I Can Do ¿ but what about other things

Subject: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: GUEST,Typing Gizmo
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:35 AM

Well I can do the ¿ obviously but does anyone know how to get an upside down exclamation point or other things such as a copyright symbol or anything else useless to almost everyone? Help!

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:42 AM

© ¡ (nunbers 169, 161, respectively)

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: GUEST,Typing Gizmo
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:45 AM

I tried that but still have no luck with it.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: masato sakurai
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:50 AM

&+#+169+; (without plus signs, without breaks, don't forget to add semicolon) makes ©

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 07:19 AM

thanks for the reminder. I am going to do a spreadsheet (cos I like the methdodology involved) to generate all characters. I will report the method. Should be simple for others to follow. Lets see.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM

Tilde, and straight line above letter?

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From:
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 07:47 AM

If you are talking about doing them in HTML, there are at least a half dozen pages showing how to do Special Characters in HTML.

© = ©

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From:
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 07:51 AM

Here

http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~jwmitch/iso8859-1.html

This page shows both the HTML code as well as the numerics. It's recommended to use the Special Codes rather than the numerics. The Codes would translate properly, but the numerics might not depending on the browser and the operating system being used.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 08:11 AM

Thanks!!! They work, too.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:13 AM

Alternatively -

Quick way to generate all those obscure characters. In Excel. In the top left cell type.

=&#"&TEXT(ROW(),"0")&";"&" "&ROW()&"<BR>

hit return -

copy cell 1 - highlight cells 2 to 255 - paste (or hit return)

OR "drag/copy"
save as text file (give it an HTM extension or change file name later) and hey presto - e.g.
ã 227
ä 228
å 229
(Word has converted these to text equivalents)

Of course only numbers 34, 38, 60, 62 and 160 to 255 are not available from the keyboard and printing characters.
Now how can I get Word to spell "raison dêtre"?

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: GUEST,WYS (ate my cookie)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:01 AM

I think these will copy-paste as seen onscreen, too-- at least within Mudcat I've copied and pasted the mark in Aine's name (it's in a template somewhere....)

"raison d'être" needs an apostrophe too.... ¿No?

¡Si!

ã

ä

å

© ~S~

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:09 PM

I nearly always compose my messages in Microsoft Word and then copy and paste the whole message to my browser. In Microsoft Word, it's very easy to insert special characters, and you don't have to learn any codes. Click on "Insert" in the main menu, then click on "Symbol," and a symbol window will pop up. Then click on the character you want, click the "Insert" button, and close the window.

♪Jim♫

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:10 PM

쳌ôOh you kid!♫

~S~

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:11 PM

By the way, I'm curious: Can everyone see the little note symbols next to my name in the above message? They look fine in my browser.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From:
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM

Nope

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 04:46 PM

Can't put a macron on top of a letter. ¯A ¯a puts it beside the letter but not above. Needed for Hawaiian and anglicized Japanese words. ??

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:00 PM


Apparently great minds do think alike.

I have been having and observing occasional "bounces" of characters in posts, so I have posted to mudcat ALL characters defined in the HTML 4 Specification.

Most of them work okay for me, but a few don't. There have been a lot of threads discussing the issues, but so far as I know I'm the only one AR enough to have tried it so far.

I'm in the process now of putting the results in to tabular form to re-post the result in a new thread. Hopefully, people can then comment on anything that works differently for different browser.

If you want the "real poop" you can consult the W3C Committee HTML 4.01 Specification . If you go down a couple of pages to the table of contents, you can click into the character definitions there.

If you want to see what a character looks like - especially ones that don't work, you can go to Unicode website, or you can go directly to the Online Unicode Handbook.

Although it's not organized yet, you can see my results from postings at and following TESTS in thread HTML test thread 2 - please ignore

I think that - because of the size of my posts there, that thread has gotten sort of clunky. I've had trouble getting it loaded. I would suggest coming back here, or to one of the other HTML Practice threads if you want to comment, rather than adding to that one.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM

and!!....if you use a PC..(not a Mac)..there is a program which will make ALL the special characters instantly accessable! behold, AllChars!

a truly clever little program...

