Hugill/Dana's missing shanties

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

Rendition of "Sintali"

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 10:00 PM

Regarding identifying other attested renditions of "Tally I O", I don't think this has been discussed. (?)

It's an example that has been right under our noses: a chanty in Abrahams' _Deep the Water_ titled "Sintali."

The whalemen of Barouallie had it in the 1960s. The singers said that it was a song about a fisherman, Sintali, who wanted to catch fish to feed his family but had no bait. He cut off parts of his body for bait, including his penis. "We don't know it is true, but we hear so from our parents' time."

Abrahams gives a score and text transcription. (I will post a rendition, soon, to give an idea of how it fits together). First verse is:

Oh, Sintali, Sintali, a poor fisherman,
    Sintali, I-yah [I hear], you know
Oh, Sintali, Sintali, who went out to sea,
    Oh, Sintali, I-yah, you know

The lines continue in typical ad-libbed fashion, about the great fisherman, couldn't get bait, what he uses as bait ("free leg", "penis", "his body", "own head").

"Sintali" clearly maps onto "sing tally" of other versions.
Abrahams had glossed "I-yah" as "I hear," though I'm not so sure about that.

From one side, we might speculate that "tally hi ho" (etc) was heard by these people as a mondegreen of sorts, which they turned into a name phrase...and then wove a narrative. From another side, however, this could be the original theme, which didn't scan for listeners from other cultures. It would explain why the "Tally i o" part was (i.e. in James Wright's rendition) sometimes in the *solo* part — in other words, it wasn't nonsense syllables. It might explain how (in Wright's words) "Tally-i-o was a jolly old soul," i.e. because it is someone's name.

The other evidence on this song so far suggests it may be from the Caribbean region. So just as this isn't necessarily the original because it is sung by Caribbean-based singers, nor would one expect them to misinterpret something from "their" region.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:10 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:18 PM

Re: Editions of Dana

I remember there was a discussion of this somewhere, but it is hard to find (lots of talk of Dana in the various chanty-related threads). I remember some discussion of the different versions of Dana. Actually I think It was because we were talking about "Grog Time of Day" being there in one edition but not in another.

What I really don't remember is whether we/anyone had discussed "Tally high ho! you know" -- and the fact that it is given as a title in Dana's 1869 edition, but it did not appear in 1840s editions. (*Actually, I don't have the original 1840 at hand, but I see it is not there in 1842 and 1846 editions).

The 1869 is the "New Edition", "With subsequent matter by the author."

Would anyone care to offer a theory as to why "Tally" was added in the New Edition? I suppose the easiest explanation is that Dana later remembered this song having been sung.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Charles Biada
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:11 AM

This is baseless speculation, but "Jack Crosstree" sounds like it could possibly be a punnish variant (or distant relative) of "Hanging Johnny." Perhaps even a precursor to its well-known form stemming from the proverbial Jack Ketch?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Jeff Keller
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM

I'm puzzled by the speculation on "Cheerly, Men":
Hugill explicitly identifies it as the song "Cheerily, Man" in _Shanties from the Seven Seas_ (p. 234 of my paperback edition).
--Jeff

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:40 AM

Presumably he got it from Alpheus H. Verrill's "The Real Story of the Whaler" (1916).

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:53 AM

Slightly off topic; as I just finished reading the Mystic Seaport publication of F. P. Harlow's "Chanteying Aboard American Ships", and noted that he too commented about those "not fit to print". He does however quote:
"My father's a hedger and ditcher,
My mother does nothing but spin,
While I hunt whales for a living.
Good Lord how the money comes in."

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Q, I sure appreciate all of this original source material on "Cheerily". Lots of possibilities.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM

Cheerily, other:

John Wilson, 1800-1849

The skies are shining cheerily, cheerily,
Ho-ro, Mhari dhu, turn ye to me;
The seamew is moaning drearly, drearily,
Ho-ro, Mhari dhu, turn ye to me.
...........

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM

Cheerily appears in this minstrel song, 1847:
Negro Fisherman
Ethiopian Serenaders
First lines-

Lightly our boat flies ober the sea,
Pull away merrily, sing cheerily,
Dinah is certainly waiting for me,
...........etc.

Also called The Darkey's Boat Song, sung by Murphy et al. Minstrels, 1853; slightly changed words.

