Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:13 PM

Verse from "Sweet Betsy from Pike:"

The injuns come down in a wild, yellin' horde
And Betsy got skeered they would scalp her adored,
So behind the front wagonwheel Betsy did crawl,
And there with her musket, she murdered them all!

Annie Oakley, Calamity Jane, all kinds of women right handy with firearns.

=======

I was out with a couple of friends one afternoon in an area close to a steep bluff that would serve as a good backstop so bullets wouldn't go flying off we knew not where. We had a good supply of empty beer and soft drink cans which we filled with water and lined up on a fence. A Coke can full of water makes a very satisfactory geyser when hit square on with a 9 mm. slug.

Marcia, my friend's wife picked up her husband's .45 automatic, loaded the clip with five rounds, and turned toward the fence with a row of water-filled cans line up on it.

A couple of other guys who were there (who didn't know Marcia) commented that, "Man, a woman really can't handle a .45 auto. Too much recoil, and a woman's wrist is just not strong enough to handle it!"

Marcia overheard this. And said nothing. She just smiled sweetly, aimed the .45 cal. brute, and fired five shots as fast as she could pull the trigger. All five cans were in the air and spouting water at the same time.

Again, Marcia smiled sweetly at them, and reloaded to do it again.

The guys got the message and were suitable put in their place. No more macho comments out of them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 12:34 PM

No comment about the knowledge women might have about guns in the place/time of the songs, but "over here" many of the women were quite familiar with them. The women loaded while the men fired when there was lots of shootin' to be done, and most could grab a gun and shoot it if the wolves got after the livestock.

(I might have a different idea than some from tales of my great granny who trapped furs and teamed a mule wagon to make the money to prove out her homestead claim. She was single doin' it all until she proved (fully owned) the claim and the ol' fart next door proposed.)

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Avesso
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:52 AM

I saw the debate about whether and why would jenny put water in the main character's gun. I would like to add that most woman dont know how to handle guns (take off the charges? pff) so probably water was their way to disarm a gun

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 01:56 PM

Some years ago at (I think) Bedford (England) Folk Music Club, the question arose of why Jenny spiked his guns and/or shopped him. I went home and thought about it, and I present the result below.

When I was with that Kevin, the one from Killarney,
He was always showing off, he'd a smashing line in Blarney.
Once he pinched a pair of pistols when he'd had a drop of beer,
Then he said, "Here Jenny, I've just had a great idea!"
        Musha … (etc)

Next morning he rose early, despite a bad hangover
From a record-breaking pub-crawl with this best mate, the Wild Rover,
You'd think this was a hotel – when he felt like it he'd drop in:
And who had to do the washing and the cleaning and the shopping?

When he came home later on, well his dinner was stone-cold,
But he emptied out his pockets and produced a pile of gold.
He said "Who's a clever boy then, me darlin' sportin' Jenny?"
Thinks I, you'll piss it up the wall and I won't see a penny!

That night I took his pistols and I filled them up with water,
'Cos I knew he'd be arrested, and I didn't want no slaughter;
When they picked him up next morning, he was hardly compliment'ry!
But I heard he got away when he knocked down a sentry.

He went and joined his brother, the one that's in the army,
Now they ride the range together – well, the pair of them are barmy!
I suppose I'm well rid – after all, he was a mugger;
But still, I must admit, that I miss the silly bugger.

(C) Steve Parkes

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Ged Fox
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM

I'm surprise that no-one has mentioned the similar dirty trick in the C17th? ballad of the Death of Parcy Reed

         "O some they stole his powder-horn,
         And some put water in his lang gun:
         'O waken, waken, Parcy Reed!
         For we do doubt thou sleeps too sound"

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 08:13 AM

I wonder if Sergeant Pepper had his source in a memory of this song?

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 Feb 13 - 04:08 AM

Jaysus, do you people go around analysing songs in the hope of finding mistakes ?

