Folk Mafias?

Subject: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Witness protection scheme
Date: 30 May 02 - 04:30 AM

I have made wonderful friends and met lovely people in the folk music World and have been thrilled that in a cynical World by and large the community of people who wear folky "hats" are overwhelmingly kind and mutually supportive and nurturing of each other.

But .. whaddya do when there's a Folk Mafia operating? I mean when folks have been doing what they do for years have established impregnable niches and have creamed off, (because they've been established for years) e.g., regional listings, websites, circulation distribution avenues, etc within a given area: and then some sort of ego or arrogance seems to come into play - "Do as I say - don't do as I do": E.g., Having been asked to, I've co-operated and publicised their gigs / information / clubs through my channels and at cost of photocopying with hard copies and distributed their stuff to new outlets and paid advertising costs to them regularly.

So, I thought "Hang on, I've got a really crucial gig coming up - I've always willingly helped them out I'm sure by the return token they'll do this one thing (which I've never asked for before)"

Zip, Zilch, Big Fat Zero. And talking to other "young" events organisers locally (who have done the same as me - helped out willingly the 'old' boys and publicised to their 'new' audiences what the established lot are up to) they are getting the same deal - or rather Zip, Zilch, Big Fat Zero.

Does this happen widely - or is it just 'our'area?

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: paddymac
Date: 30 May 02 - 04:52 AM

It's a fine line to walk, between being a true folkie and trying to make money. When money rears its ugly head, it sometimes happens that even folkies forget themselves and fall victim to mercenary motives. And, with money comes a number of ego games. Professionalism and courtesy, as difficult as they are to define, are the best approach. I don't see that either of them means you should promote others at your expense. If you're doing promotional things you should be getting paid. Reciprocity can work, if it is indeed reciprocal. There is also a common problem of tacit or unspoken assumptions that turn out not to be mutually understood. That's a communications error. Bottom line, if what you're doing isn't making you feel right about doing it, don't do it.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 02 - 06:04 AM

I would disagree with paddymac's implication that it's money rearing its ugly head that sets off these sort of problems. Sure money is a terrible dangerous thing, but performers' egos and the fight for recognition are all powerful, never mind whether they're doing it for money orlove. I don't think the professionals are any worse than the amateurs. And it's not only performers: the internal workings of voluntary organisations (sporting, charitable, religious etc) are just as red in tooth and claw as any work place!

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 02 - 07:31 AM

I think both paddymac and greg are right to a degree. But I disagree with witness' initial portrayal of folkies as being somehow nicer and better than other people are. In my experience, musicians of all kinds are no more or less exceptional than any other group of people associated by hobby or job category. In my years, I've worked with a lot of folkies, a lot of other musicians, and a lot of other artists, and a lot of volunteers from all walks of life. I feel I can safely say that all folkies aren't wonderful, lovely people. So witness, maybe you have unrealistic expectations of the people you are working with, for starters. Again, I agree with Greg, its just as bad among amateurs as proferssionals.

That said, you seem to have a problem with folkies who, at some point in your community, created a hierarchy with themselves at the top, and for whatever reasons (money, ego, local 15 minutes of fame, power and influence over others) they are firmly entrenched and not giving and sharing like you, and probably every young aspiring folkie sort of musician in the area believes they should.

I wish you all the best of luck, because frankly, I don't think there are many areas where there is a folk presence in a local community, that this hasn't happened. It has happened where I live too. What the talented newcomers and young up and coming musicians have attempted to do, is to get gigs in the non-traditional places, or at least do house concerts, college shows, play coffee houses that aren't on their circuit. But even that doesn't always work, and if you are serious about performing, you have to go farther afield.

People really do become blinded by the positions they attain. I'd like to say that most folkies don't succumb to the trappings of fame (from local to international) and power, but in my experience, they absolutely do. And when they attain those positions, you have pry them out of their cold, dead hands before any newcomers are given a chance. I think this behavior actually improves among the most successful professional folk musicians who go on to national and international standing. But it doesn't disappear, by any means.