But if you'd like a program that will display all the characters in any installed font, at various sizes.. try Extended Character Map

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:27 PM

(By the way...them is FREE programs)

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM

Bill D

Those look like pretty nice programs, but they mostly duplicate things that are already in Windows and Word.

There are quite a few composite characters built into Word. You have to learn - and remember - the shortcuts, but the AllChars seems to have the same problem. It might be nice to have a few pre-built macros, but you can make your own.

Extended Character Map looks almost identical to Character Map that's built into Win/Office. You do have a little problem with seeing characters in Win CharMap, but if you click on one it enlarges. Does the one you suggested make them prettier?

For those who might not have found it, usually Start-Programs-Accessories-SystemTools-CharacterMap will get it open. I keep a shortcut on the desktop.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM

Mr Red:

You can add your "pet" word to the autocorrect dictionary in Word - Tools on the bar at the top of the Word window, and then select autocorrect. Put some "shorthand" in, and then the word you want to replace it.

Another option is to add it to your spellcheck dictionary. Spell it wrong once, then spellcheck it. When it asks what to replace it with, type it in and select "add to dictionary."

Of course, if you're going to use it for a post, you have to have it replaced by the "code" ?????. Maybe you need separate autocorrects for plain text and for code, but you should be able to work that out with yourself.

Incidentally though:
I've found that I sometimes get different results from a posted web document than what shows when I read an html saved from Word on my own machine.
I use Word to make the same sort of tabulation you used Excel for, but offline I get slightly different results (as to which characters work and which don't) than when I post them somewhere.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:17 PM

Jim Dixon: I see your notes. (On IE5)

WYSIWYG: I see the notes at the end of the line, but the one at the start of the line is a dud.

Mr Red: The HTML Spec (4.) defines characters with ASCI/ANSI/ISO numbers up to at least 8482, and I think it goes quite a bit further than that. You need to extend your Excel chart.
That will include a lot of garbage, but 160 thru 255, 402, 913 thru 982, 8226, 8230, 8482 are mostly good numbers.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

Jim Dixon, I could see your notes before and after, and copy-pasted them, but I see in my paste job the same thing John in Kansas sees. I'm in IE5.

In Netscape, your notes looked like this:

?Jim?

And my copy-paste looked like: ?ôOh you kid!?

~S~

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM

the Extended Character Map is a 'prettier' program for viewing characters in various fonts, but I got it because the 'regular' character map was NOT automatically installed with WIN98...I am told it is on the disk, but I just never went looking.

The AllChars program is another thing entirely ... here is the intro page that gives an idea of the macros and instant access to é £ ¥ and such

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:33 PM


WYSIWYG:

The single note to the left of Jim's "signature" and the double note on the right both paste into Word with ANSI value 63, if you pick them up and paste them one at a time. That's because Word doesn't recognize "character entity values" outside the normal ASCII - or with later versions, outside the normal ANSI range. (ASCI = 0 thru 127, ANSI = 0 thru 255)

This character value would normally paste back into the post window and paint the &#63; question mark glyph.

Actually, what I see in your post is a blank rectangle, indicating an unidentified/untranslatable character, followed by the lower case o-caron, and then the rest of it.

What I found in your post is (something with char value 129, that on my screen is a dud - an open rectangle) (char value 244, which is a valid o-circumflex)(Oh you kid!&#9835;)

My guess would be that Word recognized the first character's code, but couldn't read it, so it punted. It thought the end of line code was just normal text, so it pasted it. (You evidently copied more than just the end character).

The characters Jim actually posted are &#9834; & &#9835;.

