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BS: Where Is God Book Two
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Subject: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:46 PM Book One of this thread is over 100 posts and can be found over here. The topic seems to be persisting for some reason :>) A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: SharonA Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:54 PM To GUEST Dan: Please see my post at the end of Part 1 of this thread... excuse me, Book One! Sharon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST,Paul Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:07 PM Being as 'God' doesn't exist, his/her/its ability to read is dubious... Having a second book, quite remarkable! Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: katlaughing Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:30 PM I thought it said "Where is Gordon Bok Two!" Darn, Spaw, him and his Gordon Bok Fans...got Gordon Bok on the brain! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:52 PM Kendall: Maybe so. But a petard was a short-muzzled brass-strapped cannon-like barrel whose special purpose was to be wedged up against the thick doors of forts or towns and blast holes in them. If one was careless mounting and firing a petard it could blow you up instead of the door --- thus "hoist by his own petard". A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:13 PM Ha! Ha! Ha! I've heard that one before. Prove to me that you exist, GUEST, Paul. I question your existence, as I have seen no physical proof of it. It's probably merely some deluded worshipper of yours who posted under the name GUEST, Paul, because it is plain to me that you do not exist. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:55 PM GUEST, Dan - Here's an interesting notion I came across in the works of Sri Aurobindo. Inert material Nature served as a laboratory in which to create growing, living beings (plants) and one-celled organisms...simple physical life, but without the capability of action or thought. The realm of physical life thus established served as a laboratory in which to create Vital beings (animals) which were conscious (in a reactive and largely instinctive sense) and were capable of action and of simple thought. The realm of Vital life thus established served as a laboratory in which to create Mental beings (humans) which were not only conscious, but were capable of higher thought, e.g. logic, deduction, theorizing about unrealized possibilities, imaging possible futures, creating art, science, culture, politics, technology, religions, and so on. Inert -> Physical Life -> Vital Life -> Mental Life Aurobindo asserts that where human beings err is in their assumption that the Mental stage is the LAST one in this ongoing process of evolution. He says that man is now on the threshold of superceding the mental stage and going into the Supramental...that is, God-Consciousness. Humanity is thus the present laboratory for creating God-in-man, the Self-realized being...and that, of course, has been known for a long time in India, only Aurobindo emphasizes that it is an accomplishment to be achieved while still in the physical body, while most of the older traditions tend to look to spiritual destinations beyond the physical. So... Mental Life -> Supramental Life (Self-realized...capable of expressing both Universal Love and one's unique individuality at the same time. This was what Jesus spoke of when he said: "The Father And I Are One" He wasn't saying he was above other people, he had just taken the next step in awareness and realized he was already One with the Source of All That Is. Just a very few people have done this, and they are the ones who are here to teach the rest of us how to do it...although most people have their minds on anything but that. They are mostly after money, property, security, comfort, adventure, success, and various other concepts that are well understood by the Mental, which cannot see itself as existing in Unity with everything, but is convinced that it is separate (and VULNERABLE!), and acts accordingly to protect and enlarge itself. Aurobindo states that the whole human race is meant to achieve the Supramental, while still IN THE PHYSICAL BODY, and eventually will. This is also why Jesus said to his followers that they could do all the miracles he had done, and even greater ones. He did not set himself apart, but set an example to be followed, as do all true spiritual teachers. His most powerful message was, in a nutshell: "You can do this too!" Instead of trying that, most Christians over the centuries settled for just worshipping him, and practicing the conventional behaviour of their time (whether it meant attending Mass or burning "witches" at the stake), which is NOT what he advised them to do at all. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST,Dan Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:49 PM Thanks Amos & LH. I think I can I think I can. . . . Well, to be brutally honest with myself and others in this anonymous format: I don't think I can. I think I can get myself to a faith that the unmanifested retains the same essence as it was In the Beginning, rather than changing in some fashion after forming rocks and stuff, but I don't think I can get any further in believing I can sense the essence of the unmanifest. I would too likely view it as mental masturabtion, just in trying, and if I succeed to any extent, I will likely attribute it to a biochemical hullucination. I know that sounds crude, and I wish it didn't sound insulting, but I don't know of a clearer way to state it properly. I will try. I will try. Even if a short internet blurb like this must be crude in design, my sincerity is behind the words. (LH your last sentence well summarizes Life of Brian.) (Sharon I'm not insulted it all. I've enjoyed a lot of your points all over the place here.) Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:30 AM I really regret the phrasing of my post last night, even with the excuse that the abrupt form of communication makes clarity impossible. It could too easily be perceived as implying that the limitations I own in my personal universe are equally applicable to others. That is not the case. I understand very well the full spectrum of abilities and achievements existing among all individuals in all endeavors, and similarly have no intent to criticize other's belief systems, which of course they don't usually like to reveal. That's a little better, without taking up any more space than earlier. Thanks to all of you for the give and take. It's another learning opportunity. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST,Dan Date: 30 Nov 01 - 10:37 AM ADD, after "and similarly have no intent to criticize other's belief systems,": (since my own seems to be built on sand) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:03 PM It's worth recalling that god is dog backwards and that rover sounds like jehovar. Does anyone remember the third of this treesome? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Bert Date: 30 Nov 01 - 02:42 PM Kat, don't go mistaking Gordon Bok for God, as many others might do. Interesting LH, when man has tried to put limits on the universe, those limits have always been too small. Dan, you're not anonymous, you're Dan. I know Sharon in the 3D world, and I enjoy a couple of her points too. (running and ducking) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 01 - 04:20 PM GUEST, Dan, your 30-Nov-01 - 10:30 AM post is really beautiful (along with your 30-Nov-01 - 10:37 AM post). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: kendall Date: 30 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM Amos, I can barely handle English, let alone French! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:26 PM Well, Kendall, here's the whole story on petards in plain Yankee English for ya! More Spaw's line, though, I would think. Now, let's see -- I lost the thread from God's location to intentinal gas, but if he's really everywhere I am sure that includes intenstinal gas pockets too. We wouldn't want to discriminate, now..... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: 53 Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:35 PM just as i said in book 1 where do you think he is? BOB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: CarolC Date: 30 Nov 01 - 08:46 PM Not telling, BOB. It's my little secret. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Deda Date: 30 Nov 01 - 09:57 PM Where is the force of gravity? Where is the law that determines the speed of light? Where is the two in 2+2=4? Where is the value of Pi?
The difference is that God (which is a metaphor, our little attempt to eff the ineffable, and nothing to get riled about) seems to hear us and respond to us in some mysterious ways, seems in fact to love us, seems to consist entirely of love. One of my favorite theologians is Paul Simon: And elsewhere, "After changes upon changes we are more or less the same, after changes we are more or less the same."
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 01 - 11:59 PM Wooeeee, Deda! I like yore style. Effing the ineffable is the nutshell version. :>) A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 01 - 03:51 PM Is it possible to tell the ineffable to "F" off? I think not. That may be why it is called the ineffable, eh? :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Matchbox cover Christianity From: Deda Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:34 PM Here's my theological question, honest. It seems to me that Christianity, by which I guess I mean many Christians, focus overly much on these parts of the New Testament: One, I am the way the truth and the light, and no one (gets to) the father except through me. Two, if you DON"T try to get in this particular door, you can't get in at all and God the all-loving, all-forgiving father has arranged for you to suffer eternal torment. That is the face of Christianity that really troubles me, because I think it's on exclusion from and even by God. Here is the face of Christianity that I see when I read the actual gospel accounts: Top of the line first and last message is this: Love one another and love God; God loves you. God loves EVERYONE, including prostitutes, Samaritans, tax collectors, all of the rejects of the world, and your job is to try to do the same. Everyone matters. Everyone is wanted, welcome, needed, loved. Don't worry about the things you worry about ("consider the lilies", etc.), trust god and love each other. If people hate you, love them. If people hit you, attack you, cause you pain, love them. Be kind, be loving, have faith. ALWAYS. I think that what makes Christianity really transcendant among religions is the focus on loving those who don't love you, the whole turn the other cheek stuff, which means reaching outside of your own club, tribe, block, etc., and loving your enemy. It seems to me an astonishing and nearly impossible directive, MUCH harder than I have generally seen talked about. And if all self-described Christians really focused on that, then it might really change the world. Unfortunately, that isn't where the focus tends to be put, in my experience. There are some wonderful and public Christians who do try to get us all to at least forgive, which is in the general direction of love -- like Sister Prejean, author of Dead Man Walking et al.
