BS: Recent Member Epiphanies

Subject: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free, and staying that way
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:10 PM

Since I believe it is important to reinforce the genuinely positive, rather than the merely popular prevailing view, I wanted to congratulate the few Mudcat members who have recently spoken out against the Mudcat Membership Mafia, who really are the problem here at Mudcat.

People really do need to get clear on this--the major problems with the forum aren't being caused by the occassional guest troll, for they are present everywhere in cyberspace. Rather, there is a handful of members who, with the tacit support of the Joe Clones, Joe Offer, and Max, are responsible for the pretty serious degradation of this forum, particularly in the last year or so.

They are the folks here who are playing the flame warrior game. Anyone with any experience on the Internet a forum that has been "taken over" by these types of people, knows that is just what we are seeing happen here at Mudcat. They haven't won the day yet, because many fine folks are doing their best to keep to the high road by not playing the infantile troll/flame games we see in BS threads all the time, and increasingly (in my view) music threads.

The main tactic the Mudcat Mafia uses to dominate the forum is the member/guest thing. It is the simplistic member=good, guest=bad thing which has become much more of a problem than the stolen "Mudcat regular" identity problem ever was. Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't have been appalled if someone did such a thing to me. But I will say this: the response by Max (ie the instituting the member/guest log-in) has clearly caused many more problems than it solved.

The member/guest log-in created the opportunity for the flame warriors to create an "us vs them" dichotomy, which they continue to use to manipulate the more mature and responsible membership. Frankly, I've been pretty surprised by some of the Mudcat members who have fallen into this trap over time. I thought they were much too intelligent for that, but some of them have repeatedly proven me wrong.

But that wasn't my reason for posting. My reason for posting was for saying "good on ya" to those who are beginning to come around, and see the forest for the trees. But I would make this suggestion, by posing a question:

Do you really think post a PM to Mudcat members when they flame and troll, will solve the problem? Or does the nature of community policing, if it is going to work, require that we publicly admonish the offenders when they do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:20 PM

I dunno. My take has usually been that Guest or EMmber is irrelevant EXCEPT when the anonymity is used to avoid the REAL groundrules of baseline courtesy, the case where hurtful, sarcastic, snide, underhanded, vituperous, carping, generalized, callow, derisive, mocking, ad hominem, illogical, persiflage and raillery are offered from the stupidly-conceived "safety" of an anonymous position, leaving others with no concept of the source or to whom they are communicating. This is not behavior designed to encourage communication, dialogue or understanding. It is craven, usually, and childish in the extreme.

THAT is the kind of post I get inclined to flame, although i have learned mostly to forebear.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:24 PM

*roflmao*

Do you REALLY think people are going to fall for that horseshit???

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: nutty
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:27 PM

I could respond more fully if I could understand what the hell you are going on about.

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies???

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:29 PM

Sorry, Amos....obviously (I hope) my post was directed to the pile of pseudo-intellecual, well-written, manipulative child-mentality crap at the top of the thread, & not your post!

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:34 PM

This one just cracks me up!! This is the best one yet. The unfortunate piece is that some folks will fall for it.

This is a simple attempt to try and shift the premise away from the problem. This "GUEST" is attempting to assume a new role in order to maintain his/her ability to play their little games. The reason? Simple, it is because they know that their actions have caused the moderators of this forum to have to look at some solutions. One of those would be to require registration to post, and to add a code beside the name which represented the ISP number. While the code wouldn't tell you the actual location, it would give you a very clear idea who is doing this crap. By the way, this is not my idea, but was relayed to me by a very bright Mudcatter.

Don't buy into this load of shite. It is started by folks that will lose their ability to feed their psych problems through this forum.

Ignore, Ignore, Ignore.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free and staying that way
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

Amos, I am not flaming here. I honestly want to know why, if the anonymity thing is so disturbing to you, you on the Internet?

As countless people have pointed out, there are many members who remain anonymous and active here, because they use a pseudonym. Now, over time they may reveal some "personal" information about who they claim to be (remember, the whole idea of an identity is very slippery on-line because so many people misrepresent themselves), which makes the people they are trying to interact with feel more secure about them. But really, unless you have met and become close friends with someone here on Mudcat, you really don't know much about anyone here, and whether they really are who and what they claim to be on-line.

I understand that some members have met one another, and that those folks really do feel a sense of community here with one another which is genuine and legitimate. But most people lurking and/or posting here have never met another Mudcat member, and likely never will. Remember, there are many folks who lurk here and post only rarely. Some are members, some are guests. They usually don't reveal personal information about themselves in forums like these. The people who post to these forums have needs of the extrovert/performer. But a whole lot of folks are observers. More quiet and thoughtful.

At any rate, I just wanted to point out that while some here seem to using the anonymity issue as justification for playing the flame warrior game, by claiming they are doing it on behalf of the majority of us, let me just say this. For me, anonymity is a total non-issue because I understand it to be part of the nature of the beast known as the Internet. Whether someone posts anonymously or with a pseudonym (which I find much more annoying, frankly) or with their real life name doesn't matter to me one iota. I respond to what the post says, not to who is writing it. To my way of thinking, that is the best one can do in an environment where I never see, hear, smell, touch the person I am communicating with. It is nearly impossible to suss out the nature and essence behind a post, unless one becomes familiar with the poster. While that is the case for some here, it will never be the case for everyone, because there will always be strangers and guests coming and going freely here.

As I said, the Mudcat Mafia acts as if this forum were their private clubhouse, and as if the strangers and guests coming and going here all the time and to be viewed as bad people with sinister motives, until "proven" otherwise. To be proven otherwise requires that they reveal personal information to a group of people they don't know in a public space, without any way of protecting their vulnerable selves. To my way of thinking, that is just too much to ask of many people. For the gregarious, extrovert types, that isn't usually a problem. But for many of the rest of the folks who stumble in here, I'm betting more lurk or leave than ever become regulars, guest or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:07 PM

Well, at least your last post has some pretty good content, but when you refer to folks as the Mudcat Mafia, you blow it. And you reveal an agenda with that comment, and comments like the one suggesting that outgoing folks aren't "thoughtful" that give me pause. If those are your real thoughts, then you are a problem that needs fixing. If they are not, would you be so kind as to modify them.

