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Fighting over Bo Diddly - 12/8 time?

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fogie 20 Jun 02 - 10:01 AM
greg stephens 20 Jun 02 - 10:20 AM
M.Ted 20 Jun 02 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 20 Jun 02 - 10:49 AM
little john cameron 20 Jun 02 - 11:23 AM
Pied Piper 20 Jun 02 - 11:46 AM
fat B****rd 20 Jun 02 - 11:48 AM
greg stephens 20 Jun 02 - 11:54 AM
Pied Piper 20 Jun 02 - 12:03 PM
greg stephens 20 Jun 02 - 12:36 PM
M.Ted 20 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Len 20 Jun 02 - 01:02 PM
pavane 20 Jun 02 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 20 Jun 02 - 01:58 PM
little john cameron 20 Jun 02 - 10:05 PM
fogie 21 Jun 02 - 04:18 AM
greg stephens 21 Jun 02 - 04:37 AM
greg stephens 21 Jun 02 - 04:48 AM
Pied Piper 22 Jun 02 - 10:53 AM
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Subject: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: fogie
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:01 AM

After a pleasant evening in our local with a couple of other musicians, as sometimes happens we started expounding our hobby horses on this and that musically. When there was just two of us left talking, my aquaintance started a conversation about how fascinated she was with linking Bo Diddly's rhythm with some African country's drum rhythms. All very reasonable until she quoted that his rhythm was in 12/8. I said that Bo's time signature was I thought 4/4, and the discussion got heated. I asked her to explain what exactly she meant by 12/8 and she wouldn't, and slated me in front of the bartender. I dont like bad feelings, and thought I'd air the debate to see if I've misunderstood something. All I can think of that has happened is that she's counted the syncopated beats within the 8 bars as 12 beats, or maybe I'm totally up the spout??


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:20 AM

Well what's going on here is that Bo Diddley, at a leisurely tempo, will play the rhythm with thefirst notee of each pair of quavers(eighth notes in American I believe) longer than the second: approximately twice as long in fact. So to notate this rhythm accurately, you probably should write it in 12/8. with each pair of notes as a crotchet-quaver (quarter-eighth) pair.Normally speaking peope would use 4/4 for convenience (maybe writing "swing rhythm" at the top, which means play the first note twice as long as the second). It is very intriguing, the Bo Diddley rhythm, isnt it? Embedded in much African music, the basis of the claves beat in Latin-American music, the calinda stick rhythm of the Caribbean, underlying the two=bar ending tags of English hornpipes, the way peopleknock on doors in England to indicate thatthe visitor is friendly: it gets around doesnt it


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:39 AM

Rock n'Roll (and blues, jazz, etc)is polyrhythmic, which means that there are overlaying rhythm patterns, each of which is strong enough to stand on its own--In jazz notation,in 4/4 time, each count is understood to be divided into triplets, so eight notes are played as a dotted eighth and a sixteen note--making it 12/8--you can have one instrument playing straight four(often the bass) with someone else playing a swing shuffle, based on the triplet feel--For what it is worth, the Bo Diddley beat appears in Turkish and Middle Eastern Music, and is called a Ciftitelli rhythm--commonly used for Turkish bellydancing--


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:49 AM

Bhangra musicians(Punjab, India) use the beat as well when playing their dohl drums. They call that beat "western" which perhaps implies that it is a recent importation, but I think it may be an old beat from the area that they have found fits well with western dance music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: little john cameron
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:23 AM

Ah often wondered aboot that,bit didnae know how tae ask the question.Ah aye caed it "Dum diddy umdum dum dum".Ye're richt aboot the door chappin tae.Thanks for exlanation.ljc


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:46 AM

What I think of as Bo Didly beat (and I use it on the Bodhran for some reels) is dum dee dum dee dum pause d dum dum. I usually only use the first dum dee dum dee dum. If you count 8 beats too the bar the under lying pattern is 123-123-12. I think this rhythm was used a lot by Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan in his qawali music. 12/8 it ain't. All the best PP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: fat B****rd
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:48 AM

Shave and a haircut 12 8


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 11:54 AM

12/8 it is,Pied Piper, if you play 1 longer than2, and 3 longer than 4 and so on. As does BoDiddley. just say Bo diddley bum bum(pause) bum bum. The "Diddley" is a triplet. 12/8, see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:03 PM

I don't realy see that that makes it 12/8. May be I'm thinking about the rong rythm. Could you write it in numbers please Greg.PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:36 PM

