Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'

Subject: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:33 PM

This article was in today's paper in Sacramento. I'm so glad somebody agrees with me about the poor quality of "praise music," which I think is the Christian equivalent of bubblegum music.

Yummy, yummy, yummy,
I've got God in my tummy...

I thought that as a Catholic, I wouldn't be subjected to that stuff - but even many Catholic churches have picked up "praise music" in recent years. they think it speaks to tody's young people, but it sounds like bad country music to me.
-Joe Offer, irreverently-

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Old-time hymns get an altar call
"There is music in my soul today, for when the Lord is near,
The dove of peace sings in my heart, the flow'rs of grace appear
—From the gospel song "Sunshine in My Soul," written in 1887 by Eliza E. Hewitt
By Eric Gorski
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWSPAPERS (5 October 2002)

Other than the occasional "Amazing Grace," the hymn is dead at many Protestant churches these days.
As church music evolved to fit the times, the hymn book has been tucked away in favor of pop-influenced praise songs whose lyrics are projected on big screens.
A 64-year-old music minister picked up a microphone at Radiant Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, and brought the old songs back to life on a recent Friday night, if only for two hours.
The Rev. Paul Ferrin began holding these "Old-Fashioned Hymn Sings" three years ago. Now he has quit his job as national music director for the Assemblies of God denomination to stage the revivals across the nation.
The churches aren't always equipped. At Radiant Church, there is no organ. So Ferrin and his wife, Marjorie, borrowed an old Hammond in town.
The 500 people who took up hymn books that Friday shouted out requests for "Blessed Assurance," "Kneel at the Cross" and "I'll Fly Away," songs about sin and salvation, grace and the Gospel, pearly gates and blood- stained crosses.
Does this mean hymns are making a comeback? Will hymn sings become a retro phenomenon? Probably not, experts say..
The audience, after all, was "almost all white hair," as one participant put it. But the success of Ferrin's roadshow speaks to a desire to at least preserve a few traditional favorites in the new church music canon.
"We miss singing the old hymns," said Ruth Kenyon, 68. "I feel more worshipful singing them. It just seems they have more of a message."
To many people of faith, music is more than a soundtrack to their spiritual lives. It can remind them of family, teach them about church beliefs or make them feel closer to God. Music has been called "the vocabulary of American religion."
The early evangelical Protestant hymns, penned in the 18th and 19th centuries, typically run three to several verses, sometimes with no refrain. Often written by pastors, they are heavy on church doctrine.
That style gave way in the mid-1800s to gospel hymns with multipart harmonies and testimonial lyrics about Jesus' power to transform.
"Praise music" became popular in evangelical and Pentecostal churches in the 1970s. This is church music stripped down to the chorus. The lyrics are repeated over and over to soft rock played on guitar backed by drums and bass.
"The pattern is very clear: The music keeps up with popular music tastes or it doesn't work," said Stephen Marini, chairman of the religion department at Wellesley College and author of the forthcoming book "Sacred Song in America: Religion, Music and Public Culture."
To many evangelicals, praise music is the only church music they've known. Many mainline Protestant churches, from Methodists to Lutherans, have adopted praise songs in an effort to reverse declining membership rolls. Some churches mix hymns and praise songs.
Ferrin, who grew up a Baptist, staged his first hymn sing at Radiant when the interim pastor invited him to plan a Thanksgiving service. He will have 20 nationwide this year.
He doesn't expect hymns to replace praise music, but doesn't see why the two can't co-exist.
"We have a tendency to do this in life in general the new things come in, and we don't retain the old," Ferrin said. "I just feel like a balance is so very important."
Brandan Vargo, 25, a college student and one of the few young people at the sing, sees hymns as a way to unite people of different ages and faiths.
"I personally like the contemporary music, but if you have A mix of the contemporary and the old hymns, it's a church everyone can go to," Vargo said.
The biggest challenge to hymn loyalists is winning over people such as Vargo.
Praise music lyrics are easier to grasp, said Barry Liesch, a music professor at Biola University and author of "The New Worship: Straight Talk on Music and the Church."
On a practical side, the hymns' frequent chord changes don't lend themselves to guitar, today's preferred instrument.
Liesch fears the church is "losing some richness here, and intellectua depth" in abandoning hymns. But he doesn't see them making a comeback.
At Radiant Church, hymns were the rule, not the exception. Before closing with "Like a River Glorious," Ferrin took a moment to reflect.
"Isn't this marvelous?" he said. "this has got to be a glimpse of what heaven is going to be."

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: khandu
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:47 PM

Thanks, Joe. Pardon me if I creep a wee bit.

A lot of the "praise music" seems to be staged. Many times, it is a vehicle to showcase the performer, rather than true praise.

Even in the Southern Gospel quartets, it seems to be more of a "show" than exultation.

I suppose that it always comes down to the attitude of the heart more than anything. I have seen instances where someone is singing along in a genuine act of praise while the one performing the song is doing just that...performing.

I am disturbed by a multitude of activities that go on in church groups, including the self-promotion of many who "preach" selflessness.

But,I seek to "mind my own business" and "work out my own salvation..."

khandu

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 05 Oct 02 - 10:51 PM

A "Praise versus Hymns" story.

