BS: What happens when you die?

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 08:35 AM

But where will it go????? ....into BS thread heaven???? or will it be reborn and talk to us from the otherside???

Sorry about that I've been cleaning the house and the cleaning products must have gone to my head!!!

cat

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 08:09 AM

Ha! Ha! Ha! This thread has now reached 100. Will it die?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 06:26 AM

Beneath this stone lies Elizabeth Dyas,
Always noisy - very pious.
She reached her three score years and ten,
And gave to the worms what she'd refused to the mem.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:01 PM

"Why, oh why, oh why, oh why..
Why, oh why, oh why?
Because, because, because, because...
Goodbye. goodbye, goodbye!"

Woody Guthrie

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 03:35 PM

That is probably the first philosophical question all right. Why IS there something instead of nothing?

The next question, then, is usually "and why can't the something that there clearly is...be more the way I WANT IT to be???"

And now what do I do about it?

And so it goes...religion, politics, war, fast food, art, science, agnosticism, and hamster races.

Let the Games commence!!! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM

solipsist? no, indeed!...I guess I compressed that thought too much in an effort to be brief. I quite agree that there is obvious causality outside myself, but the first part of the phrase was ".I FEEL the awe & poetry and emotion when I hope & plan & dream & love," ...and those, I feel, are internally caused.

Causality comes in 4 basic logical forms, with a couple of sub-categories, including one called "remote cause"...and it is THIS that I feel foolish speculating about...especially ultimate remote cause.

There is a paragraph in the writings of Martin Heidegger, in which he points out that the (logically)REALLY first philosophical question is "Why is there something instead of nothing?"....and notes that it is really not answerable...but that sure has not stopped others from trying!...(and usually with the assumptions and circular reasoning I referred to before.)

So, no I am not a solipist, but I do not need to assume that my higher emotions need metaphysical grounding....they just happen to be side effects of complex awareness.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 01:48 PM

BillD said,

I simply DO NOT NEED powers and causality outside myself to explain them!

Are you a solipsist, then?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:05 PM

Just to make a few things clear. There seems to be an assumption that people that do not believe in reincarnation or life after death are gross materialists; this is not true of me and most of the atheists I know. I am a musician, what I produce has no material existence yet is profoundly real for me, and I hope, for the people that listen. Only a fool would argue that emotions, thoughts, philosophies, sciences etc are material objects. But if I sing I have to use the material properties of the air, my lungs, and vocal chords to do it. All this is controlled by my brain, a material object. My thoughts can even be observed as electrical activity in my brain. Non of this means I can't be moved by suffering in others, laugh at a good joke or have mystical experiences. I just means I need a brain to do it. The computer you're using now is a material object but the programs it runs aren't. You can't run a program without a computer and you couldn't have Siddhrata Gutama, Joan of Arc or Blind Lemon Jeferson without brains. All the best PP

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 08:00 AM

Wolfgang - Don't get excited. I was just giving a brief few examples of how the skeptical mind of certain individuals may or may not work in a given situation, when it involves something they don't believe in. I've seen numerous examples of it. Scientists? I rarely encounter them. They are very elusive creatures, more so than ghosts even, I think... :-) (obviously, I'm not spending time in the right places)

Please...do give your scientific explanation of ghosts, by all means.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 07:08 AM

Ferrara: Have you read Ian's Stephenson's "Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations"? I know I've got his name right

How confident are you of that knowledge? You shouldn't be. Stevenson is the name. I have made the same correction in this old threade and you even have acknowledged the correction in that thread.

If even the correction of an undisputable detail doesn't reliably enter a mind how can anyone expect a change of opinion by arguments.

Take Little Hawk for instance who gives above a completely wrong account how the report of ghosts is explained in science. He doesn't know what the actual explanations are and I guess he doesn't care. I could try to correct his account but I doubt it would in any way change his recollection the next time this theme comes up.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM

A widow was feeling rather lonely so she asked a medium to help her contact her deceased husband. The medium manged to find his spirit quite easily and the widow asked him how things were. "Oh not too bad" her husband answered, "I get up in the morning have something to eat, then until noon I have sex with series of different females". "After Lunch I have a nap and then it's back to the sex games and odd snacks until evening when I have supper and snuggle into bed with several more mates". His widow was somewhat shocked and said "I didn't think heaven was like that !". "I'm not in heaven", said her husband, "I've been reincarnated as a rabbit in Australia!".

