for the battles under the current legislation may be won locally but the war can only be won nationally with new and sensible legislation.

We are the only ones that care specifically about the effect on traditional activities........

If we don't get involved now, the new could be worse than the old?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Aug 01 - 01:26 PM

Speak now if you think it's a bad idea, otherwise I am handing in a pile of background info with an explanation to my MP and asking him to pursue the matter with the relevant departments . I am using the Weymouth info as evidence and pointing out that other councils waste time and effort in the same way and for what purpose?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 05:02 PM

E-X-T-E-R-M-I-N-A-T-E

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 04:10 PM

Roger - The Time Lord strikes again ! Its not a bad error if you compare the actions of certain councils with DALEK's

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 03:15 PM

I just tried replying to someone on the R2 site but the connection here was really slow, so I kept on trying, and eventually it went


.....How surprised I was when the page refreshed, saying that my message would appear shortly........surprised as the background had changed and I was now looking at the Doctor Who message board !!!!!!

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 26 Aug 01 - 05:37 AM

Its up there now
I suppose the problem for a lot of people who would like to comment on this is that they don't want to drop their favourite pub in hot water. I have only commented in a theoretical sense on the issues to those I have contacted to avoid any problem - unless I am talking about Weymouth which is out in the open anyway

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:16 PM

Posted me message - mind you, it's not up their yet, they hold it in a queue before posting it. Not a patch on the Mudcat, or even the WeyBoard. I suppose it allows them to censor the messages if need be.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 05:10 PM

They should be interested at Radio 2, their board has the following question at the top
Have you been to any good sessions lately? Where's your favourite?

I notice that the HOST Mel McClellan has not commented yet - do you think he is taking advice on the best course of action, to ignore or delete the offending messgages?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 04:42 PM

Sorry thought I had but that could have been the other thread
R2 folk/acoustic message board
you have to register first by providing them with an email address

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 04:37 PM

Found it!BBC 2 Folk and Acoustic Message Board

Off to leave a message. Though does anyone read them other than us? Thye probably do, buit I wish they'd stick their heads above the parapets sometimes.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 04:28 PM

Put in a link RofS. Either a blue clicky or just the URL.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 25 Aug 01 - 02:01 PM

...will someone join me on the Radio2 Folk and Acoustic message board? its very lonely there right now

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 08:22 PM

The Shambles is away and computerless untill Tuesday, he has asked me to continue in his abscence - don't know why - there are others who are better at this than me !

And if Catters are being bored by this - well your folk night may be the next to suffer !!

Well thank you all - I've been a bit naughty and checked up the traffic figures on the Website since putting it up.

Nice number of hits but joking apart.

The battle in not won, we need to continue the fight, so if you have a moment or two to spare keep those Emails and letters comming in

The addresses of Weymouth Councillors and the Bullitin Board can be found Here

An E-Mail to the ( [e-mail] )Director of Tourism

An E- Mail to the cheif executive of the Council [e-mail] ( what used to be known as the town clerk

And the Local paper, the Dorset Echo [e-mail]

It takes little effort to copy an E Mail !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NB if the Echo runs true to most local papers the letters section will close for press at about 1700 hrs GMT on the Monday of each week.

Remenber it's not just those bits published that count. Its the continued pressure that counts - this is why we ask you to keep it comming, and spend the odd postage stamp on letters to Councillors.

Have a good, musical weekend y'all

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 05:18 PM

As promissed here is a webpage including the Echo Letters page

Here it is

Again many thanks to you all who submitted.

Gareth pp The Shambles.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 04:16 PM

Deputising for The Shambles as he has gorn away over the Bank Holiday weekend - Yes he needs a break !!

Herewith the text of the letters published in the Echo this week.

I put the JPG file Roger sent me through "TextBridge v9" and then "Word 2000" Any mistakes are mine.

I will put a Webpicture of the Newspaper up later tonite - if I am sober enough.

Music policy is down to council WILL the borough council please finally explain to the people of Weymouth and Portland why they choose to hold a policy that considers more than two members of public singing along together in a pub as performers? As a consequence this activity is illegal and will be prevented without a public entertainment licence (held by only six par cent of licensed premises) . This stifle policy also prevents Morris dancing on private land. Current legislation does not force them to do this, as they claim. This is made clear in the following quote from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State Home Office (Lord Bassan of Brighton) replying on behalf of HM Government to 2 questions from The Lord Bishop of Oxford in The House of Lords Entertainment Legislation Debate (Monday, December 11, 2000) "Whether members of the public who sing on licensed premises count as performers is a matter for the licensing authority to decide depending on the circumstances." (I have supplied the council with the full minutes of this debate). This clearly demonstrates that as the licensing authority it is the council's decision and councils policy alone. Why do we have this ridiculous policy? If the Council is not pre pared to defend it! then will they please take urgent steps to change it before many more valuable act activities are lost ? ROGER GALL Wakehan Portland