~Masato

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Passage copy-pasted from the link cited above, just because I like it.
-Joe Offer-

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Praise versus Hymns
I forget where I picked this piece up. It is not mine, but I thought it was worth sharing with you. If the pew fits - sit in it : )

An old farmer went to the city one weekend and attended a large church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well", said the farmer, "it was good. They did something different, however. They sang praise choruses instead of hymns.' "Praise choruses", said his wife, "what are those?" "Oh they're okay. They're sort of like hymns, only different," said the farmer. "Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife. The farmer said well it's like this ... If I were to say to you: "Martha, the cows are in the corn, "well, that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you:

" Martha, Martha, Oh, Martha, Martha, Martha, the cows ,
the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows and white cows, the cows,
the COWS, COWS, COWS are in the corn, are in the corn,
are in the corn, the CORN, CORN, CORN, "

then if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well, that would be a praise chorus."

Coincidentally, the same week, a young businessman from the city who normally attended a church with contemporary style worship, was in the old farmer's town on business and visited the farmer's small town church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. "Well," said the young man, "it was good". They did something different however. They sang hymns instead of regular songs. "Hymns?" said his wife, "What are those?"

"Oh they're okay. They're sort of like regular songs only different", said the young man. "Well, what's the difference?" asked his wife. The young man said, "Well, it's like this ... If I were to say to you,

"Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry. Inclinest thine ear to the words of my mouth ,
Turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by to the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth.
For the way of the animals who can explain there, in their heads, tis no shadow of sense,
harkenest they in God's sun or his rain unless from the mild, tempting corn they are fenced.

Yea those cows in glad bovine, rebellious delight have broke free their shackles, their warm pens eschewed,
Then goaded by minions of darkness and nigh they all my mild Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed.

So look to that bright shining day by and by, where all foul corruptions of earth are reborn.
Where no vicious animals make my soul cry and I no longer see those foul cows in the corn.

Then if I were to do only verses one, three and four and do a key change on the last verse, well that would be a hymn."

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:38 AM

I think people who like praise music will tell you that it isn't the music, it's what they experience via the music, Joe.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 01:02 PM

I've heard a lot of "Praise" music in black churches, and I hesitate to knock it, even though I find that it doesn't move me like the old hymns and gospel songs. The "message" seems to be stripped down and generalized, so that people can get into the feel of the song. I think, for example of a current major hit in the Praise Music catalogue which keeps repeating "We fall down, but we get up." I keep thinking on my kids when they were little and the said, "We fall down, go boom!"

There certainly is a lot of performing going on in churches (and probably always has been.) But, I know people who love Praise music who seem to be very sincere in their faith. Not knowing what is in anyone's heart, I sing what moves me, and leave it to others to sing what moves them.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 02:02 PM

But for a lot of people "what they experience via the music" is precisely what they find difficult about "praise music", as opposed to hymns which are more traditional in their community.

In many Catholic churches at any rate, we have a weird situation in which the word "folk" actually means the opposite of "traditional".

A"Folk Mass" is likely to mean large numbers standing silent looking irritated or bored, some people dutifully reading out of the book, and some people really into it, clapping away in solitary exhuberance. And then maybe they'll give us one of the old hymns, and people who've been silent or reading from the books wake up, or put down the books and sing the words they know from the heart.

Trying to take what works wonderfully in one setting, and impose it on another setting can be very damaging indeed, and can cause real hurt to people.

And there are of course some great new songs/hymns - Sydney Carter, Luke Connaughton, John Glynn, for example, but they aren't the ones I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM

I agree, Joe. I have a question for you. I've heard that the song "Shine Jesus Shine" is not in line with the theology in some of the churches that use it. I know you have opinions about "On Eagles' Wings" and Michael Joncas (careful about theology), but do you know the specifics about why this other song is not "correct" theology?

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 02:49 PM

A couple of weeks ago my church went to the black church two blocks away for a joint service. THEY DIDN'T NEED HYMNBOOKS! It was fun singing the old hymns together, but the folks from my church were lost past the second verse of the hymns.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 02:54 PM

Most black churches I go to have hymn books, but they are chock full of old hymns and spirituals... great fun to sing. That said, many folks sing from memory, and never open the hymn book.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM

I suppose that it always comes down to the attitude of the heart more than anything. I have seen instances where someone is singing along in a genuine act of praise while the one performing the song is doing just that...performing.

But, I seek to "mind my own business" and "work out my own salvation..."

Good post, Khandu.

One may or may not have sufficient spiritual gifts of discernment to know what is or is not genuine in someone else's heart. But to judge without openness to the truth of what others are experiencing is to come mighty close to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I think Khandu has the best attitude about this I have ever seen-- think what you think and prefer what you prefer, but judge only yourself.

Hardi and I minister in a church where, years before our time, people forgot the importance of that and almost destroyed their parish and their own spiritualities in the process. At its saddest, people got to a place from BOTH sides of the division (a division they had allowed and deepened), where they could say to each other, "Something is wrong with you because of the way you worship. My way is right and you're just too weird/fake/saccharine//dead/archaic/formal for any true faith to be present at all."