In Levy Collection

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

Gibb, I wanted to respond to your perceptive comments. I think that the distinction you make between performance and historical texts (my words) with regard to shanties is very important. As you say, one probably doesn't get very far just trying to perform historical texts! I think the performance of a shanty today is in a way the handing on of a live tradition, if not of the actual working situation, at least of the singing of the song. This takes a lively shantyman with a quick imagination. One doesn't have to remember all of the verses in historical order, much less perform them!

On the other hand to try to establish the historical datability of certain texts and and to understand what they tell us about their own times is something else, and also well worth the effort.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:46 PM

'Cheerily', 'cheerly', show up often in speech of the mid-19th C.; they seem to have been a popular expression of the times.

One song is "Pull Away Cheerily, The Gold Diggers Song,", 1845+, two versions, Henry Russell and Harry Lee Carter; English stage. The lyrics and midi (Russell) are at pdmusic.org.

I have posted this song in a separate thread because it may not be the inspiration for the chantey.


A children's song begins,
Pull away cheerily, work with a will!
Day after day every task should be done!
Idleness bringeth ...etc., etc.
(An unlikely possibility)

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:33 AM

Lighter, thanks for checking out Dana's journals. So the question remains, where did Hugill come up with these three songs that he attributes to Dana? They are: "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury". He may have gotten the reference to "Cheer Up, Sam" from Whall (this note in the 4th edition of W.B. Whall's SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (1920). It is on page two of that edition as an endnote following the song "Shenandoah". Whall says:

"This was not the only "song," by any means, which was used as a shanty. Dana told us long ago that one of the shanties used in his day was -

                         "Cheer up, Sam,
                         Don't let your spirits go down," etc.

which was made familiar to by the old Christy Minstrels.") And then the question is where did Whall get this?

And as far as identifying the other shanties that are mentioned by Dana, there is "Cheerly Men", "Round the Corner" and maybe "Tally Hi Ho". So what's "lost" and what's "found" and who's on third?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM

Hi Charley,
No that was the Last Exit "ON", not "IN", a dive in Seattle. John Townley & I started The Press Gang on the East Coast ca. '81. Among other venues we did some chanteying on board the 3-masted Schooner "Alexandria", nee "Lindo", when I was Mate.
Best,
Geo

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:28 PM

Shipcmo-

Welcome aboard from me as well. So you were part of the Press Gang; is that the Press Gang that Ken Lardner was connected with?

And were you really in the Last Exit bar on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn or some other venue in Brooklyn with a similar name? My niece and her husband run that bar!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:37 PM

Well, we had authentic, working bowlines for the spritsail, so the only shanty was "haul on the bowline", and that was only when tacking. When we left London we were serenaded with "Loath to Depart". I played "Edystone Light" on my concertina as we passed.
As Archy would say, "Yours for Rum Riot"
Geo

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM

Welcome aboard, Cap'n. We need more sea dogs on this thread, and your nautical pedigree is impeccable.

Did your crew sing shanties on _Godpseed_ or were you too $#@#$&%authentic to allow 'em? If they did, which ones?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

Well now, I just came upon Mudcat! My only claim to knowledgein this subject (sea songs & shanties), is that I once was a part of the performing group "The Press Gang", and, I was Captain of the 16th cent reproduction "Godspeed" on her voyage from England to the US (among other vessels).
Now, as to "lost chanties'; one evening at the Last Exit On Brooklyn, as I was in my cups, a friend who had been on stage recognized me in the audience. He called me up and requested a tune, so I responded. Afterward, a young lass came over to me and wanted to know where I had "got" those verses; she had never heard them before. The truth was, I made them up as I went along.
Cheers,
Geo
p.s. In my day, I would comment that sailor's voices had been ruined by rotgut whiskey and rotten tobacco, and I had spared no effort to achieve authenticity.
G

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:35 AM

Nice work again, Gibb! I completely agree with your take on present-day shanty singing.

Hugill is absolutely the best single authority for words and music. But he conflates his texts - partly to get the book published at all, partly because, as he frankly tells us, he always sang the songs from memory and seems never to have written them down while he was a shantyman himself. I'm often struck by how far superior Hugill's versions are to those recalled by Doerflinger's shantymen and others.

Hugill's versions, except when he indicates otherwise, are therefore partly as he remembers them (which includes minor forgetting and adding), partly extended by the inclusion of as many published stanzas as he could find (and he may have tweaked these slightly), and in a case like "Boney," partly arranged in the most rational order.