If you write 4/4 out in 8 quavers they fall into4 groups of 2: you could write them out like
/12/12/12/12/.
If you divide each main beat(ie each group of two quavers) into a triplet, the rhythm becomes
/123/123/123/123/ (verbally that would be diddley diddley diddley diddley). The way that would be notated would be12/8 (four groups of three in a 4-beat bar), which would save you having to write triplet signs over groups of notes. You normally wouldntbother, but if you want to notate swing rhythms (triplet based) accurately and unambiguously 12/8 does the job. It's surprisingly common to play in this swing rhythm, even if the ear doesnt always detect it.Michael Coleman playing a fast reel, for example, your ear will probably tell you he's playing the qquavers fairly evenly. In fact he's generating a huge drive by playing the firstnote of each pair twice as long as the second, ie he's in 12/8 time. But you'ld be being pedantic and time=wasting to write t out in 12/8, as you would be if you notated Bo Diddley beats or bodhran beats for reels in 12/8.For all normal usage 4/4 is perfectly satisfactory, and write a triplet in whenever there is actually a triplet of three notes played on one beat.
Sorry if this is longwinded and incomprehensible:I'd do better if I could play t you, or use musical notation. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 12:39 PM

PP--12/8 is a compound meter, four counts, each count broken down into triplets--the "Bo Diddley" phrase is actually eight counts, or two measures long--the thing to remember what I said above about the dotted eighth sixteenth, because if you play a "straight" three triplets over a solid four, it is a completely different Arabic and African rhythm, which is usually written as two measures of 6/8--


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: GUEST,Len
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:02 PM

All the above merely serves to demonstrate the obsession for analysis beloved of the European musical tradition. The (totally wonderful) Bo Diddley undoubtedly learnt by ear - he heard something he liked and used it and added to it. It was part of an aural tradition although I bet he didn't call it that. What you hear when you hear Bo Diddleys music is Soul, the heritage of a thousand years and more. Some people mistakenly think that they can buy into all this if they write it down in a European musical language. but you gotta hear it to feel it. The nuances of this music don't translate into cold symbols. Just dig it. And another thing: Bo didn't feel the need to write a 3 hour Rock Opera, he can say it all in 3 mins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:44 PM

I think Gilbert O'Sullivan's song Nothing Rhymed was writen/printed/scored in 12/8, for a comparison. Doesn't sound much like Bo Diddley

Anyone know a tune in 12/16? It has been claimed that William Kimber's concertina playing was accented in that way, but with no indication of what it might mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:58 PM

I suspect most of us have heard Bo Diddley, actually.No idea whether he could read music or not. Not very relevant really.Louis Armstrong played pretty well, considering he was a wonderful reader.And I know plenty of lousy musicians who cant read a note.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: little john cameron
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 10:05 PM

How is your father ,alright!!ljc


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: fogie
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 04:18 AM

I must admit I'm with pied piper on this, but thanks to Greg for actually expounding what he thinks. I too see it as 1 23 123 12, 1 23 123 12. and I concede that western notation cant get the swing thing very well,


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 04:37 AM

I think "western" notation is perfect for notating most rhythms, and certainly fine for this one.And 4/4 in straight 8 notes is perfect for this particular rhythm as played by Bo Diddley, as long as you recognise that the firstnote of a pair is played a little longer than the second at slower tempos.And 12/8 is fine if you want to be more precise. Same with writing out hornpipes: you could use 12/8, you could use 4/4 and dot the first noteof the pair,or you could just do what I do which is to use 4/4 with all notes written as quavers, and remember the rhythm you're aiming at. Musical notation is perfect as far as it goes, but it can only capture a small part of the music....style and sound, swing and heart, they arent so susceptible to dots on paper!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 04:48 AM

mnemonics for this and related rhythms: must be loads, we've already seen a few.Hows your father, alright. Hows your sister she might. Shave and a haircut two bits.Diddleiddle Idoe drop dead.Never clean the window with a softboiled egg. Once aboard the lugger and the girl is mine.A love for real not fade away. Bo Diddley bought him a diamond ring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fighting over Bo Diddly 12/8
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Jun 02 - 10:53 AM

Thanks for the info chaps. I've written some tunes in "12/8" but with the bar divided up into different combinations of 2 and 3 beat units. There are many possible patterns, one I've used a lot is 22323. All the best PP.


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