I think both sides have equal bragging rights to being stuck in wrongness. Over and over we learn not to judge... yet we never seem to tire of needing to learn it.

"Oh, it's only the music we're talking about, Susan, lighten up." No. I don't think it IS, not if you think about it a bit.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wilco
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:27 PM

    This is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. I wasn't raised in a church that played any of the old hymnns, and I didn't hear most of them until I was about forty years old. I fell in love with these old hymnns, and, now I know hundreds of them. We'll play them for hours at festivals.
      In the Catholic church, we wnent from the latin gobbldygook of the fiftys to the "folk" junk of Vatican II. Mostly uninspiring, uninspired pap.
    My 22 year old son plays organ and piano in several churches, including Catholic and Baptist and Methodist services. He is given a lot of latitude to pick his own music, and he uses a lot of the old Protestant hymnns in the Catholic Church. They love it!!!! All of the other denominations love it too!!! You can see the lights come-on in peoples' eyes, and hear thenm really sing out with the old hymnns. I think, that if people had a choice, they would like the old stuff.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 04:30 PM

I'm with you there, wilco. Our Saturday night service has shown that. It's a wacky mix of any and every form of gospel, from any and every source, done acoustically in an almost oldtime stringband way. We include a few pieces of praise music, but we don't get stuck in any subgenre for long.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:16 PM

OK, so here is a link (click) to the lyrics and a very insipid MIDI of "Shine Jesus Shine." For this particular song, it's just this particular arrangement that strikes me as typical of the worst of "praise music." The lyrics and tune aren't bad, and a congregation can sing them quite well - I'm not big on the power/majesty/kingship theology, but I suppose it's within the mainstream of Christian practice.

I suppose that may be what irks me most - when the musical accompaniment sounds like a MIDI, particularly if it's a MIDI with synthetic hand-clapping. That, and tunes and lyrics that sound like really bad country music or a cheaply-made television commercial. Face it - much of what is called "praise music" sounds like a sales jingle.

I happen to disagree with Kevin about the newer hymns used by Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans - the ones who used to be called "mainstream Christians." Many of the texts are straight from Scripture, and it's hard to argue with them. Some of the tunes are good, and some not-so-good - but I've seen congregations sing many of them quite well if they're led by a musician who believes in the music.

And I think many of the old anthems deserve to die. They may be easy to sing - but if they have no message, drop 'em.

-Joe Offer-


Here's "Shine Jesus Shine. I don't mind verse one and the chorus -they have somewhat of as Scriptural basis - but verses two and three make me gag.

Shine, Jesus, Shine (Words & Music by Graham Kendrick, 1987) Lord the light of Your love is shining In the midst of the darkness, shining; Jesus, Light of the world, shine upon us, Set us free by the truth You now bring us, Shine on me, Shine on me. [Chorus] Shine, Jesus, shine Fill this land with the Father's glory; Blaze, Spirit, blaze, Set our hearts on fire. Flow, river, flow, Flood the nations with grace and mercy; Send forth Your Word, Lord And let there be light. Lord, I come into Your awesome presence From the shadows into Your radiance; By the blood I may enter Your brightness, Search me, try me, consume all my darkness. Shine on me, Shine on me. [Chorus] As we gaze on Your kingly brightness So our faces display Your likeness, Ever changing from glory to glory, Mirrowed here may our lives tell Your story. Shine on me, shine on me. [Chorus]

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:29 PM

I might well agree with me on the new hymns I like, and the old hymns I could do without, Joe; and you might agree with me on the new ones that wouldn't be missed, and the old ones that would be (and are.)

I believe that tradition matters a lot in songs and music, and that songs often mean more than they seem to mean on the surface, whether in the secular or religious context.

And I get nervous about reformers around stained glass windows and such like, as much in the 21st century as in the sixteenth.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:35 PM

You're right about reformers, Kevin. They can tend to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I was reading yesterday that in the 1940's, the ornamentation on the Tower Bridge in London was considered gaudy. It was proposed that the stone sheathing be taken down, and the steel superstructure be covered with glass.
Yuck.
-Joe Offer-

Oh - allow me to add that to me, much "praise music" sounds like "It's a Small, Small World."
Yuck, again.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jeanie
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:42 PM

An intentionally hilarious book was published last month by, of all people, the SPCK (Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge): "My Ministry Manual" by the Rev. Gerald Ambulance (alias of Stephen Tomkins). The wonderful Reverend has a whole chapter on : "How to write worship songs". He recommends "a vacant head and vacuous lyrics" - some examples of his work:

O God, you're really Lord.
Jesus, you're really Lord.
Spirit, you're really Lord.
I'm glad you don't get bored.
And Lord you really are just really Lord (x12)

The Rev. says: "Don't worry if what comes out sounds a bit banal or meaningless to you. When you think about it, the whole human race must seem banal to God, so who are we to judge ? And with a bit of providence the punters singing it will be too out of their heads and into the heavenlies to mind." (He recommends using "O'l Romanian celestial strength incense to achieve this effect).

My favourite line from another of the Rev's masterpieces has to be this one:
"Jesus turned my trudging into skipping,
He turned my unchastity to zipping"

The whole book is so very close to the truth, it's brilliant !

