Buying your way in.

Subject: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM

I"m a country music fan, but country music has to be the biggest bullshit producer in all of the music industry. It's saying is, if you have the money, we've got the time. and that's wrong, and just plain bullshit.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:18 PM

the same goes for rock music and basically any other form of music, too.....

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:20 PM

Rock music is a little different, if you don't have it, then you don't make it.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Amergin
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:34 PM

so Brittany Spears must be very talented then.....

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Anahootz
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:35 PM

'fraid he's got ya there, 53

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:37 PM

I don't think so, so maybe you're right, but it just seems that it pops up more in country music, or maybe I should say, is that I keep a closer tab on country since we were screwed over pretty good since we didn't have any money to talk with. Sucks huh?

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:45 PM

Tell us more Bob, how did you get screwed over, did somebody steal your songs, or did you make a record and never get royalties, or what?

Murray

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:50 PM

Ever heard of Jessica Andrews or Leann Rhimes? from the playpen to the stage, never did pay any dues what so ever, and no we didn't have our music stolen, we just never did have any money to buy up a record deal, I think we were good enough, I know we were good enough, but that doesn't count, it's all about money.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:59 PM

If you were "market-able" you WOULD have a "market."

No one will "make it happen" for you.

Out of 1,500 talented, dedicated, original "wanna-be"s ...... what makes "53" the "cream" that should rise to the top.?

If "YOU" can make "da man" a buck.....believe it....YOU WILL get exposure and play-time!!!

Meantime...... either market more, practice more, find a new edge...... or live in a world of bitter, unfulfilled fantasy, crying in your beer.... about the never tasted yolk.....telling a tale of woe....to those you do not know.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:00 AM

But Bob, plenty of poor people have made it big in Country music. Hank Williams didn't start off with a zillion bucks, did he?

Murray

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:12 AM

Bob does have a point, there are a hell of a lot of "singers" making a living from country music who have very little musical talent.

Don't give up, however, even the Beatles were turned down by Decca before they were signed up by Parlophone.

Murray

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:18 AM

I'll say it again but....It's been said before

All you have to know ....is ONE, FIVE, FOUR!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM

Gargoyle is only half right I think. If its true that only the talented cream make it to the top. How come there are no ugly women currently moving up the pole in country music. How come there are no fat homely men doing the same. (Lyle Lovett and Garth Brooks maybe the exceptions to the rule.)

I'll grant that there a lot of pretty people out there who happen to be talented. But isn't it odd that Shelby Lynn couldn't go anywhere really until she coiffed up and showed a little hip and shoulder. The fact that she is another Patsy Cline (IMHO) didn't help at all until she got beautified.

Trisha Yearwood has been in the Spa and suddenly became more marketable, What happened to Wynnona Judd.

Nashville music, by the way, is more package than pickage anymore. It stopped being country music about ten years ago. If you want country music don't look in Nashville, it all packed it in an moved back to the farm.

And if you want Western music don't go to Branson, look for Michael Martin Murphy, The Sons of the San Jaquin, Don Edwards, Rattle Snake Annie, and a bunch of others who are on the edge of obscurity.

Don

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Clifton53
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:45 AM

Been crying about this for years. Slicker than snot and colder than a well-diggers ass, that's 'Country' to me nowadays. Hank would be elsewhere these days.

Clifton

Hang in there bob, 'songs' last forever!

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:29 AM

And look at Kylie Minogue - should have her own chapter in the marketing text books, but who would mention her when discussing music?

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Grab
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM

Britney is rock?! Since when?

Pop music has always been manufactured and marketed - there has never, ever, been a pop band without a manager telling them what to do/say and how to market their stuff. Including the Beatles. All that's happened is that pop has spread out to pop-country, pop-rock, pop-rap, etc...

If ppl will buy it, then someone will sell it. If you've bought a CD by any of the ppl mentioned in this thread, then you're part of the problem.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 10:58 AM

I think a great many country performers who had marketable talent and started out young (Tanya Tucker, Marty Stuart, leanne Rhymes, Mark O'Connor etc.) would STRONGLY disagree that they didn't pay a LOT of dues. Record Companies are on the lookout for people and bands who have EVERYTHING in place....Looks..talent..willingness to tour endlessly...and most important..attitude. But always remember, whether it's Country, Rock, Folk, Pop, Gospel, whatever...if a company is willing to invest BIG BUCKS in an act, then they are first selling APPEARANCE and SEX APPEAL. Yup, even with Gospel acts. That's business.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:18 AM

Clifton,

As the late Waylon said, "I don't think Hank done it that way".

