Do age & sex make a difference?

Subject: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:25 PM

As a suggestion from the Eva Cassidy thread, I'm starting this as a separate discussion item.

There seem to be huge differences in how people hear the same voice. I'm a 58-year old male, and I really wonder if certain sound timbre and frequencies register differently with age and gender?? For instance I, and several other men I know, find Alison Krause's voice sexy and pleasing. A number of women I know deride her "little girl" sound. Do you think there is a difference in the way males & females discern voice quality?

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:29 PM

I dont hear her as sexy, but, rather a lovely young lady who sings in a manner that pleases the ear.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:41 PM

It wouldn't surprise me if men of middle age or older don't hear as much of the high end range of her voice as many women would.

I've done a bit of sound work, and I have found that most men beyond the age of about 35 or 40, have to crank the high end waaaaayyyyyy up because they can't hear it (I suppose because of abusing their ears when they were younger). This could result in a less "little girlish" sound to the men, and maybe even a bit deeper sound, which, I've been told, a lot of men find sexy.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

*G* kendall, I'm guessing you still have your high end. (You didn't abuse your ears listening to rock-n-roll at earth shaking decibel levels in your youth, did you?)

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Fortunato
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:47 PM

Age and sex definitely make a difference. Some things are against the law. (And some others ought to be.)

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:50 PM

In my case it's mostly age...

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 03:51 PM

I seem to recall that there is a typical pattern of hearing loss as one ages - (general pattern that is - as with most things there is a range - and of course it can also be influenced by genetics, environment, etc) - and I also seem to recall that the pattern is different for men vs women - I'll have to see if I can locate anything about that.

I wonder is there is some "hardwired" differences as well - perhaps for men to prefer women's voices - women to prefer mens...

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,jonesey
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:00 PM

Hey Les, Good start...nothing attracts more attention than putting the word 'sex' in the title. lol Just hope people will respond to your question rather than poke at your seeming lack of PC for having the temerity to suggest response to timbre has anything to do with gender/age. I'm in agreement to your female friends, I much prefer Alison Krause as a fiddle player. I find her voice, slightly annoying in the same way a little Joan Baez goes a long way. Although I respect both artists, alot. However, Eva Cassidy never fails to move me from an inexplicable emotional place. I'm a big fan of Dougie MacClean, Christy Moore, Merle Haggard, Buck Owens, Dick Gaughan, Slim Whitman, Marty Robbins, Andy M. Stewart and yet they never move me to tears. There's a Welsh singer by the name of Sian James who touches me in much the same way as Eva, but has a completely different vocal style. Should be some interesting comments on the way.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,jonesey
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:06 PM

Sorry...should have read "I'm in agreement 'with' your"...etc.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:08 PM

Les, posing as a guest, thankfully, let me say that Alsion Krauss really does it for me (M, early forties) and I never admit it in public. I've wondered the same things you mention. (Some guy here described an anticpated Krauss/James Taylor/others release as being bluegrass in a "Wyndham Hill sort of way." Man, that did it, and I keep quiet.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:10 PM

Sex doesn't do anything to age, and age has less effect on sex than is popularly supposed.

Both of them make a great deal of difference. It is hard enough to live a life without sex, but a life without age is practically impossible!! It is theoretically true that you can have too much of both, and certainly true that you can have too little of either. A lot more people die from age than from sex, I believe! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: MMario
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 04:12 PM

Okay - according to various sources on the web - the general tendencies are:

1) older people more likely to have significant hearing loss then younger

2) men tend to suffer hearing loss to a greater extent then women

3) normally more hearing loss is suffered in the higher frequencies then the lower

4) 60 % of both genders over the age of 65 suffer significant hearing loss in the frequencies utilized by the sounds of 's', 'th','k', 'f' (those four sounds utilize frequencies higher then most speech)

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Dagenham Doc
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 05:16 PM

I can still enjoy good music, just not as loud and long as it used to be ...... or is that good sex???. I was at a dinner party recently and someone asked " can you remember the first time you had sex?" .. shit, I can't remember the last!!! My body has changed shape, I've got no more control over my bodily functions, all my glands have swolen up.....! except the one that's designed to.