I've also come across another superb aid for the budding modern worship songwriter: Fridgemagnets (like the one-word-at-a-time poetry ones). Create your own worship song in an instant by looking here : (this is my first attempt at a blue clicky, so forgive me if it goes wrong)http://wibsite.com/wibblethorpe/fridgemagnet.htm

Many blessings !
- jeanie

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 06:43 PM

Some of the old hymn tunes are just plain good tunes. When I was in the post confirmation Luther League in late High School and early college days, we had a Chicago folk service (borrowing heavily from the Catholic folk masses, I believe). As one of the guitar players, I helped lead a lot of services back then. Many of the new songs had fairly wimpy tunes (remember this is just my opinion). It seems like some of the new hymn composers had just discovered suspended chords. I was also heavily leaned on by others in the group "to just play like everybody else" (they frowned on finger picking) and everything was done of what I now refer to as a "luther league strum."

These days I have a more Unitarian outlook in the spiritual realm, but don't think they are any better in the strong music and meaningful words department either. Just noodling on the guitar these days, sometimes old hymn tunes like "This is my Father's World" come out. And even without the words, it's a great tune. "Children of the Heavenly Father" is a mainstay of our live performances, even though we don't generally do religious numbers (it's folk for us, because my grandfather used to sing my mom to sleep with it in Swedish). I'm not implying that my perception that the newer church music was wimpy drove me away from regular church habits, but I think it was a general symptom.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 07:32 PM

So Joe - you object to a college group's lyrics forSing Hosanha to the Lord

Give me wax for my board
Keep me suring for the Lord
Give me wax for my board, I pray
Give me wax for my board
Keep me surfing for the Lord
Keep me surfing till the break of day

Give me salt for my Freetos
God is neato, neato, neato

Give me gas for my Ford
Keep me truckin' for the Lord.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:02 PM

Another thought here...bit of thread creep...

Last year I attended a dedication service for a PIPE ORGAN! in a very small Episcopal church. One of the priests mentioned that music was what brought many people into the church and this particular instrument would belong to the community. I started examining my feelings and beliefs and discovered that many were blurred with memories and emotions of music. Kevin mentioned that tradition matters a lot in songs and hymns...got me to thinking. In so many of the hymns I love (like Christmas carols and nursery rhymes), I really don't understand the words!

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:08 PM

Myself, I think one test for whether a new hymn (or whatever you call it) is a good one is whether you could imagine it sounding good in a folk context, sung by someone like Coopes Boyes and Simpson, or Waterson Carthy. And I mention them because, one way and another they sing a fair number of old hymns.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:13 PM

I have to say that I once loved pipe organs. Recently, I've started to change my mind. The organists play so loud, you can't hear anybody sing. Do they think sforzando is the only way to play a pipe organ?

This is in high-class joints, mind you - churches that ought to be able to pay a decent organist. We had big pipe organs in the seminary, and they were wonderful - but the organists played to accompany the singing, not drown it out.

-Joe Offer-

Gargoyle, I think you and I come from different parts of the world. Surfboards aren't a big thing in Milwaukee, where I grew up. People who try to surf Lake Michigan are called "idiots."

We sang this one.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: raredance
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 08:35 PM

The folk process works in stories as well as songs. The following is from "Snappy Stories that Preacher's Tell" compiled by Paul E Holdcraft (1932, the Stockton Press). Compare to the story that Masato found and note that Holdcraft didn't write this in 1932, he got it from some other preexisting source. It appears we're not as familiar with breeds of cattle as we once were.

THE ANTHEM

Elder Watkins, just back from the city, was telling his wife of the church he had attended.
"Did you know any of their songs?" asked she.
"No," replied the elder, "they didn't sing anything but anthems."
"Anthems!" exclaimed his wife. "What on earth is an anthem?"
"Well", answered the elder, "I can't tell you just exactly, but if I'd say to you, 'Betsy, the cows are in the corn,' that wouldn't be an anthem. But if I'd say, 'Betsy, Betsy, Betsy, the cows, the cows, the Holstein cow, the muley cow, the Jersey cow, the spotted cow - all the cows are in, are in, the corn, corn, corn. Ah-men!' why that'd be an anthem.


rich r

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Heely
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 09:28 PM

Just a thought from an old organist /choirmaster: my choir members say that a hymn is what you remember when you are lying on a guerney outside of the operating room. A praise song is what you recover to.
I have choir members who have recalled the hymns they sang in their minds while under the white sheet waiting for the operation in the cold waiting area. Think about it; HIS Eye IS ON THE SPARROW or LORD I LIFT YOUR NAME ON HIGH> I know what I would sing. When my dad died of cancer my family circle his bed and sang for the whole night. What did we sing? The good old hymns. Heely

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Mooh
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 10:52 PM

Born of personal bias and experience, my taste runs to hymns. I like the general melodic lilt and majesty of hymns, but I especially like sung harmonies like that of the hymns of my Anglican upbringing. Many newer hymns appeal to me too, but generally those which have arrangements for up to four parts. I like a descant, fauxbourdon, alternate tunes, alternate verses, and other variables at times, so I don't see hymns as being static.

