BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?

Subject: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 04:55 AM

It makes me mad!!! Not the road rage mad I hasten to add but just when I think about it later. For the umpteenth time Peter Street in Manchester was half blocked by a John Smiths Wagon delivering beer to Bar38 - At 8:30 in the morning. Deansgate was brought to a standstill for 5 minutes while an articulated lorry backed into Marks and Spencers delivery bay. The journey to Monsall and back took twice as long as usual - not because of pure volume of traffic but because large vehicles could not negotiate the small roads safely!

Why don't councils ban city centre deliveries in rush hour? Why are trucks and lorries allowed to get away with performing illegal moves and block the flow of traffic? As far as I am concerned the traffic laws are made to make the roads safer and to keep the traffic moving. If these vehicles (or possibly the drivers?) cannot perform within the law surely they should be banned. Shouldn't they?

I do drive quite a lot (30k a year or thereabouts) in all sorts of conditions and on all sorts of roads and the number of times I have thought that if wagons and cars were seperated it would make life a whole lot easier! I am not saying that either the lorry or car drivers are at fault - just that they can no longer be on the same roads at the same time.

Public transport is a joke around here. It takes my wife up to 90 minutes to get to work 5 miles away by this means - 30 minutes, in bad traffic, at the most if I drop her off. Usualy 15 minutes. Does anyone have any sensible ides?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: 53
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:03 AM

you could always move to the states and experience rush hour over here. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Pat
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:04 AM

Hi Dave,

I have the same problem, large vehicles delivering or picking up from the many mills I pass each morning. It takes me an hour to travel 4 miles. I have tried other routes, but they are as congested. I don't think there are any sensible answers. So, sorry I only have daft ones. You could have high wheel base lorries and drive underneath them. Or you could have a let down ramp to let you drive over the top. Or you could set up deliveries/pick ups only to take place at nights. Or you could have designated large vehicle routes, leaving other roads for the rest of us. But large lorries no matter what they do are hard to argue with - they are much bigger than we are!
Pat

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:07 AM

I didn't find it too bad getting out of St Louis at about 6pm Bob and found generally that the roads were much quieter than here. I don't think I would like to try New York, San Francisco or some such though!

Mind you - at least your roads seem to be big enough to take large trucks - ours seem to have been built for horses in the main!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: 53
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:14 AM

i think detroit has the best road system in the USA and its all because thy planned ahead for the future, in SC where i live now its just like you bottlenecked to the hilt, the dot JUST DON'T GET IT . bob

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: nutty
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 05:48 AM

Bankok is the place to be in the rush hour .... in fact it is normally like a rush hour but the times between 8&9am and 4&5pm approx it goes into overdrive and produces a super-rushhour.

Lorries can only enter the city between 10am & 4pm or face a large fine as the whole operation is police controlled but the outcome is still one of total chaos.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM

Wow, and I thought I66 here in NOVA was bad. I'll stop my whining now.

The only solutions I can manage to come up with are; A.) Yeah, restrict large delivery trucks to evenings.

B.) Go back to horses and carriages...that's what those streets were built for.

This is why I am not a politician or a road engineer. ;D

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Grab
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:04 AM

Proper public transport - the only way forward. Trucks damage the road, so use the money that would normally be spent on road repair to subsidise rail transport. At least on the motorways, that's job done.

And add in proper bus services around town, so you don't need to drive in. Park-and-ride services are a great idea, even if they're a bit expensive (£1.20 per trip here in Cambridge). Subsidise this to halve that price, and everyone will use it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 09:34 AM

Dave, I feel your pain. My daily commute is currently from 30 to 45 minutes depending on traffic conditions.

Long Term (pardon the preaching) It seems like I have been driving forever. I have watched the creation of the interstate system in the U.S. I have seen communities try all sorts of things to deal with traffic. I have seen neighborhoods paved, malled, and parking-garaged. I've seen bypasses and overpasses and underpasses. I have gradually come to realize one thing. No matter what is done to ACCOMODATE private transportation, things will get worse. If you build it (or widen it, or restrict it) they will come. Every attempt I have seen to accommodate more traffic simply creates more traffic. The only real result is to move the bottlenecks. The focus of the people who make the decisions should not be on making your driving easier, but on giving you real, viable, reasonably attractive alternatives.