The simple fact is, most of the regular visitors to this site, whether registered or not, are decent folks who simply see the world through eyes and ears colored by music. But the efforts of the flamers/trollers to control and manipulate for their sick needs, have caused the discussions to come to this.

After re-reading your intial and second post, I have had a small change of heart on this thread. I think you are sincere in its topic. I don't think you are one of the folks who I dislike intensely for their efforts to run good folks out and control this site for their own sick ends. If that is the case, then maybe this thread will have merit. If not, ..................... well, we shall see.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:11 PM

How about if everyone had to use their real name, and, post their profile in the resources? Bet that would cut down on the attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:12 PM

Hmmmm......its strange (& frustrating at the same time) that you can sit down & make the pretense of a reasoned argument, 'GUEST Cf&stw'. Its a great pity that someone as erudite & literate as yourself is afflicted by this desire to cause POINTLESS trouble.

Surely you don't believe what your saying about the Members/Guest situation, so surely you don't believe youre going to make the slightest bit of difference to anyone who reads it?

I know that part of your motive is just posting something, ANYTHING cos you think its an annoyance to us, & that we are playing into your hands by replying, especially at length.....but Hell, at least we are posting to some purpose...what the Hell is yours???

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free and staying that way
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:13 PM

This GUEST Big Mick, has always posted filling in the from: blank with many different things (like the current one, which is new), or by simply leaving the from: line blank. I'm not trying to do anything new, or assume a new role at all. In fact, you could even say I'm being my same old reduntant self, harping on about the same thing. And that would be correct.

Where others have difficulty with me in particular is trying to figure out when I'm posting, or when another anonymous or pseuodnymous guest is posting. I assure you, I am not the only person posting at Mudcat as an anonymous guest or using multiple, constantly changing guest log-in names.

I don't know how many of you will ever figure out that only part of the problem was solved regarding Mudcat identity theft with the member/guest log-in. Only those who are willing to be members get the supposed "identity protection" which some of us know can be easily wrecked by hackers.

And before anyone goes shouting around about what idiots the people are who choose to remain here as non-members, it might behoove you to keep in mind that both Arlo Guthrie and Frank Hamilton post here as guests.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:25 PM

We (or Iat the veryleast,do not believe that you truly think there is a Mudcat jihad against anyone who posts here without being a Member.

That said, why keep posting the same tired old crap over & over again? Why post here at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:27 PM

Pah! Serves me right for trying to do to many things at once....

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:29 PM

My motive for harping on this, Cookieless Member, is to get the situation changed, so Mudcat will once again become a forum I can support enthusiastically, and enjoy like I did when I first started coming here.

I believe there are two problems that, if resolved well enough (not perfectly--I am a realist), would make this forum the enjoyable place it once was for me. Those two problems can be solved technically by Max for the most part: 1) installing filters, and; 2) putting an end to the member/guest log-in. I don't care how Max chooses to solve the latter problem. I just want to see the member/guest log-in software scrapped, because I think too many people get sucked into the manipulation of the member=good, guest=bad mindset. Which then starts the flaming and trolling.

Then, there is one other thing that would sure be nice to see happen, and that is community policing of one another, to stop the worst abuses here. And no, I don't mean the PM, I mean people getting called out on their way off behavior right here in the forum, publicly, to get them to stop. I've seen community policing work miracles in other forums, really. It can work. Folks just have to believe that policing can be done without scapegoating. And that is another part of my unease here at Mudcat. When the Mudcat Mafia attempted to engage in some community policing regarding the Bruce Olson thing, they ended up scapegoating him, rather than looking at what they themselves were doing wrong. Yes, Bruce may have used some questionable methods to prove his point. But I've done the same here, to try and get people to see and understand the negative dynamic which has taken over the forum, even among otherwise good and wise folk.

We all need to look at the dark underside of the things we love and are involved with from time to time. I think this is one of those times for Mudcat. Instead of pointing fingers at anonymous posters, of which there are really only ever a miniscule number here, I think people should be looking at themselves and one another, and asking what they can do to turn things around for the better.

If that doesn't happen, my fearless predicition is this place will just become a magnet for more and more BS flame warriors, and then another once successful music forum will bite the dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:31 PM

Nope, you miss the point. Arlo and Frank post for an entirely different reason, and it points out the hole in your logic. There are many who may have legitimate reasons for being non-members. As best as I can tell, neither Frank nor Arlo have ever posted in a way designed to attack folks and wreak havoc on the site. You equate the attacks on non-members by members as being an attack on their anonymity. That is a half truth and lacks merit. What they are responding to is hiding behind anonymity in order that they can attack others and wreak havoc. And that is sick, no matter how you look at it.

In reading your posts here, I accept that your concern is real. As I look back and guess as to the posts you have made in the past, what troubles me is your contention that you have the answer as to what the site should be. And you continually bang away on this dead horse. The site is what it is. Your continued harangue just keeps the discord going, and in the long run, it is destructive. What I object to is the manipulation that occurs. I remember the ruckus that erupted when one well known Mudcatter, who was a wonderful contributor of lyrics and lore, stomped his cyber feet and announced that if the forum was going to continue having all this non music discussion he was leaving. While I hated to see him leave, I expressed that if that was his ultimatum, then "Goodbye". I was accused of running him off, when the facts are that I agreed with his assessment that he should leave based on the facts he presented. Do I wish he were back? Sure. In fact, I don't believe he ever really left, just went anon and bitter that he couldn't control all the Catters with his brilliance. I believe that if you really wanted to leave, you would just do so. All this "look at me, I'm leaving, posts and emails needed to prove I'm right" shite is a load of bollocks.

And I believe that while your intentions are good, your logic is flawed the same way.

Mick, who just feels like debating for a while, so save your PM's telling me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:39 PM

...Let me just add, since your troll is so successful, that I wish you would read what I wrote before you answer it. I just spend valuable time explainign that the anonymity thing doesn't bother me at ALL; what bothers me is the use of it to engage in sourceless, geenralized perturbation and negativity DESIGNED to HURT.

You have created for yourself in this thread a recognizable and relatively reasonable identity, even though I have no idea who the hell you are in real time. I am happy to speak to your issues, because you are apparently trying to communicate.