I think true talent will rise to the top, altbough the top may not be the two year Gazillion dollar thing like the Boy Bands and the Britneys. Instead it will be appreciate by those who love music, not laser light shows and dance numbers. Willie, Dylan, CSN&Y and many others are still packing houses wherever they go. Now I'm a raging heterosexual so I can't be sure, but I doubt that these guys are doing it on Sex appeal.

I think that there are two definite markets. People who want entertainment and people who want to hear music. I think that the true music lovers are much more loyal and don't care about "the package". Just look at how the recent passings of Dave Van Ronk & Waylon Jennings have affected people around here.

Having said that, I wish my seats were nearer to the stage when I saw Emmylou last week. I do think she is a beutiful woman, but I heard her and fell in love with her voice before I ever saw her.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:24 AM

Anyone ever hear Waylon give thanks to Tommy Hunter for Tommy's help at the beginning of his career ? Just curious.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:25 AM

Gargoyle, you just don't get it, i'm not complaing about our band, i'm talking about talent in general, it does take more than 1 3 5 as you said, if you know anything about music, you'll know it takes time and lots of hard work, called paying your dues, do some research, on the biggis and you'll know what i'm talking about.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM

Bob, if you are trying to sell country songs with a 1, 3, 5 progression, you are doomed to fail.

Murray

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:34 AM

Ahhhh....you are a sorry sot 53

There is no point reasoning with a self absorbed drunk.

It is better to hear "Merry Farmer" performed flawlessly, than a Stravinsky piece compounded with errors. The Olympic skaters proved this

I "got it" but apparently you did not....

Meantime...... either market more, practice more, find a new edge...... or live in a world of bitter, unfulfilled fantasy, crying in your beer.... about the never tasted yolk.....telling a tale of woe....to those you do not know. Sincrely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 01:24 AM

My Daddy loved country music, and one of the songs he used to sing was "If'n yew got the money, honey, I got the time! If'n yew ain't got no money, honey, I ain't got no time . . ."

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: C-flat
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:06 AM

The music industry stopped being about talent a long time ago. Sure, there are some extremely talented people in the business,but it is just that,a business! Whether you're talking country,pop,rock,rap,those at the top have had a career plan and proper management to get there.You don't just go from local pub gig to national exposure without some serious background work from people who know what they're doing and who to call.It all takes money,so if you've less talent than the next guy but a lot more loot you've got the upper hand.I'm not trying to say that us poor folk have been cheated, because in reality,very few of us would have real talent.I've been gigging for 30 years and would consider myself reasonably accomplished but I've stood next to kids with scary ability and most of them are never going to get more than a local reputation unless someone dives in with a serious lump of cash.I stopped trying to make a living out of music some time ago and since then I,m enjoying gigging in a way I had forgotten!

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:26 AM

Everybody pays their dues. Some sooner, some later. No exceptions.

(Anybody know where I can apply for a rebate?)

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM

The big music companies are all about money & marketing. And let's face it, they are in business to make money and have found formulas that work. That's why there are now so many smaller independant companies doing fairly well. People who love music tend to have CD's that are put out by the likes of Allgator, Blind Pig, Stony Plain, Borealis etc.

If you build it, they will come. You may never get as rich as Britney, The Bathroom Boys, N Stync etc. but you should be able to sell some CD's play some gigs and festivals and most importantly, share you music with others.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:46 AM

Woody Allen says that "Life is a crapshoot". Well, there is that variable in the country music scene, fir sure. Just think of the of the incredible number of really talented musicans who haven't "made it". But there is the business side of country music that limits the number of folks that can occupy the top rung and the industry isn't likely to promote someone just because of talent. One also has to come in with a different sound so that no one gets knocked off the top rung. But as for this ol hillbilly, I'd rather enjoy playing music on the bottom rung than find it to be a job on the top rung.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM

Murray you're right, plenty of poor people make it in the music business, and the only way they do is working their way up the ladder of sucess.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:55 AM

Grab, I made a mistake, I Don't know what type you would label Britney Spears.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:58 AM

Murray, you're right I meant 1 4 5, since I don't use the number system, since I"m not a Nashville pickerI learn the chords to each key.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:02 PM

Guest, Gargoyle, Have we ever met? I don't think so cause if we had met I think that I would of remembered a dumb ass like you, who speaks out of his ass, so from now on get the facts before you speak.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:04 PM

C flat, your post was so true, and i thank you.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM

Thanks Jeremiah.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul, sans cookies
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:06 PM

I guess it depends on your definition of "making it". If being a household name kind of fame is your goal, then yeah, you need money (or you need to sleep with the right people).