Just sing it and enjoy.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:17 PM

Although I don't have a lot of historical info to go on, at least later muzzle loaders always used a patch around the "bullet" when it was rammed down onto the powder charge. Where rapid loading might be needed, the fit might not have been particularly tight, but the patch was nearly always greased (or waxed) and would be expected to quite effectively seal the bullet in the barrel so that pouring water down the barrel would be unlikely, at least over a short time, to get sufficient water to the main powder charge to cause much harm to the powder. If left long enough to have a reliable effect moving the gun in almost any way would be likely to reveal the deed by water, not absorbed into the powder, running back out of the barrel.

The primer, or "flash charge" in the pan (often called the "flash pan" in fact) where the flint (or other device) ignited it would be easily rendered inert by even a small amount of water.

The flame produced by the flash charge reached the main powder charge through an open "flash hole" that would possibly admit some water to the main charge if a fairly large amount of water was applied there. The flash hole, however, was generally quite small and it might not have been large enough to avoid a "miniscus" block, making it difficult to destroy the main charge without more than casual pressure or by "squirting" water at the hole with some force/velocity. Getting enough water through the flash hole to completely destroy the main charge would be a bit like trying to put toothpaste back into the tube.

Although a well-knapped flint can produce a significant visible bunch of sparks, the sparks are generally small, and carry little heat. It's a tossup whether it would be necessary to "deactivate" even the entire flash pan charge, or whether a small spit sufficient to quench the sparks on a "dampish" surface of the powder in the pan would suffice to prevent ignition of the charge and would render the gun useless without being obvious except under very close inspection.

In rare but fairly recent usage, I've heard she "spit in his pan" used with the meaning of "she rejected (forcefully) his planned activity," in a group not having a particular knowledge of black power so far as I know - although I'll admit it was a rather strange group. (She, of course, being invariably a spouse?) I suspect this is a surviving form of what was originally intended in the lyric(?) - or maybe not(?).

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Mysha
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 08:12 PM

Hi,

Speed of propagation: Deflagration is subsonic, detonation is supersonic. I can't recall either word in versions of Whiskey in the Jar, though.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 13 - 07:12 PM

The way I learned it in the early 1950s from a fellow who got it off a Frank Warner record:

I went up to me chamber for to take a slumber.
I dreamt of gold and jewels and sure, it is no wonder;
But Molly took my pistols and she filled them full of water
And sent for Colonel Pepper to make ready for the slaughter.
Moosha-ringum-doorum dah, whack fol-the-daddy-o
Whack fol-the-daddy-o, there's whiskey in the jar.

I woke up next mornin', 'twas 'twixt six and seven.
The guards, they stood around me all in numbers odd and even.
I pulled forth my pistols, but, alas, I was mistaken.
I tried to fire them off, but a prisoner I was taken.
(Chorus:   Moosha. . . .)

A single shot muzzle-loader flintlock pistol, loaded with powder and ball, along with wadding and with the aid of a small ramrod stored under the barrel (CLICKY). They often traveled in pairs, along with a powder horn and a bag of shot and wadding. The powder was highly susceptible to losing its potency if wet, so pouring water into the loaded barrel would very effectively sabotage the pistol. Molly wouldn't have had to "pull the charges." Dunking the pistols or pouring water in the pan or barrel would have been a quick and easy way to turn them into paper-weights.

Origin of the admonition, "Keep your powder dry." They weren't talking about face powder and shiny noses here. Any soldier in the field or deer hunter seeking to fill his larder with the aid of his trusty flintlock would be out of commission if his gunpowder got wet.

By the way, if you're ever at a target range and someone comes in with a black powder musket or pistol, try to stand up-wind. Those beasts spew a lot of smoke when they belch forth, and if you're down-wind—

STINK like you wouldn't believe!! PEEYOU!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:19 PM

highlandman -

it gets most important when you deal with something that can go either way, like the ethylene gas used for flame welding.

At low pressures it burns, fairly mildly until you add oxygen.

Compressed to a little over 150 psi IT DETONATES spontaneously (and powerfully).

That's why it has to be "dissolved in acetone" to be stored at common tank pressures of a couple of thousand psi to get a useful amount in the bottle - hence the common name "acetylene" (acetone-ethylene).