Maybe it comes down to a misunderstanding on the term "Discussion Forum". in my experience, those who think that sniping, carping, and harmful generalization are elements of "Discussion" are either extremely immature, psychotic, or too fearful to communicate rationally.

This is not to say that guerilla communication is never useful. But it is not rightly included in a site dedicated to discussion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:48 PM

Crap, crap, crap....you're STILL doing it arent you, trying to use logical-sounding words & phrases that you believe people here are too stupid to see through!

Maybe youre getting frustrated that nobody has posted to this thread other than to disagree with you, but your stating your wants plainer & plainer with every post you make.

You "want to see the member/guest log-in software scrapped", and have EVERYONE "called out on their way off behavior right here in the forum, publicly".

Well, we are just starting that suggested policy with YOU... arent you pleased that we have taken that little bit of your 'advice'. Not that we will be taking anymore than that, of course... your suggestions are way too transparent in their motives for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:52 PM

Right Amos, I agree that sniping, carping, and harmful generalizations are extremely immature, psychotic, etc.

So why do we tolerate that behavior from the Mudcat Mafia?

And before you respond, think about what it means to be group labelled "mafia" please, as the definition of the word has two elements. One is to be secretive, but at the same time, well known to the community it operates in for it's criminality. Now, what the group of people I'm referring to are not doing anything criminal, they are at times (different levels of frequency for different members) guilty of behaving in anti-social ways, to be sure. Hence, the "mafia" label really does work metaphorically for me.

The so-called "Mudcat clique" or "Mudcat inner circle" or whatever once wishes to call it, is real, and both members and guests who spend any time here can identify the group royalty and their enforcers with a fair amount of ease. Just like a real life mafia group, they aren't equally guilty of criminal behavior. But when they marry into the family because they get some real benefits by doing it, they became just another member of the family, and will then engage in this dysfunctional behavior to protect one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:03 PM

Now, see.............it starts to come out. This really comes down to the Inner Clique. Just because there is a group of us bent on world domination through controlling the Mudcat and sending out musical "kneebreakers" for recalcitrant "wannabe's", you right away go taking it personal. ....ROFLMAO....... Why don't you just admit that you took a position for which a bunch of folks chastised you, or didn't agree, or didn't like, and it pissed you off and now you spend your days sulking and creating realities to justify your position? While that comment was flip on my part, look at it for what is legitimate. I still accept that you believe all this that your are writing, might even find some legitimacy in some of the premises. But with your last post, you demonstrated what it is really all about. Most Mudcatters with good intentions who want to contribute figured this out long ago. And you have demonstrated, once again, that it is true. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, GUEST. The Mudcat is what it is.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Peg
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:06 PM

sounds like a case of sour grapes to me, pure and simple. It must be very painful to have no friends in real life, to such a degree that it causes you to mold paranoid fantasies of rejection and "outsider status" in cyberspace...

If you stop believing there is an inner circle, maybe you will no longer be disgruntled that you aren't part of it...

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:07 PM

Well, GUEST, I had thought 'Guest, Cookie free...etc.' was YOU....same Mudcat Mafia claim.

Nobody denies that there is an Inner Clique...not that I've seen....it would be an abnormal social grouping that DID'NT have something like that.

That you regard such things as sinister & anti-YOU would seem to indicate that you have never been included in one, probably because of a sociopathic personality. Well, I've said all this to you before...I'd guess the only real reason you keep coming back is spite.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM

And don't forget, GUEST, You, too, can be a member of the clique by simply purchasing a Trillium Irish Bouzouki, or a Pre-war Martin, and sending it to me. Email me at [e-mail] for my home address for shipping.

A "suitable for framing" 8 1/2 x 11 certificate of membership will follow. Please include 37 cents for postage.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:19 PM

Hmm...the original post here makes some sense to me, and I don't think I'm falling for anything.

I think I like the mudcat. It can we be whatever we make it.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Amos
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:24 PM

Well, I am only gonna say this once, so I hope you are paying attention.

Every single person who you think of as a member of the Inner Clique is operating solely as an individual.

The reason they seem to be more deeply part of the Mudcat is really very germane to your complaint, and has three elements:

1. They ALWAYS post as who they are and are never afraid to say what they see under theor own handle,w hether it is a "real" handle, like mine, or a synthetic one like Spaw's.

2. They INTEND TO COMMUNICATE, meaning they want understanding, or they want to add to the pleasure of the group, or they want to do something that means their communication gets across, gets undertstood and gets received as soming from them.

3. They communicate a LOT and show through their communications the general intent to HELP.

There's your big secret intiation rite in three simple, easy-to-follow steps that even an idiot like me can learn and follow.

Even an idiot like you , for that matter!! :>) (Sorry -- venting.,..ignore).

Ya wanna "join" the inner clique around here ?-- Just do steps one, two and three above repeatedly, and I guarantee you your membership card will magically materialize right alongside of your cookie.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:30 PM

Oh Good, another pointless thread started by a dingbat who has reality recognition problems and needs to get a life. Are they still sending radio waves thru the walls at you? You need this.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:34 PM

Good point, MichaelAnthony!

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:42 PM

*LMAO* Rolf!

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 02:45 PM

If everyone is operating here as an individual Amos, then why are so many people singing praises of the group? Are you suggesting that a group of individuals don't take on a group dynamic?

Anywhere in life, we operate both as individuals and as members of groups. THAT is the dynamic I'm talking about. Individuals who are members of groups begin to take on some individual personification of the group identity. Here the group identity itself has become an "insider" identity, I believe, because of the member/guest dichotomy being an identifying difference between Mudcat and rec.music.folk or Mudcat and the Folk Alliance mailing list, or Mudcat and the Folk Scare Discussion list.

If some of you could distance yourselves enough from the Mudcat group, and look more objectively at the posts that here day in and day out, you would see how much dialog here is about the group, and about the group members. Now, the fact that this group of people has a strong group identity isn't a problem. Really. What is a problem is *some* of the group members dominating others, and using a negative dynamic to rule the roost along member/guest lines in the sand.