An unusually creative guy like Hugill must have invented any number of his own verses while at sea. There's no way of knowing how many of his own improvisations appear in his texts: possibly many, possibly none. There's no reason to assume either that, decades later, he could (or felt any need to) distinguish his own verses from any others. As a genuine shantyman, anything he may have sung was "authentic." But from looking at Hugill's work alone, we can't know what was likely to have been sung in the mid 19th C., for example.

I'm often struck by how far superior Hugill's versions are to those recalled by Doerflinger's shantymen and others.


More opinions:

Except for the nature of the tunes, actual shanty singing wasn't nearly as compelling as folkies think. The shantyman's indispensible talents were a strong voice, a good repertoire of songs, either a good number of verses or the ready ability to improvise, and more or less the ability to carry a tune.

Like people today, many sailors had poor voices or were tone-deaf: that wouldn't keep them from chorusing. We know that except for black Caribbeans, sailors almost never sang shanties in harmony. Acoustics on shipboard, in the open air, with all sorts of ambient noise, were poor. (Nowadays we think the ambient creakings and clankings are romantic.) Furthermore, unless there were a good many people on shore listening (not uncommon), the shanty singers had no real incentive to "sound good." They were doing heavy work, and the shanty's sole purpose was to help do it more efficiently: one reason why bawdy and satirical verses were so popular when nobody else could hear them. That's what Huntington meant when he said that sailors didn't think of shanties "as music." They had little reason to record them in logs and journals because they were so easy to remember, so undignified in their lyrics, so dependent on improvisation and migrating verses, and so unlike socially valued music.

None of the above is meant to trash shanties or modern shanty singers. I'm simply trying to imagine real shanties as they existed in a world rather different from our own.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 09:45 AM

Gibb-

Thanks for chiming in.

Frank Bullen, an old shantyman, who was finally persuaded by friends to publish a book on the subject, SONGS OF SEA LABOUR, © 1914, was emphatic that only the first verse, and maybe the second, and the chorus were regular for any particular song. And that is why in his book he only provided the basic lyrics for some 40 shanties. The extraordinary value of the book though is the musical notation provided by his friend W. F. Arnold.

One still wishes he had included all the other verses he knew, or at least had donated them to a museum or library. Maybe he did! Anyone checked in the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich lately? It is a treasure chest of such stuff, and descriptions of their archives are now available on-line.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:46 PM

The chanty's identity lies in the chorus and, perhaps, a melody hook (or general melodic contour). HIP HOP HURRAY, HO, HEY! The rest is expendable. However, the first line or lines ("regulation" lines, in Hugill's parlance) are often consistent because they clue in the chorus on what chanty is being sung so they can come in correctly the first time.

My take is like this
Tiddy I O

I mean c'mon -- Chanties minus working context equals almost pure textual emphasis. (Though you do find people trying to groove to the meager beats, whereas they'd do better at a dance club.) In a "performance," if someone is just going to repeat the same ol' words from a record/book/folkie every time for the entire song...yawn. No wonder why the "younger generation" doesn't give a toot: nothing new being said, no contemporary relevance. The only way they can get into it is through pyrate gimmicks, or if by chance they fall into a local maritime program, or if they are goody-two shoes that like to impress their folkie grandparents.

On the other hand, it is of the greatest importance for writers to have collected the many verse lyrics of chanties they heard, not because they are a prescription for performance, but because they show the *kinds* of lyrics being sung and provide so many textual *clues* to what/when/where was going on.

Sorry to drift away...

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:36 PM

I've examined the index of Dana's "Journals" for titles and first lines, plus entries on "songs," "music," and "singing," and skimmed all three volumes without finding a mention of the songs Hugill attributes to Dana.

The journals weren't published till 1968, which makes it extremely unlikely that Hugill had any access to them whuile he was writing his own book, published in 1961.

The journals, by the way, do not cover the years 1834-36.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Barbara
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

First, I'm not a scholar like so many of you in this discussion, so this may be a really dumb question. Reading through your remarks has made me wonder if the "Cheerily Men" one could have any relation to the 19th century whaling song "Bonny Ship the Diamond" whose chorus is:

For it's cheer up my lads
Let your hearts never fail
For the bonnie ship the Diamond
Goes a-hunting for the whale

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Charley,
I'm with you there. I'm as happy belting out a shanty as I am warbling a Child ballad.
And as a singer I see no need to stick to the printed page or the songs I pick up from other singers.
I assume the best and most treasured shantymen were those who improvised their verses and had a good dig at those not heaving or pulling.
I know I'd pull twice as hard if I was listening to the mate being slagged off or the shantyman's latest conquests ashore.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

But the fun is in the details!