If earning a living at your craft is making it, then Seamus Kennedy has made it, and I'd hazard a guess to say he paid no one for the honor (nor did he sleep his way there).

If making music, and doing it well, and having some recognition in a very small pond is your definition of making it, then there are a hundred names I could spill out for you.

All depends on your primary goals.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM

I hope that I've answered all the questions and the goof ups about my post, I guess it was just the wrong post to enter into mudcat, maybe VH-1 would of been better.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: allanwill
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:33 PM

I say this without any real knowledge but it seems to me it's the glitzy glamour stuff originating out of Nashville that puts me right off country music. However, the "alternate" country music scene (I think thats the term) is great and, to me, is almost like a link to folk music.

Here in Australia we have some great country artists, the ladies, especially, such as Kasey Chambers, Beccy Cole, Jane Saunders, Shanley Dell, et al.

Allan

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 01:20 PM

The whole country music scene has changed since Hank Williams was out and about. There is an awfully lot of luck involved as well as talent.

A couple (vocalist, guitar, and his wife, bass player) played a steady gig at my local pub for about five years. Tom has a great voice, and is a very talented song-writer. His wife (Ex now) backed him well on bass and also sang well. I have been friends with Eddy Arnold's manager for over thirty years, and one night when he was in town, I asked him out to the Pub to hear them. He thought they had a lot of talent, but counseled them that they would never make it playing at a Pub in Phoenix, Arizona, if they wanted to make the "Big Time." They would have to go to Nashville, and he offered to open some doors for them. They chose not to go though. Even with someone well connected to open doors, it is very risky to go to Nashville and to try to make it big.

Garg is a long-time member here, 53, and though he rarely holds anything back, he does, I think, have a point. If the talent is there; if you have a unique vocal quality (when someone hears you on the radio they immediatily know it is you), and if you are exposed to people who believe they can make money by helping you, and you are in the right place at the right time, and appeal to the ladies, you can be a star.

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:24 PM

Doug, I wasn't complaing , I was just stating a fact, he was the one that took the ball and started the name calling and other things, I just had to rebute his statement, and if ihe's been around here for a long while that explains the type of posts that he makes. sorry.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:26 PM

53, what makes you unique, so you stand out from everyone else who's trying to make it? If you don't have a good answer for that, then there's your answer.

Of course, standing out from the rest is no guarantee. You need:

1. An opportunity (which is largely a matter of happenstance, i.e., being in the right place at the right time);
2. To be ready when and if that opportunity comes along; and
3. A cute belly-button.

Dick Weissman, The Music Business: Career Opportunities and Self-Defense, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York 1979

Kenny Rogers and Len Epand, Making It with Music, Harper & Row, New York 1978

Some of the specific info may be a bit dated, but the general principles are still valid.

Not that I'm any kind of expert. I didn't "make it big," whatever that means, but I did make a marginal living from music for quite a while, I sang only what I wanted to sing despite a lot of pressure from some quarters to do otherwise (if someone comes along who wants to be your agent, take what he can give you, but watch him like a hawk!), and I went a lot of places, met a lot of people, and I had one helluva lot of fun. I consider myself a success. Sometimes "making it big" turns out to be not that great.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:29 PM

Don, I'm not trying to make it, I was just merely stating facts about the music industry.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 03:03 PM

Okay, point taken. From what I've seen on the tube, I tend to think that a cute belly-button is about all that's needed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 03:50 PM

ORIGINAL POST: "I'm a country music fan, but country music has to be the biggest bullshit producer in all of the music industry. It's saying is, if you have the money, we've got the time. and that's wrong, and just plain bullshit."

Okay......Where isn't this true? The business world? Nope. Sports? Nope.

If you have a talent at whatever and are willing to bust your balls repeatedly, eventually you will put together enough of a "package" to become saleable to the backers or employers or whatever. Now you can have NO talent for whatever it is and all the money in the world or some sort of "package" and you will have great success.....for awhile. Then you'll fade like yesterday's rose. You can buy your way to the top, but you won't stay there and sometimes all the hard work and passion/desire will never get you to the top, but to those in the know, you will have made it. Now it may not be "fair" but it is certainly life. As old street racers used to say, Money talks; Bullshit walks. Eventually the money will not be enough, but it's often enough for awhile. 'Tis the way of the world.

