BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)

Subject: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST,Julie B at home
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 07:02 AM

Yesterday (23rd Dec) we were woken up at 6am by the sound of a fire engine across the road at our neighbours' house (John & Daphne). Flames were leaping from the back of the building and the firemen had just started to smash their way in, and thick back smoke poured out.

It was a huge relief to see that their car wasn't in the drive or garage and another neighbour confirmed that they'd actually gone to visit one of their sons and his family 30 miles away overnight, so nobody was in the house. The alarm was raised by their 3 year old girl in the attached semi-detached house. She'd woken up and gone to tell her mum about the smell in her room (the smoke/fire was working its way through from next door). The parents (Phil & Carrie), their two small children and their 12 year old nephew who was staying quickly left the house, phoned 999 and the fire brigade soon arrived. They say if the little girl hadn't woken up when she did, the whole family would have been dead within 10-15 minutes.

It took 3 fire crews to put the fire out. John & Daphne's house, though still standing, is pretty much gutted inside. The couple of rooms that aren't are, naturally, severely smoke damaged. There's talk that the whole house may have to be demolished and rebuilt. After the forensic team had finished, we walked through the ashes on the ground floor. The Christmas turkey, left out in a roasting tin to defrost, sits in the ruins of what was the kitchen. "It's cooked now", said John.

It appears that the house was broken into from the back and that the arsonist/burglars drank all the alcohol they could find while ransacking the house before they set fire to it and left.

John & Daphne, who both retired a few years ago, have lived here for 30 years. Their house was lovely, and they, like most people in the street, are excellent neighbours. Phil and Carrie were still settling into their new home having only moved in a couple of months ago (their house has also been left with much smoke damage). The whole neighbourhood is in shock, and so angry. Naturally, everyone is offering what support they can, and a collection has been held, but one still feels so helpless. The predominant feelings at the impromptu meeting, held at a neighbours house last night, were horror and anger, and frustration in knowing that even if the Police find those responsible, the arsonists might be 'let off' with a warning by a judge, especially if they turn out to be young (e.g. under sixteen).

Sorry to bother the Mudcat with this, but it helps to 'talk' about it within an objective forum. It's Christmas day tomorrow, but it's certainly going to be a subdued one in our neighbourhood. I just feel sick, and can't stop thinking what those families are going through…and what might have happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 07:39 AM

Dear Julie- I'm so sorry! Of course you can talk about it here, just as you would if you arrived at a session and needed to talk about it before you could play. I don't understand the depths of anger and hate that can lead people to such acts, no matter what time of year. I'll be holding you all in the Light.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 08:12 AM

Sorry for your friends Julie....a terrible thing and a terrible loss. Sounds as though you have fine neighbors who, as well as yourself, will be of great help. How fortunate the other family is okay.......And I hope the police are successful. I'd personally string these fuckers up by the balls! They nay not have taken a life, but they took away a lifetime of memories.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM

Julie, I am so sorry to hear of this. I'll be sending good thoughts and love your way and to Daphne and John, their neighbours and that little angel who woke them all up; she must feel very brave.

There's a Mudcatter who lost an entire house and all of thier posessions to a lightening fire 3 years ago this last summer. I can tell you, from experience with them, that anything you can offer: a shoulder, help with mucking out, common household items, and just listening can help. It takes a long time first for the shock to set in and then to start in on living again, but it can take a lot longer to feel as though one really has "come back" to really live.

One thing their friends did was help them get set up in an apt., outfitting it with everything they'd need, even down to a few knicknacks to make it seem homier. Also, if your neighbours ever shared pictures, music, etc. with anyone, if those persons have copies, they could share them with them or give them back. The Mudcatter had done some beautiful wood carvings, which were all lost. Lo and behold another Mudcatter had a picture of one which had been received by email. It meant a lot to at least have that record of what they once had.

I am sorry, I know I am kind of jumping ahead, but we've just been through so much of this over the past couple of years, it is fresh in my mind.