Anyway, good luck.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 May 02 - 08:14 AM

Yes. Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:03 AM

I'm afraid this type of thing occurs in the UK too. Here in Manchester there are sessions where almost any ones welcome and ones run by "the exclusive brethren" as they are known locally. In fact these aren't really sessions at all but performances by people who hardly ever play with anybody else. They actively discourage people they don't know from attending and if new people do go they behave in an offensive ignorant manner until they leave. They seem to think they own the music (even though it was there before they were born and will still be there when they're dust). The worst aspect of it fore me is the way they treat beginners; with utter contempt. To me there is nothing more faltering than being asked by a beginner for help. I don't teach formally but if someone asks me for help I give it. This is not entirely altruistic I want to be playing in sessions into my old age(if I make it), with people of all ages like I do now. All the best PP

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:33 AM

Wouldn't want to play in sessions like that anyway. Most aren't like that in my experience.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:49 AM

Lived a sheltered life McGrath? ;-)

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:57 AM

Pied Piper: get out of Manchester and come on out into the Cheshire/Shropshire sticks. We're real friendly folk and dont play too fast

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Different One
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:22 PM

I think a lot of the problem is that once the older male (I'm assuming they are male, because you mention "old boys" network) folkies reach a certain point, doing the grunt work of organizing and advertising gigs is perceived as grunt work that they are somehow above.

Same sort of dynamic you see in offices where old boys don't type or "waste their time" doing work the grunt force can do for them.

Of course, all the savvy young boys can type and organize circles around the old boys. But then, when they grow into a place where others begin to do for them just what you were asking for, they become the same as the old bossman "old boy" folkies.

Which is why fewer and fewer women folkies are putting up with any of you!

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: mooman
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:31 PM

There is certainly one operating here in Belgium...mostly motivated by certain individuals controlling bookings at certain venues, money and big egos.

I have no wish to be involved in that sort of scene, which for me is the antithesis of the "folk" philosophy, and like to enjoy my music whether paid or not... so now get together with people of a like-minded disposition and operate well outside of "the mafia"!

Best wishes to all,

mooman

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:32 PM

I think that people who consider themselves folk musicians have a single paramount duty: to give as freely and generously as they were given to. If a folk musician becomes a bottleneck rather than a conduit, s/he has failed in the most fundamental way possible.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Fortunato
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:41 PM

Squash a folkie and you'll find he or she was all to human on the inside. It's no surprise. We all want to share with someone who has more! We need to remember to look behind us back to who helped us get to where we are.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 02 - 12:50 PM

And those who didn't! <:)

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 May 02 - 01:03 PM

so much unsaid in the original post...about exactly what you asked for and why they refused. (I assumed from various clues (spelling, mostly) that this WAS in the UK).

Sure, established networks tend to get locked in...but new stuff has to happen, too. If you can't say more, it's hard to decide exactly who is being selfish/greeedy and who is asking too much.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 May 02 - 03:50 PM

No question that there are places where it seems that there is a sort of "Black Hand" that controls who gets access to venues, and who doesn't--you can generally tell if there is something going on by the way beginners and newcomers are treated--if they are taken advantage of, clandestinely mocked, and ultimately shut out, you know that things are run by the few for the few--if they are welcomed, given encouragement, and support, and opportunities, it is a different story--

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Kernow John
Date: 30 May 02 - 05:17 PM

Guest
I can't tell where you are from but if it's by any chance the Southwest UK pm me and I gaurantee you a listing on two web sites. One with an average 50 hits a day.
Can't stand folk mafias.
KJ

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 30 May 02 - 09:57 PM

Funny thing...

I just recently heard some pretty unlfattering stories of ego involving a fairly small and unknown folk group.

Then again, my group has first hand experience of the grace and kindness of the likes of Tom Lewis, Janie Menealy, and Meg Davis.

I just have a hard time with the pigeon-holing of a whole group. There are gooduns and baduns no matter what rung of the ladder your on.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:12 PM

I'd say more than yes... but we need a folkie witness protection program first... Anonimously, (brown bag over my head, dark glasses, trench coat, behind a screne, and wearing a wig, big hat, and wellingtons (just for the hell of it...) Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 30 May 02 - 10:16 PM

There is always a .______________ Mafia. Its in folk music, craft fairs, church committees, village boards, etc. Its the nature of the human condition. There are always .______________ snobs as well.

"I've heard music before and its Opera!"

Can't get rid of them.

In Syracuse there is an established Session at a local where the instrumentalists hold forth. They play both jigs and their constituent variations over and over. Then they the same with both reels. For hours without talking or smiling very often. Then someone will say

"Can I sing The Limerick Rake?"

And the instrumentalists will all need to pee or fix their hose or get a breath of air while a fine vocalist stretches out the song. OR they make it very clear that this is an instrumentalist Session.

"If god had wanted men to sing he wouldn't have given them whistles, dammit!"

The musicians I hang with aren't good enough for the Mafia or the Session crowd. But we are working and they aren't generally. And I think thats where the high moral tone over money comes in.