Short term (more preaching) If truck drivers are getting preferential treatment, I would take that to mean that they have more "clout" than auto commuters. Figure out what kind of clout they have and with whom. There might be a way for you commuters to wield your own clout. Community activism, wisely and judiciously applied, works. I've seen it.

Short term (weird suggestion) My own daily commute improved significantly when I stopped listening to the radio and started listening exclusively to my own tapes, CDs, and mini discs, both commercial and homemade. I realized that the radio actually agitates me. Makes a bad situation worse. I find that listening to music that I truly enjoy really relaxes me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:09 AM

Dave, come on down to Nashville. I guarantee you'll count your blessings after that. :-) Every major thoroughfare is under construction, even as the governor tells us we are in a budget crisis, and heavily travelled roads are blocked or merged into one lane during weekday rush hour.

Sigh. If only Scotty could just beam us up.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Lyndi-Loo (who's going to reset her cookie s
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:17 AM

Traffic not too bad here in Ayrshire although Edinburgh is a nightmare. We try to do our bit by car-sharing (five of us in one car) the 14 miles or so each way we travel. Saves a whole load of cash too! There always seem to be thousands of cars with only one occupant. I'm sure that with a little bit of give and take people who work together could travel together more

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:30 AM

4 miles in one hour? I do my four miles in twenty minutes, on my bicycle.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:36 AM

Up to now horse and cart is winning hands down.

I like the idea of bringing the canals and railways into play again as well. Sound very folky;-)

and the drover is on the road again...

Thanks for all the input up to now. Keep it up - lets see if the Mudcat can put the world to right once more!!!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Leonard
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 10:49 AM

Well Dave I think it makes everyone hopping mad. Unhappily the situation is such in city centres and towns that if vehicles did not park illegally then business would be untenable. With Christmas coming up there is a large increase in the volume of deliveries to city centre locations and places like London and Manchester suffer the worst because they have the most pubs, restaurants and shops in constricted areas all of which require constant topping up of supplies to keep all the greedy consumers (ie, us,)happy. One thing that bugs me is that, for example, we get to eat Mr Kipling cakes nationwide because road transport makes it possible, but why the hell is it necessary for them to be delivered to every corner shop in a 10-wheeler articulated instead of a small van? This goes for a load of other products and I frequently see some Effing huge vehicle parked half up on the kerb on a double yellow line to drop off, say, a dozen loaves and a tray of pies. All traffic problems seem to be solved on an ad-hoc basis -someone gets knocked down so they bulid a padestrian crossing, that sort of thing. No one person or group can or will take a global view of transport problems. In London for example you have Commuter railway (Railtrack or whatever it's called this week.)London Underground, Buses, Taxis, prvate and commercial road users and I don't believe that they can be viewed in isolation from each other but form one vast living inter-related problem. There are so many groups that make decisions, the companies themselves, Local Councils, Health & Safety, Ministry of transport and all have their own vested interests,axes to grind and power bases to defend & extend it's no wonder its a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Julie B
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:13 AM

The only way to turn things around now would be re-nationalisation of transport and a diversion of money used for road building to kick start a subsidised reliable, safe, integrated public transport system. But as politicians now deal only in 'short-termism', it's unlikely to happen.

As far as I can see, the road hell will simply continue to get worse. Eventually, journeys to work will take so long that those of us who can't afford to live close to our workplace will have no choice but to to sleep in our offices Monday-Friday in order to keep our jobs!

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:24 AM

There is to many cars on the road, I have a good idea for the roads, they should only let people with white cars drive during the week.john

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,Leonard
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 11:29 AM

I forgot in my rant above to say that there is never enough money to deal with or solve problems. Ever since I was old enough to become aware of these things (1950's)this excuse has been dragged out. I cannot remember a time during my life where Govt. and Local Authorities did'nt complain of not having enough finance. The fact is this country has never had so much ****ing money. Also, I've never lived through a time when there were enough police, nurses, doctors, fire crew, hospitals, schools, teachers. I look forward to the day when there are a surplus of these things, that would be real wealth. Can you imagine a world with too many hospitals?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 12:35 PM

I've driven in St. John's, Ottawa, Toronto, Atlanta, Kansas A couple of weeks ago. I got back from 6 days driving around England. I don't know that I'll ever complaing about the roads over here again.

