BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep

Subject: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:17 AM

A friend has a baby 18 months old, and she has him heartscalded. He just can't get any sleep - three hours last night!

The kid cries and cries if she's away from company; they've tried toys, music, everything, but she just won't go to sleep at all. She's exhausted, the parents are exhausted. And if they leave her to "cry it out" she tears herself to pieces, scratching the eczema on her head and neck.

Any help gratefully welcomed.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:44 AM

See a pediatrician obviously the child has a medical problem not an emotional one

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:53 AM

Of course the child is being treated for her eczema, but the sleeping isn't a medical problem.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:02 AM

Does she sleep better if one of the parent's sleeps with her? I used to sleep with Hammerite quite a lot when she went thru phases of disturbed nights. I could never bear to leave her to cry herself to sleep - I'd much rather cuddle her. If its company that she wants while she sleeps why deny it? You can end up with a wonderful bond.
Would sound help - a monotonous repetitive sound can help little ones fall asleep (not folk then...).
Does she fall asleep on car journeys? If she'd fall into a deep sleep & sleep thru being brought back indoors it might be worth driving round a bit to get her to sleep. I've never had to do that, but I have heard of people who did it successfully.
Hope she settles down.

KRis

Kris

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:43 AM

My neice had this problem when she was a babe - actually didn't sleep through the night until she was almost 3.5 years old! Turned out to be milk allergies -which they discovered at about 12 months but it took them a LONG while to find the right formulae that didn't upset her.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:46 AM

"Heartscalded"? Interesting word; I've never heard it before. What does it mean, exactly?

Sorry I can't offer any helpful suggestions for the baby. Couldn't hurt to consult the family's pediatrician about the sleep problem, though, to rule out any possibility of additional medical concerns on top of the eczema. Besides, the doctor may have some good advice to offer for getting the child to go to sleep.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:50 AM

When my oldest was about that age I used to put him in the baby seat on the back of my bicycle and go for a ride. We would never get very far before I would feel his head fall against my back and he would be out like a light. Must have been a combination of the fresh air and the movement of the bike. I can certainly empathise with your friend because Matthew never developed a steady night sleeping pattern till he was about three. My back has never been the same lugging him around and rocking him. Now he is a grand boy of 13 and likes to sleep-in on weekends oh how the times change. Den

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:36 AM

I just sing 'em "What'll I do with the baby-o?"

It's a music thread, right?

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:49 AM

All four of my kids hated to sleep. They also would not cry themselves to sleep. At the worst they would "cat-nap" for 15 minutes then wake up screaming. Do double check for allergies, especially given the eczema. My youngest had eczema and asthma and an uncanny ability to scream during asthma attacks. I used to train my kids to sleep to lullabye CD's. I'd lay down and sing them to sleep, then sang a along to a CD, and eased out until the CD was enough familiar comfort. It's a long process, and some kids just have a very strong need to feel connected. Until then whenever possible sleep when they sleep even if it's short naps and when your real tired ... I spent many a night with ear infected children in a playpen and Pooh videos on the TV as I dozed 45 minutes at a time... Memories...

Tinker

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:52 AM

Run the vacuum cleaner - or any other big white noise generator. Often calms cranky babies. Plus, their crying isn't so piercing so you can put up with it longer, which calms the cranky parents too! Also, is the sleeplessness possibly a side-effect of the treatment for the eczema? Discuss with pediatrician?

Also, that allergy possibility seems a good place to look.

And driving around is only a good idea if the driver isn't as exhausted as the baby! My sister used to drive around on the highway with the windows down, and her twins would have to close their eyes from the wind - which would make them sleep, tricky tricky!

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:13 AM

w0w! What a great tip - run the vacuum cleaner! I think they've tried everything else; not sure about the baby-seat on the bike, but the da cycles a lot, so probably that too.

