early slang help

Subject: early slang help
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:36 AM

Yesterday I bought a nifty trio by Francesco Landini (1325-97). It's on a timeless theme: this new music is junk! The actual Italian words mean this:

I am Music, who, weeping, lament
to see my sweet and perfect utterances
being deserted by intelligent people
because ingnorance and vice are all around.
People are abandoning good and turn to evil.

...yada yada yada...

Everybody wishes to write musical notes,
to compose madrigals, catches and ballads,
each maintaining the unique quality of his own.
He who wants to be praised for a virtue
must first come to the front of the ship.



Does anybody have any idea what the two lines about coming to the front of the ship are referring to?

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 09:42 AM

That's a new one on me!

It could mean work your way up, pay your dues, learn your trade -- the front of the ship is always where the common hands were berthed, while officers got the stern quarters.

A

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:03 AM

This is only a guess. Could it have something to do with ship's figureheads? I think they were in use that early. Perhaps 'virtues' were common?

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM

Quite a few languages use the word for "ship" to refer to the nave of a church. Could that be the case here?

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:33 AM

Consider that the person on the bow of a ship or smaller vessel is the first one seen on deck as they approach the watchers on land. Granted, it is a weak simile as, by the time anyone is recognizable, almost anyone on deck can be seen. I believe, however, that the image the writer was trying for is as the leader, in front of the others, possibly directing the crew of followers toward a goal.

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:35 AM

Is the Italian for the front of a ship anything musical? Could be a pun that does not make sense in English.

However, in English this could almost be a cryptic crossword clue

must first come to the front of the ship.

Must first take a bow?

Probably completely useless but that's how this old gnomes brain works;-)

Cheers

Dave the gnome

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: The Admiral
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 10:51 AM

Don't knock it Dave, I love the way your brain works - I have the same way of seeing things at times!

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM

Thankee kindly Admiral, Sir. I noticed on another thread you admit to hailing from the good county of the Berks...

Have you ever fell down the cellar steps at the South Hills art centre near Bracknell? If so, have we ever bumped into each other? I am usualy oop t'north but I spent some very enjoyable months staying in and around Wokingham!

(Sorry for the thread drift Leeneia - at least it gets refreshed:-) )

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: early slang help
From:
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 12:36 PM

Depends on context and original language. What follows is a wild-ass guess: if your original text is Latin or Italian influenced by Latin (as seems likely for the pattern of literacy at the time), "the front of the ship" is likely to be "rostrum." The rostra of captured ships were displayed in the Forum (I think) at Rome, as trophies, and were pressed into service as speakers' platforms, so developing a different meaning (lectern, podium). So maybe what you've got is a mistranslation, somebody offering the classical meaning where the medieval is appropriate. On the other hand, if the original isn't realted to "rostrum," we are none the wiser than when we started, but you have provided me with the opportunity to put off productive work for a full five minutes. I thank you.

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:07 PM

Leeneia, can you post the original Italian? That may help. The suggestion by adavis (taking the rostrum) may be close to the mark; making yourself known and coming to the fore seems to be the intent of the last two lines.

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 01:08 PM

this is all wonderfully creative, that's for sure. I like Amos' supposition best. I didn't realize that the front of the ship was for the common sailors.

adavis: the words are Italian, and the phrase is guigner "alla proda." Sorry, no rostrum. "Proda" might be "prow."

By the way, a friend was telling me that in past centuries, all musical innovation was greeted with disapproval by somebody. For example, when they discovered B-flat, it was said that God hadn't invented this note, so it was immoral to play it.

The English started playing the interval of the third in the 1200's, I've been told, and it greeted with suspicion, if not dismay. I understand that the third was the 13th's century's answer to hot jazz. Now thirds are regarded as sweet, if not sissy. (Think the traditional harmony for Silent Night.)

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: GUEST,The Admiral
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 02:48 PM

Appologies for the thread drift Leeneia but to reply to John from Hull, yes Bracknell Folk Club (and Festival) used to be Happy Hunting Grounds but these days Maidendhead Folk Club (on a Thursday night) is my haunt - amongst others.

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: CraigS
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 03:57 PM

Perhaps some research on the source of the word PROWESS might be fruitful?

Subject: RE: early slang help
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 02 - 04:52 PM

The English is just bad or poetic translation. The phrase means "go to the fore." In other words, "-blow your horn, baby, no one else will."