The side mirrors on the cars are made to fold in when you clip another car. I can't count the number of times i had to stop because the road wasn't wide enough for two small cars. An the trucks (lorries)are allowed to block the streets to unload. ... Wow!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: GUEST,harvey andrews
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM

It's getting a serious problem, particularly Fridays and Sundays. I think a lot of it is contract workers driving home for the weekend and then back to wherever they work on the Sunday. Recently I took four hours to drive 115 miles from Stafford to Leeds. An accident ON THE OTHER CARRIAGEWAY caused a 15 mile tailback on the M6 and took one hour to clear..rubbernecks! Then a breakdown in the outside lane on the M56 caused another hours delay.I love my work, but I can see the day coming when I'm going to say I can't do this anymore..purely because of traffic stress. When I started there was one motorway in Britain and it's only the opening up of the motorway network that allowed the one night stand life of the troubadour to flourish, now the traffic is seriously threatening it's viability as a lifestyle. My answer...well. it has to be draconian..a permit for one car per household. It will cause chaos as people re-sort their lives but the benefits will eventually outweigh the disadvantages. Neighbours who just a few years ago had one car now have four, one for the husband, one for the wife, and one each for the kids. To make it work will require top class public transport, but as I remember when I was a boy no one had a car and we all got around perfectly well. Homeworking should also be encouraged. If nothing is done but short term measures the country will grind to a halt in just a few years time. We have to find an alternative..there is no choice!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: English Jon
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 12:54 PM

Force everyone to buy a british car.

That'll clear the roads for a month or two...

EJ

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Gareth
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:12 PM

E J wont they be blocked with the breakdowns ??

Gareth (A Ford Fiesta owner)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: John J
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:12 PM

You obviously haven't experienced the latest Rovers. They're a bit nice, and the standard of engineering looks like they'll hold together reliably for a good few years.

Me, I ride my bike to as many places as possible. I run an electronic components sales / distribution company, and when customers need a visit I use the car. The rest of the time I try to use a decent, comfortable road bike as much as possible. Sure it's not too comfortable in really bad weather, but so what? Skin's waterproof, and I've got warm, light clothing.

I probably cycle between 50 and 80 miles a week, sometimes much more. I save a fortune in fuel and get a bit of exercise too. The bad news is breathing the pollution, trying to avoid being knocked off my bike by those who don't see me or perhaps prefer to drive motor vehicles on cycle lanes, and generally trying to stay upright.

It's a lot of fun, and although it's not for everyone, I really enjoy cycling and being able to avoid much of the traffic congestion. If like DtG you need to do loads of business miles perhaps carrying loads of luggage, I just think you're stuffed.

In Manchester we have a tram system (Metrolink). It's a really good way of getting around, BUT whatever the powers that be say, it's expensive. I recently priced a family trip to Manchester to go to the theatre (I nearly had to get a mortgage just for the tickets). The Metrolink was just plain stupidly expensive. I'm afraid we used the car.

The bus system in South Manchester is a rather bad joke, it so unreliable that it simply is not a credible alternative to getting around. Since that 'Bloody Woman' deregulated the bus transport system in the 1980s, the road traffic situation has deteriorated to an unbelievable state. There was a time (when I was young...!) that you would see loads of buses carrying people to work and back. Because the buses don't provide a sensible, reliable and affordable service any more, the commuter ends up using his car, hence the severe and deteriorating traffic congestion we now experience.

Anyway it's nearly 7.15pm and I've missed the Archers. I'll get off my high horse and onto my bicycle for the trip home via the local Indian takeaway. I'm starving.

Drive safe.