Heartscalded? It means, umm, that you're driven to demented sadness and desperation by something.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:26 AM

I don't know if it will work with 18mo old, but you can swaddle newborns very tightly, fasten with safety pins. I sort of mimics womb conditions.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:08 AM

I hate to say put on a video but our 18 month old son loves the Baby Einstein series { babyeinstein.com }. They really calm him down. Then a warm bath, some cereal,a lot of soothing words { keep the volume level down } and lastly a bedtime story and he's out. We've been very lucky - Brendan has been a great sleeper. Good Luck.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:34 AM

what is baby eating? and when? is she getting a lot of fruit juice? not a good idea...is she on soy milk? read up on health considerations for that...is she getting a lot of healthy fats? (read nourishing traditions by Mary Enig and Sally Fallon)...are parents fat phobic? If she is eating enough food, not guzzling juice all day...and is tested for allergies...I would give her a good size meal not too long before bedtime...maybe oatmeal or something stick to your ribs...I would also not have a TV going...and I would have her run around outside a lot during the evening to try to wear her out...I don't think I would let her in the bed but maybe make a little nest or have a mattress next to the bed for a while...

mg

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM

Well, I have two boys, now grown, but I went through several years of being sleep deprived. They used to like for me to either sing to them or read to them. That was fine and I enjoyed it TO A POINT but there's a limit as to how many hours a night you can "perform". But then I hit on a solution that worked well for us. I taped myself either singing their favorite songs or reading/telling their favorite stories. We'd have our "story time" or "song session" and then I'd put on a tape for them so they could listen. This soothed them and it was still mom's voice even though I was in the next room hopefully getting some much needed rest. They'd listen to the tapes over and over - all I'd have to do was come in periodically and reverse the tape or pop in a new one. I came up with some pretty good tapes, if I do say so myself, incorporating songs and stories. It was good fun for me and worked well for the boys. Also was good when they stayed with a babysitter sometimes, listening to good old mom was almost as good as having her there - it cut down on the separation anxiety.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

Eczema may be due to allergy to cow's milk. Switching to goat's milk (if you can get it) can solve the problem.

Not sure I want to explore the reference to Hammerite, though there were times when a hammer seemed to be an option worth considering.

In desperation at one of our children's insomnia, we used an over-the-counter medicine which I think was called called Dozol (sorry, it's a brand name, don't know what the chemical name of the active agent). But it turned out that it gave her hallucinations in which she saw herself being threatened by giant spiders. I hope they're not still selling it.

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:50 PM

Better still, record the parents' voices on a CD, put a CD player in baby's room, and set the player on "repeat" for the night!

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:08 PM

Could it be that is the only way the baby can express the eczema making her itch? Just a thought.

I, too, made a tape, though it was for my twin grandsons. We started playing classical, then reggae, folk, etc. for them before they were born and thereafter. They are just 4 yrs old now and have always gone to sleep to a tape, after mom or dad reads and sings to them. They insist on having their music tapes!

I agree on the something to eat and a warm bath. I also had a friend whose parents took her for a ride every night. I owuldn't let a kid dictate that much to me, but it worked for her.

Does your friend have any relatives or friends who can watch the baby for her? It is important that she get some time away for rest and whatever else she needs to replenish herself and not feel like a slave to a tiny human "bean." *bg*

Also, she might try rearranging the room, the sleeping arrangements...make sure the sheets are all cotton, no harsh soaps with overpowering smells to them in the laundry, etc.

With all good wishes,

kat

Subject: RE: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:17 PM

He may be teething, rub some brandy on his gums

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: allie kiwi
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 05:23 PM

Re the cows milk - if there is a cows milk allergy, switching to goats milk will not help in the majority of cases. The protein in cow and goat milk is very similar and most children allergic to one will be allergic to the other.

If scratching of eczma at night is a big deal, get some all in one sleepers made (like the little ones newborn babies have, with feet attached), with coverings over the hands as well as the feet. You want them in cotton, not synthetic material. There are patterns readilly avaialable for the basic outfit, just add the hand coverings.

I would suggest a parenting forum. If it isn't a medical problem, it is behavioural. Children learn very quickly how to push their parents buttons.