Neither of these characters is included in the HTML 4 Specification as "legal" for use in html, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't work, as can be seen.
The "conscience burn" I get from using the Insert-Special-Characters function in Word is that it does, fairly frequently, use out-of-legal-range characters and often "uncharacters" whose composition is known only to mickeysoft.

I don't know that this causes any humongous problems in html, but it can really screw up a prepress layout.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:03 AM

urg?

~S~

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:25 AM


WYSIWYG

You can put Jim's little notes in using &#9834; for ♪ and &#9835; for ♫.

They work, but as you saw, when you copy them they get mangled. They aren't HTML approved, but mickeysoft doesn't care.


Bill D

Looks like you're happy with what you've got. No argument with that.

I use the CharMap fairly often. If a character is not "typable" it will show you the ANSI/ASCI code for the character when you click it. I don't usually copy and paste from CharMap, since it messes with format (it doesn't pick up the point size of the document when you paste.)

Once I get the number from CharMap, hold down the Alt key while you type the number (with a 0 first) on the numpad, and you can "type" any ANSI character. It won't do more than 4 digits, including the first 0, so you can't use it for those high number ones.


For the benefit of those who have Word, but not Bill D's suggested utility:
Hold down CTL and type an apostrophe (') If the next letter you type is A, E, I, O, U, Y, a, e, i, o, u or y, you will get Á, É, Í, Ó, Ú,Ý, á, é, í, ó, ú or ý.
Hold down CTL and type the "accent grave" (`). If the next letter is A, E, I, O, U, a, e, i, o, or u, you will get À, È, Ì, Ò, Ù, à, è. ì, ò, ù.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT and type a caret (^). If the next letter is A, E, I, O, U, a, e, i, o, or u, you will get
Â, Ê, Î, Ô, Û, â, ê, î, ô, û.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT and type a tilde (~). If the next letter is A, N, O, a, n, or o you will get Ã, Ñ, Õ, ã, ñ, or õ.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT and type a colon (:). If the next letter you type is A, E, I, O, U, U, a, e, i, o, u, or y, you will get Ä, Ë, Ï, Ö, Ü, Ÿ, ä, ë, ï, ö, ü, or ÿ.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT and type an "at" (@). If the next letter you type is A or a, you get Å or å.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT and type an ampersand (&). If the next letter you type an A, O, a, or o, you get Æ, Œ, æ, or œ.
Hold down CTL and type a comma (,). If the next letter you type is c or C, you get ç, or Ç.
Hold down CTL and type an apostrophe ('). If the next letter you type is d or D, you get ð or Ð.
Hold down CTL and type a "slash" (/). If the next letter you type is o or O, you get ø or Ø.
Hold down ALT+CTL+SHIFT while you type a ? and you will get a ¿.
Hold down ALT+CTL+SHIFT while you type an exclamation (!) and you get ¡.
Hold down CTL-SHIFT while you type an ampersand (&). If the next letter is s, you get ß.


If you hold down the ALT key and type 0163 on the NumPad, you get £.
Hold down the ALT and type 0165 on the numpad to get ¥.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:07 AM


T̅

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:57 AM


Dicho:

I've checked the HTML 4 Spec, and the T-overbar is not a defined character for html.

Also checked as much as I could of the Unicode online standards, and it does not appear as a character in any language using Latin style characters, as far as I can tell.

Unicode defines "combining characters" that can be used in a program, to allow you to, essentiall, overtype one character on top of another. As far as I can tell, there is no direct implementation of this in html.

HTML does allow for defining special characters, but it appears that the definition must go in the document header material - or it must at least be enabled there. Someone else may be able to educate us on that.
Since a post to mudcat is an "edit" to a standing document, we don't have access to the header to define "new stuff," and it certainly would involve more than just typing a character code.