Lots of such fascinating, and mostly totally useless, things one picks up along the way.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,highlandman at work
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

John-
10,000 points for knowing the distinction between deflagration and detonation!
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM

In 2001, it was confirmed that there was no manufacturer of black powder in operation in the US. The last US manufacturer (which I believe was DuPont?) lost their factory in an accident and as of 2001 had chosen not to resume production. There was/is some demand for it, so in the decade since a few small suppliers have come into existence, but I don't have information at hand on whether they actually make the powder or just remix and package imported powder under new brand names.

Black powder is simple enough to make that early farmers often made their own for purposes like stump blasting, and commercial black powder was still in use when the railroad blasted its way through to Hutchinson, Kansas in the mid/late 1800s (souvenir pictures at hand), but more modern explosives are much safer and it's seldom used much anymore.

Black powder (original or as Pyrodex) is still used for "blanks" and possibly for the "flash-bang" type of assault/crowd control charges popularized by a couple of TV "spy epics." (I've never seen a documented use of "flash bangs" by police, but ... ) The uses in blank cartridges are due to the pressure regressive burning (a chemical characteristic) that prevents pressure buildup if the gun isn't too clean, impressive smoke, and sometimes for the bright burning powder ejected due to slow/incomplete burning in the gun.

A disadvantage of black powder is that the residues left in the barrel are extremely corrosive, partly because they're mostly hygroscopic and absorb moisture, and "extensive cleaning rituals" are necessary after each use that are generally unneeded with more modern propellants. In fixed cartridges, corrosive primers continued in some use long after smokeless powder went away, but more modern cartridges generally use noncorrosive primers and minimize the need for very frequent cleaning almost entirely, with congealed lubricants being more of a problem than powder/primer residues.

Chemically, most "smokeless" powders are slightly pressure progressive, but this characteristic can be controlled by details, mostly the geometry of the individual "grains" that make the burning "rate regressive" or "rate progressive.

A "disk" shaped grain will burn on the surface so that the burning surface is relatively constant until it's all gone. This powder grain shape is used in many small arms loads.

A solid rod that burns mostly on the cylindrical surface reduces the burning surface as it burns, so the rate at which gas is produced slows down as the grains are consumed. Sometimes used in shotgun sized cartridges to reduce "muzzle report."

A cylindrical tube can be nearly "rate neutral" since the increase in burning area in the hole offsets the decrease in burning area on the outside.

Multiple lengthwise holes in a cylinder can produce much more increase in the holes than the decrease on the outer cyclinder surface, and can make a "rate progressive" grain.

Highly progressive powders are generally used only in very large bore guns, where the bore volume to be filled with gases increases at increasing rate as the projectile accelerates inside the gun, and a lot of gas is needed to maintian the pressure in the expanding tube volume.

So far as is reported, even the largest naval guns have used "smokeless" powder since it's been available, although it remains "separate loaded," with the projectile rammed into the tube followed by separate bags (or cans) of "powder." I don't have documentation on when the transition was made, but it's been quite a while.

Traditional black powder would possibly (likely?) still be used in large guns for ceremonial "salutes" since the extra smoke is impressive.

ALL PROPELLANTS are "deflagrating" compounds when used as intended. That is, they burn and DO NOT EXPLODE.

Explosives, that DETONATE, are an entirely different matter, and for the most part have nothing much to do with guns.

(Or so it was taught to the US Army Ordnance gang half a century ago.)

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 12:54 PM

Hurling is the Irish game closely akin to hockey, but with no restriction on getting the ball in the air.

Tossing the ball in the air and whacking it with a full swing from the Hurley (a wider faced hockey stick) could send the hard ball up field at well over 100mph, where it would be neatly picked out of the air with a stick blade and sent on again to another player.

Some of the harder types would catch it one handed.

It's a fast and furious game in which taking your eye off the ball could be fatal, but injuries (well, serious ones) are surprisingly rare, as the players are uaually highly skilled and accurate.