Also, we had a house fire once, started by a crumbly furnace box. Fortunately we were all awake and put it out, but the fire chief said if we hadn't been, in ten minutes we would have all died that night. I am so glad to hear that your neighbours all survived.

I hope the police can catch the criminals and do more than just a slap on the wrist. They should be made to clean up the whole site with their bare hands and then help with the rebuilding, as well as spend time in gaol and pay restitution.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 10:16 AM

I much prefer the Spaw approach, string them up by the balls, but as Julie says, if caught they will probably get a slap on the wrist from some senile judge (of whom we seem to have a fair few in the UK) after having been shown to be oh so deprived by some namby pamby liberal twat.

All the best to your friends and neighbours Julie, Let me know if I can send anything their way, I'll sign in so you can pm me as "Sledge"

Regards

Stuart

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 10:26 AM

Another big help is to arrange for storage of things that will be donated, until they have the slack to sort through and see what they can use, and a place to put it.

A HUGE help is for someone with business experience to help on the insurance job. Being the administrator on a fire claim is nearly a fulltime job, and it's hard to do what you need to do on a daily basis for your own recovery and getting on with life, while docmenting all you lost. You tend to miss noticing things you should have claimed, or to let slide things that are hard to document. But a no-nonsense admin can cut through a lot of the crap and do a lot of the legwork and paperwork. The insurance companies respond to this-- because they know that if it goes to court you will be quite well prepared.

Kids especially need something of their own to cling to during recovery-- something soft and clean and very personal. And adults need to know that you really do want to know how they are, and that a one-minute reply that turns into a crying jag of some duration is relaxedly OK with you.

~Susan

(Former Red Cross manager, and fire survivor too)

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 11:52 AM

I'm horrified to hear of such a random & senseless act of vicious cruelty; at any time of the year these "people" would deserve whipping (by the neighbours & family/friends!) of the victims, but 2 days before Christmas?! I hope they nail 'em to a tree. Your neighbours are very fortunate to be surrounded by such good and supportive people; as you say, what MIGHT have happened doesn't bear thinking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 12:06 PM

Thank goodness everyone's alive! But so sad that they've lost the treasures and artifacts of a lifetime. (A disaster can't touch the memories, but the photographs and memorabilia that are worth so much more than the expensive stuff -- and usually can't be replaced.)

I can't condone theft, but I can understand it. Vandalism and destruction, on the other hand, makes no sense whatsoever.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Deda
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 12:28 PM

I am so sorry to hear about this. For what it's worth, here is another personal experience, many decades ago: When Amos and I were very small (10 and 6) we had a terrible house fire very late on Christmas night. (It was not arson, might have been electrical.) We were all saved by our German shepherd dog, who barked until our exhausted parents finally woke up (the dog had to pull the blankets off the bed to get them up). All ten people --parents, siblings, guests, grandmother-- in the house got out safely, our grandmother's burned hand being the only real human casualty, but the dog went back in and died in the fire. He was waiting at the bedroom door of someone who had escaped out her window, leaving her door locked. Our cat died between the dog's paws, where she had probably gone for protection. The house was gutted and had to be rebuilt, which took many months. Our parents had a wonderful and extensive library which was destroyed, along with all the Christmas presents, and the remains of the Christmas meal-- which had been an entire pig with an apple in its mouth, believe it or not. The belongings we had that did survive the fire smelled of smoke forever after. Anyway, people rallied around us in unbelievable ways--not only our friends but even people we didn't know. The town poured out presents of clothes, toys, household goods, books, places for us to stay, every kind of help and support imaginable. (Our mother said afterward, "Always smile at people -- you don't know whose underwear you're wearing.") Our dog got a posthumous medal from the ASPCA and we were given a new puppy from the same line of dogs. (That puppy became the dog that raised us.) Disasters are terrible and traumatic, and the best thing about human beings is how we turn, even rush to offer help and love and support to each other after something awful has happened. I hope that your neighbors find the level of love and support that our family had. I hope that they get through this acute period of grief and shock with the help of people who love and care about them, whether they know them or not. I hope that when they look back at this terrible event in their lives, they remember the help even more clearly than they remember the damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: kendall
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 12:54 PM

Sometimes it's hard to believe that there are more good people than bad. My condolences to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Gillie
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 01:48 PM

What a terrible thing to happen, especially so at this time of year. It is good that these people have so many friends to rally round and help them. Let's hope that who ever did this get caught and get put to rights.