(I have a guitar student who had me help him with a piece of praise music which repeated the word awesome so often it almost made me renounce my faith...okay, I exagerate...but the lyric was so unimaginative, banal and uncrafted that I can't imagine a congregation of anyone but halfwits enjoying it. It was so simple as to be insulting, but God forgives, right? Anyway, I prefer a bit more intellect in my worship.)

Good organists (someone above mentioned pipe organs) are hard to find these days for parishes with limited budgets. My small town church happens to have one of the finest pipe organs anywhere, and a wonderful man behind it who knows how to lead a congregation and direct the choir. We are lucky and blessed, but given that he's quite beyond normal retirement age, we will someday have to ponder his replacement. Because he's so good however, there's no real movement to get "happy clappy" with the churchfolkguitarstrummersmelodyonlysingers. Maybe someday, but not now.

Lest one wonders, I really like hymns based on old folk tunes (and vice versa) and regularly play mandolin and fingerstyle guitar arrangements of them for my own amusement. As solo performances they are very nice, but one couldn't lead a congregation with them like an organ.

There are hymn naysayers around who haven't heard enough hymns to make an informed decision. For those I recommend some research (I have a small collection of hymn books and like to peruse the web for hymns). There is such a wide variety sung at the churches of one faith alone to give a good idea, but if one is tired of the same old hymns, try attending something other than the same old church (maybe in addition to your regular one).

Every so often I try to experience "praise music" by surfing the net or the cable TV Sunday broadcasts, but so far I'm underwhelmed. I do like to think that "praise music" is in a very early period of evolution and will mature someday, though I doubt it will in my lifetime. We live in hope.

Just some thoughts from a hymn snob. Thanks for listening.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jim Krause
Date: 06 Oct 02 - 11:34 PM

Myself, I like the music of The Sacred Harp. Four part harmony, a capella; straight and neat.

Jim

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 12:32 AM

There is probably no greater thrill for a key-boardest than to play a full-fledged pipe-organ. Your experience encompasses the entire orchestra from the conductor to the kettle drums and picollo....what a rush!!!

The pipe-organ is an instrument not well suited for the accompaniment of small vocal groups, unless they "take turns" on center stage.

I LOVE the great hymns of the faith. They have tempered me through the most jubilent and difficult times of times.

It is strange to attend Mormon/LDS services and find the same time honored, cherished tunes with different words.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,Bo in KY
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 12:57 AM

As a pastor I just had to jump in on this one. The question for me is the definition of an "old hymn". When a parishioner wants to sing the "old hymns" in my congregation, they invariably mean gospel songs from about a 40-year period in the late 19th century (Old Rugged Cross, In the Garden, etc.) Anything outside of that, even if it be from the 6th century, is a "new song" to them. Apparently 3 or 4 generations ago, at least in this part of Kentucky, these were the gospel songs (at the time probably 'radical') that were embraced, adopted and taught to children as the "traditional" music of the church. If you go back further historically, in the Reformed churches the hymns themselves were considered suspect - any human poetry set to music was inferior to the Psalter, i.e. singing God's word. For a couple hundred years the Psalter alone was used in worship (and to my mind they were on to something). I find some of the old Psalms (of which the "Old Hudredth" is perhaps the best known today) to be very moving and even timely.

Unfortunately American culture is so overwhelmingly individualistic it has affected the radical communitarian nature of the church, and this comes out in discussions of worship music, as we tend to "I'm OK you're OK" and "whatever makes you feel good is right" kind of thinking rather than really grappling with how to worship God as a community of faith and what part music plays in that. Striving to be "non-judgmental" sometimes boils down to an attitude of "keep the customer satisfied" rather than challenging people to new levels of faith and understanding.

That being said, I have introduced my congregation to "canting" the Psalms (as was done 500 years ago or so - radically new!!) and the worship style of the Taize community, in which the music is often guitar-based and repetitive, but in a way that is almost chant-like and conducive to contemplation. I also find some of the old monastic plainsongs to be incredibly haunting when played on the bowed psaltery. But my community would probably be just as happy singing Fanny Crosby hymns every Sunday!

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 06:22 AM

There's a hymn singing session at the National Folk Festival in Canberra every year. The material chosen tends to be driven by popular taste, and that usually means the older material, with a leavening of spirituals and odds and ends like "Drop Kick Me, Jesus, Through the Goalposts of Life."

This could be a reflection of the age group that turns up, too.

BTW, Joe, did you ever use this verse:

He's six foot two, eyes of blue,
Walks across the water too,
Has anybody seen my Lord?

I see a couple of similar bits in your link...

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:11 AM

Hear old gospel, black and white, here:

The Roots Music Listening Room

Have fun!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: pattyClink
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:19 AM

On a more positive note, I know one church which does both styles to overwhelming response. The music director loves and does both styles. There are two services, one is praise-y, one is hymn-y. Multiple small choirs, including an oldster group and a kids group. As a result, the place is standing room only with a vibrant community of all ages. The key is getting good musicians involved in the church and giving them some latitude.