John

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:26 PM

It's the parents who get out huge estate wagons or off roaders to drive their little *@!#s 200 yards to school and then park all over the road that get me annoyed. And the language you get back if you ask them not to park in your driveway, so that you can get your own car out!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:35 PM

Journeys since time began have been the same - those you can make between meals and do something else, those you have to provide or find food for, there-and-back in a day journeys and those requiring an overnight stay. With faster transport and a greater road network, more places come within range of each category, and more people make that journey.

Deregulation of the buses was a bad move. Good networks were replaced by too many companies bringing in old vehicles and causing congestion by competing on popular routes, leading to decreasing returns, increasing fares, more old vehicles, fewer passengers etc etc.

Bring back goods trains and freight yards, backed up by local van deliveries/wagons on short haul. And stop salesmen chasing up and down the motorways just to talk to other salesmen!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 07:01 PM

Proper segregated cycle lanes-like holland. massive capital invstment in cheap reliable public transport systems and then subsidies. Frieght to be moved by rail to local terminals. Lorries limited in their weight and capacity and number of axles.Motorcycles( up to 750 cc) to pay no road tax or parking fees (including combinations) Cars over 1500 cc's(petrol) banned from the roads. Diesels to have pm10 filters fitted.Petrol to remain at it's present level of taxation, since putting the price up only hits the poorest.

How's that for starters?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 07:33 PM

Let me guess, John from Hull...you have a white car? ;D

So do I...I like the idea! :D

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 07:36 PM

Sounds good to me, not keen on big cars been banned though, my current car is 1.6 litre and my Jag was 4.2. I reckon they should scrap road tax and stick a penny on petrol.I also reckon the MOT test should be needed every 12,ooo miles not every 12 months, at present you could have say an OAP doing a few hundred miles a year and a young kid doing a thousand miles a week, they both need an MOT at the same time!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:00 AM

So... why do they call it the rush hour when nobody can?!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Gareth
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:07 AM

joh from Hull

Insurance statistics say "Young Kid doing a thousand miles a week on the road very likely to be dead in 9 months" - look at it as evolution in action.

Though to be truthfull it was a a little white haired old granny who came nearest to killing me on the Motorway.

Twas the M20/M26 junction in Kent. A Morris Traveller stops dead in the slow lane - presumably to read the Road Sign. Then starts, no indicators, pulls into Fast lane, and stops again. Presmably to look for traffic on the M20 (London to Folkstone Motorway). How I missed the *"£%^£ I will never understand.

Gareth (Still shuddering at the memory 7 years later)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: wildlone
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 03:33 PM

I like the idea of not paying road tax on -750cc bikes
I was traveling up the M5 and just east of Bridgwater a caravan had overturned blocking all 3 lanes so I took to the grass strip by the central barrier and SLOWLY made my way to the front of the holdup and then went on my way knowing that all the motoreway police in the area were sorting out the chaos.
Bikes are a quick way to get from A to B but I have been known to go 70 miles to get to the next town.
ride safe, dave

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: 8_Pints
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM

Dave,

My office is 400 yards away from my house: I still experience a small queue of traffic trying to turn right at the end of the road, but 4 minutes travel time (walking) is still reasonable! *BG*

Bob vG

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:44 PM

Celtic Soul-Yes my car is white, how did you guess?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 08:55 PM

Oh bugger! There really is no escape..... sorting out traffic management problems is what I do for work, and folk music and Mudcat used to be the path to switching off.... sob, sigh. Trouble is, most of the towns in the UK pre-date the development of the internal combustion engine, and there isn't enough road space for all the people who want to drive and park on it. There are conflicts and trade-offs all the time and the bottom line is whether the taxpayer will buy the arguments for paying more or not.

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 04:14 AM

I like my bike - it gets me to work in the same amount or less time as the tube, half the time of the bus and I've already saved over £120 on the road tax!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: lady penelope
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 08:01 AM

Living in London you get to see everyone's point of view. Most people who live or work in London don't live near where they work. I live at least 9 miles from where I work and that's not considered far.

A bus journey to work takes at least an hour and a half on a good day, so to make sure I got to work on time I'd have to leave at least two hours before I 'd have to be at work. It couldn't possibly be much quicker if I went by car and then I couldn't afford the parking costs ( and that would be in a subsidised car park! )

Tube journey takes 40 minutes when all is in order, but usually more like an hour and I'll leave another 15 - 20 minutes earlier just to make sure.