Make song and dance on policy I HAVE recently learned that public houses in the Weymouth and Portland area are being discouraged from holding music sessions and from having Morris dancing. My understanding is that the discouragement takes the form of requiring the public house to get an entertainment licence for an open music session. On my last trip to England Morris performances and music sessions were the most enjoyable parts of my visit. I look forward to bringing my family for a visit. But I certainly would want avoid any parts of the country where these things were not available. Can you tell me if there is any chance these policies will be reversed soon? JACOB BLOOM Arlington MA. USA

I AM an American Morris dancer folk Singer and music teacher looking forward to a visit to England next summer to make music with friends new and old, not as a paid performer but as a friend among friends. I am distressed to learn that the age-old tradition of making music in a public house is being threatened by what seems little more than bureaucracy . A licensed house can only benefit lit from peaceful music making or dancing, and indeed, could suffer from Overly-stringent laws requiring public entertainment licenses, I strongly request that Weymouth and Portland Borough Council urgently re examining both the legality and wisdom of this policy and also establish if this policy has been made in the best interests of all the visitors and residents of Weymouth and Portland. I do hope to visit and sins and dance in the home of my ancestors, freely and without fear of reprisal! ALLISON ALDRICH COBB Keene, New Hampshire USA

Hope this HTML works

If it don't can a Muslef/Joclone please fix or delete

Gareth - for The Shambles

and Roger - if you see this over the weekend you owe me at least three choruses of Crawshaw Bailey

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: running.hare
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 03:04 PM

"......sounds like mine Lizabee, do you think they are sending out a standard reply????????? "

proberbly, & a rather deffencive & evasive one at that! I still haven't the faintest idear when I will/won't be breaking the law in weymouth! What if I hum along to one of the'se backing music things most shops have. infact are those leagal???

"a wide ranging programme from the Yetties to the Bolshoi Ballet." So if your famouse you very welcome in weymouth, but local kidswill have to bugger off some where else to make a name for them selves? Is that what the council's saying?

"I should also point out it is not the pub who are objecting to having an entertainment license, but it is one of the musicians" ie, we as musscians have no right to an opinion!

Of course I may have read it wrong?!

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM

They haven't sent me any reply yet. Either they've decided to ignore me, or they're working on a proper reply. Probably the former.

But reading the reply - does that mean there is a Public Entertainment Licence covering the beach all year? OR if you chose to sing a song on the beach outside that two week period, would you be offending against the law?

But of course they have completely ignored the central question, which is "Under what circumstances does Weymouth Council consider that the act of singing or playing a musical instrument becomes something that is to be classed as 'Public Entertainment'?" Which is a pretty simple question.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 01:41 PM

......sounds like mine Lizabee, do you think they are sending out a standard reply?????????

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: running.hare
Date: 24 Aug 01 - 01:26 PM

I thought you' like to see the replie I got from Weymouth & P. council.

"Before you judge us you may find it useful to know the position in Weymouth, and I would be delighted to supply you with the facts.

Weymouth is fully committed to the arts, not just in rhetoric, but in actions.

We provide a fully funded 1000 seat theatre, with a wide ranging programme from the Yetties to the Bolshoi Ballet. The Ocean Room a multi purpose venue (again provided by the Council) can accommodate 400 with a stage. Last year we held a FREE two week music festival on the beach with professional and amateur musicians across every spectrum of music. We have produced a Cultural strategy for the Borough and are currently consulting with the community to ensure that it reflects their needs and desires. We have an Arts Development Offices dedicated to working with groups in the community.

These are not the action of a Council that is opposed to the arts.

For your further information over 80 of the Public Houses in the Borough have an Entertainments License as is required by law. The Council did not make the law, but is required to enforce it. As to the cost, the pub you describe with a small group of people coming together would pay 55 pence per evening for their license, hardly extortionate. I should also point out it is not the pub who are objecting to having an entertainment license, but it is one of the musicians.

Having provided you with the accurate picture, I would ask you in return to tell your friend what an enlightened and fun loving council we are.

Yours

Peter Gilmour Publicity & Community Liaison Services Manager"

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 05:06 PM

Keep up the pressure -

Please use the bullitin board here

Also on that site if you dig you will find a guest/comment book for tourists - Why not use it, particullaly our American and Canadian Cousins.

Snail Mail to the Councillors - address as above clicky will certainly help.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 01:33 PM

I presented Lord Bash'em's comments personally into the Chief Executive's hands a few hors ago. The important bits were indeed underscored in red. He has got the message now........

He did not appear to know about it. Which is a little annoying as I presented to them via my councillor in January 2001.......

I basically requested that they accept that whether more than two members of the public were performers and to be prevented without a PEL, was now their policy.

I asked them to defend it or change it. They are to consider and come back.

The fact that they are even considering anything is a great leap forward and due almost entirely to your efforts. Please keep the pot stirred??