The only saving grace of the forum, IMO, is the fact that there are enough individuals who aren't here to be part of the group at all, who will never get sucked into the group dynamic. Rather, they will use this forum as a place to talk about something they love or are wanting to learn about: music. And they aren't going to get involved in the rest of the group thing, regardless of how intense the pressure is from outsiders or from insiders to join the group.

Now, some of those individuals have become members, some haven't. But the fact that they always manage to stay above the fray is the main strength of this forum, not the comradery of the people who are coming here for community more than music. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:05 PM

I cannot recall a single instance where anyone has made any objection to people posting as GUESTS-with-some-kind-of-a-label. When people complain about people doing that, I tend to assume that they are just manoeuvring and manipulating, and trying to set people against each other.

Maybe I'm wrong and there have been instances of people making that kind of objection, but if so, let's see some examples to prove they exist. It would be easy enough to chase down that kind of thing, with a bit of effort and intelligent use of search engines. If it is there to be chased down.

What people have often objected to, and I am one of them, is where people post without a label, because it is seen as interfering with the process of discussion, and is interpreted as being intended to achieve this.

For example in this thread we have had GUESTcookie free and GUESTcookiless member tearing into each other. Now of course if they could have written exactly the same posts, but with both signed in as GUEST. It wouldn't really have made for clear communication if they had though.

I suppose any moment now we're going to get a post from someone sneering at the fact that people in this thread have responded to their trolling, and going on about shooting fish in a barrel...And then some communication from cookie free indignantly denying that they were the same person as the cookie free who will have written the sneering post, and protesting that they weren't trolling at all.

Why do we rise to the bait? Well, in this case it's because there is at least a possibility that the person throwing it out is actually a real person with a real point of view that might be worth understanding. And if it's just another sniggering game-player, after all, so what.

I think it probably is true that at least some of these interminable backstabbing threads are started and fuelled by people who do have some kind of love for the Mudcat, however destructive the effect of the way they demonstrate it. "Each man kills the thing he loves..."

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:08 PM

Hiya Guest! I'm a new member of Mudcat. I just have one question for you. How many times do you expect fish to bite on the same old bait? It's starting to stink up the place. Don't bother insulting me, because I will not honor this thread with another post. I happen to like the Joe Clones, thank you...
Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Mark Clark
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:11 PM

I started composing this a couple of hours ago and I'm not sure why I'm posting it now but, as Pete Seeger wrote, “...because I love you, I'll give it one more try...”

I'm not bothered by people posting anonymously. If you've been paying attention, you know that I often respond to guests' requests for information in as helpful a way as I can manage. Likewise, anyone posting an interesting technique, song, link or fact—anonymously or not—is, from my point of view, a welcome addition to the forum.

Where identity becomes important is when the content is largely opinion. If, as I walk along the street, someone in a passing car flips me off and yells “You suck, asshole!”, I may not be entirely persuaded by his point of view. If, on the other hand, someone walks up to me, stops to introduce himself in a civil way and says something like “Do you know that many people, myself included, think of you as an asshole?”, I might actually want to know what he is talking about and what, if anything, I may have done to contribute to this generally negative impression of my character.

I don't expect the person in the passing car to stop that kind of behavior, although it would be nice, but neither do I ascribe any credibility to his remark. The person who introduces himself, on the other hand, becomes at some level a known entity; a person I can talk with, work through the issues and verify the veracity of his remark. After all, I may actually be an asshole and if not, he's still entitled to his opinion.

One sort of post we see from time to time is the anonymous guest posing as the author of some editorial piece from another source. It's unclear whether the guest wants to express the same opinion and just believes the well-known author has explained the position well, or whether the guest is really just yelling out the window from a passing car while flipping us off. I believe that a guest with any intellectual integrity would post using his name and either quote the original source or provide a link to the original while letting us know why we might find the editorial interesting. The guest who pretends to be posting in the author's name doesn't hurt anything, but I can't regard his post with any credibility.

People on the Internet often invent imaginary personas for themselves though I'm not entirely sure I understand why. Unless they live or work in a situation where identification would cause them some level of pain, I think the practice is juvenile. Mudcat is the only online place where I carry on conversations with people. I'm not a big communicator; there are many people I've known for years and feel close to, with whom I seldom communicate. Why would I spend valuable time talking with people I don't know and who may not be who they say they are?

The answer, for me, is music. Many people have helped me learn the music I love and I think I owe a debt to share what knowledge and experience I have gained even while trying to increase my own knowledge and ability. If Mudcat didn't provide those opportunities, I wouldn't be reading these threads just to get some opinions from people I don't know. As Clint Eastwood says in one of his “Dirty Harry” films, “Opinions are like assholes... everybody's got one.”

Where I begin to care about opinions here on Mudcat is when the opinion is posted by someone I have, in some sense, come to know. I know who they are because their names are known in addition to their pseudonyms, their pictures may be on file, they may have reputations, possibly recordings, or they may simply have been consistently here as a positive force long enough for me to regard them with some credibility. I don't regard those people as insiders, many of them haven't been using Mudcat as long as I have, they are simply people who have made enough of a personal commitment to be regarded as members of a community.

Relationships—and credibility—take time and effort. One can't expect to just swoop into new group of people, anonymously, and be given the same honor as long-time members of the community. One should, however expect consideration and respect if one first comes in offering those same accommodations.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:14 PM

OK, I'll try again.

I am here to discuss music, and stuff loosely related to music. I don't feel a need to be a group member to participate in a way that is enjoyable for me.

What is preventing my enjoyment of music and music related discussions here is the level of BS, and the incessant flaming, trolling, and discussion of the member/guest thing.

I have no problem being a lone wolf folks, really. I have no interest in becoming an insider, just like I have no interest in getting a cookie so I can be a member. I've been an outsider my whole life, and am quite happy to inhabit my life on the margins, rather than at the center of any community I am functioning in. A lot of us artist types operate this way. And I will admit to being baffled by the fact that at a music site, so many people claiming to be artistically inclined don't understand and appreciate the fact that a lot of us really don't want to "belong" or "join", we just want to read some chat, and maybe contribute maybe not, with others we share some common interests with.