If you make the decision to do it your way, then enjoy the satisfaction in doing what you believe in and what you love......expect nothing else, but don't begrudge those who have decided on a different course.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:08 PM

I didn't intend to sound harsh, Bob, and no apology is necessary. I think Garg is a good guy, and he does know a helluva lot about music. He just didn't listen to his momma when she said, Garg, be nice. He can be though.

I really don't know how to classify the kind of music coming out of Nashville these days. It certainly has changed from what I consider to be country music. They produce the kind of music that people buy though. And Spaw is right. It's just a business, and a big one. Many young (emphasis on the young) performers go to Nashville, make a hit record, and you never hear from them again. Those that make it, and stay on or close to the top are pretty rare, I think.

Sorry if this is creep, but it illustrates, I think, the mind-set of the powers that be in Nashville. A few years ago Former Stars of the Grand Ole Opry appeared at the State Fair here in Arizona. All or most all of the big names were in the troup: Porter Wagoner, George Hamilton IV, Kitty Wells, Little Jimmy Dickens, etc. You give me a name and he/she was probably here. I thought it was a terrible marketing mistake to bill them as "Former." But in Nashville probably some of those folks who made and sometimes lost millions, are literally hanging on. They rarely get airtime on radio anyplace, anytime.

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:39 PM

Doug, very well said. Spaw, I really don't understand what you're trying to say, so please put it where a moron like me can understand what you're trying to say.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:38 PM

Did anyone watch CMT's Grand Ole Opry tonite? Those boys up on that stage have really paid there dues, just check the history on them and you'll see what dues are made for.

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:45 PM

Number 53, I sense your frustration.
Allow me help you structure your argument in the style of Freshmen English 01A

I.
Country Music has to be the biggest bullshit producer
.....A. Bullshit Example #1
.....B. Bullshit Example #2
.....C. Bullshit Example #3

II. If you have the money, we have the time
.....A. Money Example # 1
.....B. Money Example # 2
.....C. Money Example # 3

You are using a "truncated syllogism" which can be a powerful persuasive tool. However, you have left yourself open for serious flaws since you did not define your area.

the biggest bullshit producer in all of the music industry
.....A. Example # 1 of other BS in the music industry
.....B. Example # 2 of other BS in the music industry
.....C. Comparison of WHY Country Music is greater than the two examples

we've got the time
.....A. "TIME" for what?
.....B. "WE" a blanket pronoun - be specific - give names

that's wrong

.....A. morally? (example)
.....B. ethically (example)
.....C. religously (example)
.....D. economically (example)

Now, little 53, fill in the details, post them within YOUR thread for review by a committee of your superiors.

And Don't START Any New Threads Until The Assignmnet is Through!

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DonMeixner
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM

Hi Don,

I like looking at a cute belly button as much as the next guy. But,... if Faith Hill were to come to town on the same night as Nanci Griffith or Mary Chapin Carpenter I'd be hard pressed to choose between Nanci or Mary. And if they weren't in town and Faith was I'd probably stay home and rent a film or get in some banjo practice.

This is a sizzle or steak arguement. All too rarely does the talent equal the packaging in Nashville music or modern Pop. Robin and Linda Williams have been on the verge of being overnight successes for 30 years. Beautiful Harmonies, incredible writing, excellent instrumentation, paid ahead on their dues. But the Nashville Machine doesn't seem to discover talent thats in their fifties. Robin and Linda are at the age in their performance lives where most people get in Halls of Fame.

So it can't be the talent, skill, and the something special that has held them back. (If they are held back, Maybe they are right where they want to be. But that is another and maybe equally intriguing debate.) It has to be the Nashville Machine.

Don

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 12:31 PM

I do think age is a real factor Don. It would be hard for anyone over forty to make it big in Nashville, I believe.

DougR

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: 53
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:56 PM

Boy am I glad I don't have to listen to some of the bulls... in this thread.

I won't be back for awhile.

Too bad you guys don't really know the man Bob is.

Glenda (53 too)

Subject: RE: Buying your way in.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 09:50 PM

Yo, 53, like your dad told ya' when ya' jumped off the roof into the wading pool on a dare...Shake it off. Play.. and more importantly... enjoy your music. The rest of it will take care of itself. If it's your goal to "make it" then "make it" on the rung you're on now. Hey, for most folks, that's enough. Like I posted earlier. The world is full of very talented musicans. That top rung and even the rungs just below are reserved for the luckier, the most determined, the ones with well oiled connections and the ones who have been waiting in the wings to replace folks who occupy a niche. Country music isn't a whole lot different than NASCAR in that respect. Like I said, just enjoy playing, 53. That is the blessing.