I will come back with more details when it has all sunk in.....

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 02:13 AM

When I write something like this, I want it to stay written--There are a number of points that really need to be spelled out, with the intent of finally getting them to realize that there is a serious issue here--

As to the Weymouth Bulletin board, I think you've covered it pretty well--for myself, I lost it when I saw the post from Sally inquiring about a beach for dogs, and couldn't think of thing to say--

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Sourdough
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 12:40 AM

I have sent a message from the US a few minutes ago.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Susan from California
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 10:48 PM

Well, I sent an email mentioning that I will take my tourist $$ elsewhere if they shut down "sessions". I did give my snail mail address, but I didn't mention that my tourist $$ are sadly limited at this point and for the forseeable future :-) Hope it helps !

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:25 PM

Still, it doesn't take any longer to post to the Weymouth bulletin board than it does to the Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM

Shambles,

I am with you in spirit on this, but we have had a string of difficulties that haven't allowed me the time I need to put my thoughts to page--I will try to get something done next week and put it into the mill--I'll copy you, or even send it for your review before I send it out, as you like--

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 06:11 PM

Keep up the pressure.

Councillors have to answer thier own mail.

Try Here the Weymouth and Portland DC bullitin board & tourst comments You will find Councillors addresses though if you bundle letters in one envelope to the Council offices - address = Members Services Weymouth & Portland Borough Council Council Offices, North Quay, Weymouth, Dorset, England, DT4 8TA

It will be cheaper

Also on the Website you will find a bullitin board. USE IT !

You will also find a comment board/guest book under Tourism. Use It

Now come on you Cousins - The threat of the loss of the US Dollar hurts towns in Britain - To mis-quote Churchill ( or was it FDR ) "the time has come for the New World to come to the rescue of the traditions of the Old World"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 04:41 PM

This appears on Weymouth and Portland's web site, on the entry to their chat room.

Weymouth and Portland's own chat room. No smoking, no drinking or loud music in the chat room......HAVE FUN.

There is a sort of double irony here, don't you think?

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: running.hare
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 02:46 PM

I've replaced my qoute with

"Through the incorporation of music into his works, Hardy strove to preserve the musical traditions of his familiar rural settings."

from the same artical.

hope thats ok, will send email now with a Cc to the echo.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:55 PM

Thanks for all your efforts. But the pressure must continue and grow if at all possible.

The council have never taken this challenge to their authority seriously, thinking that as it was only one musician they had to deal with and he would eventually tire. If the pressure now dies down and fizzles out, their tactic will have been successful. That cannot happen. For it is only US that cares……

You will have seen the official line that has been given to many of those who have written. You will see that the same tactic is being used.

This can be done as it is not done in public. The local paper does not wish to publish any more on the subject, for fear, I assume of upsetting the council who do pay for a lot of advertising. Can we try and get this debate in the public view?

If you express your opinion of Mr Gilmour's position in the local press (and everywhere you can think of) and just copy it to him, even if it does not get published, the council will not know this for sure. If enough short emails or letters are written, with your full address (and phone No), it will make their tactic much more difficult. Especially if you are not local and say you will not be visiting until the policy changes. For they will not wish to be pressured by local Hoteliers and businesses.

[e-mail]

I will post all those that are published (if any).

We have to try and get them to defend their policy that more than two members of the public singing along together, count as performers and will be prevented without a PEL. They have yet to debate it or try and defend it……………They will look ridiculous if they try and they know this.

They hide behind the claim that the law makes them do this, the law does not.

Thanks to everyone for what you have done but we have to keep the pot stirred, and as publicly as possible.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM

I think you're essentially right George - any public entertainment anywhere requires a Public Entertainment Licence, unless there is a specific exemption. The only exemptions I am aware of are for church services, and for pubs, where there is a limited exepmtion covering two-in-a-bar. (Elsewhere even one person providing "Public Entertainment in principle means a Public Entertainment Licence is needed.)

There does not seem to be any clear or agreed definition of what "Public Entertainment" consists of. That means that it is open to a local council to call virtually any activity "Public Entertainment" and see if it stands up in court. That is where sessions come in. The fact that an activity is traditional or has always been accepted does not seem to carry any significant weight in court, though I suspect that it could, if the justices thought it should.

The other factor is that human rights legislation enters into the picture now, and it seems improbable that a court taking this into account would see it as legal to forbid people to sing or play musical instruments for their own enjoyment, so long as this did not cause inconvenience to other people.

Subject: RE: Will you write an Email for Shambles?
From: GeorgeH
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 12:03 PM

McGrath - re: your post of 19th . .

As I recall and understand: a Pub can be licenced for Music (as part of its Drinks licence) - which covers the "2 in a bar" activity, and has traditionally covered Folk performances - which in turn encompass sessions. The PEL thing is ADDITIONAL to this . . .

Does anyone know whether my understanding is correct here?

George