I don't want to attend a barbeque, a party, a gathering, or any other sort of meeting with people here. There are a few folks it would be nice to meet, but I've a full life as it is, and I'm not here because I need company. I just want to go on-line a few hours every week, and get the chance to listen to folks talking shop with others who share my interest and passion for the music.

But it is this dysfunctional group dynamic which, for me, gets in the way of my enjoyment nowadays. Not always, but often enough so that in the last few months, I've become unwilling to keep my mouth shut about it, and I started posting about it. Even though I could count on one hand the number of times I'd posted to Mudcat in the previous years on two hands.

That is it folks. If I leave, you'll never know it, because I won't make any announcements, or stomp out and slam the door behind me. That is part of the beauty of anonymity to me. But you can all rest assured I'm not going to leave and badmouth the forum elsewhere, because it just isn't that big of a deal to me. Really, I just continue to bitch here, just like a lot of other folks do. I find this place to be a major pain in the ass more and more often. But even that isn't like, wrecking the quality of my life or relationships. Maybe some of the rest of you take Mudcat and your Mudcat relationships that seriously, but I don't.

I mean, c'mon, at the end of theday, this place is only an Internet forum, like the others I frequent when I have time. It isn't more special to me than any others, because I haven't fostered any relationships with people here. Just like I haven't fostered any relationships with people in any other on-line forums I frequent. I'm guessing that is true for others besides me too. Sure, we have made acquaintances with some very nice folks. Some of them are even very knowledgeable about the music, and I always enjoy my interactions with them.

But a whole lot of people tend to drop out of forums when this sort of shit hits the fan because it just ain't worth it to put up with the bullshit and the abusive atmosphere. And that, for me, is the point that Mudcat has reached. The bullshit and abusive atmosphere has really begun to wear on me. I've started saying so, instead of remaining silent, and tried to communicate with others here what it is that is bothering me, and what I think might solve the problems.

It doesn't bother me that the most common response to my posts is flames from the Mudcat Mafia. It is what I expect to see happen when I post, because my perceptions are threatening to the status quo they are so set on maintaining here. I expect that too. So there really isn't anything folks here can say through flaming me, name calling, etc to deter me. In case some of you haven't caught on yet, I'm impervious to those flame warrior tactics. But by all means, keep throwing those flaming spears at the messenger, as I know that is exactly what a good number of you responding in this thread get out of Mudcat--the ability to hurl abuse at people you will never have to be held accountable to face to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: RichM
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:16 PM

First answer:We don' need no freakin' monitors! :)

Second answer: it's the internet; if we don't like a comment/topic/philosophy/person, then we don't HAVE to respond; one can choose to ignore it.

Surely, with the wide variety of subjects here, we don't need to feel obligated to respond to some simply because they irritate us.

Last of all, If anyone feels the need to harp, feel free to do so--- but it sounds better if you actually *have* a harp!

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:31 PM

So, 'Cookie free', its the MEMBERS (mostly the Inner Clique) who flame & troll, & anonymous Guests come here for a quiet life???

Is that what you REALLY mean, cos its more or less what you said!

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM

Once again, cookie free, since your last post seems to indicate you didn't read it last time:

I cannot recall a single instance where anyone has made any objection to people posting as GUESTS-with-some-kind-of-a-label. When people complain about people doing that, I tend to assume that they are just manoeuvring and manipulating, and trying to set people against each other.

Maybe I'm wrong and there have been instances of people making that kind of objection, but if so, let's see some examples to prove they exist. It would be easy enough to chase down that kind of thing, with a bit of effort and intelligent use of search engines. If it is there to be chased down.

Mark Clark's post summed this whoel thing up pretty well. No indication that cookie free read that one either.

"Nobody loves me. Everybody hates me. I'm going out in the garden and eat worms..."

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 03:51 PM

Cookieless member, as I've said many times, as have some members (including Joe Offer & Clones), there are many more flaming members than there are anon guests. All you have to do is open a flame thread, and count the member names, and the anon guest posts.

The number of flame posts sent by members wil always far outnumber those by the occassional flaming anon guest. Always.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:03 PM

So, I'm assuming here youre just wrangling with words, so define what you are meaning here by Flaming, & by Trolling.

....& I'd want to see the CONTEXT, please, in which Joe & other Members have said that...

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:40 PM

Actually McGrath, I did read Mark's post. I just don't think his analogies fit. First, too many people's behavior on-line is too different from their off-line behavior for the analogies he used in the first part of his post, to ring true. There are so many people who hurl abuse and insults at other posters on-line. It is my perception that Mudcat is becoming a magnet for people who use their internet access in just that way--to vent at people they will never have to account to.

As to the parts of Mark's post about relationships, I hope I clarified my position on that in my above post. I'm really not here to develop relationships, and I've said in the past I prefer to maintain distance on-line.

Finally, as to credibility, what Mark says is true. One can only gain credibility on-line when one's contributions/accomplishments can verified in some way, either through the reputation attached to a name, or through personal experience. The thing is, I'm not interested in gaining personal credibility either.

I'm not interested in developing personal relationships or credibility on-line. I'm just a curious person, who enjoys lurking and posting occassionally on-line. I have relationships I'm quite content with in the real world, along with credibility, and a personal reputation. In my view, it is too damn much work to create all that on-line, largely because of the amount of time and effort it takes to do it in real life. I'm much more into my real life than my cyber life anyway.

I much prefer the idea of Mudcat as a cafe, rather than a community. My coming here is done for my own personal enjoyment. Coming here, for me, is the cyber equivalent of sitting at a sidewalk cafe, where I enjoy watching and listening to those around me. I'm not going to walk over and introduce myself to the other folks at nearby tables, but then again, I'm also not going to holler abuse across the street at people either. And when the traffic is too much, or the people are too much to bear, I leave. I don't demand that people stop it, or act this way, or whatever. However, if there seems to be a change in clientele, and I perceive the new clientele negatively because of their obnoxious behavior, I may well complain about them spoiling my enjoyment of the place. That's all I'm doing here.

I pay the same amount to use this site as the members do, so I figure I've just as much right to bitch about the lousy clientele as they do. And at least I've tried to make a few useful suggestions while doing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:40 PM

Amos, I will add another quality-- ENGAGEMENT. Some of us are engaged, not detached.

Now as to the poiint raised above-- defining what is preventing your enjoyment. Life don't work like that.