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 07:15 PM

Awright, Bill! :-D I knew I'd eventually succeed in explaining it...it's hard to describe a sunbeam in terms that someone else can necessarily relate to.

I don't actually think it matters what people call it...if they call it God, okay...if they call it something else, okay too.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Joe_F
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 06:48 PM

First, however, she waited for a few minutes to see if she was going to shrink any further: she felt a little nervous about this; "for it might end, you know," said Alice to herself, "in my going out altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be like then?" And she tried to fancy what the flame of a candle looks like after the candle is blown out, for she could not remember ever having seen such a thing.
-- Lewis Carroll
*
It as not hard to imagine some evil will throwing down the avalanche, or sending the lightning, or drawing the drowning man down to death. In fact, it was easier to imagine it than not to imagine it.
-- H. L. Mencken

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 06:29 PM

Well, at least we'll find out if death rides a white horse.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 06:07 PM

well, debating with my wife 'may' be a bit easier when I send it to West Chester, PA. and thence to the world, rather than interrupting her novel...*grin*...but with us, it is usually about how to look at things and express them, rather than basic attitudes...(and I have always been pleased that I managed to disagree with her mother without offending her...)

Little Hawk...I see at last what you are trying to get at, and it moves me emotionally to see how you find the religious imperative within the person, and judge by how one lives, rather than by what they subscribe to. I agree with most of those sentiments...I just feel no need to 'call' it God, or anything else...perhaps I simply have a defecit in the muse. (I never could write poetry to suit myself).

I do know that writing here helps me to clarify to myself what I believe and why...and to relate it to the feeling of others. I do know that the world would be a better place with a few clones of Little Hawk explaining thing to folk...(well, except for certain aspects of taste in music and humor...*grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Ferrara
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 05:19 PM

DonD ... You may be right.

Theories abound. That's why I always refer to my ideas as a "model," not "beliefs." They're one possible description of one part of a hypothetical cosmic elephant, and they work for my needs and my life. Except when I get grumpy and depressed and forget that there's another view of things than the one shown on the daily news....

Rita

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: DonD
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 04:59 PM

I wrote a long unbelieving screed yesterday and before I could send it my internet connection was lost -- so now I'm sure that my ISP is God, and a vengeful one at that.

But on the life after death issue: you turn off the radio or even pull out the plug and it keeps on playing. You disconnect an appliance and still get a shock. You cut off the chicken's head and it still runs around the yard.

The brain and body produce much more electric energy than is ever utilized or can even be explained. You die, but maybe some of that electric energy keeps on percolating. It can be sensed by loved ones, children, psychics, mediums for a while (indefinite length of time) and we have messages from the departed but they're only left-overs from this life, not part of the next one.

The chaos we're aware of is enough for me! Billions on billions of conflicting personalities roaming around in I don't care how many dimensions? Too much!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Ferrara
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 04:38 PM

Ah, Little Hawk, your last two posts have expressed much of what I have embraced as my underlying belief system, developed over about 50 years. Beautifully expressed and much clearer than I've ever gotten about it all.

In my teens, I was really roiled up over God and all that, partly because I had dated a Catholic guy who was convinced I was an apostate (my parents had me baptized Catholic) and was going to hell.

So I gave belief systems a bunch of thought and decided, first, that I refused to worship a God who was petty enough to punish people eternally for changing (or not changing) religions. Nor can I believe that such a God has sway over human affairs.

Then, I came to a rock-bottom set of things that I knew I did and could believe. Specifically: I don't know what's Out There, but I know that there's a set of ideas and feelings In Here that are the "best" part of me. I'll assume that I can be guided by that. If it's only my superego/conscience, or if there is a Being Out There and the In Here is part of it, the end result for me is the same as long as I'm here on earth. I'll feel better and act better if I pay attention to it.

Then got to college and read about Brahman/Atman (God Without, God Within) and felt like, well, other people have thought like this. Neat. And gradually have come to be guided by most of the ideas you just expressed including a possible "purpose" behind human suffering and trials.

All my models are based on, and related to, the Christian God of the Bible because that's what I grew up with. But I think it's only one aspect of the "elephant," whatever the elephant may be....