Doc.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 05:52 PM

Yes... I didn't mind that woman in Snow White when I saw it first over 15 years ago (late developer), now she's like fingernails down a blackboard, wheel trim against pavement or dentist's drill on a back molar.... she makes me want to mute the TV every time.... trust it to be one of the Bratlings' favourite films.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: 53
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:17 PM

I think she sound like a Munchkin from the Wizard of Oz.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:28 PM

It's all very subjective. I gave a tape of me singing to an old friend because she asked me to, and she took it to work so that she could listen to it - but her work is teaching autistic children and she found that playing the tape calmed them down, so it was a useful work resource. She said they liked the sad songs best, perhaps because they could relate more closely to the mood.

I find that the "little girl" voice sounds shallow. But this is a very longstanding debate because I wasn't impressed by Shirley Collins' singing when I first heard it, as I thought she just sounded like an untrained and childlike singer - which of course she was. Some of the most moving voices aren't very musical.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:30 PM

I may regret having tied "sex" to this, but I can't help thinking that one of the body's prime instruments - the voice - would have some sort of testosterone/pheromone related "attractant" attribute - and perhaps goes through changes (both in delivery and reception ??) through the stages of being a juvenile to an adult to a geezer.

As I re-read the above, I'm reminded of the voice breaking ritual that some males go through at about the age of 13 - 14 !

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:36 PM

I like Alison Krause..also like Iris Dement although I don't go out of my way to hear either of them. Someone mentioned Dougie McClean..I just can not listen to him at all..something hurts my ears when he sings...mg

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 06:52 PM

Yea
one shortens the other - official
eunuchs live longer - by about 2 years on average.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:05 PM

But who calls it living?

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: breezy
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:14 PM

You appreciate it all the more as you float through the years, so as you age it all looks,feels and sounds better.
I want to hear Herga kitty!

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:17 PM

Sure. Age makes me crankier; sex makes me less cranky.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:27 PM

Carol C, I have taken good care of my hearing, and even in my 60's, it is still too good at times! Slim Whitman has a very good voice, so did Jim Reeves, but, I still rate Paul Robeson near the top. I cant decide if I like Iris Dement or not, her Infamous Angel is a very moving song, but, her voice or style gets to me after a while and I find it annoying.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:58 PM

I like Alison Krause's voice. I like a lot of young sounding voices. Jean Ritchie's clear voice always sounds young to me. Maddy Prior's voice is high and strong. June Tabor has what is probably my favorite voice.

Frankly, for me it's the expressiveness, fullness and on-pitchness in a voice that make me like it. It's also phrasing, emotion and a lot of other things besides the voice that make me want to listen to a singer.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:23 PM

As usual, Jeri is right on.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Les B
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 01:46 AM

Kendall - I strongly agree with you about Slim Whitman and Jim Reeves - two great voices. I haven't heard, that I remember, Robeson. I also like Dement's Infamous Angel, but, like you, other of her songs grate on my patience.

Jeri, like you I also look for expressiveness and emotion in a voice - how well they "sell" the song, but my suspicion is it goes beyond that.

In interpersonal communication theory (way back in grad school) some theorists posited that 80% of a relational message is based on non-verbal attributes, not what the words are. For instance if someone is saying "I love you" while at the same time time using a very sarcastic or bitter tone, you tend to believe the tone. Consequently, I imagine that, at a subliminal level, some voices have tone/timbre embedded that is more or less appealing than others.

When I reflect on men's singing voices, there are very few that stop me dead in my tracks. I just find them more or less interesting because of unusual characteristics. Two that come to mind are Johnny Cash and Ernest Tubb. Cash, back when I first heard him in the late 50's had this incredible low bass sound that I still find delightful. Tubb, who I became aware of in later years, had an indescrible tone and twang that was instantly recognizable and appealing. Unfortunately, to my ear, he also sounded out of tune! However, I just heard a song by him on a classic country CD from the late 40's when he was a young man, and he was even more distinctive and appealing, and seemed to be in tune! Perhaps age and/or booze took him off-key in later years. But even these guy's voices don't get to me the way Judy Collins or Joan Baez or Mary Black and several other women singers do.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 04:00 AM

Some years ago, a young female friend of mine was involved in a survey of corncrakes (which produce a distinctive grating sound)on flood meadows of the River Shannon about ten miles south of where I lived. One afternoon she was talking to an old farmer , as they stood on the riverbank. He was lamenting the loss of the bird from the area - "Haven't heard one for years...". She could hear FIVE as they spoke. He wasn't deaf in general, but was obviously losing the higher frequencies.