When you say someone else is responsible for what you can and cannot enjoy, you are giving all the power away. I don't want it, I don't agree that I have it, and I don't intend to take responsibility for power anyone ascribes to me that properly belongs to themselves!

Be responsbile for yourself and you will find that enjoyment follows effortlessly. It is a lot simpler than assiging it to others, and then trying to get them to exercise it the way you think they should. If everyone went around trying to get everyone else to act the way they want them to, why then I guess it would be someone like me, next, getting you to act like I want you to act.

In the alcoholic model this is called *stinkin' thinkin'* and *the blame game.* Every time you blame someone else you have given them the power and failed to exercise your own AND the responsibility that goes with it. The problem here is not the name, or namelessness, it's the stinkin' thinkin'.

Low maintenance living is much more rewarding. Live YOUR life, is what it boils down to, and note that others are doing the same.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM

I note that cookie free ignored my point - which was an invitation to find any examples of the behaviour he was objecting to (ie people complaining because some people quite reasonably choose to post as GUEST-with-a-(temporary as you like)-label rather than members. Or rather, don't waste time looking for it, but accept that there is in fact no antagonism towards people who choose to do without cookies. And nor should there be.

When I go to a cafe or a pub I too often like to sit in a corner, and don't feel obliged to introduce myself to other people. If I join in a conversation I very likely will not feel it necessary to introduce myself, and would feel it intrusive if people expected me to.

However, people can see me, they know that I am the same man who made a contribution to the conversation five minutes ago. Or last week. I'm not shouting out comments when they aren't looking, so that they won't know it's me. And there are people like that, in real-life cafés and very much on the net. And they really do cause damage.

Remember that film Duel? One of the most frightening bits in it is when he goes into the cafe and realises that one of the people sitting there is the maniac who has been driving the lorry, and he hasn't the faintest idea which one. There is a certain type of anonymity which is very threatening, and I think that is why excessive heat can be generated about such issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 08:58 PM

Oh good god McGrath. Now you are saying anonymous guest posting in Mudcat is equatable with being sociopathic maniacs?

Sure, that analogy works. Makes perfect sense to those living in the Mudcat looney bin.

This thread has gone down the most predictable of paths, of course. But I still am glad to see some of the members choosing to break from the group, and speak some sense for a change. Not many of you, but then, it only takes one or two to crack the facade. Again, good on ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:05 PM

YES, Guest.....no matter how much you & the other anonymous trolls trot out your tissue-thin bullshit, it still comes down to the fact that trolling is socially deviant, dysfunctional behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:21 PM

Actually I think there is a great deal in common between some things that go on on the internet and other types of sociopathic behaviour. Flaming, trolling, stalking, internet viruses, false fire alarms, bomb hoaxes...and the spectrum goes a lot further of course.

And no, those things aren't the same as each other - but there is a continuity, an element of disregard for other people and a kind of casual enjoyment of hurting others.

It's that which lies behind the genuine worry a lot of people have even when are come up against even the relatively mild end behaviour, which is really malicious teasing rather than anything more serious. It also underlies the fact that many people are genuinely frightened of risking their anonymity, not because they want to be free to hurt other people, but they are frightened of being in some way put at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:02 AM

You know something, Cookie Free, you are making less and less sense with your explanations. As I read your last one, one thought keeps leaping out at me. Why do you stay? You need to answer that for yourself. You are not going to change this place, no one has. You make statements as if you represent a significant view to a number of people, but there is no evidence to support that claim, and much evidence of others who like this place just fine except for your weak whiny shite. Consider the basic conflict in your arguments. On one hand you do your best to convince us that you are a loner, that you don't need this place, and that all you really want it for is to slip in for a few hours of music info and then out again. You use flowery words and wear a mask of calm reason. BUT, no matter how much you try to convince folks of this, you then spend all damn day (in fact, months) trying to convince us you don't need any of us. Do you get the dichotomy? There are plenty of lists out there where you can just get a little chat, plenty of music info, etc. But instead, while proclaiming how you don't need us for anything, you spend months causing shit, and spending a lot of energy on stupid ass arguments like this. It is my opinion that you have significant problems. Admit it Cookie Free, you need the Mudcat, and you need the dialogue and attention, even if it is negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:43 AM

My name is Bill...last name Day, hence the 'D'...you can see my silly picture in the album, you can email me, call me on the phone, and, with a little research, drive right to my front door.

I have some strong opinions on some aspects of music, politics, religion, environment...etc...and sometimes I am silly or foolish. But you always know who it is taking a stand of being foolish...it is Bill D...and I get along better with those who do and feel the same. If I had a cute 'screen name', like "Frumpywillow", it might be harder to identify 'exactly' who I am, but you could always follow my ramblings.

You anonymous 'guests' who complain and point fingers at 'inner cliques' and certain members they disagree with, at least have the privilege of IDENTIFYING those you want to bait and harass. It sure would be fascinating if everyone adopted your system....thousands of anonymous posts from 'guest' babbling TO 'guest' about 'guest'....

VERY seldom does a 'guest' ever claim to have a genuine, rational reason for not ONLY having no cookie, but not even adopting a standard 'guest' name, like some regulars have done.....the usual reason is "I don't have to, and it's YOUR problem to sort out the medium from the message"...crap!

If YOU had to carry on discussions about your behavior and attitudes with someone who only communicated by tacking unsigned notes to your front door, you'd see the point soon enough!

Get this through your heads..most human beings want to associate with other **people**, not with disembodied sentences!

I am a human being..and I have MET many of these others here and 'interacted' with many others AS human beings, though not in person....some I like, some I don't...but we choose based on something 'real'.

I'm sorry, but unless I can track the opinions of someone thru time and by ***SOME*** sort of identity, I feel I am arguing with flitting will-o-the-wisps. I don't even know how many there are.....

It is tedious, it is reprehensible, it is heinous, it is mean-spirited...and I am too tired to think of more invective right now...

..yeah, I am also aware I am wasting my time trying to make sense to several folks who have adopted this technique...you are locked into this stupidity, and all I am gonna get is the privilege of SEEING my post on the record as being fed up with it!

......enough.............................