And the real fun is leading one.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

The usual case, Steve, as I think you know.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM

Which might mean that some of the 'tantalising hints' referred to above could be as close to the truth as we're gonna get.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

Lighter-

Exactly!

It's the same with "Coal Black Rose" and any number of other shanties which can be traced to field songs or minstrel songs.

"The words" of any shanty, beyond the first verse and chorus, were generally just a snapshot what a shantyman happened to be singing. It's only be cause we've learned them, generally, from the printed page that we assume the lyrics were uniform for any one song.

Even the melody, as Bob Walser has documented, generally varies after the first verse and chorus.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:47 AM

Gee, except for the one phrase, those lyrics aren't anything like the shanty. My guess is that sailors just liked the sound of it, and the musical phrase that carried it, and just took it from there.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:30 AM

John-

Hugill's discussion is on pp. 297-298, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS.

Here's the lyrics of the field song with notes:

ROUN' DE CORN, SALLY

(corn husking song collected by slaveholder James Hungerford's The Old Plantation and What I Gathered There in an Autumn Month, c. 1832, quoted in THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS by Eileen Southern, pp. 180)

Grand Chorus:

Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!

Dis lub's er (a) thing dat's sure to hab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He hole you tight, when once he grab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un ole un ugly, young un pretty, Roun' de corn, Sally!
You needen try when once he git you, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

Dere's Mr. Travers lub Miss Jinny, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He thinks she is us (as) good us any, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He comes from church wid her er (on) Sunday, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un don't go back ter town till Monday, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

More Notes:

"Round De Corn, Sally," first collected when used as a rowing song, had at least one more verse in Hungerford, two lines of
which are given, along with yours, in Dena J. Epstein, "Sinful Tunes and Spirituals." Are the other two lines in your reference?

Epstein gives the sheet music on p. 169 of her book:

Dere's Mr Lucas lub Miss T'resser,
Un ebery thing he does ter please her;

Quoting from Epstein (from Hungerford); "When a passenger (on the boat, coastal Maryland) requested "Round de Corn,
Sally," she was told 'Dat's a corn song, un we'll hab ter sing it slow ter row to." They sang it, improvising words to fit the
members of the party.

Evidently the field song also became the basis for a minstrel song, according to Hugill.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM

Thanks, Charley. This is helpful. Would it be possible to share some of those links? I seem to be having trouble finding any links these days. I was even wondering if there was a problem with the search function.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

John-

"Round the Corner" is well documented, first as a field song "Round the Corn, Sally" and then as the shanty "Round the Corner, Sally." The sailors referred to Cape Horn as the "corner" in question. There are abundant threads here on this song.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:56 PM

Apart from "Cheerly, Men" is there any consensus on the identity of these other songs?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:52 PM

I am wondering if there is any general agreement on the current identity of any of the shanties listed by Dana in TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, here (scroll down to page 285):

http://books.google.com/books?id=SXQaAAAAYAAJ&dq=Richard+Henry+Dana+%22Two+Years%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=ucVUS

To overdo the obvious one more time, they are:

"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy O!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Cheerly, Men"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Round the corner"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

I have been seeing lots of tantalizing hints, but can we really identify any of these shanties? The more I read the more skeptical I become. I believe this thread started long ago with an assumption that some had been identified and some were "lost". Are Hugill's own conclusions on this matter holding up to today's scrutiny?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:37 PM

The people at Folktrax identify Mr. Wright's "Tally-I-O" with the shanty "Tiddy-I-O" found in Sharp and in Hugill (in different forms). Here is the Folktrax link (scroll down):

http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/search%20for%20titles_ti.htm

Here is Sharp's version from ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS p. 46:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/46/mode/2up

And Hugill's version can be found on page 452 of the 1961 edition of SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS.

All of this has been discussed at some length over in the "Rare Caribbean shanties" thread, particularly here (the posts in that thread seemed to be in reverse order):

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=75&page=1&desc=yes#2675765

It's not clear that any of these three possibilities, from Mr.Wright (Carpenter), Mr. Rapsey (Sharp) or Mr. Smith (Hugill) is the shanty mentioned by Dana.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

I have a date of 1843 on 'Dance the Boatman'. There are at least 3 copies of the sheet music in the Levy Collection.
Box 18 nos 28,29,30
Box 59 number 36 has a note

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM

Leland's song is a good guess. But Dana's phrase appears in a number of shanties. "De Boatman Dance" was a minstrel hit, but was it around in 1834?