Hockey for hard men, my Irish father called it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 07:04 AM

Black powder available here.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM

No US manufacturer of real blackpowder in 2001 ?? So who made the gunpowder used in vast quantities in the main armament of the battleships Iowa ,Missouri , et al ? They used gunpowder rather than cordite , didn't they ?

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM

In the incident this is loosely based on, a highwayman named Patrick Fleming was a highwayman so supported and beloved by everyone except the nobility and English landlords, that he couldn't be caught, much like Jesse James. But he let it go to his head, and started robbing and mistreating common folk.

Specifically, he brought his entire gang into taverns, then didn't pay for their lodgings, food, and drink when they left.

On the verse in point, it was actually an innkeeper, not Jenny, who Drew his charges and filled them up with water.

Pub operators commonly kept a supply of opium around, and when a customer got too rowdy and dangerous, he would dose their drink with opium and put them to sleep. Then they could be peacefully removed from the premises.

Having been stiffed numerous times by Fleming he put an end to it by drugging them all, then going to each one of them to pour water into the flash pans of their flintlock pistols.

After he had all of the pan powder wetted, so the guns wouldn't fire, he called the sheriff to come get them.

Fleming and his 14 men were taken to Dublin and hanged on April 24th, 1650.

Fleming had become so hated among the aristocracy that he was hanged... twice.

After hanging him, they took his body down, wrapped it in chains, then hanged him again beside the road, outside of town, leaving the body to rot and be eaten by crows.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 03:49 PM

Musha ringum Turtle dove.
A rapier would most likely have a 30" +/- blade, as it was likely to be needed as a weapon. See the specs for epees and foils in various fencing threads. [Also bear in mind Crocodile Dundee's comment when a thief tells him to give up his cash because he has a knife: "That's no knife, THIS is a knife."] Similarly, a 19" blade would be a laughing stock.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM

"As a point of military history, being caught with an unloaded musket is probably safer than being caught with a loaded one, since you don't have to waste any time firing an unloaded one. They were always (early ones anyway) more effective when used as a good, stout club..."

But that only holds for close quarter fighting. If your opponent with a loaded musket and possibly bayonet are holding you at arm's length, then you are stuck.

"Well Jenny's a trickster, and while she could have just taken the charges and saved some work, she could also have just taken the guns away. Not this Jenny, nope, she had to make her husband look like a fool while the water dripped out of his guns. Definately shows how malicious she was."

Not dripping, just enough to render the powder useless. I don't think they were married either, especially not in the verisons where she is called sportin' Jenny, a term for a prostitue.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:39 AM

I'm familiar with:

Mush a rig um dur um die

Now, as to them badges:

In "Treasure of the Sierra Madre," Bogie and his prospector pals are heading back to civilization with their gold dust. They run across a group of bandits who claim to be sheriffs (& deputies?). One of the prospectors says something like, "If you're sheriffs, let's see your badges." The response is (in essence), "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" at which point the bandits go for their guns. Our heroes, however, outshoot them. I'm not familiar with who has adopted this line and used it elsewhere, but I'm sure this is its origin.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:32 AM

I heard it as WISHA ring dumado dumada.

GREAT parody!

Great info, I'd always wondered about this.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:17 AM

either
musha ring dummer doo dummer da
or
musha ring durrem doo durrem da

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Julie B
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 08:45 AM

Re. the chorus, I know the last three lines are usually something like:

"whack fol the daddy o,

whack fol the daddy o,

There's whiskey in the jar."

...but what version(s) of the first chorus line do people most commonly sing?

Julie B

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 10:27 PM

Pyrodex can be used pretty much interchangeably with black powder. It is apparently a more modern "smokeless?" propellant, mixed with a filler so that a given quantity, by volume - as black powder is usually measured in field use, gives about the same propellant energy as would be obtained with black powder. It can be used in muzzle loaders, flintlocks or cap and ball, or in cartridge loads for guns designed in the black powder era.