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Subject: RE: Matchbox cover Christianity From: Deda Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:36 PM Here's my theological question, honest. It seems to me that Christianity, by which I guess I mean many Christians, focus overly much on these parts of the New Testament: One, I am the way the truth and the light, and no one (gets to) the father except through me. Two, if you DON"T try to get in this particular door, you can't get in at all and God the all-loving, all-forgiving father has arranged for you to suffer eternal torment. That is the face of Christianity that really troubles me, because I think it's on exclusion from and even by God. Here is the face of Christianity that I see when I read the actual gospel accounts: Top of the line first and last message is this: Love one another and love God; God loves you. God loves EVERYONE, including prostitutes, Samaritans, tax collectors, all of the rejects of the world, and your job is to try to do the same. Everyone matters. Everyone is wanted, welcome, needed, loved. Don't worry about the things you worry about ("consider the lilies", etc.), trust god and love each other. If people hate you, love them. If people hit you, attack you, cause you pain, love them. Be kind, be loving, have faith. ALWAYS. I think that what makes Christianity really transcendant among religions is the focus on loving those who don't love you, the whole turn the other cheek stuff, which means reaching outside of your own club, tribe, block, etc., and loving your enemy. It seems to me an astonishing and nearly impossible directive, MUCH harder than I have generally seen talked about. And if all self-described Christians really focused on that, then it might really change the world. Unfortunately, that isn't where the focus tends to be put, in my experience. There are some wonderful and public Christians who do try to get us all to at least forgive, which is in the general direction of love -- like Sister Prejean, author of Dead Man Walking et al. Well, this will probably kill off this thread in a hurry. ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM Sing it Sistah!! Da REAL Deal is comin!!! Sing all 'bout it!!! Yas, yas, yas.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:46 PM Having survived a recent bout of extreme illness which included a few peeks over the edge of the known universe, much in the way that near-death experiences are supposedly wont to do, I am sorry to report that tunnels and light and relatives across the water are purely subjective overlays and are not, in fact, provided by the universe for the benefit of the egocentric soul leaving his or her grungy little body. There is no free MGM out there, but you can put one there if you wish -- and if you do, it will opulate itself in all the right colors and quirks, just as though you had imagined every detail. Because... well, point made. What is REALLY "out there", once you get over the self-satisfying solipsism, is a bunch of disembodied rank amateurs, poseurs, con men and touts looking for some virgin attention units to suck up from the unwary. More like a carny strip than a hereafter, with all the caveats in force. No diamond thrones or glorious rainbows of Infinite Might or naked beardlings or nightgowns in the air or flip-flopping feathered virgins, either. That's my report and I'm sticking to it. Your mileage may vary!! :>) And no snide remarks about projection, either. LOL! A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: heric Date: 02 Dec 01 - 04:18 PM Cancel my dictionary order, Amos. God, you can be a pain in the ass sometimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 02 Dec 01 - 05:02 PM Sorry, Dan...didn't see your toes there. I'm just doing my best to eff the ineffable in my own little corner. No offense intended. A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: heric Date: 02 Dec 01 - 06:55 PM Oops, I flamed, and on a God thread no less. Goin to do my Hail Marys. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: GUEST,--.)(.-- Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:39 PM The Earl is wise, but can we answer the real question, would the Law cause death and destruction? If it is not then it must be, or in 'divine' terminology it is everywhere and you would not know any difference if it was not but being greedy the human wants both a Heaven and lots of sin while living. Forgivness is guaranteed if you talk to yourself and apologise. In the meantime can the person who last sent into deep space vhf radio probes please stop it! Instead of learning about distant Planets these signals are causing accidents in Galactic Expressways. The Elohim will be comming back but please do not be alarmed there are several in the Team. The rest of the Civilization continues to waste valuable resources running about the Universe doing charitable works, only they sometimes make matters worse. Your Planet is such a case. When they last visited there were many Humans dying from food poisoning so the Elect showed them how to eat well and not get 'Gut rot'. The real answer is this, no being whicb you could precieve and many more that you could not have failed to find anything resembling the Divine thing your Religions postulate, however WE agree it is possible BUT advise that is it HIGHLY unlikely. I must be off again this time to Crath in the S Galaxy, more nonsense on hold. Thank You
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 01 - 04:20 PM Geez, this thread is really out of control now -- pulling in answers from Wannabe UFO drivers yet!!! Nice to know someone thinks they're someone out there!! :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:32 PM Okay, Amos, you've done it now. They had a grand old scenario laid out for you, old buddy...the instant review of your life just ended, with reflection upon the triumphs and screw-ups...followed by the mysterious trip down the tunnel (scary, scary!)...the appearance of the bright light (wow!)...the meeting with the Being of Light (could be anyone that suits you, such as Jesus, Mohammed, your departed father, the Virgin Mary, or maybe in your case, Howard Cosell)...the total explanation of REALITY where all your questions are finally answered...and the grand reunion with all your loved ones and Angelic guardians, plus a tour of the heavenly regions, followed by the usual period of relearning the non-material ropes...and then some sessions investigating the possibility of your next incarnation. Well, it's all been cancelled. Nixed. Expunged. When you kick the bucket, Mr. Cynic, you are going straight to a cruddy little office in a 3rd rate highrise in the most boring sector of the galaxy, where you will sort life insurance policies for the next 50 years and nothing otherworldly will happen at all. Nothing supernatural. No angels. No visions. No nothing. Boring, boring, boring! You asked for it, and you're gonna get it. :-) - LH
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Deda Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:50 PM Gosh, Amos, just think -- You coulda met Howard Cosell, and you blew it!! LOL You have to forgive my brother. Trouble is, he's known Everything since he was about 11 or 12 -- well, he may have learned a few additional guitar licks since then. But Knowing Everything is a turr'ble burden, especially when it goes on for over 40 years. Makes it damn near impossible not to be a KnowItAll. Hugs and love, bro. (I am Oz, the Great and Terrible. Pay no attention to the little sister behind the curtain.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 03 Dec 01 - 11:35 PM Little Hawk: Thanks, mate -- best laugh I've had this week. Much needed -- I go back to work tomorrow! And I have forgotten all my buzz phrases!! Tell ya what it is, byes -- Oi've had a surfeit of fookin' Disney on this mortal coil an' am not about to hire on for more hereafter, thanks very much. Now, Toto, you can pull all the curtains in the house down for all of me, but I'm convinced that 90% of the Technicolor posters we have been given as clues to the hereafter are pretty much about that -- as true to life as the "Gone With the Wind" posters on the Westport downtown movie theater entrance were true portrayals of life in Atlanta circa 1862-4. In other words, not very. Look at it this way: there's an age when you find yourself