Yeah, people like the old hymns. But many don't MEAN a whole lot to the modern mind. For people raised post-animal sacrifice, what does 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' do for you? It's so creepy and out-of-place it encourages people to just ignore the words and sing the notes. I've seen crowds 'get into' old hymns too and it's wonderful, but I've seen more cases of people mentally 'checking out' on verse two of some boring old tract.

Here's hoping we can keep the best of both breeds and lose the chaff.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:28 AM

Perhaps the discussion might turn to the situation for the person responsible for choosing and leading the music for a worship service-- I know several of us here hold that responsibility, and can speak about that.

When we began our Saturday night service several years ago, and ever since, that person is me. We had been asked to start a new service with contemporary music. I had heard and sung some, and agreed it would be a good idea. It was never planned that I would do the music, or engage someone-- but no one on the committee covered that base. The week arrived of the first scheduled service, and I found myself, autoharp and all, plunging in. We found, within a few months, that the service had attracted not mostly young people, but mostly older couples. My own musical journey at that time was turning to old hymns of other denominations-- like someone who posted above, I didn't grow up hearing them. They were easy on the acoustic instrumentation and very singable, and they made a greater impact with people present than the praise pieces had. They began to influence our mix.

Since then my musical journey has stayed just a half step ahead of our people... they gladly try anything I sing, and it's obvious which pieces work and should be retained for longterm use. As I have explored we have gone through patches of praise, old hymns, southern gospel, spirituals, black gospel, blues gospel, oldtimey Carter gospel.... bluegrass gospel...

If God inspired it, we sang it.

Hardi and I have spent many hours over the years trying to figure out why it is working so well. We are not that good, and we never do a piece so often that we get good, so good that it's lost its spontaneity. We are restless musically, and we move on rather than refine. We decided, in consultation with some of the people, that this is a large part of why it works for them. They aren't that good either, but they are happily willing to try something if we are trying it too.

My conclusion after several years of this, week in and week out, is that what we must do is choose music that meets a number of criteria. These are ours. What are yours?

Good theology. If it's absent or wrong, insert it or edit for it.

Singability. If it can't be sung upon hearing, it's not for us.

Instrumentation. Can a folkie pull it off?

Memorability. It needs to linger into the week, even if only the melody, to keep the heart lifted up.

Who is it About? Is it me, me, me, or is it about our Lord?

Results. Does it ask the hard questions and show a way to the answer? (Do lives change?) Does it support someone in something difficult? Does it return them to the sense of God that they had when they first met Him? Does the people say that it's come to mind when they have something to grieve or to celebrate?

Culture. Does the tune and language spring from the cultural gut of anyone present?

The Word from Outside. Does it bring in, from another culture, something good that we think our people's spiritual backgrounds are lacking, and that our congregation needs?

Respectful Inclusion. Not the PC kind-- I mean, do we include on a regular basis that which is familiar in sound and language to everyone present? Does everyone get their turn with what works for them, so that they can embrace what is new without a feeling of loss?

Desire. Do we love it so much we have to sing it, even if it isn't perfect? Has it been calling to us all week?

Inspiration. Is there a voice different from our own desires, beyond logic, telling us THIS is the piece we must present?

Affirmation. As we rehearse it, and after we do it, can we see that God brought us through it and has blessed it?

Redemptive JOY. Does it lead to a release of joy as the service ends, that we can see in the way the people relate to each other as they are leaving? Does it go beyond feeling good, to helping people become the person Christ says He created and can redeem them back to?


I think that's most of it. Mmario simplifies, and says it's like a good dish-to-pass supper complete with real strawberry shortcake.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:47 AM

Thats not very positive.
Pattyclink RE: what does 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' do for you?

The understanding of blood atonement for sin is the foundation of Christianity.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: MMario
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:01 AM

pattyClink - " For people raised post-animal sacrifice,..."? Most of those hymns were probably written by people raised post-animal sacrifice.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: IanC
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:11 AM

Garg

not mine it aint.

:-)

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:12 AM

Well, maybe it means something to some people, but bloody lambs and military and regal imagery are foreign to my idea of what religion ought to be. There are songs I like to sing that use this imagery - but I won't use 'em in church.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: wilco
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:15 AM

The hymnns that i use, as well as the types of music that I enjoy, point to a common theme:
I'm not a ministe; I just like old music. My aim is to give people a feeling of "roots," knowing that these songs (rather secular or sacred) are somehing that their ancestors enjoyed. Imagine that you can take a hymnn or secular song, and give it some meaning beyond a bunch of lyrics that sing well. Amazing Grace comes to mind immediately. I'm always looking for old hymnns' histories. It is tough though to get around a bunch of songs from two or three generations ago: I'll Fly Away, Uncloudy Day, Farther Along, Angel Band, A Beautiful Life, Mountain Railroad, Dust on the Bibel, This World is not my Home, Great Speckled Bird, In The Garden, Lily of the Valley, Church in The Wildwood, Peace in the Valley, Drifting too far, Swwt by and by, Sweet Hour of Prayer, Firing Line, Swing Low, Were You There, When They Ring those Golden Bells, Will the Circle be Unbroken, etc.
I would like more old hymnns that have a history of several hundred years, that have possibly been re-set to different melodies or different lyrics. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jim Krause
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:33 AM

I'm a big fan of the 16th and 17th century German chorales. They seem to be very singable by the average person, and can be done beautifully by a congregation a capella, even though many of them were harmonized by J.S. Bach and meant to be played on the pipe organ. That said, I come from a church tradition steeped in four part a capella congregational singing. So we sing them well.