The fastest and most reliable way I have of getting around is a combination of folding bike ( 'cos I'm not that fit and I've had flat or two in my time ) and , shock horror, British rail! On a bad day it takes me an hour, if the trains are really up the creek in the evening I just cycle (slowly) all the way home. If I get a flat or I'm just too knackered, I fold up and jump on the nearest bus/train/tube.

The lack of a reliable public transport system does leave people with few choices, but that choice doesn't have to be a car.

It does make a huge difference in the school holidays when people aren't dropping off their little darlings. Yes, there is a certain amount of difficulty when you can't get your child into the nearest school ( that's whole other argument ) but I've noticed that a lot of the parents near us use their cars but live not that far ( less than half a mile ) from the schools their children attend. The arguments I've heard for their children not to walk to school can be laughably worrying. "They have to cross a busy road" So did I when I was child, so what? " You don't know how dangerous it is out there nowadays " I do, it's no more dangerous than it was thirty years ago. And one of my work mates ( who is persistantly late because of this ) "I can't trust him to go by himself" Her son is fourteen and we've been hearing this since he was nine!

Enough of the rant.

I cannot comment on more rural areas, but I have lived in London all my life. I cannot drive and even if I could I wouldn't buy a car. I simply wouldn't use it enought to justify having it. I take a rucksack (small) when I go shopping or my trolley, or leave the item till my monthly shop when I get a cab home. I use London transport or my bike or my feet or a cab depending on what's necessary or desirable.

I have great sympathy for those who have to travel long distances each day to get to work especially on public transport, but in London most of the cars on the road are from London. Not outside.

I think people have to decide what their priorities are.

TTFN M'Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 08:17 AM

At moment Im involved in the decision to build a guided bus link between Luton and Dunstable. Nightmare! I hope we can persuade TPTB (The Powers That Be) that we can spend the seventy odd million it will cost on the canal infrastructure instead and push the commercial traffic on to that. *-)Cllr

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: CraigS
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM

No answers - just a munge. We've got a Fiat Punto. A Fiat Punto generally gives 47 miles per gallon. A Ford Fiesta 1100 generally gives 36 mpg. The Prescott gave cheaper road tax to cars below 1100cc, eg. the Fiesta . The Punto we had was 1108cc. We bought a new Punto just as the engine size limit for cheaper road tax was increased - and found that the new car was 8cc over the new limit, but lots more Fiestas were included! Is Mr Prescott trying to compensate people with greedy little cars? I'm not just picking on Ford, but the engine size limits have certainly benefitted many owners of small Fords - and the Escorts,etc eat more than the Fiestas. The real measure would be the fuel consumption, not the engine size - and it's the DOT that makes the manufacturers publish fuel figures!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: weepiper
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 06:25 PM

CraigS: I guess they have to have an arbritary (is that spelt right?) cut-off point somewhere...
I used to have a six-mile commute across Edinburgh which I did in 40 minutes by bike. And for all you car lovers who think 'I could never do that, I'm too old/fat/wheezy/lazy etc', my dad (a lifelong car addict and smoker who so far as I know hasn't done any excercise apart from walking between the car and work for decades) has recently retired and bought a bike, and is hardly in the house during the day anymore - he's addicted!
It's never too late. And if everybody who uses a car for journeys under four miles went by bus or bike or walked instead traffic congestion would be considerably reduced. People are just too used to central heating and protection from the elements I think. Getting wet and cold is really not so bad you know. And apparently you suffer worse effects from pollution shut up inside the car than if you're out in the air.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Big Phil
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 06:26 PM

I am an old timer I travel the road I sit in my waggon and lumber my load My hotel is the jungle, a camp my abode and I'm well known to known to Blondie and Mary My liquor is diesel I lace with strong tea The old highway code my first ABC And I've cut my eye teeth on an old AEC YES I am the champion at keeping them rolling Thanks to Mr MacColl for realizing the worth of heavy trucks when he wrote these famous words,to the rest of you truck haters, do'nt forget, if you have got it {any thing} a truck probably brought it to you.... Yes I am a truck driver... Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 06:45 PM

Globing warming should solve it for London. Venice style, with all the streets turned into canals. Much pleasanter.