Don

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 02 - 07:05 AM

Nay, 'tis the nature of patriarchy.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Jeri
Date: 31 May 02 - 10:07 AM

Everywhere I've been, there has been some sort of established order that's seemed hard to crack. Sometimes folks actively try to keep others out. More often they just don't go out of their way to help newcomers feel welcome. All it takes is one or two people who show some interest in you.

This works better for sessions than getting/publicizing gigs, where the chance of running into one of those people who care about anything outside their well-established world is a lot more rare. It still can happen, but it's rare. I'd guess the only reasonable thing to do about it is be persistant. Getting mad at them enough to retaliate in some way may only serve to take you out of the game permanently.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 May 02 - 08:13 PM

Alas, stealthy folks worming and burrowing their ways into subcultures of any kind, folk and otherwise, for whatever reasons, motives and agendsas, is the reason these scenes change and morph into cancerous parodies of what real folk is and/or ought to be.

You will get what you deserve.

Love,

Ewan MacColl BIG SMILE

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Bert
Date: 31 May 02 - 11:08 PM

It's my experience that the best musicians and performers are those who give the most encouragement to beginners and to those who are not quite as talented.

Most of those who hog the venues appear to be the ones that have not quite made it professionally and whose only chance of success is to keep others out.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,CommuniK
Date: 31 May 02 - 11:11 PM

Yes, here too there be an entrenched Folk Mafia. A patriarch hierarchy of Good Ole Boys (and a few token gals to mop up after them when they behave really badly).

And yep, you are soooo right there Smiley MacColl, the Mudcat duffers have gotten exactly what they've deserved hanging on with all their might to their place in the forum pecking order.

Why, I think they might bury a few of the forum folk with their keyboards and mouse, and put "A COURAGEOUS MEMBER WITH A NAME of mudcat.org" on their tombstones.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Marc
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 09:15 AM

I think some times we're just impatient, you have to live in some communities for generations before your local. I remember when I started gigging, or trying to, quite a few years ago now. I felt that I was personally up against the big boys, and they just weren't shareing. It took alot of work, and I frequently felt certain people could have been more supportive. Now, although I don't consider myself at the top of the heap. I can see it, and the folks up there can hear me.

Today, if approached for help or advise, by someone looking up to me. I try to be as polite and helpfull as possible, with advise. But I'm not going to find work for you. I've got all I can do to keep myself working. And I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge while establishing my place the old fashion way, with hard work and perserverance.

I believe in this day and age many of us are alittle to expectant of immediate gratification. And the internet has become a great means for such gratification. Where as, instead of assembling and then thumbing through a stack of recordings. Then sitting infront of the stereo listening over and over and over again. We can come here and request the Lyrics and Guitar Chords to All For Me Grog or Old Dan Tucker. The info is immediatly there, but there are important skills, (particularly for a folkie), that just aren't being developed. The same is true of learning how to book and maintain a gig.

The established community is usaully not being exclusive because they take pleasure in being cruel. It's just that they earned a place in the community, and you have to also. Unfortunately that sometimes can take some time.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 09:27 AM

Ah, a status quo folkster.

So young people are to wait until their next life, because they don't deserve a place in the community because their elders (supposedly) earned theirs first?

The folk community is really elitist in this regard. And damned if some of us don't think thats just bullshit.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:15 AM

And what was the folk scene like before McColl wormed his way into it?

If newbies are rejected by the established folkies, they won't stop making music. They'll just do it without the guidance of the old farts and the "cancerous parody" could end up being healthier and looking prettier to other newbies than the tired old original. If that original doesn't have any new growth, it will become extinct.

I noticed a serious "Catch 22" when asking a local person about getting someone a gig in the area. Basically, he told me "I book people I've heard of." How do people hear about folks if they can't get gigs because you haven't heard of them?

The whole thing stinks when it becomes a competition and someone thinks "Ahh...I'm not going to help so-and-so because people will listen to them, not me." The bigger and better the local musicians' community is, the bigger the community of listeners. There's also the "people were tough on me, so I'm getting even with them by being tough on you" mentality. It shouldn't have been so hard for you to get gigs if you were good. It shouldn't be so hard for other musicians.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:23 AM