Since the character(s) you're asking for don't appear in Unicode, they are not likely to appear in a major language? Perhaps if we knew more about why you need this, someone would be able to offer more help.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 03:09 AM

𝄋

𝄠

𝄵

𝅘𝅥𝅮

𝅘𝅥𝅯

𝅘𝅥𝅰

𝅘𝅥𝅱

𝅘𝅥𝅲

𝄞

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 07:07 AM

Macs have a small application in the Apple menu (in most OS versions up to 9.2.1) called 'Keycaps' which shows you all the characters and how to get 'em.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

I'm still a bit mystified by all this, but it seems that what characters you can see depends on several things: What kind of browser you are using, what the default font for that browser is (or what font you have changed it to), and maybe on whether the font in question has all those characters defined.

Although it may be fun to put lots of special characters in our postings, I suggest we limit ourselves to those characters that practically EVERYONE can see.

For those people who want to post song lyrics in, say, French, Spanish, or Gaelic, it's nice to be able to use all the accent marks and punctuation marks that those languages customarily use. As long as we stick to those, I think we're safe. To keep Mudcat accessible and intelligible to all, I think that's the ONLY time we should use special characters.

The notes that I inserted in my first message above were meant as an experiment. I see no need to use them, and I don't intend to use them again.

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:00 PM


Jim Dixon (& us all'ns)

I'm with you on your above.

A lot of things that people do are fun in the practice threads, but have no real place in the "business" of mudcat. Thankfully, I haven't seen much of the "weird stuff" creeping into normal threads. Hope it stays that way.

I've been limiting myself to the characters defined/named in the html spec. I've found that some of them don't work here, for me at least; and some others may bounce for other people.

The html spec is written in terms of creating an entire, new web page/document. We aren't doing that here. We are merely editing an existing page.

We need to live with the rules that come with the existing document. They're good enough to do what we need to do, but some of them are a little vague (to me at least).

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:19 PM

On Mac, at least in Netscape or in Word,
Option + "g" = ©

Option + "n" and then the letter (e.g., "n") = ñ

Option + "u" and then the letter (e.g., "o") = ö

Option + "e" and then the letter (e.g., "e") = é

Option + "i" and then the letter (e.g., "o") = ô

Option + "a" = å

Option + "o" = ø

Option + "w" = *

Option + "p" = *

Option + "©" and then the letter (e.g., "n") = ñ

Option + "c" = ç

Option + "n" and then the letter (e.g., "n") = ñ

I actually forgot where I found these -- probably in the MS Word manual. But it's pretty easy to discover them by playing aroung with the Option and Command (Apple) keys and various letters (or by using "KEYCAPS" on an older machine). There is also an INSERT SYMBOL option in the INSERT menu.

I have found that these usually show up as entered on the internet and in emails.
(Having said that, I will probably find that it won't work in this post!)
Genie

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Genie
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 01:23 PM

Part of it transmitted OK -- not the two that ended up as asterisks (they were supposed to be the statistical capital Sigma and the greek letter pi).

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM


Format check

THE FOLLOWING LATIN 1 CHARACTERS DISPLAYED CORRECTLY IN A TEST POSTING

GLYPH	NAME	DECIMAL	HEX		GLYPH	NAME	DECIMAL	HEX
Ο	Ο	Ο	Ο		Ο	Ο	Ο	Ο

(1)Note

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM


Format check

THE FOLLOWING LATIN 1 CHARACTERS DISPLAYED CORRECTLY IN A TEST POSTING

GLYPH	NAME	DECIMAL	HEX		GLYPH	NAME	DECIMAL	HEX
Ο	Ο	Ο	Ο		Ο	Ο	Ο	Ο

(1)Note

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM

my BIG complaint is that Macs have the option to use the infinity symbol, and PCs don't....you can say so much with some characters...*sigh*

©¿©¬
~

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 04:35 AM

Bill D:

I'm on a PC, and I can use ∞ pretty good.

In my test posts, the sign is visible in the post. It's one of a few that disappears when I print straight from the web, but if I paste into Word before printing it shows up okay.