It is formulated to be "pressure regressive" like black powder - above a certain pressure the rate of burning of black powder tends to slow down. Most smokeless powders actually increase the rate of burning with increasing pressure, at least up to a point, - and a small error in quantity could easily blow your gun apart. Smokeless powder generally must be accurately weighed - you don't just pour a jigger down the muzzle.

Reenactment people probably prefer to use the "real" black powder, for the sake of authenticity. It does make somewhat more impressive smoke.

Both are used in "blackpowder" or "muzzleloading" hunting seasons, where states designate them. Both are also used in "blackpowder" target shooting.

Unless the situation has changed recently, there is no US manufacturer of "real" black powder now, and Pyrodex is safer and easier to ship and store.

Re: "steenkin bodges" - its from Treasure of the Sierra Madres" - Bogart; stolen, mangled, and used in Blazing Saddles and elsewhere. See Cowboy Lines for a recent debate.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:53 AM

Keith A,
"stinking badges" is, I think, from a Cheech and Chong skit and refers to the sometimes irregular nature of Mexican law enforcement.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The Walrus
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

Gareth,

Indeed the "Twelve Apostles" date from the 17th Century and are possibly (no evidence) the first use of premeasured charges for firearms, but I've always assumed this song to be later {1}. I suspect the term "charges" in the song refer to the loaded round rather than any particular means of loading the weapon, however the powder is carried, the weapon is still "charged".

On the subject of Pyrodex (mentioned in a couple of earlier posts), I understood that it was generally used in ammunition for cartridge weapons which were only "proofed" for black powder (example, the pre-1900 Webley revolvers), but NOT for muzzle loaders.

Walrus

{1} I tend to associate "apostles" with muskets and carbiners rather than pistols

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 01:17 AM

Anyone noticed "There's Whiskey in the Jug", 1858 (with music), on the Levy collection website? It's only slightly later than the earliest (Hodges) issue of "Whiskey in the Jar" on the Bodleian Ballads website, and earlier than the other 3 issues there. The girl is Molly in these. Is Jenny found before the 20th century?

When was "Patrick Flemming" reworked into "Whiskey in the Jar"? c 1850?

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

No comment on "Ivor Emanuel" in ZuLu - sorry South Wales cultral joke.

Walrus - yet again you fill in the points I missed, but the Apostles dates back to the matchlock !!! Though again the question of greased caetrides fits to the Indian mutiny.

I fired a replica tower musket once - oooh it hurt my shoulder.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:52 PM

Keith, it's from "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre," starring Humphrey Bogart.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:07 PM

John P, excellent! Is "stinking badges" from Blazin Saddles?
Keith.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:55 PM

Hurling - the most exciting field sport there is. Here is a link to the Gaelic Athletic Association website - and here is a website with lots of picture and stuff.

As for road bowling with cannonballs - it's spread a bit further than Cork and Armagh - here is a site from New Zealand where it seems to be going strong.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 01:39 PM

Gareth,

Sorry to be pedantic, but the "greased" cartiridges didn't come in until the 1850s (in the British Army, not until the introduction of the 1853 Enfield rifled musket) - on the subject of the "grease", the only examples I have seen have been waxed, not greased.

The large calibe was more to do with black powder as a propellant than any hitting power and only became an issue after the introduction of rifling and breech loading for the majority of the Army (remember, on the general introduction of rifles, the calibre dropped from .75" to .577") (British military handguns, however, remained large calibre for just that reason).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 09:27 PM

John P....thanks for the great parody...I've never seen it before. These threads turn up the most intereting stuff...

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 10:56 PM


And see ZULU just for the music!

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:02 PM

Which comes back to the old arguments on cartridges. The redcoats using Tower Pattern Muskets, ( or indeed the Green Jackets using rifles) were issued with premeasured ball and black powder made up in Cartidge Paper. The bandolieers with the 12 Apostols were from an earlier era, (inc UK civil war).

The cartridges were greased in animal fat (See the Indian Mutiny)

Diferent ages, different loading techniques.

But I'll go along with Dai - when your musket/pistols were fired the most effective use was as a club !! - hence the issue of very long bayonets to the rifles and known as swords.