I love the way the GUEST sits and makes smug pronouncements as if in possession of some superior knowledge. But the last post revealed him/her for what s/he is. Either a young "in a hurry, I am so talented" person, or a person who had their ego knocked around when they were young. Get over it. You imply that somehow it is an organized folk crime family and a vast conspiracy among the folk elders. Same as the way you talk about the "Mudcat Inner Clique". It is neither. It is simply life. In this world one is continually faced with cracking various groups to one's own ends. If a young person doesn't like the stuffy old fogies that are caught in the "there is one way to play and that is the way we played it when I was young" trap, then they will find another group. Or prove to this group that they have a way. It is human nature and in large measure, the folk process. Be creative, find a way to express yourself in the way that suits you best. See if you can find an audience for your message. And kwitcherbitchin. Or don't.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:35 AM

It is not young or old... it is just the old clique, and at the risk of sounding bitter, some folks just can't get into the inside no matter how tallented or accepted by the audience. Case in point, last years woody guthry birthday bash, a clique made up of very nice folks, who I am really fond of, organised it, during my rants about Pine Woods...well I was included as a "guest artist..." as this year things were organised, and after I was finally cooerced into joining Pine woods, once again I offered to take part, and the list was posted to Mudcat, and guess who was not on it, after I quite openly said, I would play if asked, now I am expected to feel included by the phrase "guests artists will also take part...". Look no offence to a bunch of nice folks, but there are some clubs that one just can't get into. Ce le vie. Sin e doigh, what ever, Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:53 AM

And so what do you do, Larry? You continue to plug on, looking for other audiences, finding other places to break into, and creating your own set of fans and venues. You are the prime example of my point. What is the alternative? Quit playing? You could no more do that than quit breathing. Is it unjust? Yep, lots of stuff is. Unfortunately in this world, try though we might (and I have made a career of trying), we cannot stop the bullies from knocking us down. But we can damn sure keep getting up, and trying again. I have a very clear picture in my minds eye of what I would like it to be like in music circles, workplaces, and all the other things we run into. Trouble is all these other damn people don't have the same wonderful view that I do (he says tongue planted firmly in cheek), damn fools that they are. And so we just find our own place. Or change the one we don't like.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 11:03 AM

No you are right Mick... my father was asked how to write a novel, he was an award winning writer in the 50's... he said you write because you can't help it, and if you have to ask how, don't do it.
You wirte and sing, even if no one is listening, it hurts more than most of the drones who tell you to stop complaining know, but sick or well you go on, playing with broken ribs because you have something the audience needs to know, to care about, and t'hell with the drones who think the club is the music. (not directed at anyone in particular...) Keep smiling mate, Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

Hey, kids,

There was a **SMILE** on my post. It was a parody---a humorous post. My signing "Ewan MacColl" to it was just an allusion to the fact that, in other times, Ewan (a giant and a monumentally important figure in things folk) saw a real and valid need to have actual rules at his Singers Club so the people who set that up could/would hear the music they had started the club to perpetuate and enjoy. That is certainly within their rights. If you don't like that, that your new songs about love in Brooklyn won't serve as a ticket into some groups, start your own situation. You and they will be more fullfilled.

"Folk Mafia" is just a designation to put people who don't agree with you in a bad light. You've probably succeeded.

Please, don't worry about being bitter. It's o.k. Bitterness has a way of turning into real enlightenment when, like pain, it is allowed to teach valid lessons. You folks who spend time paying your dues and trying to get musically and aesthetically "good", please see that it's time well spent. Enjoy it. Find ways to let the hard times be character building for you. Romanticize those. Turn them into literature and love them. These will serve you in good stead when the real hard stuff of life hits you--as it most assuradly will---as attested to by so many of us Mudcatters who have been soothed by this place on occasion----even by the nurturing B.S. threads. Those often seemingly banal threads, just may have helped to save some pretty beautiful minds---if not lives.

Bert, you are correct -I remember a ten year old Mark O'Connor going to the fiddle contest at the Winfield, Kansas festival and WINNING. It was easy to "encourage" that young man. With other kids, it's not so easy to do 'cause they think their little song creations, which are really only just musical hairballs, are already Beethoven's 9th Symphony. For those, "going to the crossroads" might be a better idea if they are intent on being talented quickly.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 01:07 PM

"Bitter" is the name for a pretty good kind of beer.

There's probably at least as much unfairness against older performers as there ever is against young ones. Even in this thread there have probably been a lot more insults aimed at people for being old than there is for being young.

That kind of thinking and that kind of talk are a distraction. The problem isn't age versus youth, it's that people misuse the levers control they have been entrusted with.

But looked at positively, this is the process by which new music venues get opened up, and new combinations of people get to use them. And in time these new channels tend to silt up. That's how a delta gets built up over time.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 02:26 PM

Art, I saw the smile. Maybe I should have added one to my post. Wondering what it would have been like if folks told McColl "If you wrote it, don't sing it here!"