It is an HTML 4 Std Character at &infin;, decimal code &#8734;, or HEX &#X221E;

Personally, I'm kinda taken with &#8226;, which you can enter as &bull;. •••

If you want it in a Word doc, it's Alt-(numpad)0165, then Shift left-arrow once to select the character and reformat it to Symbol font.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM

John...I am barely able to comprehend the more arcane aspects of the use of & an # to control some of these things...I 'could' study it, but I seldom use them except on the WWW..

The short question then..is there any way to make an infinity symbol display in places like this, except by specifying "Symbol" font in HTML?, as what I get when I copy FROM Symbol font is ¥¥

now...lets see if I can make it display WITH the use of HTML

¥

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:51 AM

well!...amazing...I guess I learn something everyday..I did not understand exactly what you were saying in your tables and explanations, but I did comprehend the concept that all symbols and characters are available if you ask for them thru certain procedures...and *grin*...true to my leanings, I have a little program that will size, colorize, specify fonts and create the necessary simple HTML to display what I want....and since Symbol is a standard PC font, I can display the ¥ to almost everyone!

here it is for those who don't have it in them to get slick with HTML

Thanks for the efforts, John...even if I did run with the ball in different directions than you were coaching! Font Colorizer

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM

therefore:

¥ ¡ ¢ £ ¤ ¥ ¦ § ¨ © QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNMqwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: open mike
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 06:42 PM

it is also possible to down load different fonts and be able to type in Runes, probably even Martian! Like this-but it is hard to tell what you are spelling……… Asdfghjkl; Futhark.. it does not transfer ifi type it in word and cut and paste. i guess mud cat does not speak viking..runes... elder futhark....

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

EVERYBODY gotta have the right fonts to see what you type in runes...I have 1000s of fonts squirrled away, but it does little good in here *big grin*...I can type in Braille, too...but you have to have VERY sensitive fingertips on these slick screens

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 03:33 AM


Apparently it is possible for an html document to specify a font that your viewer should use. It does not appear, from my limited experience, that this is done too often except by people who want to make flashy (usually annoying) ads.

If you have the font that the "document" asks for, that should be what you see.

Most of what you see - including mudcat - will be displayed in the font that you set, or the default you use that came with your viewer.

In Windows, (I'm looking at Win98 at the moment) using Internet Explorer (IE) you can go to Start - Settings - Control Panel - Internet options, and on the "General" tab there should be a "Fonts" button. You can use it to choose whatever font you want, for a default.

You choose one font to use for proportional (variable width letters). The most common here are Times, Times Roman, Times New Roman, or one of the Arial/Helvetica family, etc. You choose another font for "equispace" - all letters the same width. This one is almost always set to one or the other of the Courier family.

Unless the document you are viewing specifies a font (more properly called a typeface), and you have that font, all your viewer will receive is a number that defines a certain character. An "A" is an "A" whether you view it in Times or Ariel or Zapf Dingbats.

Most common fonts include approximately the same set of characters. If you can see it in Times, you'll see it in Arial, and swapping around won't change things very much.

Changing fonts, among the common ones, won't have much effect on what you see, since most of them just use different glyphs (the on-screen picture) for the same characters.

If the character needed is not associated with a glyph in the font you're using, your viewer should thrash around 'mongst the other fonts available to try to find the character and display it. There are limits to how much it can accomplish here though.

The ∞ is character number 8734 in the Unicode standard book, and if you tack an & (flag to say that what follows is something spiffy) followed by a # (flag that says the spiffy stuff is a number), followed by the number, and then a ; (flag to say that spiffy stuff is done now), the document pastes in that character. (note that "flag" is colloquial for techie stuff)

The HTML 4 Specification defines about 250 characters, and gives them handy names. The ∞ doesn't happen to be one of them.

I've posted the HTML 4 defined characters at HTML CHARACTERS REDACT, along with how they work on my setup.