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:51 AM

Bill..............you disembodied bunch of sentences that need a haircut, you.................I don't want you doing this to yourself.............It is not good for a fella of your years to hold it in....................speak out, man..............say what is on your mind...........or you will burst a blood vessel

Mick, the other disembodied bunch of sentences that needs a haircut

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,paybacks
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 03:52 AM

Perhaps, guest, maybe its your facade breaking. Throw enough shit at the wall, maybe some will stick, eh?
Constantly claim that their is an 'inner clique' and maybe one person will believe you. But what happens, is that more people realize you for the little troll you are, with your own agenda, (like taking DT to your own site, where you can run it like a little Hitler) spreading lies so that you get your way.
And you constantly keep whining and bitching and trolling and flaming when you don't get your way. WWWWAAAAAAHHHHH!



What an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 04:02 AM

It seems odd, Cookie-Free that, though you seem to feel that the music discussions are the important thing about mudcat, that you say that before you went off on this tirade, you could count the number of times that you posted on two hands--hmmm==

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,McGrath at Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 07:32 AM

I'm a bit puzzled how we suddenly get clairvoyant people like GUEST paybacks who indicate that they can pin down the identity of cookie free.

In fact I can't help wondering whether paybacks is actually j the same guy flaiming himself to get a bit more attention in another twist on the old game.

I thought of signing this post in the persona of one of our friends, since my cookie has just crumbled, and emonstrating how to put anoither twist in the plot. But I can't gte out of the habit of signing in as myself.

Once we start assuming that all the faceless nuisances we run into in this life are really all the same person, or in league with the same person in some kind of malevolent conspiracy, we are heading straight for Paranoia City.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM

Maybe if they had some cookies they'd feel better?

I just found a killer recipe for chocolate chip cookies, from a "housewife's recipe" transcribed in 1928. Fabulous cookies. My friends and I devoured them after a night out drinking beer.

I think eating such cookies might make the cookieless dorks who keep doing this stuff chill out and relax a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookie free
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM

Big Mick, McGrath, et al

It isn't a question of stay vs leave. This is a website I come to read the posts that interest me, and then it is on to the next folk forum. I don't feel the need to stay or leave, in the sense that many members here seem to feel. As I said, I find the cafe analogy works for me, though I recognize the community analogy works for others. If people could get a grip on that difference, it would be much easier for them to see that all anon guests aren't malevolent, and that everyone need not be a joiner. All malevolent guests aren't anonymous guests, and vice versa. McGrath's suggestion that people stop the paranoid behavior of seeing every malevolent guest post as coming from the same person is well advised.

As to my posting habits, what I meant was I've posted more in the past six months than in all my years of mostly lurking at Mudcat combined, and it has been mostly in regard to the degradation of the forum in the past year. I think the difference is much more striking to those of us who aren't here on a daily or even weekly basis. I come and go a lot to the on-line forums anyway. I can go months without looking in. Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 11:20 AM

But, cookie free, you still haven't come up with any instances of people being nasty to GUESTS-with-labels, as such (as against people being nasty to a particular person, which is a different thing). It may happen, but I can't remember seeing it. But I can remember loads of previous cases where that accusation has been made of Mudcatters.

Maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe it's a fiction. Either way it would be good to see it nailed once and for all. (Well, it wouldn't be once and for all, but if we can nail it in this thread, next time it comes up someone can post a link to here.)

Anyway, lets have that cookie recipe, Peg. That way something really useful can come out of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 11:43 AM

McGrath, 'GUEST, Paybacks' has posted before.

That doesnt invalidate your theory, of course...you may still be right, but if its the same guy who posted as Paybacks a while ago, I remember the tone of his posts then.

He's(?) just another sick & tired Member like me, I'm pretty sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Peg
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM

From the Fannie Farmer Cookbook (which claims these famous cookies--if not this recipe--were created by a Massachusetts housewife in 1929):

Chocolate Chip Cookies

1/4 pound (115 g) (1 stick) butter
1/2 cup dark brown sugar
1/2 cup white sugar
1 egg
3/4 teaspoon vanilla
1 1/8 cups flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
1/2 cup chopped nuts (optional; I did not use them)
1 cup semi-sweet chocolate chips

Preheat oven to 375 (190 C). Grease cookie sheets. Cream the butter, then gradually add the two sugars and beat until light and smooth. Beat in the egg and vanilla. Mix the flour, salt and soda together and add to first mixture, blending well. Stir in nuts and chips. Drop by teaspoonfuls one inch apart onto cookie sheets and bake for 8-10 minutes until lightly browned.

I found these to be best after they had cooled for several hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:28 PM

Lovely stuff, Peg. Here's the song to go with it. (anyone feel like making some for Stony Stratford?)

Whatever, that paybacks post there struck me as trolling rather than as anyone genuinely protective of the Mudcat. (As for the suggestion that there's anything remotely damaging about someone having a copy of the DT on their website!! That kind of thing is the reverse of damaging, it's a very useful resource for times when the cat is offline for one reason or other. And unless I'm very much mistaken, Dick Greenhaus has indicated that he sees it that way too.)

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:44 PM

Well, I guess it was certainly a 'flame' post yeah......I I'm not convinced that he is talking to the right Guest here anyhow...so its not really helping to clar away the smoke.

Personally, I suspect we've got a Guest who's hintingthat they are Jon Freeman, & posting in his same critical, nit-pick style.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST,Cookieless Member
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM

I have just found out that all of those recent attacks on Lepus Rex were perpetrated by Lepus Rex himself. Another asshole just trying to rally the Mudcat army around himself. How pathetic, but how typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 02:13 PM

Sorry, you troll, but you need to be a little more observant....there is a space in MY name before 'Cookieless'

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 02:17 PM

It ain't Jon Freeman.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 10:15 PM

It seems to me that Cookie Free surfs in, and looks around for what he/she can use, takes it, and surfs on--this is OK, and you are welcome to it, those of us who post this stuff do it because we want to help--however, when you come back and bitch because we are not giving you enough of what you want, and criticize people for posting things other than you want, you seem like the freeloader who complains about the food--the thing that particularly galls is that you seem to be proud of the fact that you choose to take from the forum, only, and not give back anything--

The real Mudcat Mafia is the group of people who have put together the DT, plus the people who keep Mudcat online, plus all the people who respond to questions about playing, listening to, collecting, and just appreciating music with answers--if you've done it, you belong--

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:37 AM

Actually MTed, I give at least as much as I take here, but I still don't "belong" because I choose not to take on an on-line identity to participate the way the members and regular guests do. My choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM

And you are who?