Ambition is the root of all failure, and desire the root of all heartbreak. (Ooh...look! I've gone all Taoist...) I wouldn't want to imagine the world without either, though. To be realistic, the only ambition I have the power to make realitiy is what I, myself, can do. Ambitions and desires that rely on other people to make reality are dreams, and dreams need luck to come true. Trying to force other people to make your dreams come true for you often winds up in failure. Who wrote "you gotta sing like you don't need the money?"

Art, I've been bitter. The one big lesson I learned from it is that I don't like feeling that way. What makes me feel bitter is always wanting something I can't have, whether it's money, recognition or friends that don't want to be friends. I can go through life blaming other people for how miserable I am, or I can just get over it or find something I can do that will make me happy. (Note: I mean something positive. I do not mean boiling anyone's bunny rabbit, slashing their tires or leaving flaming dogshit-in-a-bag on their front porch.)

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: toribw
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 02:56 PM

As a member of a new group, just now really trying to find places to play, I've run into both types of fellow musicians, sharers and non-sharers.

In my experience, the non-sharers seem to be less confident of themselves, as if we would be taking something away from them. Sharers seem to be unfazed by other groups coming along, in fact, they encourage, advise and introduce, and offer whatever help they can.

I am perfectly capable and willing to get my own shows, and don't expect others to do that for me. But it's hard for me to fathom the notion that sharing knowledge could somehow ruin my chances for performing, succeeding, whatever.

I may be naive, perhaps, but I will be one of the sharers.

Jeri, I thought your earlier point about competition was right on the mark.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Singer from the Heart
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 03:55 PM

Who wrote "you gotta sing like you don't need the money?"

A line from "Come From The Heart," written by Suzanna Clark and Richard Leigh, sung by Guy Clark, Garnet Rogers, Kathy Mattea, and me.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 04:14 PM

Thanks, SFTH.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 08:03 PM

Amen. As usual the wisdom of years of disappointments and triumphs shines through Brother Art's words. Now there is wisdom worth listening too.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 08:54 PM

Mick,

Nice of you to say that, sir. But too often I get facetious here when I mean to be funny. Often it's because one post or another has hurt my sensibilities some. Would that I could put in a delay of 24 hours every time I "click from the hip" without thinking first. Then I could hit "CLEAR ENTRIES" after thinking two or three times about the crud I'm sending out for the world to see. I'm sure less hurt might be done that way. Just know, people, my spewings are often but not always simply one guy's opinion off the top of his head and in the heat of the moment.

Art

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:26 PM

Forty-three years ago Rolf Cahn, one of the most versatile folk singers and guitarists I have ever met told me the following:—

"I never think about competition. I once had a chance to hang out with the Mercedes team during the thousand mile Mexican Road Race. There were Jaguars, Porsches, Ferraris, Allards, Cunninghams, they were all there. But during the strategy meetings, none of the other cars were ever mentioned. All the Mercedes team talked about was getting the Mercedes from point A to point B as fast and as safely as possible. So I don't waste my time and energy worrying about competition. I just try do the best that I can do."

If I couldn't sing at the local pubs or clubs or if I found trying to sing there unpleasant or distasteful for whatever reason, I would sing wherever I could. I'd put a number of different programs together and offer them to schools, retirement homes, and organizations that might want entertainment at their meetings or special events. I'd also make myself available to do benefits and sing for charities. I'd look for any place where there was a potential audience. I would build my own following.

Folk Mafia? No, I don't think so. That implies some kind of conspiracy. But there are people out there who try to maintain a nervous grip on whatever they have and regard anyone new as a threat. The problem with one singer or group singing at the same place all the time is the matter of overexposure. They can get stale after awhile. If you really want to sing there, be patient. But in the meantime, don't just sit on your hands.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Suffet
Date: 02 Jun 02 - 10:35 PM

Larry,

I am really hurt that you have not responded to my private e-mail, but instead have chosen to use this public forum. I feel I must respond in this same forum, if only to put forward my side of the story.

I invited you to participate in the 2001 Woody Guthrie Birthday Bash because you asked to be invited. I took a chance and it worked out well. I also took a chance on the punk-rockers, and it worked out not-so-well. When it came time for the 2002 Woody Guthrie Birthday Bash, I told you to get your pipes ready, and once again I asked you to be a guest performer. You have not responded, but the offer is still on the table.