Thoughts are with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 01:58 PM

That is so sad Julie. Makes me feel very powerless....and lucky.

Kendall, I know what you mean....but yeah, the good people far outweigh the bad. It's just that the troubled ones have the power to hurt WAY beyond their actual numbers.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:54 PM

Do tell you nieghbors that my wife and I hold them in the light during this terrible time, and are happy that they were not injured beyond the terrible loss of property. Better new year, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 05:36 PM

It's all very sad... the loss... and the fact that some peoples lives can be so low as to get off on this kind of behavour...

poor buggers all'round...

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 06:11 PM

Please tell you neighbors that I am thinking of them, and wish I could do more than that. My aunt and uncle lost everything but their lives in a house fire almost 25 yrs. ago. The biggest material loss was Uncle's coin collection--just a melted heap of metal that the insurance would not cover. The up side was that they finally got indoor plumbing when the house was re built. Perhaps there will be a silver lining somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 07:12 PM

Thank you all so much for your responses and personal stories; they're really helpful.

We've been to see Daphne & John tonight (they're staying with one of their sons who also lives in our street). The story filled the front page of the local newspaper today, and many people have got in touch to offer help and to express their outrage and sympathy; Daphne said "I never knew we had so many friends".

All the windows are now securely boarded up now, making it as black as a tomb inside. A structural engineer is yet to come and survey the damage, but the insurance company loss assessor said it was one of the worst cases he's ever seen. A total rebuild still seems on the cards. Carrie & Phil's house is severely smoke damaged throughout.

I'll keep this thread updated with any new developments, meanwhile, Merry Christmas to all.

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: 53
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 07:22 PM

sorry th hear about the tragedy, i hope they catch the bums who did it, but most of all i'm glad no one was hurt. MERRY CHRISTMAS, BOB AND GLENDA

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 07:53 PM

Pete & Pat Slade (Bouquet Garni) had the same a few years back. While they were at a gig an ex-wife of a previous occupant torched the property within a week of them moving in. They came home to a living fire. They were lucky, they had enough money to buy clothes etc and it took maybe £1000 to get a semblance of normality! The insurance took a bit longer than the laundarette. The result is that Pat can't rest easy out of the renovated house and doesn't do many gigs now.
I don't know what the solution is but it is something to look out for and maybe counsel them on.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 08:21 PM

Where is this house, is there anything anyone here can do??

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 01:22 PM

Yeh !! We returned from our first "proper " holiday some years ago to find we had been burgled. Personal items stolen, a whole world of insurance stuff to sort out. etcetcetc. I sympathise and empathise totally with the victims in every case of this kind. Fuck circumstances and whatever motivates these cretins. As has already been said, String 'em up by the balls. Merry Christmas to all 'catters and decent people.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 01:34 PM

What a terrible thing to have happen. I am sorry for what they have just experienced (and will continue to do so for some time to come).

I will keep them in my heart and prayers and hope that everything can get sorted out. As for the cretins who did this... What is done is done. Perhaps they are chortling mightily as we click back and forth. I hope not. Perhaps they will see the enormity of what they have done. As for what their fate should be?...

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 03:26 PM

At the risk of sounding like a namby-pamby liberal twat, I'd like to make a comment on "what should be done" with those who caused this terrible pain. The urge to "string 'em up by the balls" is understandable. I think, though, that this may be a good opportunity to practice what's been called Restorative Justice (as opposed to the traditional Retributive Justice). Here's a simple definition, taken from the Restorative Justice website of Prison Fellowship International: "Restorative justice can be defined as a response to crime that focuses on restoring the losses suffered by victims, holding offenders accountable for the harm they have caused, and building peace within communities."