Singing four part harmony is for me a metaphor for life on Earth; all the people blending different voices, and different vocal lines to create real harmony. Sometimes, as in Lowell Mason's setting of The Doxology vocal lines act independently, yet give a sense of purpose, strength, and a common goal.

Singing in unison (eenstemme) is a metaphore for everybody doing the same ol' thing the same ol' way as everybody else, and done badly is just uninteresting. Praise music that I have heard qualifies for this category. Taize, on the other hand can be and is in our church sung in four part harmony, sometime a capella, sometimes with instrumental accompaniment.
Jim

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 01:54 PM

The problem is when the people who make the choices blindly abandon the old because its old and adopt the new because it's new. Or the other way round.

There are wonderful new hymns,including some which are very simple and involve a lot of repetition, like some of Sydney Carter's. And there are others that are dire, so bad you feel they must have been written by some dedicated enemy of religion as a way of driving people out of church. Unfortunately these often seem to be the ones that get wheeled out time and time again. (They still drive people away.)

For some reason I find cheerful songs are generally particularly depressing. I think that's probably because they feel like they're lying. Life can be pretty grim at times, and you have to find a way of getting through it and a way being joyful in the face of it. Cheerful happy stuff doesn't help with that, and that's where a lot of older hymns are better - they understand that; and the good new ones do as well.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:07 PM

We have a great pipe organ at our church - and someone who knows how to use it. She treats it like a Jag XKE which is a little much for my taste. We're always saying to each other " Sounds like Janet has been watching Phantom of the Opera" again. When she met with us to talk about our wedding we convinced her that we loved piano music.

I keep being reminded of disco when I hear praise music. Disco was very popular for a while but it didn't last. There just wasn't enough substance. If folks like it it's OK with me. But I'm not going out of the way to hear it.

Our group plays a lot of old hyms. Currently in our playlist are - What a friend we have in Jesus, Nearer my God to Thee, Just a closer walk with Thee, Are you washed in the blood of the lamb, You can tell the world, Fight on, and a lot of others. We've been known to NOT do a song because off the thelogy or to even tell folks on rare occasions that we like the song and not the message. Of coruse our musical director/ banjo player is a Harvard grad that teaches thelogy and can read from the ancient greek ect so we tend to trust his feelings on the subject.

Whenever we play in services we get a great reaction from our church members. But there always seems to be someone down in front that just glares at the banjo or mandolin - as if those instruments aren't supposed to be in church. Same with the bohran we used once. Anyone else have that problem ?

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 02:13 PM

So is the banjo played along with the organ? That'd make an interesting combination, and quite practical with a bit of amplification, or an organist who knows how to play relatively quietly.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 06:07 PM

No - the banjo and the organ play at different times. However she's been known to give us some bombastic lead-in music.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 06:47 PM

Ah, go on and try it Wesley - you could offend both lots at the same time. I think it could be a rivetting new sound. Genuine musical ecumenism.

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 08:48 PM

Well, having had my own music influenced by the likes of Emmy Lou Harris, the Bryds, Mason Proffit, Son House and the like, there is a large part of me that goes for the "Praise Music". Songs like "I Like the Chistain Life", "When He Calls", "Jesus is My Rock", etc. are songs that are very much part of me and my relationship with the Lord. *But* it's my medium and it is what I have to sing praise...

Hymns, for the most part seem a tad stuffy in their composition thou in the hands of trained singers are absolutely beautiful and rival any of the stuff we "folkies". And some folkie praise songs are actually lesser known hymns. If I am not mistaken, "I'll Fly Away" is found in some Catholic hymnals.

But bottom line, if you're singing praise, then God is 'a hearin' you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,trying to learn patience
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM

For years now, we've used a praise hymnal that only gets worse with every new edition. I think the musical inspirations come from summer camp singalongs, the worse kinds of broadway shows and TV commercials. But I notice that the latest edition irritates me because of the gender-inclusive language. Not that I necessarily object to it in principle, but just that I now get whiplash trying to recover from my last-edition habits, in which the Deity is a He, a Father, the Savior is a Son, and all that. But note: I'm getting annoyed with them for trifling with those good old songs that have always annoyed the beejeebers outta me. Then when I compare the lyrics of the great old hymns I love, well, some of THEM are pretty banal. So let's acknowledge that 90% of the music (poetry, film, TV) of any time period is junk, that the good stuff stands the test of time, and that we love has less to do with intrinsic quality than that it's the soundtrack to a large chunk of our lives. C'mon, haven't you caught yourself humming along with an oldies station and suddenly realized, "hey, I always thought that song was garbage..."