Allie
who wishes she did not have so much hands on knowledge about allergies

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: allie kiwi
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 05:28 PM

daniel 1234567890

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: allie kiwi
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 05:29 PM

Oops *blush*

Meet Daniel aged 2 1/2...

Allie

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: firínne
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:24 PM

Leave her up until she falls asleep! They HAVE to fall asleep sometime! Make sure she has a short nap during the day, when babies are over-tired they find it difficult to settle. Being outdoors a lot during the day usually makes them sleep a night. When she sleeps better I would imagine the eczema would clear up.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 06:57 PM

Hi Daniel!

(Very accurate typing there)

I've been there too, with the sleeping problems. I'm afraid the remedy IS to leave them to cry, much as it hurts (but taking some action to reduce the scratching in this case, as advised above).

Once they're settled in bed, after the regular, calming routine, say goodnight and leave.

If they cry, go back after 5 mins, settle them, say goodnight and leave. Then after 15 mins, if the crying continues, go back, settle again, and leave. Keep going back at increasing intervals. Eventually they'll go to sleep...

Do this again the next night, and if you can be firm in your resolve, it will work- crying time gets shorter each night, until after a few nights, no more crying! Going back at increasing intervals reassures them that they've not been abandoned, but they realise it's not worth crying. Eventually they'll learn to get themselves to sleep, which everyone has to learn at some stage.

I followed this method from a book when my daughter was about 18 months old. Very difficult, but VERY worthwhile to try. The book had spaces for writing in the time intervals and the crying time, so you could see the improvement over successive nights. Took my daughter 3 nights, I think.

I'd send you the book, if I hadn't already given it away to another needy parent!

Good luck, and PM me if I can help further.

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:01 PM

For a forum like this there's surprisingly little advice on which lullaby works best.

Another shattered illusion!

And what's more, it's way past my bedtime.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:11 PM

APC, now hush...there, there...Tumble in bed, my tired little sleepy head...The stars are in the sky...Time that your prayers were said...My little sleepy head...To a Prairie Lullaby......wasn't it implied that all lullies had been tried or were bieng tried..or...and didn't I and someone else say we made tapes of ourselves for the listening? **BG**

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:16 PM

OK...I admit it. I didn't read many of the above posts. I am tired, and I am in need of some food, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Mine was easy...I had my daughter in bed with me from the moment she came home from the hospital to the time she was 4. We never had issues of "seperation anxiety", or a host of other common "early childhood" hurdles.

In natural societies, Babies and nursing toddlers sleep with the Mom. It's Western civilizations notion to put small children in their own rooms. I can say from my own personal experience, having your baby with you is very rewarding to both parent and child.

We each must choose, but there's a little from the other side of the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: firínne
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:32 PM

I agree with Celtic Soul. I would never dream of putting a small baby or a young child in a room on their own. If they had siblings I still wouldn't move them until they were about two-and-a-half to three. My youngest is four and she is still in the bed with us!!

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:34 PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:45 PM

lol....well, that one worked! Sorry for the drift...

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,Walking Eagle
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 07:53 PM

All solutions sound kind of good. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the tried and (sometimes) true method of holding the child and rocking him/her to sleep. Try looking up The Harsh Baby Lulliby by Rosalee Sorrells. It's a soothing little ditty that helps to keep parents sane during this time. Is there a LaLeche club near at hand for mom/mum/dad? Even if the baby isn't breastfed, they can offer advice.

W.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:05 PM

Problem with rocking to sleep, or falling asleep at the breast or whatever, is that when the child wakes in the night, as part of the normal sleep pattern which everyone has, they can't get themselves back to sleep without rocking/feeding/whatever, hence disturbed nights for everyone, as seems to be happening here. Once a child has learned to get to sleep without props, they'll just turn over and go back to sleep, as we would. I'm sure this makes for a happier, more rested child, and of course the rest of the family- certainly did in my case.

If you're happy having your child in bed with you, fine, of course, but I could never relax when mine were in bed with me.