BTW, my mom was very involved with prayer and meditation groups etc. Some of her friends asked her whether she minded that her son-in-law (Bill D) was an atheist/ agnostic. She said, "Not in the least. He lives it [i.e. is a caring, decent person]. Why should I care what he believes?"

Me too. Except when he gets on his soapbox in our kitchen while I'm trying to read a novel.... :-D

Rita

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 01:55 PM

Maybe one more thing I should add. Why do all the other lesser "lower" aspects of us exist? The qualities that are less than the highest?

Because they provide a field of context in which the highest can be seen for what it is. Because that provides us with a chance to USE our potential, adventure, discover, develop, and express it...to stretch our physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual muscles and actually DO something.

Without challenges to rise to, we would do NOTHING...we would just BE. Endlessly. Nothing more would happen. The Universe as we know it, and the entire game of Life would simply STOP.

There would be an endless unexpressed potential, like the infinitessimally small dimensionless point before what scientists call the "Big Bang" and some religionists call "Let There Be Light".

It's much more interesting to start expressing all of that and try out its every possibility, but that does entail putting up with imperfection, pain, discomfort, and so on...or at least the appearance of such.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 01:24 PM

Rita - VERY good post!

Bill - Very good posts as well! I'd like to respond to just one thing you said:

"I FEEL the awe & poetry and emotion when I hope & plan & dream & love, but I simply DO NOT NEED powers and causality outside myself to explain them!

Precisely! What I call "God" is not outside of you! It is the highest aspect of what is and always will be INSIDE you. That applies to everyone else too. It's inside everything. It is your and my and everyone's highest intelligence, keenest perception, deepest longing, strongest will, greatest tenacity, most abiding loyalty, and most heartfelt love. It is the very best that you are. Your ultimate potential.

So, to develop a relationship with "God" is simply to tap into the very finest and best that you are and then APPLY it through action in the World.

How does a person do that? By conducting himself in an intelligent, well reasoned, and healthful manner. By calming his mind and body, because a relaxed mind and body are stronger and more capable than a mind and body under unnecessary stress. By drawing on the highest idealism and sense of purpose he is capable of. By giving up fear and becoming courageous!

Most people are caught up in all kinds of petty surface distraction, stress, and reaction...and in massive and almost constant FEAR...and they are far from what they could be, because of it. That is to say, in other terms, they are far from enlightenment, far from expressing and embodying LOVE.

To recognize in yourself the very finest that life has to offer is to see God revealed. If you can also see in others their very finest quality (even if they can't see it), and truly LOVE them for it...THEN, my friend, you have become what is termed "a Master" in the spiritual traditions.

It ain't outside you, it's within. This is a teaching found in many religions, but it is far larger than any religion ever will be, and it doesn't NEED religions. It just needs to be applied.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 08:53 PM

gee...I have had funeral food twice in the last 3 weeks... In both cases right after attending services and hearing assurances that the departed was in Heaven, waiting. I, of course, said nothing at any point to contradict those who were comforted by the thought.

Why do I make my points in here?..Well, the question was asked.

oh...I missed a point in my response to Little Hawk...he said
" Why is it that very well educated and thoroughly rational scientists...like Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin and Aurobindo Ghose...had no trouble believing in both God AND logic? In both God AND evolution? In both God AND physics? In both God AND science? In both material existence AND spiritual existence?"

...and the answer is that they had something in their lives and thoughts that inclined them to believe..*shrug*....and of course, the 'reply', as distinguished from the 'answer', is that I can point to many equally distinguished, well educated, rational scientists who cannot believe those things.

Calling on witnesses for YOUR side proves nothing when the entire dispute is based on hypothesis!...The word is 'belief'...and if you say you have 'seen' it or 'know' it, I ask why I and others cannot see it, and why this knowlege is not universal.

I'm sorry, folks, but I need a bit more than your confidence and assurance ..*smile*...and if in the end, YOU are right, well, I shall be MOST peeved that it was made so difficult for ALL to see...

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: bflat
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 07:53 PM

What happens you ask? For the dead, nothing at all, we are like every other organism;it is over. For the living, they are having funeral food.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 04:04 PM

"Bill D - Man, I've got some books here you just gotta read..."....I have read MANY books..what I see is the same arguments and positions put forth in different guises.."I **felt/saw/heard** something, so don't tell me it ain't true" or "Some very important and intelligent people have said it's ok with them" (Einstein, etc.)

