BS: Putting up a white flag

Subject: Putting up a white flag
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:41 PM

One practical problem that occurs to me about this Afghanistan business is that the Taleban introduced a new flag for Afghanistan. It's plain white. Now this could clearly involve some major problems - how are people supposed to indicate that they are surrendering?

Not just soldiers, civilians. There you are in a bombed out cellar, and you want to stick out something that will indicate that you aren't combatants. No good hanging out a sheet or waving a hanky on a stick is it?

And I can imagine troops thinking they've been tricked if they see a white flag outside a building, and then come under fire from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:23 AM

They should have to have a red cross or the peace sign on it, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:31 AM

The red cross is owned by the Red Cross and by medical personnel. In an Arab country it is likely that the symbol the "Red Cross" would use officially would be the flag of the Red Crescent, which is the symbol used by the Arab member countries in. But the red cross would still have an assigned meaning one could not co-opt.

A white flag of truce has no equivalent, I think.... it is what it is.

Hm.

It IS a problem innit?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 04:06 AM

I suspect it is a nasty way of getting your people involved in a war, even when they don't want to be.

How many times will the US troop be gunned down when taking out what they thought was a surrender, or the US fire on a white flag, thinking it to be the Afghan flag, only to be told by a 'grieving' Taliban rep that it was a surrender flag?

If you know that a flag of surrender is white, you'll wave it. If you don't know that your country had introduced a new flag, and that also is white, what are you going to do? It is a very nasty way of doctoring the figures for both innocent victims and martyrs to the cause.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:30 AM

Having a Red Cross on the roof didn't stop that Red Cross warehouse in Kabul getting bombed.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: sophocleese
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:45 AM

That's why they call it a 'surgical strike' McGrath.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From:
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:14 AM

I think the white flag has been their flag for several years. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:26 AM

History teaches us that they will only get one opportunity to shoot someone under cover of a white flag. After that one occasion, the white flag will be ignored until the target is destroyed and most of the enemy are wounded and dead. War is war and we treat it seriously; dont fucking play games Taliban, they wont help you at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:43 AM

The white flag has been around a few years - it's not a gimmick they have suddenly introduced for the purpose of the new war. In fact the Taleban flag isn't just white, it got the "Shahadah" inscribed on it in black Arabic letters -"I bear witness that there is no deity other than Allah and that Muhammad is his servant and Messenger." But in battle conditions, distinguishing it from a flag of surrender could be very tricky, I imagine.

Here is a site about flags of the world, the link being to a page specifically about Afghanistan, which has probably had more flag changes than any other country over thee past century - and they should all be here.

The worry isn't so much that Taleban soldiers will shoot while flying what invaders mistake for a flag of surrender. It's that people trying to surrender, especially civilians - women and chilkdren in particular -will get shot or blown up because their flag of surrender is not recognised as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:36 PM

My father had a tale on this - watching the crews of a troop of Shermans (M4) being machine gunned as they tried to bail out of thier burning tanks in the Reichwald Forrest.

When the advance continued there was a reluctance to take prisoners.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

McGrath, that was an accident, not a strike that ignored the red cross.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 06:52 PM

I wonder if this is moot--will any Afghan ever surrender?

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:15 PM

will any Afghan ever surrender?

Most people in Afghanistan are not soldiers. They are women, children, old men, and so forth. And of course in modern wars, most of the people who get killed are women, children, old men, and so forth.

My point about the Red Cross wasn't that they were aiming for it - but that they didn't see it. (Incidentally, what's a Red Cross doing there in any case? - I'd have thought it would have been a Red Crescent. If so that might explain why it wasn't identified as a non-target.)

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:41 PM

My dad told me a story about WW-II. He flew as a tail gunner on B-17s for the 96th Bomb Group of the 8th Army Air Corps. Apparently another bomb group, the 100th I believe, was being shot up quite badly by German fighters and lowered their wheels to indicate surrender. When the fighters came alongside to escort the surviving bombers to their future internment camp the gunners shot the fighters out of the sky. After that the group didn't get cut a lot of slack by the German fighters.

The 100th took the heaviest casualties of WW-II due to this. I may be wrong on the Bomb Group but I know it happened.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:50 PM

Steve, I don't doubt your Dad recounted this to you in good faith, but is there any corroborative evidence that you are aware of to substantiate this, memoirs, newspaper reports, anything?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:52 PM

Murray - I never did look. His ball turret gunner told me the same story when I met him in 1967. Probably ought to check it out. I'll do that if I get time tomorrow. The 8th Air Force has a pretty good web site I think.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:50 AM

what's a Red Cross doing there in any case? - I'd have thought it would have been a Red Crescent.