For the record, I did not ask you to be one of the featured performers because your material is pretty different from what I have in mind for the show. We can discuss this in private.

I must point out that the Woody Guthrie Birthday Bash is not a New York Pinewoods production. It has nothing to do with the organization, aside from the fact that four of the five featured performers and all of the guests (so far) are members. You, too, are a member, and you joined of your own free will. No one coerced you, although I did suggest to you that you join. As a member, your dues covered your admission to a really fine Peggy Seeger concert back in April, and your membership entitles you to hear five more concerts within the year. As a member you will get the monthly newsletter, and you will get discounted admissuon to many wonderful events. It's really quite a bargain.

Beyond all this, I just want to remind you that I have been working hard to promote you and your music. I was in part responsible for recommending you to the Peoples Music Network, which gave you a spot on their Asheville, NC, concert last January. I'm only sorry you weren't at the PMN gathering in Beacon, NY, that ended today. Your presence would have been most welcome.

In addition, I purchased a number of your CDs, which I have been giving away as gifts or samples. And I have been tryng to get you invited to do educational workshops on the uileann pipes for more than one organization with whom I have some connection.

Enough said for now. If you still want the guest slot I am holding for you, contact me by e-mail of PM. As I told you, I will make a token payment to the guest performers, regardless of the gate. After I cover all the cost of promotion and publicity (flyers, press releases, mailings, ads, etc.) on my own, that token payment means you would come out far ahead of me!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Jun 02 - 11:14 PM

In any folk circle, there are favorites that get booked over and over again. I know of festivals where the same performer has hosted the same workshop for at least twenty years. If you're not in that circle, it's frustrating... assuming you want to be in such a closed circle. But if you're in the circle, that may not seem so bad. At least you get booked every year. But in the long run, it gets boring. Same old same old. I like to hear "new" people, and I like to get pushed to grow a little. Rick Nelson's Garden Party dealt with that pretty well, I thought. But, if folk circles can get insular, so can audiences. I've seen that, trying to book a concert series. There are some audience members who only want to hear the same little group of singers do pretty much the same sets, year after year. But then, if the folk music world was built upon change, I guess there wouldn't be many songs that have been carried on through the years.. Can't win for losin'. The best thing to do is never take it personally..:-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Jun 02 - 11:44 PM

Art, my friend, read your own words:

"Folk Mafia" is just a designation to put people who don't agree with you in a bad light. You've probably succeeded.

Please, don't worry about being bitter. It's o.k. Bitterness has a way of turning into real enlightenment when, like pain, it is allowed to teach valid lessons. You folks who spend time paying your dues and trying to get musically and aesthetically "good", please see that it's time well spent. Enjoy it. Find ways to let the hard times be character building for you. Romanticize those. Turn them into literature and love them. These will serve you in good stead when the real hard stuff of life hits you--as it most assuradly will---as attested to by so many of us Mudcatters who have been soothed by this place on occasion----even by the nurturing B.S. threads. Those often seemingly banal threads, just may have helped to save some pretty beautiful minds---if not lives.

That is wisdom, Sir. Those who have this kind of wisdom often don't see it as such. I, and many others, are very greatful for those here that can offer these types of insights. You, Jean Ritchie, Sandy Paton, Dan Milner, and Rick Fielding can share these types of things with us, and folks like myself learn from them. Thanks for sticking around and "passing it on".

All the very best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 06:16 AM

Hiya Steve: As I said, you are a fine fellow, and there is not any kind of evil intent on your part, but ask yourself about this whole "guest artist" stuff. This thread is about cliques, and the fact is the new york folk scene is a serries of cliques, from the Irish sessions to all the rest, that is just the way it is, as to not responding to your PM, there was not much to say. As you may note from other posts, I have not been on line much this past few weeks, I have been attending to the death of a friend, and having a bit of trouble typing from a biopsy on one of my playing fingers.
Look, I am just inviting folks to look at the Woody Guthery memorial threads and ask how they'd feel if they were me, is there a clique, judge for yourself. As to a mafia, well, that is more the record companys, no hard feelings, lots of thanks, but face it, there IS and ARE cliques.
CHeers, and for folks who didn't go last year, I highly endorce the Woody event...
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Fortunato
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM

Musical hairballs. Well, Art, you made me laugh big, I'm getting tears in my eyes, here.

cheers, Chance

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 04:00 PM

Interesting note on Mark O'connor Gary Lee Moore once said at FiddleTunes that Mark Oconnor won the Weiser fiddle contest 4or5 years in a row and was told he would be a judge the following year and give other kids a chance. Well he gave some kids who made the slightest error a zero out of ten, cause he was mad he couldnt compete. Hows that for encouragement? Of course it could be Gary made this up.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 05:19 PM

Larry,

I wish that, back in my performing days, I'd had a contact who is as helpful as Steve--be nice to him--

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 06:20 PM

Anyone remember who wrote these words a year ago?