"But Bill, don't you see you are doing the same thing that you feel the 'believers' are doing: you too are saying what you believe, but in your case you don't give any evidence for your position. Does that mean that you have no explanation for the things I first mentioned, things like love and hate and plans and dreams?"

....sorry, I am not doing the same thing..*smile*...I am not asserting anything, I am resisting assertions that do not convince me..There is a principle in argument that "The burden of proof is on the asserter"

evidence for my position often falls into the category of showing how certain positions I disagree with uses circular and erroneous logic and starts with unwarrented assumptions. One example....just because you had an experience, that is 'felt' or 'saw' something does not always prove it was not engendered by your own mind, as in a dream. If a VERY vivid experience cannot be repeated, or seen by others, there is good reason for others to doubt its reality. (Note, I am NOT claiming this DISproves it, only that your evidence is not compelling)

as to having explanations for things like hopes & plans & dreams...(as well as stars & ghosts and clarivoyance & love...etc.)...sure, I can sort of explain them in general, but you won't see much poetry or awe in my explanations..*smile*...I FEEL the awe & poetry and emotion when I hope & plan & dream & love, but I simply DO NOT NEED powers and causality outside myself to explain them! As I said WAY back up there, our minds are VERY complex things, and we are far from knowing exactly how they work---though some recent work shows there are some quite extraordinary processes for taking input, storing it, rearranging it, and giving it back in ways we did not exactly expect!

So....as long time reader of science-fiction who would dearly LOVE to see some fantastic things PROVEN, but not just 'believed' on emotional grounds, I remain, a sceptic....one who is not convinced, and who will require some evidence a bit beyond what seems to convince those who are programmed to 'like' the idea of Gods, Ghosts, and immortality.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Ferrara
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 03:35 AM

In an early post to the thread, misophist wrote, "Whenever a reported case of reincarnation is properly investigated, it falls apart." I don't believe you have researched this properly.... Have you read Ian's Stephenson's "Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations"? I know I've got his name right, not sure about the book title, it was written before 1964 though. He was head of the neuropsychiatry dept at UVA -- again, I'm only 90% sure of the department. He decided to try to verify some claimed instances of reincarnation, spent quite a bit of time in India among other things.

There were a number of cases that did NOT "fall apart," most notably the case of Shanti Devi, who claimed to be a specific woman in another province, and in her early childhood spoke the language of that province instead of the language of the province where she was born. She was taken to the woman's home and recognized various members of the family, etc. It was pretty famous.

This doesn't "prove" reincarnation. It does prove you haven't done your homework.... Although evidence is not proof, there is some impressive evidence that has been carefully researched and has not fallen apart. What it's evidence of, is another question. Stephenson's book addresses several possible explanations.

Sorry, misophist, I guess your comment pushed one of my "gotta mouth off now" buttons....

Little John, what a magnificent poem by Holland. I love it. Gervase, too, thanks for the poems.

Little Hawk, I'm still laughing from your recent list of things that happen when you're dead.... as you can see, I'm enjoying this thread.

Well you can see that Bill D and I have agreed to disagree on this subject. I don't know what happens, and I don't think it's knowable, but I give it about an 80 percent probability that Something happens.

A lot of people in my family seem to be at least a wee bit psychic, at least we "think" we are. I noticed in the 60's that people who believe they have psychic experiences, also often believe they receive communications from people who have died.

Done it myself. My sister told me, and her best friend, that we should stop crying because she was fine and surrounded by love, glory, et cetera. Lynn and I compared notes the next morning. The words Lynn heard Jan say were phrased in Christian terminology. What I heard her say, on the other hand, was "I ought to kick your butt. You of all people should know I'm not gone and you shouldn't be grieving like that. Here. I'll show you what it's like." Then it seemed that I saw the sky full of stars and golden light, and that she somehow filled me with golden sparkles, starting at my feet and moving up through my body until the golden light filled me. There wasn't any room for grief.

A lot of the hurt went away. Maybe that kind of experiences are an evolutionary trait to help people keep going after losing a loved one, who knows? Me, I think it was my sister.