There are a lot of other characters - not specifically defined in the HTML spec - that work. A run through the first 13,000 possible character numbers on my system show about 950 that display - in my IE5 setup. There are very few of them (∞ excepted, of course) that would be useful for much on mudcat.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 10:34 PM

A checkout on an address:

Oklahoma Hills

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

I have uses 'view source' to look at HTML that specified 3 or 4 fonts, from unusual to common...that way *if* you have the hoped for font, you get the author's first choice..if not, you get something close.

Now, I HAVE read about experiments to create a protocall that would check your system to see if you have the specified font, and if not, go to a big font archive and download it to a 'temp' file and install it for that session only. (This happens with many images when you use a Newsreader...it puts them in a temporary file, and deletes them when you close the application)

If they ever work this out, we will be able to almost any font without having 1000s installed.[there is about a 900 font limit in Windows currently anyway]..(but if they DO, I hope they make it a feature you can turn OFF...*grin*,,,some folks' taste in fonts is debatable)

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

"create a protocall"...LORDY! just hit me..PROTOCOL

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM


Bill D

In Win95, all installed fonts were "loaded" everytime you booted. If you put a lot of fonts on your machine, your memory would be full of fonts and the machine wouldn't run.

I've been told that Win98 loads the first "n" fonts, and then quits, unless you actually use another one, and then it swaps with something else. Since I had already cleaned my font sets out before I went to Win98 I haven't actually tested this theory.

Having thousands of fonts doesn't really do anything for you if - like most normal fonts - they are just variations of the same character set. It is likely that almost all the fonts you have are the Latin-1, or extensions thereto character set(s), with the exception of Symbol and some Dingbats - or maybe something that has some specific special use with something you've hooked up to.

But the standards organization in charge does list about 35 pages of "approved character set names."

The problem with having another character set is - you can write it, but nobody can read it, unless they have the same stuff. Or, you could read it, but nobody ever sends you any.

Are we havin' fun yet?

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:17 PM

The limitation on fonts seems to be a size limitation for the names/paths in Registry. (64k) and some people top out lower than 940, and some others higher. It depends on if you have a lot of fonts with names like T11286.ttf vs. Ihadtoomuchpizzalastnightboldextendedalternates.ttf

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:27 PM

I'll have to look into that when I need some more fonts. Right now, my problem is figuring out which one I used in that old doc I want to do some changes on.

Actually - because of business needs, we still use about as many Adobes as TrueTypes. They seem to handle differently, but maybe that's an illusion too.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM

Adobes are considered to be 'better' usually...cleaner and better kerfed..etc...but TTFs seem to be easier to handle, and for many purposes are hard to tell apart..(Adobe wants THEIR stuff to STAY their stuff, and makes a point of it)...there are periodic (illegal) postings of entire sets of Adobe (Type-1) fonts on alt.binaries.fonts, and mad scrambles to get them before they expire. Tsk!

Fonts seem to be like recepies, there is no end to the ways people try to present the basic ingredients...some are yummy, and some are just plain strange!

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM


Bill D

Fortunately or unfortunately - depending on your view of it, for our business use we have to be able to prove we own the right to use the fonts, so we end up paying for the ones we need. We try to keep them to a minimum.

I'll agree that mickeysoft has done a good job of incorporating TrueTypes into all of their stuff, and they generally work quite well. They've even gone to some lengths to make it hard to use Adobe fonts.

Unless you're sending stuff to a printer, you probably are well enough off without Adobe fonts. And a few printers now are accepting prepress files with TrueType fonts in them - but not MickeySoft Press.

John

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:59 PM

Micro$oft...*grin*...and with AOL totally screwing up Netscape and with Adobe and RealPlayer not wanting anything compatible with them, I am reminded of the old saw:

When elephants battle, ants are trampled

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:11 PM

buggeration
I just noticed that Word - SaveAs HTML - and cut & paste HTML text mangled my formula. Basically (at library & no fancy wp) between equals and hash there should be a quotation mark and at the end of the break there should be another double quote.
too clever? you bet - anyone out there who really understands how Word handles numbering? No? I thought not!