Some of the suggestions mentioned above (such as having the offenders participate in cleaning up the property) fit with this principle. Certainly, not all crimes are amenable to this type of community response, but this one seems like it would be. The basic principles of a restorative justice program, again from the PFI website, are:

1.Encounter: Create opportunities for victims, offenders and community members who want to do so to meet to discuss the crime and its aftermath
2.Amends: Expect offenders to take steps to repair the harm they have caused
3.Reintegration: Seek to restore victims and offenders as whole, contributing members of society
4.Inclusion: Provide opportunities for parties with a stake in a specific crime to participate in its resolution

If, as is likely, the perpetrators are young, it might just help provide an opportunity for the to become "whole, contributing members of society" instead of going to jail and learning to be angry, nonproductive, habitual criminals. It sounds like Julie's neighborhood may be the kind of place where this approach could work. My understanding is that in settings where this kind of program is in place (including cultures like the Maori in New Zealand, where it is the traditional method of justice), both victims and offenders have felt satisfaction with the results. Just a thought, at this season of peace.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 06:32 PM

That sounds really wonderful where it can be applied, Mark. Much as some of the Native American cultures do here, also. Thanks for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 07:01 PM

Well...though I feel like saying quite a lot about this, I won't....other than expressing sympathy for the victioms & the others this has affected, & relief that no-one was actually physically hurt.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: cyder_drinker
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:49 AM

"Restorative Justice" my arse. These little turds should be cleaned out of the gene pool.
There are far too many "do-gooders" out there, releasing these scummy criminal shits into our midst where the first thing they are going to do is exactly the same as they did before - screw some other unfortunate soul's life up.
An eye for an eye - I would suggest that they not be strung up by the balls, they should be locked in a burning house.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:03 AM

The fire at John and Daphne's is currently reported online at:

www.northantsnews.com

You probably won't be surprised to know that the local newspaper got most of the details wrong (e.g. address, names, ages!). The couple are:

John & Daphne Coombs (i.e. no 'e' in Coombs) of Croyland ROAD (i.e. not 'Avenue'), Wellingborough, Northants (I won't give the house nummber but our postman knows where to forward any mail). I know they've already received many messages of sympathy from complete strangers which are of great consolation at this terrible time.

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 01:08 PM

Sympathy to your friends Julie. Regarding this sort of event, I have recently qualified as a teacher (VERY mature one too!!) and feel despair at the behaviour of all too many of our children. Whilst they are in the minority (at the moment) there are too many who do not have any consideration for anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:38 PM

Julie, thanks for the article link and also the correction of their name spelling and addy. I will send them a card of support.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: John J
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:09 AM

A bastard of a thing to happen to anybody at any time of the year. But what about the psychological effect on the victims? Your neighbours are retired which probably makes the not too young. A stunt like this can cause terrible effects on the young, just think what it would do to the elderly.

John and Daphne are going to need a huge amount of support to help them get over this.

IMHO, stringing the offenders up by the balls is far too lenient.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: GUEST,Julie B at home
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 09:37 AM

The link to the online newspaper article has changed. It's now here

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Guessed
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 10:49 AM

I'm all for making the punishment fit the crime.
Getting them to clean the mess up, rub their noses in it. BUT if the miscreants do not subscribe to the moores of a society that doesn't work. They are more likely to cause more damage as they clean up.
anything you do to force them against their will will re-inforce their dis-association from society. Society is their pasture, their forraging, their RIGHT in a "me generation" kind of way.
take away the things they value most - and in 90% (not my figures) of the cases that would be DRUGS.
give 'em cold turkey, it won't solve the problem but would be a whole lot more entertaining than the mental wallpaper known as "reality TV".

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Julie B
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:21 PM

Guessed - I'm afraid I tend to agree. I can't see how Restorative Justice will 'get through' to drug addicts or those with no code of ethics. It seems simplistic wishful thinking to expect habitual criminals to feel shame/guilt in the way we would.