The symbol depends upon where the organisation giving the money and help comes from and not which country they work in. So in the (at this moment) unlikely case that the Red Crescent from Egypt would come to help in Great Britain they wouldn't change their symbol from crescent to cross.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:07 AM

The big problem again, is visibility. At a mile out, will tankers or riflemen be able to distinguish between a surrender flag and the Taliban flag? and given their propensities, I believe the Taliban is counting on that even if the flag was in use before September 11. Islamic countries would use the Red Crescent, however, the Red Cross is the sponsor of the relieve effort and I believe the Red Cross of the United States is heavily involved. In spite of their propoganda, this fight is not against Islam, nor is it against the people of Afghanistan. It is against the Taliban, Al Qeada and that toe jam eating bastard Osama Bin Laden. I spent enough time on the soap box, Time for my first cup of coffee. Kindest regards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

<creep alert>

Can anybody shed any light on the origins of the white flag as a sign of truce? ISTR that the Marquess of Newcastle's foot regiment in the ECW had a colonel's colour that was plain white... and (Louis XIV?)'s guard regiments carried colours that were a white cross on a white field...

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM

I got interested and tried a search for Dai's question. No success, but incidentially I found a response to Kevin's original question. In history, several flags have been all white when the white flag of surrender was already known. How do you signal surrender then? The rule is: You either hang the flag upside down and if that is not unambiguous you don't carry/display it upright but with lowered/horizontal flagstick.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Putting up a white flag
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:22 AM

Murray - This is the response from the 100th.

Date = 22 Oct 1 23:29:41 subject = 100thBG Question Submission Steve Neff comments

My Dad was a tail gunner on B-17s. He flew with the 96th Bomb Group and was part of the shuttle mission to North Africa. When the movie "12 O'clock High" came out he told me, I was a kid at the time, that an assignment to the 100th was a "Death warrant." I asked him why and he told me that the 100th had lowered their wheels to indicate surrender to German fighters, I think he told me that the 100th had lost a lot of planes on this particular mission (mission unknown), and when the Germans came close to escort them to Germany the waist gunners shot the germans down. After that the German fighters went after the 100th anytime they could without mercy. Any truth to the story? Thanks -Steve

Hi Steve,
That story is one of the legends of the 100th Bomb Group. On August 17, 1943, the 100th BG was flying Tail End Charlie (Low and Last Group) in the bomber stream. The 96th led the mission that day with Col Curtis LeMay leading. The 100th BG was hit heavy by the Luftwaffe and in the ensuing air battle, lost 9 aircraft. One of these aircraft was piloted by Lt. Robert Knox (a/c Picklepuss) and she was damaged and knocked out of formation. Lt Knox was heading back to England when he was jumped by enemy fighters. Now from this point things get hazy and contridictory. Martin Middlebrook wrote in his book the the wheels down incident was done by a 390th BG aircraft. ALL other books on the subject, accredit this incident to the Lt. Knox Crew (100th BG). The Navigator on this crew was Ernie Warsaw and Ernie says that the plane was shot up, the intercom did not work and when he bailed out, the wheels were indeed down. This could have been caused by damage to the aircraft or the pilot could have put the wheels down to save his crew, no one knows for sure. According to the legend, the ME-109's came up alongside the stricken aircraft to escort her to a German Airfield where the crew was to surrender. Instead, when they pulled up alongside Picklepuss, the gunners (not knowing that the wheels were down since the intercom was shot out) opened fire on the German aircraft and shot them down. The Germans were so incensed by this honor code breach that they mercilessly shot this plane to pieces. From that point on, it was said that the Luftwaffe singled out the 100th BG for annihilation. The group did have many more disastrous missions after August 17, 1943 but the 96th Bomb Group as a whole had more losses than the 100th BG. It was just that when we lost planes on missions, they were BIG numbers. When faced with the truth (which we don't know for sure with regards to this incident) or the legend, I will always pick the legend. I believe there is a certain amount of truth to this story Steve, enough that I believe it. The 100th BG lost a lot of planes on individual missions simply because they just happened to be in the Wrong Place at the Wrong time. It is really as simple as that. The Luftwaffe could not search the entire sky just looking for the 100th BG to attack. They hit the formations that were vulnerable (no fighter cover or loose formations, etc.). Hope this helps.

Regards,
Michael Faley
100th Bomb Group Photo Archives

Steve