Leland tells us that he's incorporated some old song into his own poems, but pointedly will not say where. What he does say is, "This is not a folklore book."

Interestingly enough, one of his own poems is called "Time for Us to Go," and the chorus begins with those words. This could mean that he actually heard the shanty mentioned by Dana, maybe at the same time he heard "A Dandy Ship."

OTOH, maybe he just picked up these phrases from Dana's book and built his own lyrics around them. As an American writer of the 19th C., Leland he was surely familiar with "Two Years."

The text of "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew" seems too elaborately poetic to make a good shanty, but the song was obviously very popular and a shantyman might well have used the "Yankee ship" lines with their repeated refrains as the basis for a shanty.

A better candidate for Dana's shanty may be "Tally-I-O!" recorded about 1928 by J. M. Carpenter from James Wright, who went to sea in 1864. Unfortunately that's a full generation after Dana, but the shanty may have been losing popularity for a long time since I can't think of any other texts of it. It is very hard to understand Wright's words - again unfortunately:

                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!
                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Come tally-I-O, you know!        

                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                We'll tell [?them we're sober] O Tally-O!
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                We'll tell [?them we're sober], O Tally-O!
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Since Dana's "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" and "Tally high ho! you know" have both been identified, I'm wondering if they are the same as these two songs, and if they are, how were they used as shanties?

First of all, "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" as found here in SONGS OF THE SEA AND LAYS OF THE LAND, by Charles Godfrey Leland, (1895) p. 104-105:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mnIUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Songs+of+the+Sea+and+Lays+of+the+Land%22&source=bl&ots=L9r1

And is "Tally high ho? you know" the same as "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew", found here in a book called SONG BOOK FOR THE USE OF THE COMMANDERY OF THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA (1883) p.18-19:

http://www.archive.org/stream/songbookforuseof00mili#page/18/mode/2up

And here in a novel by Captain Mayne Reid called OCEOLA (1859) p. 254 and 262:

http://www.archive.org/stream/oceola02reid#page/254/mode/2up

And here in a book entitled "'The Rough and Ready Songster: Embellished with Twenty-Five Splendid Engravings, Illustrative of the American Victories in Mexico. By an American Officer' " (1848) p. 200-201:

http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1245:1.lincoln

And here in an antique print from 1837:

http://www.hylandgranby.com/marine_antiques_paintings_details.asp?itemID=PR1139

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM

I apologise. I should have checked my broadside indexes straight away.
'Cheer up, Sam' was printed on broadsides by Williamson of Newcastle 1856-67, Pearson of Manchester, Sanderson of Edinburgh and Hodges of London and there is a broadside at the Bodleian Broadside website Firth b27 (179) all about the same period, certainly none predating 1850 so it looks like the American Memory sheet music is probably the original.
In my shanty index no texts turn up under that title.

Re 'Heave to the girls'. I also don't think anyone would quote that part of the 'Rio' versions. In effect its meaning crosses two lines,
We'll sing as we heave,
To the maidens we leave.
It distorts the meaning if you take out the said phrase.

A long shot....a distortion/oral version of 'Here's to the maiden of bashful fifteen' taken to sea? 'here's to the girls'.

Another suggestion...toasts of that nature were very common in the early 19thc and some of them were in the form of a sung verse. Could 'here's to the girls' have been misheard as 'Heave to the girls'??

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM

Q, thanks for the American Memory reference on "Cheer Up, Sam" for 1856. If it is not found in Dana, do we know when it went to sea, and do we have any other references to it other than Hugill and Whall as a shanty?

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 12:16 AM

Great detective work, John.

Basil Lubbock's 1902 "Round the Horn Before the Mast," which is set in 1899, gives this complete couplet as part of "Away Rio!":

We'll sing as we heave to the maidens we leave....
You know at this parting how sadly we grieve....

Besides Mordaunt, something similar also appears in "Blue Water," by the Canadian novelist F. W. Wallace.

I don't recall seeing a similar couplet in any other song.

Whether it's related to Dana's shanty I don't know, but I do agree that if he'd heard "Rio Grande," he'd likely have used that or a similar title (like "Away, Rio")rather than a phrase in one of the couplets.