in Disneyworld and you are absolutely thrilled to throw your arms around a towering plastic Goofy Dog or Minnie Mouse and hug the bejeezus out of 'em and are relatively sure that someone really lives in Cinderella's castle, that Davy Crockett is right over there in Frontier Land, still shooting bears or som'p'n.... and so on. Somewhere along that line you go through a process -- after which you smile nicely and suspend disbelief and laugh at how cute it all is, but you understand it is a commercial, mechanico-electronic enterprise, not a "land" or a "world" and certainly not "The" world. In other words you grow up! It is surely debatable whether you NEED a Santa, an Easter Bunny, a bogie man or a Mickey Mouse stirring up your immature mind in the first place -- I seriously doubt it. But if you have any drive to survive, you grow up, right? You rethink the scene and get a little bit more real about what is, what is not, who really makes things happen and why.... So let''s look around, since we're examining this process, and see if there are any OTHER plastic pseudo-entities that we have been handed whole cloth with little or no genuine bearing on reality, and up from which it is time for us to grow. See any? Icons, myths, synthetic super-beings of any sort, garden flamingos or back yard saviors, whatever you can find... Then p'raps, to apply the process correctly, we should start thinking about what growing up in this context might mean, and what sort of a more "real" context might explain the flocks of fabulous nincompoopery with which we have all been saddled to one or another degree. The details are left as an exercise for the...whatever. And, Deda, I am NOT a KnowitAll. So there!! Am not!! Maybe I used to be, but that was before I acquired Humility. That's the nasme of my large Lawn Flamingo. ;>) Warm regards, Amos |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: SharonA Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:56 AM To GUEST, Dan: Whew! Glad to hear no offense was taken, since none was meant. Thanks for the compliment! To Bert: Wish I'd read your post before I saw you last Sunday; I could've dealt with you then. But I'll see you again soon, so keep ducking! ;^) LH/Amos: I don't know about tunnels and Howard Cosell and such, but I had a friend in college who had an out-of-body experience during an operation (real? or a side effect of anesthesia?), and I myself have had the experience of watching my life flash before my eyes (across the grill of a school bus as its brakes locked and it slid toward my car... it stopped just in time, fortunately, and never touched me!). Still, I don't believe these experiences have anything to do with the supernatural, just with the brain itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: heric Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:14 AM Sharon: I should have seen my life flash before my eyes when the horse I was on literally did a summersault down a steep, granite rubble bank way up in the Ansel Adams wilderness. Time moved so slowly I could have reviewed my life four times over. Instead, you know what went through my mind? -- "If I get paralyzed, my wife is gonna be SO PISSED." Dan What's the last thing to go through a bee's mind when he hit's the windshield? His ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: mousethief Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:58 PM I understand people who believe in God shooting off their mouths (or keyboards) about it. Just as people who've discovered a wonderful new brand of soda might rave about it to their buds. What I don't quite get is why people who don't believe in God are such evangelists. Is it the need to pour cold water on others' joy? The need to see your words in print (albeit only on a web page in most cases)? An overweaning jubilation at the sound of your own voice? Curious, Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 01 - 05:27 PM Gee, Alex, I hope you're not referrin' to me!!! Whatever gave you the idea I "don't believe" (whatever that may mean) in "God"?. I am a man of faith, believe me or not!! Hope you weren't leaping to any preemie conclusions, Oh favorite of mousethieves!! A.