But I still don't think that "what happens after death" is that we're surrounded by golden sparkles. I suspect it's like the elephant as perceived by the blind men. Is it a fan? Or a rope? Or a tree? Or a snake? Or a wall? No, it's an elephant, but I believe we don't have a perspective where we can "get" the concept of this particular elephant.

That's my 2 cents worth and a whole bunch more, am enjoying the thread and enjoyed writing this. Not trying to convince anyone.

I don't need to know the "truth" about the matter, I just need a model that seems right to me. This model doesn't inspire me to convert people or to bang them over the head for not agreeing with it, so I think it's just fine....

Rita

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:41 PM

Oh, and you have a good laugh at the expense of all the people who think you're dead!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:36 PM

That explains my gardening problems, Bert.

Here are some other things that happen when you die:

Your creditors get royally screwed. Your family goes crazy trying to deal with the "arrangements", not to mention PAY for them! Time Magazine continues sending you threatening letters about your overdue account. Credit card companies continue trying to sign you up. Your answering service continues annoying people who want to talk to YOU. Your enemies are at a loss, because they don't have you to focus on anymore. People say a bunch of wonderful stuff about you, and realize how great you really were after all. You stop refreshing old Bill Shatner threads on Mudcat.

Well, those are a few...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:26 PM

Actually, we all turn into plastic flower seeds!!!

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:14 PM

Justa - Awww, that's easy... They explain ghosts by:

1. Ridiculing other people's experiences and firsthand accounts, no matter who those people are.

2. Denying that such a thing could ever really happening.

3. Ignoring all accounts which do not fit their own view, and refusing to read any books about the subject which do not debunk it.

4. If, like my father, they actually encounter a ghost in no uncertain terms they... a) have a nervous breakdown and later deny that it ever happened at all. b) try to forget about it as soon as possible, and get back to "REAL" things, like making money (my father's solution). c) experience a dramatic conversion to a more open state of mind, and broaden their horizons a bit.

One can always hope that (c) may occur...but don't count on it. Faith can be a very powerful thing! The faith of most materialists in their reductionist view of life is almost unshakable.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:38 PM

One of 2 things.

Either there's nothing in which case you won't know about it..
...or there's something and you will.



But if there's nothing...then how do you explain ghosts?

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:28 PM

But Bill, don't you see you are doing the same thing that you feel the 'believers' are doing: you too are saying what you believe, but in your case you don't give any evidence for your position. Does that mean that you have no explanation for the things I first mentioned, things like love and hate and plans and dreams? If you address those topics while keeping the materialistic, only-what-you-see-and-touch-is-real bias, you run into diffculties real fast. I believe (there's that word again!) that if you have ever been in love - not infatuation or visceral lust- you can't explain what you feel/felt.

Frankly, I think it takes a lot more faith to believe in ONLY a material world- I think we can all confirm that in the natural course of events that things break down, they do not build up. A chrome auto wheel cover breaks down, rusts and eventually disintegrates into a rust-colored spot on the road- it does NOT start growing legs or wheels, either one; it does not gain MORE integrity. Takes a lot of faith to believe that it might.

However, if one concedes that there might be more to a human being than a physical shell, then yes, I think it's possible to believe that the internal or permeating part of the person may continue life.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 08:08 PM

Bill D - Man, I've got some books here you just gotta read... :-) (most of them are not what you would call "Christian") Why is it that very well educated and thoroughly rational scientists...like Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin and Aurobindo Ghose...had no trouble believing in both God AND logic? In both God AND evolution? In both God AND physics? In both God AND science? In both material existence AND spiritual existence?

Ask yourself that, Bill. Exclaim in wonder at the ignorance and credulity of such benighted and ignorant fellows! :-) Too bad you could not have shown them the error of their ways...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 08:00 PM

If your'e good, you go to heaven.if your'e bad, you go to hull.john

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:50 PM

It would be, wouldn't it? ;~)

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: khandu
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:48 PM

Ah, Tweed, that is heavenly!

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Tweed
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:44 PM

A good thread with loads of thoughts. I'm convinced that we will all go to Kentucky where the sun is always just starting to come over the ridge and the mist still lays in the hollers. Where the streams run fresh and clean and corn liquor is always free and a there's a spotted dog that lives under the cabin porch to keep an eye on things while you're out catching your limit of perch and small mouths.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:35 PM

hmmmm..thing is, I do care....a lot! Since I know you are an honest, serious member of a group with a long history of suscribing to a complex theology, I am not totally sure how to take the comment Alex....I hope you are just crediting me with honest concern...