Driving in a car in London is a mug's game. It just messes it up for everyone else, and doesn't really get you there any quicker. I once had some friends who lived in Ealing and worked in Camden. She used to take the tube, and he'd go by bike. Pushbike. He'd get there quicker than she did, and both of them were faster than anyone going by car.

Cars just don't belong in real cities, any more than horses do. Just a few for old times sake maybe, and to deliver beer (the horses I mean). And the cars for people with disabilities.

And big delivery vehicles don't belong there either, Nothing bigger than a brewers dray. I imagine that should apply to most big cities.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 07:10 PM

Yes, Big Phil, but McColl's old AEC was not a 40-ton monster.

Ken Livingston's GLC kept the biggest trucks out of Central London, but the transport lobby soon did for that idea once Thatcher had done with the GLC.

Anything over 7 tons should be restricted to designated trunk routes. Distribution depots, where goods are transhipped to smaller vehicles for in-town deliveries, should be set up. Why does every delivery have to be made in a company-owned vehicle? Such depots could permit the use of electically powered vans operated by smaller or at least other companies.

Greater use of rail freight would be to everyone's advantage, if only the infrastructure were in place.

Basically, British Government transport policy is an oxymoron, and we all pay the price! Public transport is in a hell of a mess - Railtrack, the Underground, bus privatisation - what a shambles! Bugger the bloody Tories, and bugger bloody New Labour (aka Tory policies with a cheesy grin and a hypocritical veneer) none of them has half a brain on transport matters. Get the politicians out of their limos and ban their free parking concessions and make them suffer with the rest of us.

Congestion charging in London will not help, banning the Tonka toy school run would - my car journey to Central London from Harlow (24 miles) takes 50% longer in term time.

Alternatively, we could all drive Smart cars or motorbikes, since most cars on such journeys as mine only contain one person. Our Civic's only little, but it's bigger than it need be for that job, but Smarts are all still LHD. and comparatively expensive to buy and bikes can be bloody dangerous (to themselves and others) in current traffic.

Perhaps when traffic congestion has reduced the UK to complete gridlock, Mr Fucking "World Leader" Blair, might get his arse in gear and get his minions to do something constructive about the problem. I'm not holding my breath, personally.

Rant over.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 09:15 PM

Harlow to London by car? Masochism! (Sado-masochism actually...)

Mainline train from Harlow Town; Central Line from Epping; Victoria Line from Walthamstow. Any of them would surely be better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 09:55 PM

Jack: "I can't count the number of times i had to stop because the road wasn't wide enough for two small cars". I'm not saying you were one of them but I have lived in rural UK areas for most of my life and it never ceases to amaze me how many car drivers not used to country roads have difficulty judging the width of their own vehicles - some people stop and make a fuss when you leave them more than enough room to drive a bus through!

I don't have the rush hr proplems where I am but if we do go into the centre of Norwich during the day time, we tend to use the park and ride system. All in all, it is a lot less hassle for us and I don't think too expensive - I don't know how other areas work but this one charges per car rather than individual people - even better if my dad who is disabled is with us - we all get the bus ride for free!

The biggest niggle to me is people who insist on driving down good A roads but without many safe overtaking spots at 40mph. They seem to me to cause nothing but long lines of traffic and a lot of frustration - eventually someone ends up taking a risk to get past them.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 01:50 AM

Even if railways took more freight, you would still have to get the freight to the final destination, but certainly all deliveries to town centres should be in the early hours of the morning.

My main problem is with agricultural vehicles, which are getting bigger and faster, and the drivers simply do not obey the law, which requires them to pull over at the earliest opportunity to let traffic pass if there are more than 7 or 8 vehicles behind them.

In my part of the world the we are plagued by sugar beet lorries and other vehicles, not least because of the huge amount of mud they drop on the road.

Why do we grow sugar beet in the UK? And at a subsidy too!!! Better to buy from the Third World surely.