A real folksinger doesn't worry about bookings. A real folkinger creates his/her own venue. On street corners. In campgrounds. In parks. In schools. At parties. At family gatherings. Wherever and whenever the opportunity arises. A real folksinger plays in hospitals, and hospices, and old age homes. A real folksinger plays in prisons, and libraries, and bus stations, and at street fairs. And a real folksinger doesn't whine and bellyache and complain because such and such club or festival wouldn't have him/her.

It was Steve! Take M.Ted's advice and be nice to him.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Jun 02 - 09:42 PM

HEY GUYS! Read carefully! I prefaced this all with nice things about Steve, I love the guy! As I said, and still say, the clubs, cliques, guilds whatever exist... some of us just aren't in the circle. Read the three Woody Guthery memorial posts and ask if you'd feel, "in the club" if you were me. As to if you concider me a "real folksinger..." well, sin e doigh... Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Witness P S
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:21 AM

NB: I haven't posted since the original posting - been in hospital for stress-related heart checks. I am female and have always co-operated with people, been community-minded and had the philosophy of treating others how I .. etc.. But, just this last week or so (in many aspects of life, not just music) have received so many messages that I am naive, (some!)humans are increasingly opportunistic and far from seeing the benefits of community co-operation are, basically, out for themselves. This has been a hard pill to swallow - that in order not to be systematically fleeced of time, money, effort I cannot give of those unless I am prepared to literally give them away - I mean I have never gone along with the line of reciprocity (I'll do this for you if you do this for me) instead that by putting something into the collective Universal goodwill pot (whatever, is spread around and makes everyone a bit happier, healthier, wealthier).

I have a letter in front of me attacking me because I queried the amount of money someone is repaying me + my neighbour is just literally laughing in my face because I need the money back now that I loaned them, in their time of crisis, in order to feed my kids.

Folk-wise - I've cheerfully promoted the Godfather's club's events and gigs, disseminated their information. I booked an artist who is internationally lauded as excellent but unknown outside the F/world - thus, please, could they, just this once, let their club members know directly - very much appreciated etc as I've never booked an artist before and am nervous about adequate publicity efforts (have paid the going rate to them for an advert) just a small email stating Date/time/etc - that's all! Zip, zilch, big fat zero - and as said in original post the same has happened to other 'young' club organisers.

Someone posted about sharers /non-sharers feeling secure / insecure: absolutely! I've always shared because I feel secure - now, I realise I must learn to be discerning of those whom I share with.

I guess I felt acutely disappointed because I have felt so at home and welcomed in the folk world and have made wonderful friends so, it came as a bit of a shock (in the same week or so of a lot of other stuff).

Guess I was just 'naive': I'd heard of a local folk Mafia - just hadn't worked out what it actually meant and who it was and what the implications were. My real friends (including those here) laughed like a drain at the mention of a folk mafia and knew who and what I was talking about before I'd even explained the whole circumstances and basically say 'Ignore them!' Well, they want to ignore enthusiasm and energy - I'll direct it towards it to those people who can and will happily use it. Sort of Biblical parable of the 10 silver/gold talents (is it?) One person went and buried them - keeping them intact but not using them; the second squandered them and had nothing left, and the third went and invested the money multiplying the original gift. (Something like that! :)

PLEASE don't have a go back at me about being whingeing and self-pitying - that is not the case at all. I was genuinely baffled/upset. This week has been a steep learning curve - I feel like I've been fundamentally 'got at' to STOP being so unconditionally generous with time, effort,committment - ending up in hospital on an ECG was unpleasant and specifically being asked if I had been especially stressed.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:41 AM

Well, witness, right you are. The days of being able to organize a cooperative and mutually cooperative folkies seems to be waining, we have to hope folks like you and I can keep well and get together and fight the system (systems!).
I hope you are on the mend, good luck,
Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM

That ain't the way it was in the beginning. And that should not be the way it is now. I take it you are buying into the Folk Alliance definitions of the "folk business" as it stands in this new millenium where realities might produce the kinds of stresses that victimize you and that you exhibit. I'm sorry for you. If this, as you describe it, is actually the reality of these times, I'm sorry for that. Also, it makes me glad I'm too ill to be involved in the scene now. If you'd allow me, I suggest you slow down, breathe deep and get into a less political and nore people friendly scene.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Jun 02 - 10:25 PM

There is a place where newcomers are made to feel welcome, and where their music gets a receptive hearing by a supportive audience. It's a place where Pete Seeger takes his turn doing scut work (e.g. cutting up vegetables for the next day's lunch) just like anyone else. It's a place where a complete unknown like Billy Oh or Joe Jencks gets the same chance to perform as Pat Humphries. Where is that place? It's the Peoples' Music Network.