My father reads the local papers every day and has taken an interest in following the fortunes of one local criminal since youth. Twenty years he was being sent on exotic foreign holidays, given special support and endless 'second chances' etc in a futile effort to persuade him to mend his ways. Only recently dad read that he's been sent to prison yet again (nowadays for more serious crimes, of course).

Julie

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Julie B
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 12:27 PM

...a local radio DJ suggests that anyone found guilty of committing a crime, found to be a drug addict, should be locked away indefinitely (and supplied with drugs, if that's what they want). Only let them out when they choose to come off the drugs, and drug test regularly once released.

With the police saying over 90 percent of crime is now drug related, maybe this kind of radical thinking isn't so daft.

Julie B

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 09:08 PM

Thank God noone was killed. That's the thing to focus on. Whether it's silly young vandals or a bolt of lightning doesn't really make any difference. Except if it's a bolt of lightning people don't waste their time talking about fantasy vengeance and making up fantasy scenarios about why it happened. (Unless they believe in curses and so forth."

However it happens it shakes people up, and makes you feel insecure and scared about even worse things happening.

I had a trivial by comparison piece of vandalism happen to me a little before Christmas. Left my car parked in a respectable but quiet and isolated area of a nice little town while I was singing songs in an annual song festival. Some young yobs kicked in every panel and broke off a few bits, and the insurance company wrote the car off because proper repairs would cost more than the value of the car.

I was buzzing with resentful puzzlement as to why people do stuff like that. I mean, if you want to be a hoodlum there are so much more enjoyable ways of breaking the law than putting dents in a pretty mature car. I was pleased though when I phoned home and said something had happened to the car, and my wife's reaction was predominantly relief that I hadn't been in a crash and got hurt myself or hurt someone else.

In the unlikely event of them catching the kids who did it(I know that it was kids, because they left trainer prints all over the bonnet, I'd say 14 or 15 year old by the size), I'd go for restorative justice every time, and forget the vengeance bit. By the time they'd learnt the skills to fix my car and fixed it I think they'd have learnt a few useful lessons, and the car wouldn't have those fancy dimples it's currently wearing. (Mind, they are a great anti-theft device...)

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 10:19 PM

We just went through the kids clothes today and gathered up what we could for a mother of four that belongs to Connie's church. While they were in church last Sunday, their house and everything in it including this years Christmas presents was burned to the ground....obvious arson. And are you ready? The police are holding (on minor charges til they can make a case) the ex-husband and father of the two youngest kids. He did it for a fact, but they want all evidence in before they charge him.

Unbelievable.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 02 - 10:27 PM

Unbelievable is right, Spaw, but at least he did it when they were away and NOT with an eye for killing the children so that "no one else should have them" as has been done in other cases. Still, that is terrible.

If one reads the original post of Mark's about restorative justice, I believe he was careful to say it might only work in certain segments of society. It works in some of the Native communities because it is their tradition; possibly one we could learn from.

And, I am not saying I agree or condone drug abuse, but there are people who argue making drugs legal would cut down on a lot of the crime. Who knows? Whatever, it certainly spawns terrible acts, as it is now.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM

In the case that started the thread "the arsonist/burglars drank all the alcohol they could find", so maybe there's no reason to go assuming the drugs involved were the illegal sort. And I don't imagine many people think that going down the path of prohibiting alcohol, Taliban style, would make it any less likely.

These things happen. Fortunately they don't happen as much as we think they happen, now we have all the channels of news, including the Internet, so that we get to hear about them. The fact that they are infrequent doesn't make them hurt any less, but it means there are a lot of people who have escaped it happening to them and who can help out one way or another. That includes being ready to change things that need changing.

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: Murrey
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 07:34 PM

Such a tragic thing to happen.It's always those special things that can't be replaced that's so hard to deal with . But I have to agree with Rick,hearing about how many people have come forward since the newspaper ran the story only proves that good people outnumber the bad. I hope the new year brings new hope and peace to your friends Murrey

Subject: RE: BS: Friends' house ransacked and burnt (UK)
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 02 - 07:42 PM

In my most recent post, only my first paragraph was in answer to Spaw, the rest was in answer to some of the others.

Thanks,

kat