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:22 PM

Thanks for caring, Bill D.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:20 PM

I am awed by the convoluted logic, unwarrented assumptions and baseless premises employed by those who decide to believe before they investigate just what is IS they are accepting!

I see phrases like "seemed to become aware that there may be a life after death" and I cringe! If you phrase that differently ..."developed a belief in life after death",... it loses much of its force. And appeals to "people I admire most and are the most holy" are practically scary!

We humans evolved over millions of years, and as we became more aware of our own thought processes and were ABLE to conjecture about the "whys' instead of just the "wheres" and "whats", it is entirely reasonable that we speculated about death and wished we didn't have to die.....and invented stories about "might bes"......(a Google search on William of Occam and "Occam's Razor" could help you see a safer way to approach it all, but is not NEARLY as much fun as just wallowing in the wonderful stories and embroidered beliefs we creative humans have surrounded ourselves with)

As to 'experiences' of seeing apparitions, ghosts, etc. and having visions of things we can't explain...well, why decide on the LEAST provable explanations????? ....perhaps because "contact with Aunt Sadie" or "talking with God" is more interesting than "unconcious processes in my own mind using symbols, memories and random connections".....Under hypnosis, people can be convinced of MANY things that are not 'true'....why do we assume that strong, clear 'visions' must be 'real' in the scientific sense of the word?

We know that witnesses to a crime sometimes remember things incorrectly and 'identify' innocent people. Their minds simply draw upon memories and re-arrange them in order to satisfy the need to have an answer.

Do I think all this will change anyone's mind? Nope...just always hoping...

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:27 PM

That's their problem.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Mickey191
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:24 PM

And the bills keep coming.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:59 PM

What happens when you die? Your relatives get all your stuff.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: GUEST,Mickey 191
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:58 PM

Little John Cameron, That is my favorite poem on death. Thanks. There is another with death being analogus (SP?) with a boat. The people on shore are sorry to see it go, yet on the other shore, people are excited saying "She's Coming!" Anyone know this poem?

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:30 PM

And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on, I'll sing on
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing on.
And when from death I'm free, I'll sing and joyful be
Throughout eternity I'll sing on, I'll sing on,
Throughout eternity I'll sing on!

(Last verse of the song, Wondrous Love)

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:48 PM

Pied Piper - Interesting essay on the development of the agrarian societies. I concur with your analysis. It is possible to farm in a way which does not exhaust the land, but people are seldom disciplined or responsible enough to do that...they usually simply exploit what's there until it's totally exhausted and then move on. There are getting to be very few places left to move on to now...

North Africa, the Middle East, and the Mediterranean world were once forested. It was all cut down, and much of it is desert now. Most of the great original North American forests are gone too. This is due to people's tragic inability to look beyond the end of their noses...and to the agrarian lifestyle. Hunter gatherers do not cut down forests.

The North American Indians, by the way...many of them believed in reincarnation...and they were mostly hunter-gatherers...so I do not believe it is a concept necessarily tied to farming societies by any means.

A thing may occur to people sometimes, not because of this cultural factor or that cultural factor, but simply because it is true! Now there's a disturbing possibility, eh? :-)

Moving on...here's what happens when you die:

"Okay, it's a normal day. You get up, yawn, stretch, try out all four legs and do some grooming. Check out the water bottle. Mmmm, that's good! Have a few seeds. Yummy. Okay, time for some exercise...shall I chew on the bars...or run on the exercise wheel? Hmmmm. Let's go for the wheel! Hop on the exercise wheel, and start running lickety-split...round and round and round and round! Faster and faster! Round and round and round! Faster still! Round and round! Gonna break the sound barrier! Round and ...URK!!!"

(heart attack!)

(hamster falls off wheel and does a couple of rolls, twitches, and expires...)

"Zowie! I'm in hamster heaven! I don't believe it...THERE ARE NO CAGES HERE!!! Well, who'd-a thunk it? I think I'll just hang out for a bit while I decide on my next Earthly life...shall I be a hamster again? Or should I really go for the gusto and become...a CHIPMUNK! Or a gray squirrel? Or...? The possibilities are endless."