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 09:38 PM

Banjo and organ duo... that'd be like a cricket singing underneath Niagara Falls. I used to go to a Lutheran Church that ended up installing a church that was a little too large for Yankee stadium. When the organist played, every one's hair blew forward ... it was at the back of the church. After a few Sundays trying to sing, when I couldn't even hear myself, I gave up. It used to irritate me that all the music that was played in the church was by DEC... Dead European Composers. I can just about abide strummed nylon string guitars and the new songs at folk services, but when songs are in keys that can only be sung if you're a tenor, and the organ makes you feel like you're in a wind tunnel, I give up. (I did play banjo and lead old hymns in that same church, by the way. But only when the choir and the organist were on vacation..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 10:54 PM

IianC and Mr. Joe - if your "Christianity" is not based on Christ's blood sacrifice for your sins....I can unequivocally state that you ARE going to Hell....because your "christianity" is not "Christianity" .... for all of the other religions.... that's up to God to sort out the details.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

WYSIWYG - as a Christian preacher's wife - please explain the basic tenets of Christianity to this flock of song-birds.

---

Sorry, Gargoyle, but I can't buy the idea of a lamb, or a Christ, or anyone or anything being sacrificed to appease an angry God. How can we say that God is good, and then feel forced to appease Him by killing something?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:43 PM

I really identify with what mooh wrote (even down to the fact that I too play fingerstyle hymns for my own enjoyment).

I do feel like the music in the church is just symptomatic of changes that have made me feel like a stranger in church these days. I think that though church music has been moving toward a personal, relational Christianity, in the last few decades it's made a mad rush toward that exclusively.

A case in point -- if 50 years ago you had asked the typical conservative/fundamental/evangelical Christian if he was the "bride of Christ", he would have answered unequivocally that he was not. He would respond that the church is the "bride of Christ"

If you ask the same question in the same kind of church today you would almost certainly get an affirmative answer.

The music now is imitative of pop love songs because that is the kind of relationship the modern Christian is being told is true Christianity/the goal of Christianity.

If you listen to the individual voices in these praise services I think you'll find that it sounds like hundreds of solo singers singing the way they've heard their pop-christian music icons sing the song.

The beautiful (and very Christian) image of voices submitting to one another in harmony is missing. But then, the theology has moved toward the heightened importance of the individual.

It isn't that easy for both types of music to coexist. We use the arts to help us express our understanding of an invisible God and, though we know our imagery is imperfect, we take comfort in some sort of concrete picture of the God we envision in our imaginations.

With the modern praise expressing an image of a God so vastly different conceptually from the God of the hymn, it's no doubt going to cause a conflict.

I think that the new praise music is also not conceptually as related to the hymn as it is to chanting. This is a period in the protestant church where gnosticism is seeing a huge revival, and the praise music is filling the functional role of a chant -- that is, its intellectual content is secondary to its practical function of manipulating emotion.

Even when scripture is directly lifted for use in the music it is usually not becasue of the intellectual content of that scripture -- rather, it is used because it "sounds religious" and therefore is effective in manipulating the singers to "feel religious".

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:45 PM

'twas me above. I didn't realize I was cookie-less

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Oct 02 - 11:51 PM

The blood of the lamb, and blood of sacrifices goes back to a very primitive time when the blood was thought to be the life of an animal. When the blood was drained from an animal, it died, so I suppose that it was natural to associate the "life" as being the blood. The reference to the blood of the Lamb is more easily taken as meaning the life, or soul of Jesus.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hymns vs. 'Praise Music'
From: TNDARLN
Date: 08 Oct 02 - 12:02 AM

Several thoughts here:

Wilco, you know what my ideas are about old hymns and where to find 'em!

McGrath says "For some reason I find cheerful songs are generally particularly depressing. I think that's probably because they feel like they're lying. Life can be pretty grim at times, and you have to find a way of getting through it and a way being joyful in the face of it. Cheerful happy stuff doesn't help with that, and that's where a lot of older hymns are better - they understand that; and the good new ones do as well."

Well said!! I think that may be one of the reasons I love the minor/Dorian Sacred Harp tunes-- this life is full of troubles, but there's A Better Land a'comin' [and Burke, I know that's a major tune, but it makes the point] I draw strength from the knowledge that these old minor tunes were a source of strength for those gone on before- many of whom suffered more hardships than I'll ever know...

And Susan, I love the criteria you set forth. That's really what it's all about.

Today I was driving home from a weekend with my folks, and was still out of range of my favorite Moody Bible radio station, and had to [or did, for awhile]settle for a local Christian station's take on praise music. "Our God is awesome" over and over, and I about gagged. Now, I love "Our God is an Awesome God" [Rich Mullins] which has rhythm, rhymes, and presents a strong statement. I wondered how much difference was due to the placement of the word awesome in the line? Then, a bit later, they played several Brittany Spears-type jingles in a row...arghh.

OTOH, I have found myself singing the words to Confidence [270]in the Sacred Harp today, anticipating the President's speech. [and, not to go political, but to explain that, while he has my support, my faith is in One Much Higher] "Away my unbelieving fear; fear shall in me no more have place. My Saviour does not yet appear; He hides the Glory of His face. But shall I therefore let Him go, and basely to the tempter yield? No, in the strength Jesus, no, I never will give up my Shield"

These days we need strong words....or at least, I do.