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: SharonA Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:15 PM Maybe I'm one of those to whom Alex refers, Amos. If so, Alex, then no, I don't mean to douse other people's joy in their faith. I'm simply expressing myself, the same as everyone else on the Forum does, and has a right to do, in hopes of finding a connection with others who think and feel as I do, and also in hopes of furthering communication and understanding between groups of people who think and feel differently from one another. It's been a number of years since I slowly weaned myself away from my overbearing fundamentalist-Christian upbringing, and I haven't found very many people in the 3-D world with whom I can discuss that change freely and safely. But I have found quite an accepting atmosphere here, even among people who do not agree with me. Even so, I have tried very hard not to be "evangelistic", as you so adroitly put it, about "testifying" to my beliefs or lack thereof, nor to give in to the temptation to go on ad nauseum about the bitterness I feel toward the "Christian soldiers" in whose camp I was a prisoner of war, so to speak. However, I agree with the sentiment Blackcatter has expressed in several threads that it is important for people of any particular faith to realize and accept that there are many, many others in the world with whom those people share few, or none, of the articles of their faith (instead of assuming that everyone believes in the same concept of God, or feeling threatened because they don't). I do not say this to try to "convert" any believer into a non-believer. I say this as a plea for tolerance and kindness. Sharon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: mousethief Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:22 PM Tolerance and kindness I can agree wholeheartedly with. Believe me, I am under no illusions as to how many people share my understanding of God. Nor do I wish to muzzle anybody. I just wonder why some people --you will have to decide if this shoe fits you or not-- seem to be very loud in their anti-God tirade. What do they stand to gain? Like I said, I can understand someone wanting to talk about something they believe in or something they admire, whether it's a new girlfriend or the joys of Morris dancing or whatever. But to be noisy about a negative assertion doesn't seem to have the requisite motivation (my own harping about Bob Dylan notwithstanding). I'm sorry if you felt this was a barb pointed for you, SharonA. I have nothing but respect for you, based on our (admittedly limited) interactions here on the 'Cat so far. We can agree to disagree about God without rudeness or felt need to convert one another, I hope. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Dec 01 - 09:20 PM Good points there, Alex. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: Amos Date: 04 Dec 01 - 09:38 PM Sharon: Beautifully put; I stand in the shadow of your wisdom! MouseT: Apologies for shooting off my mouth, Thief. I meant no attack on any particular conscience, and in fact I was saying something positive, badly camouflaged though it was. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where Is God Book Two From: SharonA Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:06 PM Hi again, Alex and Amos, and thank you both for the kind words. Alex, I have a great deal of respect for you as well, again based on our interaction here at Mudcat (and on taking a gander at your website!). I agree; let's agree to disagree – nicely! No offense taken, since I'm absolutely sure none was meant. I didn't think you were pointing a finger at me specifically, but since I'm one of the "people who don't believe in God," I wanted to be sure to clarify my own motives for mentioning and discussing that position on this Forum. I enjoy the occasional friendly debate, but one thing I do not EVER want to do is to be evangelistic (militantly, crusadingly zealous) about my non-belief – I don't want to stir people's emotions in order to force them to the thoughtless decision to abandon their faith – and if I ever come across that way I hope some kind person will send me a PM advising me, in the nicest possible way, to knock it off! Now, then, to speculate about what the very loudly tirading non-believers stand to gain: (souls for anti-Christ? ...just kidding!) Well, there's ample evidence that some twisted people do derive sadistic pleasure from "pour[ing] cold water on others' joy," but those people seem to come from every faith and non-faith. More prevalent, I suspect, is the need to push back strongly against the onslaught of the evangelical fundamentalist – or fundamentalist-pretender, as our John Hardly put it – because of concern that basic freedoms of speech and assembly might be abridged (talk about "requisite motivation"!). The group that calls itself "The Moral Majority" certainly does not speak for everyone who lives by a set of morals (whether connected with organized religion or not), so some of those other moral people very likely feel the need to speak for themselves... and the need to speak for people who cannot do so out of fear of physical attack, intimidation or religious discrimination. In the US, at least, any group that wants its concerns addressed must not only be vocal but also present a unified front in order to impress politicians with the importance of satisfying its needs for purposes of re-election. Therefore, the more people rallying to its cause, the better. So the vociferousness that seems like a zeal to convert may actually be a call to gather together others of like mind for future political action. On the other hand, it could simply be that some "noisy" atheists feel strongly about their position. There are all sorts of "negative assertions" about which people debate hotly with those who hold the opposing view (heck, even people of faith have divided their churches over differences in the articles of that faith, and people of different faiths have gone to war with one another and killed in the name of each faith's negative assertion that the other faith is invalid). What do people in the midst of a heated argument ever stand to gain? Their opponents' capitulation at best, or a release of pent-up emotions at least. This is neither to justify nor to condemn any "anti-God tirade"; I'm just thinking of possible answers to Alex's question. Sharon |