Many memories brought back by this thread, mostly happy ones :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:44 PM

I remember the desperation.It all comes bck. I found the Skye Boat Song was he best, or a low humming drone. But the real troubles we had withSally, eventually we cracked it by letting her cry...after 18 months of agony. It worked like a charm, but it was agony doing it and wondering if youre being cruel. But it cured theproblem in one night, for keeps.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: allie kiwi
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, Noreen

Yes, he's very precise about many things, puzzles, drawing shapes rahter than pictures - already starting to read, too, which is rather scary. I think nature is kind of making up for all his allergies.

Allie

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 08:54 PM

Noreen, that wasn't my experience at all. I was there, so there was never a need for props. She only needed feeding if she was hungry, not to quiet her. I slept very well, I might add. It as a very enriching experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:26 PM

Just make absolutely certain is is an emotional/behavioral problem instead of a medical problem before "just letting her cry"............babies generally only cry when they are in pain or have a "need". Of course, "need" may be manipulation, but be very sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: alison
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 09:34 PM

paging Dr Mark Cohen!!!!!

the "white noise thing" works well in the first few weeks...... like the womb noises tapes do (if they don't drive you round the bend..... they tend to make us midwives tear our hair out after a few hours)... better to find a nice soothing (easy listening) radio station (one that plays things at the same level with no alarming loud numbers thrown in).... and keep it at a very low level.

Noreen's suggestion of "controlled crying" does work but can be very upsetting to both parent and child.

I do think you need to get the eczema treated....

in Oz we have centres called "Tresillian" and "Karitane" (I'm sure other countries have the equivalent)... they are centres set up for dealing with feeding, coping and sleeping problems.... basically you can book your family in and they will help sort out the problem, there are trained people there 24 hours a day... so they can watch to see what is making the baby cry and help to decide how best you should respond.

good luck..... the good news is that is does improve... eventually...


slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Lynn
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:27 PM

maryrrf's taping idea was a great one. My current wife did a similar sort of thing for her kids when they were young. Now they cherish the tapes for the sound of their (then) young mother's voice.

I used to sing to my kids when they were younger..doing a variation on 'Hobo's Lullabye':

Go to sleep you weary baby/Let your troubles pass you by/ Can't you hear your daddy singing?/That's a baby's lullabye

Of course they were younger than 18 mo, but anything's worth a try for the sanity of the parent. And little variations on songs can provide a bit of diversion for a weary parent.

Been there. My heart goes out to him! It has the potential to form a fine bond there! That's worth keeping in mind.

Lynn

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,Billy
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:34 PM

It is most often some kind of discomfort which makes baby cry, the most obvious of which is a soiled diaper or gas. Eliminate both of these before seeking any other cure. It took us three long months of crying to find out there was a product called "Gripe Water" in the UK (and in some British stores in the US) a teaspoon of which helps the baby to bring up that last deep annoying bit of wind which no amount of rubbing and patting on the back can get.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 01:26 AM

Nearly all of the above are good suggestions. There's a book called Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems, by Richard Ferber, MD, the director of the Sleep Disorders Center at Children's Hospital in Boston. It's quite good. It sounds like this may have been the book Noreen used. Noreen also made a very good point about not having a child fall asleep in one setting and then moving him/her to a different one. Waking up during the night is normal; what's important is learning to put yourself back to sleep, and for many children the "strangeness" of the environment (compared with where they fell asleep) makes that much more difficult.