Subject: RE: I Can Do ¿ but what about other things
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:46 PM


Mr. Red

Then your Excel top left cell would have been:

=^quot;&#"&TEXT(ROW(),"0")&";"&""&ROW()&""
?

I haven't figured out what "save as html" is supposed to do in Word. I get a whole lot of garbage that's mostly unneeded.

Try "save as - text only." You can name the "save as" file with the htm extension, or take the .txt default and then change it (rename) in WinExplorer to .htm. Once you have changed the extension to .htm, it should open in IE (or whatever you're using).

The "save as html" may try to code some characters for you, but it does so many other things that I just haven't had the patience to mess with it.

Word includes a "numbered list" or "unnumbered list" format as a clicky on the top tool bar, but I have found these troublesome to use. If this is what you're talking about with "how Word handles numbering," I'd suggest you try something else for most things.

When you "apply" numbered list formatting, Word uses some sort of arcane hypertext device to indent the list, and add a "symbol" for the numbers (or bullets for unnumbered list). You cannot "select" either the numbers or bullets to edit them. (If this is the problem area - suggest you try this in Word to see how it doesn't work). You cannot search and find these numbers or bullets, partly because they are "outside" the text - search can't select them either, - and partly because they are "mapped" to "real sybols" - to use "Wordspeak."

If you want to generate a sequence of numbers in Word in a way that gives you some control, there are a couple of useful "fields" that may be helpful.

If you haven't used fields in Word, I would suggest that first you go to "Tools - Options" and select the "View" tab. In the "show" field, unclick fields, but select "Field shading - when selected."

I generall use a "sequence" field for consecutive numbers.

If you click "Insert - Field" or just type CTRL-F9, you will see a couple of curly braces, with your cursor between them. Type "seq" to start a "sequence" field.

You should have something that looks like { seq| } where | is your cursor.

The sequence must have a "name" - and you can have several working at the same time. Still in the field, type a space followed by some name.

You might have: { seq listnos| }

If you hit F9 now, you should see a "1".

If you copy this, say 5 copies, you will see 5 "1s," but if you highlight them all and hit F9 (field update) you will see 1,2,3,4,5.

If you highlight them all and hit "Shift-F9" (Toggle View Fields) they will open up so that you can see that the code is still there.

If you want to start the series with a number other than 1, you add a "restart" switch \r followed (no space) by the starting number to the first field of the sequence (or to the field where you want to start renumbering).

Put your cursor in the first field (between the braces and add \r125, to get { seq listnos \r125 }
Highlight all of the fields, and hit F9, and you should see 125, 126, 127, 128, 129.

To use the same value twice, you can use the "current" switch \c.
If you change the open second field (Shift F9 to see the code again) to {seq listnos \c }, highlight them all and update (F9) you would see 125, 125, 126, 127, 128.

If you don't take out the final space inside the field, it may print a space, so you should take it out for most uses.
To code to display characters with their character numbers, make one line:

&#{seq listno}; {seq listno \c}<br>

Since html doesn't like tabs, replace the tab with 3 or 4 &nbsp; nonbreaking spaces.

You get:

&#{seq listno}&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;{seq listno \c}

Make a hundred or so copies, highlight the whole mess and update using F9.

Word works fairly reliably up to sequences of 100 or so - maybe quite a bit more with newer versions and a lot of memory, so do a hundred or two, then restart (\r<somenumber>). go to the line above the restart, highlight back to the top and update (F9) and then unlink the ones highlighted by using CTRL-SHIFT-F9. The ones unlinked are no longer part of the series, so you can do the next hundred.

Note that you MUST "unlink" (CTRL-SHIFT-F9) to change everything to clear text before you can post it. And ALWAYS update (F9) before you unlink.

Lots more in word HELP, if you go to "find" and type in "seq." And there are several other "numbering" fields.

Enjoy!

John