You don't have that problem with the long bow but then drill could teach a farmhand how to load and fire a musket by wrote. The bow required years of practice.

BTW the large calibre fire arms used by the British Army were more to do with physically stopping an oncharging Zulu or Pathan (Pushtu) than accuracy - If you want an excellent example of old fashioned infantry drill with the 0.44 single shot Martini Rifle see the film ZULU

Gareth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Daystar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:52 PM

The song is one we get asked for at renactment does Roy harris did a version on Champions of Folly as to black powder some time charges are made up in readyness if you dont have a powder flask so Jenny could have stolen them and put water in the pan to make extra sure he could not fire the pistol

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:17 PM


This is obviously a song which has been influenced by the folk process during its long life.

An uninformed observation would be that "fishing and fowling" would probably have gone together in an early version, in an era when many people might have supplemented their rations with 'the bounty of the land.' Most people who did one of these would likely also do the other.

"Hurling and bowlng" would seem to go together, and would be the appropriate 'set' for a society in which recreational(?) activities were common. Perhaps implying a more "urban" populace.

Other "pairs" that have been mentioned seem somewhat a mixed bag. Perhaps this particular phrase is a clue to the time and locale in which a version originates.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Swan
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

I would have thought Jenny clearly filled whatever it was up with water so that the songmaker could rhyme it with the more dramatic 'slaughter' rather than the more mundane 'taken'.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:08 AM

When I read the description of road-bowling I realised it is virtually identical to 'Boßeln' played traditionally in a tiny part of the very North-West of Germany and the very North-East of the Netherlands (neighbouring regions). I went to their homepage and found out that they have European championships every four years in the three disciplines:
Irish iron bowl
Frisian wood bowl and
Dutch bowl
The championships are exclusively in Germany or Holland or Ireland. I guess it would be formally correct to call the three countries event (with a rare Italian team) a world championship.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:44 AM

Forgot to mention that hundreds of pounds often were lost and won on the results of a bowling match.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:32 AM

Bowling as mentioned earlier in the thread has very little to do with marbles. The sport consists of throwing a 28 ounce iron ball over a measured course always played on the roads around County Cork and in Armagh. The winner was the person who completed the distance in the least number of throws. It was always to the best of my rememberance played on Sunday afternoons when traffic was at a minumum. It required quite a degree of skill to keep the missile on the road and prevent it going into a dike or ditch. Also a highly experienced individual could cut down the number of throws by lofting the bowl across bends in the road. Cork mudcatters will recall the famous bowler "Flor Lar" who was able to clear the viaduct on the main Cork to Bandon road which was some 150 to 200 feet high. Young bowlers used to start out with a 14 ounce bowl. Happy days.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:11 AM

Tequila in the Jar
by Bob Kotta

As I was goin' through the mountains of Morelos
I spied Captain Sanchez, he was countin' his dineros
I pulled out my pistola and stuck it in his middle
Saying, "Give me all your money 'cause I am a bad bandido!"
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I took all that money and went home to my Maria
She say them shining pesos and said, "It's good to see ya!"
She vowed and she swore that she'd never blow my cover
But never trust a woman if she's got another lover!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I woke up the next morning, had a breakfast of tamales
When the casa was surrounded by a bunch of Federales
They kicked in the door and they broke the window latches
And took me off to prison, but they had no stinkin' badges!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

In the calaboose they put me with all the other fellows
For robbin' Captain Sanchez in the mountains of Morelos
But they didn't take my reefers so I got the jailer loaded
And then I ran away while his mind it was eroded
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I think I'll find me brother, the one who's in Ayisto
We'll get ourselves a Chevy and go up to San Fransico
Together we'll go crusin' and pretend like we are machos
Pick up pretty women, get 'em drunk and feed 'em nachos!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:36 AM

As a point of military history, being caught with an unloaded musket is probably safer than being caught with a loaded one, since you don't have to waste any time firing an unloaded one. They were always (early ones anyway) more effective when used as a good, stout club...