The issue of eczema raises a number of questions. The biggest one is, is this really eczema? Unfortunately, there are a number of doctors (including pediatricians as well as family docs) who aren't particularly strong on dermatology, and lots of conditions get labeled as eczema that aren't. (Here's a pretty informative page about eczema from the American Academy of Dermatology, and, since JTT sounds like an Eastponder, one from The National Eczema Society in the UK.) If it is eczema, and it's not under control, you can probably throw all the other suggestions above out the window until it is under control. Nighttime is when the itching of atopic skin is most intense, probably because of a lack of distracting stimuli. Some people's eczema can be triggered or worsened by dietary factors, but the biggest problem is simply dry, sensitive skin that is predisposed to itching. Topical moisturizers are essential, as well as topical anti-inflammatory medications. Make sure you're using a moisturizing soap for cleansing, or a waterless skin cleaner like Cetaphil. DON'T use Ivory! A new medication called Elidel can lessen or eliminate the need for steroid creams in some patients. When eczema is bad, there's almost always a component of infection. I've had countless patients improve dramatically with a brief course of an oral antibiotic--and there are a lot of doctors who don't know about that!

I've been there on a nonprofessional level, too: my daughter only seemed to need about 8 hours of sleep in 24 hours from the time she was born, although she often acted tired and cranky for the other 16! (She's now a sweet and delightful 7-year-old.) Good luck, and feel free to send me a personal message if you have any specific questions. (You can do that if you join the Mudcat!)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 02:07 AM

There is a lot of useful advice including the controlled crying technique in a book called 'Toddler Taming' by a Dr Greene. Freely available both here in the UK and in the States (he's an American himself), we found it invaluable. Get the softback copy though, hardbacks leave a mark..... (JOKING!!)

Bratling never had any problem waking up in a different place to where she went to sleep, and we never resorted to sticking her in the car, rather we put her in the pram and walked the streets, healthier for us, healthier for the environment. My brother in law added nearly 1000 miles to his car mileage, being dictated to by a particularly fretful baby..... don't get into that habit, or else you will find it near impossible to break. Soon it will become the norm rather than a treat and life will be hell when you have to get rid of the car, as he did....

I find draping her over my shoulder and patting her back in a heartbeat rhythm soothed Bratling best... also brought her wind up a treat....

Try to avoid letting them fall asleep at a feed, the sleep they get (as we all do) is useless as a rest, because the internal organs are busy digesting and don't slow down. A cat nap is OK, but try and save the main sleep for later. A comforter (dummy, binky, whatever) is useful then, for the sucking motion, but Bratling was discouraged from that (having seen far too many 4 & 5 year olds totally 'binky dependant' with malformed teeth) and stayed in the room with us until she was 7 months old.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 03:24 PM

Well, Liz, my professional opinion is that she probably would have been an easier baby if she'd had a proper name... :-)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: allie kiwi
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 05:31 PM

I guess my son will be hell on wheels when he's older. We refer to him affectionately as 'The Toad'. He bounces around the place, almost never still.

Haere Ra

Allie

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 05:40 PM

Very young infants are incapable of "manipulation". You have to have a sense of self before you seperate your"self" from the entity that is your caretaker. Until a child figures this out, all crying is need based only.

Now, a child of a year and some months, could be learning this, but maybe not as well. I would say that Moms should listen to the cry. Fearful cries are very different than tantrum cries, or completely fake ones (and when a kid is crying simply to manipulate, it is fake).

Tell your friend to listen to her Mommy instincts. That's what we have them for. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 06:18 PM

Ah, Dr. Mark, spot on, of course! As one who has always had dry, super-sensitive skin I can attest to the infuriating nighttime "flare-ups" brought on, a lot I am sure, by nothing else to focus on. I use glycerin soap with no perfumes and a good moisturising lotion also with no perfumes, etc.

There is a spray-on product I use, just before applying lotion. It is called NAPCA and is put out by a company called Twinlab. I find it at health food stores. Na-PCA, according to the label, is "the natural moisturizing factor found in human skin." I get the one which also has aloe vera in it. It really helps, esp. when we have a drought with only 7 per cent humidity in the air!

So, how is the baby doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 06:34 PM

'Very young infants are incapable of "manipulation". You have to have a sense of self before you seperate your"self" from the entity that is your caretaker. Until a child figures this out, all crying is need based only.'