Regards

p.s. He was also prescient, I'm afraid. The species is nearly gone from the area at this stage.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 05:47 AM

Breezy - you certainly should hear Herga Kitty!
She has an absolutely beautiful voice, and uses it to great effect.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 05:49 AM

I wonder how long some of the youger generation will keep their hearing judging from the high volume levels they choose for both in-car sound systems and personal stereos. They even make my chorus singing sound fairly unobtrusive !

By the way, BREEZY - I'm sure that you must have bumped into HERGA KITTY at some time or other - she's been around nearly as long as us !

And KITTY, if you haven't met BREEZY before, be careful - John's even more a lecher than I am - I used to get saddled with all his cast-offs !

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM

Language changes very rapidly, and so does the way people speak. You can get left behind. I can't stand the way young people talk, and I'm only 53. I find I can't listen to some of the young singers like Bill Jones, Kate Rusby, Cara Dillon etc. - they just sound like silly little half-formed schoolgirls and I just can't wait for them to start sounding like people. But I realise that to others they sound perfectly normal. ... As for Iris Dement, if I'm listening by myself e.g. in the car, I think she's got the most attractive voice in the world, but if I'm with others they all laugh and so do I.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 12:12 PM

I guess one of the other dimensions of voice quality that might enter into this is race/culture. A woman I loaned my Eva Cassidy CD to said if she hadn't read the liner notes she would have thought Eva was a black woman (although I don't hear it). When Elvis Presley hit the scene, his manager, the Colonel, reportedly expected great things because he had found "a white man who sings like a black man."

I hear something in the voice of Nana Mouskouri that I associate with Greek singers, and,recently, in the film Vengo, by gypsy director Tony Gatlif, there was a Spanish gypsy singer who had a powerful, raw, primal sound that just bowled me over. I also hear that same raw, but slightly different, sound in the voice of Hazel Dickens, the American Appalachian singer.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: breezy
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 03:43 PM

and you finished 'em off dave.
I think I came across H-K at a sing in Moor-mill, hope to come across her again.
I've got the St.Albans Folk Club starting next week at the Comfort Hotel and running for 8 weeks.Anyone coming from this community? I had some support in cornwall. Shall we discuss this topic and compare notes at 'alf-time?

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,paddymac, still cookieless for some unknown
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 04:04 PM

I recall reading that in the human female, the lower part of the hearing range expands with age. Older women (especially apartment dwellers, it seems) tend to be the first one's to complain about too much bass. I've chatted informally with local cops and they confirm that most of the calls they respond to in re the local noise ordinance are from older females, and the complaints commonly involve low-end sounds the officers not infrequently can barely hear.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 04:11 PM

So men lose the highs and women gain the lows. Record producers, take note.

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 06:34 PM

KB/ Kris - thanks very much. I'm still blushing.

Breezy - yes, I did sing a few times at Moor Mill, and even in Harpenden when Hugh Diamond was living there.

Dave Bryant - thanks very much for warning me off lechers, even while at the same time making me sound like one of the ruins that Cromwell knocked about a bit. I was actually quite young when I started this folk singing lark and got picked to sing in the concerts at the London Folk Music Festival (which is how I met Kevin Sheils and Clive Woolf, but that's another story.)

Is this a thread about age and sex, or age and gender...?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 04:13 AM

I was only joking Kitty, but I'm sure that John must have met you at some time - haven't you been to any of his Padstow events ?. Anyway, it shouldn't take too long for the venerable Mr Breeze to drive from St Albans to Harrow so that he can find out how delightful you are. Don't worry though, like me, John's getting a bit long in the tooth now. When most people suffer from hearing loss they wear a hearing aid - John keeps a radio mic strapped to his head so that he can still hear what he's singing !

Subject: RE: Do age & sex make a difference?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Apr 02 - 10:08 AM

In the case of my dachshund...yes and no. He still is inclined to hump virtually anything, animate or inanimate, but he does it less frequently than he used to.

Does that help clarify things?

- LH