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:07 AM

Hi Ebbie. What I was referring to when I used the term "forced" was that the adoption of agriculture did not make most peoples lives easier; quite the opposite, the archaeological record shows that pre-farming hunters and gatherers were much better of in diet, life expectancy, and leisure time. I think humans were "forced" to take up farming in response to population pressure. Agriculture does generate more calories per acre than hunting and gathering. This allows more people to subsist on a smaller area thus minimising conflict with other groups. Once the process gets started the inbuilt tendency of farmers to produce large numbers of children, leads to greater population increase and intensification of production to feed them. If the process continues intensification leads to environmental stress and ultimately collapse; people starve. To avoid this the population must migrate to new areas and start the whole process again. That's why farming is so ubiquitous and hunting and gathering remains only in areas of minimal agricultural potential. Sorry about the essay. All the best PP.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: gnu
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:46 AM

Reincarnation ? I hope not. With my luck, I'll come back as an alcoholic woodpecker.

Minds me of my great uncle Matthah. My dad and uncle took him fishing trout when he was 75. The trip was 8 km down the East Branch to the tongue, 8 km up the West Branch to the road, and 4 km back to the car. When they got home, well after dark, they asked Matthah what he thought of the trip. He replied, "When I get to the Pearly Gates, I'm going to ask St. Peter one thing : if I can come back when you two are 75 and take you on the same damn trip you took me today !!"

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:44 PM

Pied Piper - It's always possible to look at something beautiful, like a human life, an animal, or a flower, and see nothing there but a meaningless, worthless piece of shit....or an opportunity to make money.

People, as you advise, are entirely capable of believing anything...or being brainwashed into believing anything.

That fact can just as well be used to explain atheism as to explain spiritual beliefs...it just depends on your fundamental attitude and your built-in prejudices, that's all.

Instead of looking on a difficult life situation as "punishment" (which I certainly do NOT), why not look upon it as a challenge and an opportunity? Some of the most creative people in the world have risen out of very difficult circumstances.

Your analysis of reincarnation errs in that it is based on totally negative thinking.

The early Christian church suppressed all teachings regarding reincarnation, and edited them out of some of the early writhings, precisely because they figured that the Christian church would not be able to terrorize and control the public if they thought they had "another chance" beyond this life...instead of just one stark choice between a very demanding heaven, and a very probable hell...with only the church to SAVE them!

Your disapproval of that church's behaviour is justified. Your objection to the theory of reincarnation is not.

I am as much a believer in social justice as you are, and I agree that most of the people in this world have gotten the short end of the stick. That is because the world is dominated by greed for money instead of concern for equality.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Grab
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:03 PM

"Then t'worms'll come an' eat thee up (eat thee up)
On Ilkley Moor bah tat..." ;-)

No-one knows, no-one CAN know, and anyone who says otherwise is lying through their teeth. All you can say is "I hope it'll be this" or "I hope it won't be that". Religions may come up with arguments for or against particular ideas, but they're all just finding excuses for what they believe.

Which is why it's called "the last great adventure".

My only worry is Rhodes's - "So much to do, so little time". Don't waste it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:14 PM

PP, I don't quite follow the analogy of being 'forced' to farm. (A better one, I think, is the 9 to 5 regimen.)Farming, to me, is an act of faith with an immediate reward- never mind the hereafter.

And besides, as long as we're on the subject of the afterlife and the pie in the sky concept, I don't for a moment believe that we're all going to live in bliss and playing music all day long. Far more likely, I think, is that we will each account for the successes and failures of each mission, before deciding whether to try another jaunt.

I wrote a story once that I called 'Reunion' and it revolves around the concept that each one coming back to headquarters sees quite clearly the success or mess of the life s/he/it lived and in some instances has to "take it up in committee" in order to understand a particular failure.

Personally I don't want ever to live cheek to jowl with unreconstructed hitlers, mansons, dahmers- but yes, if each of those monsters' essences acknowledges the failures, I can believe that they are every bit as 'worthy' as I, with my smaller-scale and less visible failures.

Subject: RE: BS: What happens when you die?
From: DonD
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 01:09 PM

There'll be pie in the sky when you die -- it's a lie.