Oh boy, you should have been around when my God-daughter was born... she learned from about 4 months how to get attention. She learned very early what buttons to press to get her way, and who she could do it with. She wasn't even 9 months old when she learned to vomit at will to manipulate her carers..... I love her dearly and had many hours of joy minding her from 3 months to 2 years, but she was a manipulative child from day 1. Her tactics didn't work with everyone though and she only did it to me once. When the attention she got wasn't what she expected (I left her to sit whilst I cleaned up the chair, floor, table and me first), she never did it again. It became such a habit with others though, that now she can't break it, and will still puke at will when she doesn't get her own way. And yes, they did all the tests to see if it was a food allergy, automatic reaction, reflex action or whatever.... it was pure will that did it. Having said that, she can be the most adorable child on earth, and there are times I'd swap her for Phoebe..... the story is reversed here, as is frequently the case. She's good as gold for the various sorts of minders and hell on earth with her parents.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: paddymac
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 06:51 PM

Our oldest one (now 30) had a terrible time about age two and wouldn't sleep at all, until he'd collapse from sheer exhaustion. My ex-mother-in-law solved the problem with an old Mississippi country remedey. Probably not very PC these days, but it sure worked. Fix a four ounce bottle with one ounce of whiskey, three tablespoons of sugar, and the rest water as warm as the little one will take it. He never got even half-way through before he zonked out. The worst of it was that all his sphincters seemed to relax at the same time, so we had to stand by with a fresh diaper close at hand. That was usually good for 6-8 hours of blessed sleep, and he would awaken as a delightful and happy wee person. My recollection is that we didn't need to resort to that "cure" very often before the problem was either cured or just went away. Our second one, born 12 weeks premie, never had the problem. They're all unique individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 06:56 PM

LOL, paddymac! When my neice was teething, my sister was out for dinner and couldn't get her quieted down. A "good ol' gal" waittress type came over and asked if she could take her for a few minutes to help. She did and the kid quieted right down. Her tip to my sister was a little creme de menthe rubbed on the gums soothed the pain and also helped the kid to relax a little, too. It really worked, but I don't think they had to do it but more than once or twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 02:18 AM

Gripe water used to contain a fair amount of alcohol until someone (who probably never had a screaming baby, if any) decided it wasn't good for the wee ones to be imbibing so much hooch and changed the recipe....

I understand the damage it can do to kidneys and liver still growing and forming, but if that's the case, why don't they ban alcohol altogether?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: alison
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 03:00 AM

Chris Greene's book "Toddler taming" is really good and full of helpful advice, and humour ... my favourite being "if your kid is driving you nuts - go to McDonalds... you'll see that yours is really an angel compared to the rest!!" (or something to that effect).....

he's not an American though... he's from Northern Ireland,(hence the funny accent... I'm allowed to say it.. I've got one too... *grin*) although he lives in Oz now....... he has a good book called "babies" too .... for those first few months.....


slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 03:47 AM

OK so I should have looked at the book I was recommending!!

Dr Mark - Bratling was a lovely baby, placid, sociable and easy. In fact, I had to take a photo of her crying because some people never believed she cried! It's only the last 3 years that it's gone downhill..... she's too much her mothers' daughter.

Celtic Soul - 'Mommy instincts' have to be translated first. Several times my 'mommy instinct' has been to beat the little darling senseless..... what it was actually telling me was 'it's time to get professional help with this, because otherwise it's the funny farm or prison'. Consequently, life is manageable. Not easier, just manageable. Is there a time limit on post natal depression? Sometimes it's really hard to translate the instinct.

Getting back to the original problem - maybe the toys, music thing is too much stimulation? I know that Phoebe Bratling will force herself to stay awake for hours if the external stimulus is attractive to her. Having said that, she slept all the way through a 'Boys of the Lough' concert at 2 months old and frequently through rowdy sessions until the age of 2 (when she got too mobile and voluble to control without riot gear), with no problem. Have they tried just sitting quietly in the room with her? Studies have shown that children who learn to sleep in a noisy environment have trouble in sleeping in a quiet one. I know it took me years to get over not sleeping with my sister (in the same room, not literally..... shame on you!) because she was a fidgeter and needed music on softly. Now it's the opposite way round, I sleep with a snorer and he frequently wakes me with the snoring.