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Lanfranc
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, I thought this was a dyslexic reference to Epiphone guitars!

I'll go now.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 03:23 PM

As "member", I wasn't ever flamed, but 99% of my posts were ignored, so I never felt like an accepted "catter." For me, that was like being insulted, and it was one negative aspect of the Mudcat. As a Guest, my posts don't get any greater degree of acknowlegement, so now I just figure maybe I'm not a very interesting person. We can't all have scintillating personalities, I guess. At least I have plenty flesh-and-blood friends.

As for you, the Inner Clique, or Mudcat Mafia, or however you want to be referred to, some of you do have your nose in the air, and you can be a bit harsh. O.K., so you're an accomplished musician, an author, or whatever your profession or forte. You don't have the God-given right to belittle someone if they don't appear to be as clever as you are. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that people shouldn't disagree with each other. And sometimes criticism is a healthy thing. But, Hell! Lighten up a little.

By the same token, life isn't always pleasant. I've read posts pointing out that the Mudcat is a reflection of reality. If that's the case, then I guess there's bound to be assholes among the good folks here at the Mudcat. (Oh, I can just imagine the comebacks that line is going to provoke.) I only wish everybody who posts to this forum could at least try to be pleasant. Who was it that said, "I may not agree with a thing you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it."? (You pedants - if my punctuation isn't correct, I apologize.)

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 05:06 PM

So are you Cookie Free, or someone else?

If you have been routinely ignored, and feel insulted by it, you really are a member! The next worst thing (or maybe even a worse thing) is to have some one thank another person for what you posted--the truth is, in any given thread, most of the posts don't really get acknowledged, unless the person who started the thread is very conscientious--and after a thread gets to be a certain length, most people don't even read all of what is there--

If you need to be acknowledged, do what Spaw does, which is to post as much as humanly possible--that way, even if three quarters of what you say is ignored, you still will have a very busy day--

The next group of posters are people who get wound-up reading the thread, and posting, whether it gets a response or not, vents--

Then there is another group. who only post because they like to see their own words in print--

You've covered the rest--

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 05:06 PM

So are you Cookie Free, or someone else?

If you have been routinely ignored, and feel insulted by it, you really are a member! The next worst thing (or maybe even a worse thing) is to have some one thank another person for what you posted--the truth is, in any given thread, most of the posts don't really get acknowledged, unless the person who started the thread is very conscientious--and after a thread gets to be a certain length, most people don't even read all of what is there--

If you need to be acknowledged, do what Spaw does, which is to post as much as humanly possible--that way, even if three quarters of what you say is ignored, you still will have a very busy day--

The next group of posters are people who get wound-up reading the thread, and posting, whether it gets a response or not, vents--

Then there is another group. who only post because they like to see their own words in print--

You've covered the rest--

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:31 PM

Well, I've never counted it all up, and I doubt if whoever it was who said that 99 per cent of their posts were "ignored" has counted them either. I take it the 99% isn't a statistic, it's a rhetorical flourish meaning a large majority.

And in that case, that goes for the rest of us too - most of the time when you post you don't expect or get any kind of direct response. Maybe some point you raise might be developed by someone else, but there's not going to be a direct attribution most of the time. Why should there be? There isn't in a crowded conversation.

I suppose that if you say something that annoys somebody they are more likely to specifically mention you, and that goes a long way to explain the practice of trolling. (I distinguish between saying something you believe to be true and relevant, in spite of the likelihood that it will annoy someone, and saying something that you don't particularly believe is true or relevant, for the sake of annoying someone.

Any in any case, how can anyone tell whether they are being ignored or not? Most of the people around here at any time are quite likely reading without posting (I don't like the term lurking much). There might have been lots of people avidly reading thingy's posts and looking forward eagerly to them. Nobody can look forward eagerly to reading a post by GUEST(non-label) because there's no reason to think it's the same one next time you see it at the head of a post.

Which is a pity because there appears to be at least one GUEST(non label) who deserves not to be confused with some of the other extremely nasty little creatures who use the same sobriquet. Deserves not to be, but evidently wishes to be, which I find puzzling. A bit like going around in a white sheet because you like privacy, in a place where there is a Klan presence. Which would be a sure way of ensuring confusion and unpleasantness all round.

Subject: RE: BS: Recent Member Epiphanies
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 09:07 PM

I think I see the problem, and let us see if we can correct it. GUEST, I don't give a shit who likes it or not, let me try to correct a couple of errors that I may have made that made you feel this way.

First off, if I never welcomed you, let me take this opportunity to do so. I hope you will be a contributing member.

Second, if I have been offensive and it was unwarranted, please accept my apology. My world is a bit stressful, and sometimes I pop off without realizing that I may have hurt feelings. Being a pretty articulate fella, that can cut. It usually isn't personal, because other than here, I don't really know you. Please note that I said "unwarranted". When you or anyone is playing head games on good folks, I will come at you if I can. And vigorous debate is not the same as attacking. But I sincerely apologize, if I insulted you and it contributed to your beginning the silliness out of defense.

I would also like to tell you that I am sorry that your posts weren't acknowledged. I wish I had a solution to this, but the Mudcat has gotten so big that it is difficult to read everything, let alone respond. And given my schedule all the time, and particularly right now, ............. well, it is just damn difficult. But you have done me a service here, and I am greatful. I will do my best to pay attention to the posts, and where possible acknowledge and encourage folks. So, even though I don't like your tactics, nor do I agree with your suppositions in this thread, you have contributed to this place today. And you have made me more aware.

In case you are waiting for the other shoe to drop, you can stop. I am offering these observations sincerely. It is my hope that maybe we, you and I, can take a step here. If we can demonstrate that someone has listened, then maybe you can re-activate your cookie and just come on back. No one will be the wiser. You have made me more aware, and I hope I can return the favor.

Mick