Has anybody noticed that if you are driving at about 6am you are always being followed by some pratt in a white van with a ladder on the roof who overtakes on blind bends?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 02:00 AM

I did a journey straight through the centre of London last night, it usually takes an hour or more, last night it was 45 mins. Why? Because half the roads had been closed all day (a demonstration at Hyde Park down the Embankment) and the other half were being dug up.... And it took longer to do the last mile yesterday afternoon, than it did to do the first 7. I work in the centre of London, it's 8 miles door to door, yet it takes me twice as long to do the first 2 miles than the last 6.... that's the bus system for you. Only in the school holidays does it take less time. I've done it in 40 minutes before now, but it was 6.00am on a school holiday.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: MudGuard
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 02:40 AM

You could, for a start, stop to drive on the wrong side of the road and use the right(hand) side.

MudGuard

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 12:32 PM

Apologies for the intemperate nature of my earlier post, but really!!!!!!!

Sado-masochism or not, Kevin, have you ever tried to transport a couple of PCs, a toolkit and a load of boxed software on the train, bus or tube? On days when I only have a laptop and/or a briefcase I take the train, usually in squalor, overcrowding and discomfort (the bloody seats are designed for deformed midgets) - and they are frequently late.

Mudguard's idea would at least validate the use of LHD Smart cars! Couldn't draw our swords properly, though, and the lances could be a problem. Dammit, we've done away with pounds, shillings and pence, quarters, stones, pounds, ounces in my lifetime, how much more change can a chap take?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:28 PM

I've got this brilliant idea on how to change the side of the Road we Brits Drive on.

One Week end all the Cars (Autos) Bikes and Taxi's change from the Left Hand side to the right hand side - and if that Works, a month later, all the busses and lorries (trucks) change.

Gareth (anticipating unlimited overtime as a result !)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 06:41 PM

If driving on the left is good enough for Ireland, England, Australia, New Zealand and Japan, that's enough to be going on with.

I like seeing signs saying KEEP LEFT anyway. The shame is we don't stick to the principle.

I suppose there are jobs in which it is necessary to carry a couple of PCs and lots of software around, rather than carry a single disc, with a PC at both ends of the journey. Generally speaking I'd sooner be stuck in a held-up train than in a car in a gridlock. Though it was a lot better before they introduced these modern type carriages without compartments and corridors.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: MudGuard
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:45 AM

Btw, there is a nice page about driving right or wrong side of the road right here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: lady penelope
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 06:06 PM

Astonishing page!

The whole idea of getting people who don't need to be in cars out of them is so that people who do ( fitters, plumbers, carpenters, maintainance people of all stripes, delivery crews, glaziers etc.....) can get around. I don't understand charging someone who has to use a vehicle, to provide a service, to make a living is charged the congestion levy. That's way too much stick.

But half a mile is not too much for people to walk ( even if they're only vaguely healthy) and in London particularly, the majority of journies made in a car are under half a mile in private vehicles.

I like the Venice idea, best.

TTFN M'Lady P.

"It's only me - oooooh........" Cornetto in hand, I drift into the sunset........

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: ddw
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM

Getting back to the premise that something needs to be done now to relieve congestion (and assuming it's going to take time to get people to give up their cars), it seems to me the best thing the Brits could do would be to get rid of traffic circles. They take up too much space, slow traffic unnecessarily and annoy the hell out of all and sundry, especially of there is someone like me (at first) who had no idea what you were supposed to do in them.

I asked several people why in the world they would use them and the inevitable reply was "They keep the traffic moving."

To which I usually replied: "Bullshit!"

There was an area near the house where we were staying in which there were seven (literally, seven) of the things in less than a mile. That's slightly less annoying than stop signs ever block, but not much. As for keeping things moving, you still have to stop and wait for any traffic coming from your right to clear, so I don't see how that's any help when traffic is heavy.

If you really want to keep traffic moving and still keep the speed controlled, try what may U.S. and Canadian cities do. Go back to standard intersections and time the lights. In lots of places you may have to stop at one traffic light, but if you then maintain a steady speed close to the posted limit you can drive for miles without having to stop at another. If you speed up you'll be caught by another light.

works for me.....

david

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:57 AM

I like traffic circles (roundabouts).john

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:14 AM

(they keep the traffic moving)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 04:21 AM

I have recently returned from Seattle WA in the States and caught some TV ads for the Mayoral elections. One of the candidates was standing on a commitment to sort out Seattle's traffic problems, which are major.