White noise (radio tuned just off station, vacuum, washer/dryer or fridge humming in the background) is good, it's not complete silence, which is distressing enough or sudden noises which continually trigger the 'fight or flight/interest' reflexes. Again, having the room completely dark can also trigger the fight or flight reflex so a dim light can help.

I hope that all of them are getting some sleep.... one thing you must realise is that just because (if this IS the case) one parent goes out to work and the other stays at home looking after Junior, it is not the Godgiven right of the working parent to get all the sleep. A tired carer is more likely to misjudge feed temperatures, misjudge distances, be clumsier and mishandle baby, be crabbier and easier to provoke, harm the child deliberately or become a victim of post natal depression. You BOTH need to sleep, but it needs to be equal. You BOTH need to learn a routine and stick to it whereby one is on duty whilst the other takes time out for themselves to sleep, relax, get excercise/fresh air, get away from the situation and recharge. With more relaxed parents, the child should become more relaxed and easier to send to sleep too.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 07:23 AM

Another thing about the dry skin is not to bath in hot water and to pat dry only, not rub down. A dermatologist gave a seminar at a hospital where I worked and said that when we drag a towel over our skin to dry after a bath, we rub a lot of our own natural moisture away. He actually recommended air-dry, but I don't think he'd ever lived where it is humid!:-) And, the hotter the water, the more it will dry the skin out, too.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 09:46 AM

The Squeak penned: "'Mommy instincts' have to be translated first. Several times my 'mommy instinct' has been to beat the little darling senseless..... what it was actually telling me was 'it's time to get professional help with this, because otherwise it's the funny farm or prison'. Consequently, life is manageable. Not easier, just manageable. Is there a time limit on post natal depression? Sometimes it's really hard to translate the instinct."

I'd say that this is not a case of wrestling with Mommy instincts if it is post partum depression. Not all women suffer post partum. The instincts I think represent "Mommy Instincts" are those that are for the best of the child. When we say no to a child who wants to put his finger in the electrical socket, we are not being cruel, though it may appear that way to the child who feels as if you are denying it something it wants. When we say no to a child who is very afraid, and does not want to be left alone, that is another story. Again, the cries are different for "I want" and "I need". At least they were for mine.

Your previous story about the God-Daughter is interesting, though. I have never experienced (or read about for that matter) a child having self realization so young as to be able to manipulate at 3-4 months.

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: GUEST,Wyrd Sister
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 03:54 PM

Used to rock my babies to sleep. Still got the rocks.....

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 12:04 AM

...and at least when the kid sleeps with the parents, it tends to restrict the production of more of the little horrors...

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: MMario
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 12:54 AM

Hrothgar - never worked for my parents! 9 kids in 18 years and after the first few it was a d*amn rare night they didn't have at least ONE in with them.

CS - I too have known infants who at least appeared to be consciously manipulating people as early as three or four months - certainly different behaviour patterns for different people. But yes - the "I want" and "I need" cries have always seemed very different to me. Then there is the "I'm just generally pissed off and am going to make you suffer" cry...

Subject: RE: BS: Help: Way OT: Getting baby to sleep
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 02:28 PM

Of course 'Mommy instincts' are what's best for the child, but if your mind is not focused (for whatever reason; drugs, alcohol, post natal depression, psychological disorders, sleep deprivation and so on) then what you perceive as best for the child isn't always so.... I know in my heart that my daughter needs attention, but my head keeps telling me she has to learn to do things herself. Another bit of my head tells me that the best way to do this is if I make her do it herself, and another bit of my head says she would do it a lot quicker if I helped her along with a few choice words and a physical reminder..... Translating that particular 'mommy instinct' is very difficult.

Besides, how many times did your parents say 'we know what's best for you' and you knew perfectly well it wasn't? Sometimes it isn't. My parents thought staying at home to look after them was the best thing for me, they were very, VERY wrong.

LTS