Join us at our next gathering. It will be in Syracuse, New York, in January 2003.

Click for PMN website!


--- Steve

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 12:27 AM

GUEST Witness PS, I wish you were near me. We would go about the business of organizing folks in the scene against this type of treatment. We would create our own market and operate it like it ought be operated, and I will guarantee you that you would get the respect that one who is willing to give deserves. I hope that you will turn your confusion, hurt and anger into positive action. Someone has to take the stand for our music and our craft. Human nature being what it is, there are others in your community that feel as you do. Seek these folks out start your own collective.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 08:12 AM

Bye the by... I completely endorce Steve's praise for the PMNs... (make sure the N is there!!!) But, we do need more venues in New York... perfect example, the Indigo girls stopped off to do a TV spot in New York, on the way from Philly to Boston, as far as I know, they didn't do New York gigs... just kept going north... Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 09:24 AM

Witness PS This kind of cinical use of peoples altruistic tendencies is unfortunately all to common here in the UK. as a trivial example; yesterday I was in my local super market and a person dropped some shopping in front of me. I picked it up and handed it to them. they took it from me without saying thank you or smiling or even meeting my gaze. This won't stop me doing this in future but it is very sad. The same kind of thing happens far too often when opening doors for people as well. I think some folks took the previous Leaders dictat ; "there's no such thing as sociaty" too much to heart. Keep the faith all the best PP.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 11:52 AM

Whwn thar happens to me I just say, "YOU'RE WELCOME !!" Makes me feel better anyhow.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 05 Jun 02 - 05:48 PM

And I endorse Larry's endorsement of Steve's endorsement of Peoples Music Network. PMN is where I first got to hear Rick Libert and Andy Buck, and I have been a big Rick & Andy fan ever since. It was at the same PMN program in New York that I went to a workshop featuring agent Harold Leventhal on the business and career aspects of being a folk musician. Leventhal, if I recall correctly, represents Judy Collins and Pete Seeger among others, and he represented Woody Guthrie and Lead Belly when they were alive. And do you you know what his advice was? It was, "Forget it, kid. You'll never make it big in this business. Get a real job and sing what you want." Those are still words to live by.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,fortunato at home
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 07:02 AM

I have at times envied the success of other folks, those who stayed the course and were full time musicians, while I ducked out and went back to teaching school. They had I felt, more time to develop their craft, and experience. I couldn't quit the music, and the frustration was high sometimes. But in the end 'the middle way' where I play the local clubs and occasional festival while I worked a day job wasn't so bad. I wound up with health insurance and retirement and many, many good music friends. So I recommend it to you out there who are struggling. Go back to school, learn a trade, save your money, and sing part time. I've sung for a few thousand people and I've sung for two. Small audiences are audiences still, and the artistic transaction is the same (IMHOP).

All this to say work where you must, sing what you love and play where you can, and be happy you have the privilege.

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 07:34 AM

"If you don't live it ... it wont come out of your horn" Charlie Bird Parker... Larry

Subject: RE: Folk Mafias?
From: GUEST,Witness
Date: 06 Jun 02 - 07:37 AM

Thanks everyone for the concern, nurturing and good advice. The PMN looks great (will be looking more closely in a minute).

I'm taking deep breaths (Art!) chest still hurts a bit! Trying to do some rapid personality adjustments, i.e, I can still be caring/cooperative just don't also have to have "SUCKER" writ large across my forehead for some people to discern.

Yes, Pied Piper I'm in UK too and what is it? I walk about our town and there are all these people with 'dead' eyes - I can't recognise the Planet I grew up on. I think the difficulty is actually recognising who you're dealing with - people can be overtly aggressive without actually displaying it: postering in town - enthusiasm, acknowledgement, indifference, 'too busy', then the smooth reptilian 'I'm enchanted to help - give me one of your produced-at-no-mean-personal cost posters and I will ... throw it straight in the bin the second you leave.' (I mean why not just say 'No'?)

Anyway - onwards and upwards