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Whitewater
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:22 AM

More information about what were termed 'nonsense words' by Kaleea, unless she was referring to the chorus, which of course ARE nonsense but a very important part of Irish folk life :>

'Stand and deliver!" was the phrase commonly used by highwaymen (and women) to announce their presence to their victim/quarry along whichever road they were working just before they demanded the money and valuables. Highwaymen were apparent in every era and century but were most prevalent, apparently, in the late 1600's to the early 1800's.

Charges were generally hung around the upper body on what we now call a bandolier and were nicknamed The Twelve Apostles. They are about, oh, the length of between your fully extended thumb and forefinger and carry maybe about 100 grams of powder, generally enough for two-four shots depending, with a cork or some other contraption that fits firmly in the top. Dunno how much they can carry if packed really full, as we in our living history group only carry enough to fire a total of about six times per weapon, also to prevent spillage because besides being expensive, it's also dangerous around open fire, flint/tinder etc. What surprises me about the songs ref. is not that she filled the charges up with water (trying to pour water into your pan or down the barrell would NOT be good!) but that there are/were charges available for pistols. Were they smaller sized or what? I've only seen them (in paintings and other primary sources) full-size.

HTH,

Whitewater

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:39 AM

Speaking from a Rennie perspective...

The friends I have who use black powder weapons back up the 'watered powder' idea. It renders the powder more or less inert, and (as noted above) is a BITCH to clean out. Discovering this in the midst of a fight where said weapons were your only defense would be VERY nasty.

All things considered, it's a class of song that I'd sum up nicely in "Gee, wish I spent my time in better company"...

M

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:10 AM

"The only one can aid me is me brother in the Army;
But i don't know where he's posted, up in Cork or in Killarney..."

That's the Auld Country version -- for obvious reasons by the time Warner collected it in the uplands of New York state, or wherever he found it, the reference to Irish counties had fallen away.

A

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:05 AM

---"For Molly hid me pistols and a prisoner I was taken" ----"Some take delight in the fishin' and the bowlin'" These are the words I have used for donkey's years; not that it matters, the song holds up well with a variety of lyrics--"Molly", "Jenny", etc.. Boab

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:56 PM

Kaleea, you jogged my memory. When I posted this above--In another version I've heard, she takes his pistol(s) away, leaving only his rapier available.--I was mixed up--it was his rapier she took, not his pistol. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:34 PM

In the 1960's Peter, Paul & Mary sneaked "Whiskey in the Jar" past the censors by calling it "Kilgerry Mountain." Growing up in the Irish music scene, I heard the words sung as: 1. As I was goin over the far famed Kerry Mountains I met with Captain Farrell & his money he was countin I first produced me pistol and then produced me rapier saying stand & deliver for for you are the bold deceiver (nonsense words which vary from singer to singer) cho: with your dum diddle diddy fi o whack fol a diddle o whack fol a diddle o there's whiskey in the jar. 2.I counted out me money & it made a pretty penny I put it in me pocket & I took it home to Jenny. She sighed & she swore that she never would deceive me but the divil take the women for they never can be easy. cho 3. I went into me chamber for to take me a slumber I dreamt of gold & jewels & sure twas no wonder For Jenny took me charges (as in bullets) and filled them up with water and sent for Captain Farrell to be ready for the saughter cho 4. Twas early in the mornin, before I rose to travel the guards were all around me & likewise Captain Farrell I then produced me pistol for she stole away me rapier (an 18 inch long sword) But I couldn't shoot the water so a prisoner I was taken. cho When I've been in Ireland, I sometimes have heard this sung, and it is pretty much the same as I heard growing up. There is usually a 5th verse about the brother in the army & they go "a rovin'" I never heard anyone sing the phrases mentioned above, and have never heard the rock groups do it, only traditional Irish musicians.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Lil VanBone
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:43 PM

Well Jenny's a trickster, and while she could have just taken the charges and saved some work, she could also have just taken the guns away. Not this Jenny, nope, she had to make her husband look like a fool while the water dripped out of his guns. Definately shows how malicious she was.