I doubt that he'll be able to do much but least it gets on the political agenda over there which is more than can be said for the UK

R

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 07:29 AM

"Traffic circles" - no, "Roundabouts" is a much more colourful name, and that's what they are called. Dead easy to negotiate once you'd got the knack.

Harlow probably has the largest concentration in the country. The legend is that when Sir Frederick Gibberd, the Harlow Master Planner had made the Master Plan for the New Town, he had a party, with the big map on the table. Only it was so big it took up all the table, and the guests put their drinks down on it, and left lots of little round marks all over the place. And that is why we have all these roundabouts.

They work pretty well. Originally the idea was there'd be no need for traffic lights, but now we've got a good number of them as well, and some roundabouts have traffic lights incorporated. If it all serves to confuse the tourists from benighted places where they don't have roundabouts, maybe that's a bonus...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Grab
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 08:40 AM

Roundabouts work by kind of giving priority to the road with the busiest traffic. Once someone goes straight across, the person opposite can also go, and so it continues. Until eventually someone turns left or right, and then the other lanes get a chance to go and establish themselves. It does all work out in the end, trust me. :-) And space-wise, they don't have to take up any more room than a typical US/Canadian intersection, plus there's the bonus of having a pretty flowerbed in the middle of the larger ones - what more could you ask for? ;-)

Traffic lights have the disadvantage that even if there's no-one coming from the other direction, the traffic is still stopped. Plus there's a huge bias against turning across the traffic, which can create serious tailbacks - it's just as easy to go in any direction at a roundabout.

Now 4-way stops, that's a lousy idea...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:16 AM

Harlow certainly has the most manic multitoundabout in the country, closely followed by Swindon. Cambridge is the worst town for traffic management.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM

Traffic circles! Harlow's collection, as Kevin has remarked, is legendary.

French "circles de traffique" work similarly, but only seem to allow for one circulating lane of traffique, and insist that "vous n'avez pas le priorite". And they go round widdershins! The rationale for UK driving on the left is obviously so that WE go round clockwise!

There is only one roundabout in the Frankfurt area in Germany, at Rodgau, and it causes untold confusion and numerous accidents among the otherwise orderly Teutons. They even have special coffins for the victims with gold decoration to commemorate the Teuton car man. ;o)

Alternatively, we could do away with roundabouts (I think I actually prefer "traffic circles"!) and adopt the South African convention, whereby the first vehicle arriving at a crossroads has the right of way. This can require a fine judgement and leads to some interesting encounters, but keeps the body shops (of both kinds) in business.

On the subject of dangerous conventions, how about the legal right turn against a red traffic light, as in the US?

No, we're going to have to learn to live with smaller vehicles or no vehicles at all, but this can't be done until public transport and the rest of the infrastructure has been sorted out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Trevor
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:01 AM

AAAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!!!

One hour without moving, between 9 & 8 on the M6 yesterday. 5 hours to get from Shrewsbury to Essex! And the radio in the car had packed up - mind you I've only got another 25 verses to go and I'll have all of Tam Lin.

How many more times are they going to dig that bit up? When the orbital is finished, is the idea that lorries will be banned from the M6?

BTW - Guest Harvey Andrews, if it's really you, you are one of my heros.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:02 AM

Which will be never

Subject: RE: BS: UK Traffic problems - Solutions?
From: Grab
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:15 AM

*grin* "Teuton car man" took me a reread to get... :-)

Lanfranc, that's the same as the "4-way stop" in the States. And 2 ppl arriving at the same time will always cause chaos. At least at a roundabout, you shouldn't get stalled unless all four arrive at the same time (although learners, grannies and the terminally insecure will bugger things up anyway).

Milton Keynes is Roundabout City. But they're all 2-lane ones, and all the roads are dual carriageways, so it's notoriously good for testing your acceleration, braking and cornering. And for parking anyone who's not up to scratch in the scenery.

Graham.