I suspect that "Heave to the Girls!" was a chorus or part of one.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 09:31 PM

This is probably a long shot, but see what you think. I did a Google search on "Heave to the girls" and found a couple of interesting things. First of all there was this from William Clark Russell's book MAROONED (1898):

http://books.google.com/books?id=tAsXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=%22Heave+,+to+the+girls%22&source=bl&ots=-Ojmc7t-TC&sig=XrcEcK

Granted this is not a shanty, but about a mate calling for a shanty. But then there is this from A SHIP OF SOLACE, by Eleanor Mordaunt (1911). Look at the fourth verse:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n310/mode/2up

And there is this from John Ward's web page, which he says is from Frank Shay's IRON MEN AND WOODEN SHIPS. However, this is not what I find in Shay so I'm not sure where it is from. Again, check the fourth verse:

http://www.jsward.com/shanty/rio/away_rio.html

In at least two versions of "Rio Grande" there is a verse that has the line "heave to the girls" or "heave to the maidens". I have not found any other instances of this in other versions of "Rio Grande" but I haven't checked that many. I suppose that if Dana was referring to this shanty he would have called it by the name of "Rio Grande" but it is an intriguing coincidence.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Steve, the only place I can think of where the missing songs might be would be Dana's "Journal," ed. by Robert Lucid (Harvard U. P.), but that wasn't published till 1968.

I may be able to check this for you in the library over the weekend.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Q, useful list.

Steve, no "Jack Cross-Tree" version of "Boney" that I know of. Just idle speculation.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM

"Cheer Up, Sam, or Sarah Bell," is in American Memory; an 'Ethiopian' song, 1856.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

Jonathan
Yes, I saw the Jack Crosstree reference earlier in the thread which is what made me think of Dibdin's efforts. There was a Jack at the Windlass, Jack Binnacle, Jack Brace, Jack Junk, Jack Ketch, Jack Oakum, Jack Steadfast, so Jack Crosstree seems inevitable. Is there a Boney version with JC in it?

The actual Dana passage certainly puts it down as a lively work song, but it could have been a Dibdin song adapted. Some of Dibdin's choruses are imitative of the earlier shouts like 'Yeo, heave ho'

Hugill in 'Shanties and Sailor Songs' says of 'Cheer up, Sam' 'ELSEWHERE, he gives Cheer up Sam as a shanty they used.' This suggests to me that 'Elsewhere' meant not in 'Two years before the Mast' but in some of his other writing.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

"Jack Ratlin" and "Tom Bowling" are by Dibdin Sr.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

"Tom Tack," I assume, refers to the poem by Charles Dibdin Junior, first verse-
Tom Tack was the shipmate for duty,
Till fortune she gave him a twitch,
For Tom fell in love with a beauty-
He'd better have fall'n in a ditch:
With his fair he could get no promotion,
So Tom, like a desperate dog,
He drown'd all his cares in the ocean,-
But then, 'twas the ocean of grog.


These are the Sea Songs of Charles Dibdin, Junior, like those of T. Dibdin often carelessly ascribed to the senior Dibdin. Many are on the humorous side.

All in his Glory
A Tar's Duty
The Bowsprit of Wapping
Born at sea, and my cradle a frigate
Ben the Boatswain
Good Ship Britannia
I unshipp'd from aboard the Sky Rocket
I'm a true honest-hearted gay fellow
Jack Junk was a tar who could tether his tack
Jack Gunnel, an odd fish
Let 'em come
Lieutenant Yeo
Modes of Invasion
Naval Worthies
Old England's ship of the line
Off Cape Finisterre
Poll of Horsleydown
Pro Aris et Focis
Ready for Action
Sailor's Log Ashore
Sons of Albion, sound to arms
The Albion is a noble ship
The foe, on one string always strumming
Tom Tack was the shipmate for duty
The Obstinate Dog
When a sailor goes to sea
We're told that our foes to invade us intend
Your grave politicians may kick up a rout
Ye landsmen and ye seamen

From Songs of Charles Dibdin, with a Memoir, collected and arranged by T. Dibdin, Admiralty Edition, George Bell and Sons.

The Addena include the songs of T. Dibdin, and the Sea Songs of C. Dibdin. Jun.

Songs of T. Dibdin include "Poll of Wapping Stairs," "Sam Splicem," "Tobacco, Grog and Flip," etc.

Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Good going, Steve. Dana specifies this as a shanty; if it was a shore song, as you suggest, it might have been best fitted to the capstan.

Bear in mind, too, that a "jack cross-tree" was an actual iron cross-tree at the head of a t'gallant mast.

Probably not worth mentioning is the possibility that "Jack Cross-Tree!" was occasionally substituted for "John Franswah!" in "Boney."
But in that case Dana would more likely have mentioned Bonaparte rather than the chorus.