Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: Felipa
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 03:53 PM

Risteard Mac Gabhann wrote "The hard life referred to in the ‘Cruach journey’ metaphor at the end of the first verse is probably a reference to the famous penitential pilgrimage mountain Cruach Phádraig in County Mayo. The song is attributed in some sources to the Mayo poet Riocard Bairéad (1739 - 1810)"

He also points out that, "There is a rich pattern of vowel rhymes arranged horizontally and vertically throughout each verse, which adds another dimension to the musicality of the composition."

(from Claisceadal, an unpublished song collection used in classes)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: Felipa
Date: 22 Mar 21 - 03:49 PM

returning to the previous discussion of "turas na Cruaiche", Risteard MacGabhann translates it as meaning that life will be without hardship (no need to do a "turas" or without the conditions or a pilgrimage walk)

Tá caladh a's cuan ann ag long a's ag bád,
There’s harbour and shelter there for ship and boat,
A's tá tuilleadh bua ann, níl turas na Cruaiche ann
And there’s more benefit there, there’s no hard life there,
Don té a dhéanfadh suas lena mhuirnín bán.
For the man who’d make up to his fair love.

Subject: RE: Mo Mhuirnín Bán
From: Felipa
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:38 PM

the tune in the recording linked with the previous message, is not the classic Fáth mo Bhuartha, although I think I hear some semblance. The theme is similar and you can see/hear the third verse is Sé fáth mo bhuartha nach bhfaighim cead cuairte sa ghleanntán uaigneach a mbíonn mo ghrá ...

Subject: RE: Mo Mhuirnín Bán
From: Felipa
Date: 19 Jul 16 - 04:06 PM

Mo Mhuirnín Bán with more verses than posted above in 2003
You can hear Brian O Domhnaill singing this song at http://old.tg4.ie/en/programmes/archive/brian-o-domhnaill/mo-mhuirnn-ban.html

MO MHUIRNÍN BÁN

Ní ar chnoc nó ar ísleacht atá mo mhiansa, ach i ngleanntán aoibhinn a mbíonn an duilliúr ag fás.
Goireann an chuach ann i gceann 'ach míosa, bíonn an chruithneacht bhuí ann is an coirce bán
Bíonn an t-uan is an lao ann, bric 'na scaoi ann, bíonn an eala aoibhinn ar an loch ag snámh
Bíonn an bheathóg críonna is a hárus déanta 'gus an mhil dhá taomadh do mo mhuirnín bán.

Tá mise tinn trélag agus ní fhéadaim inse le fiabhras tintrí mar gheall ar mná
Is gur ag mo mhuirnín fhéin atá na cúpla cruinn cíoch mar an fhaoileann bhán a bheadh ar loch ag snámh.
Nuair a théann mo ghrása ag siúl na sráide tig aoibh a gháire ar gach éinneach ann
A brollach mín geal atá ina cúpla páirteach mar bheadh an fhainleog bheag ar an nead gach lá.

Sé fáth mo bhuartha nach bhfaighim cead cuairte sa ghleanntán uaigneach a mbíonn mo ghrá
Tig im ar uachtar agus mil ar luachair 'gus i dtús an fhómhair bíos na crainn faoi bhláth.
Ní bhíonn gaoth aduaidh ann nó sneachta buan ann, is tá baile cuain ann ag long is ag bád
'S tá tuilleadh buaidh ann, níl daoirse cruaidh ann don té dhéanfadh suas lena mhuirnín bán.

Cé gurb aoibhinn an Corrshliabh i dtús an fhómhair is olc an cruth a thiocfadh air sa lá.
Nuair a shéideann an doineann ó alt na gaoithe a shiabfadh daoine amach ar an tsráid
Míle b'fhearr liom fhéin a bheith ar fhoscadh na maolchnoic ná ag seoladh buaibh ar 'ach taobh den bhán.
Ins an áit a mbíonn na torthaí craobhach, bíonn an coileach fraoich ann agus an chearc is a hál.

Taobh thall den teorann atá mo rún-searc, an mhaiseach mhómhar na gcíoch glan cruinn.
Is gurb ar an tórraimh a chuir mise eolas is d'fhiafair mé mórán fana deá-mhéin ann.
Is tuirseach brónach a bhím gach Domhnach is mé ag sileadh deora mar gur fada an lá
'Gus a Rí na Glóire cha bhím i bhfad beo, mura bhfaighidh mé póg ó mo mhuirnín bán.

Dhéanfainn m'éagaoin leatsa, a chéadghrá, dá measfainn fhéin go mbeadh maith domh ann.
Mar is tú a réab mo chroí ina mhíle píosaí 'gus d'fhág na néaltaí seo fríd mo cheann
A mhaiseach bhéasach na malaí caola is na gcurcán gléigeal atá fáinneach fionn.
Ó triall a m'fhéachaint agus mé ag feitheamh go géar leat 'gus mé cloite i ngrá le mo mhuirnín bán.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: Felipa
Date: 30 Jun 16 - 05:53 PM

there are many recordings of Fáth mo bhuartha online, especially on youtube. It tends to be played more often these days as a slow air more than sung. Here is one recording from Irish tv via youtube
Tim Dennehy

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:43 AM

http://www.cumannchluainard.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/CISTe-ceoil.pdf

That PDF file (which has an index at the end of the 400-ish page document) seems like it could be a good resource for Irish speakers. I know no Irish and possibly it's a well-known book of verse. If so, my apologies. If not--well, there you go.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST,Terry Murphy
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:22 AM

Liam Clancy recorded it w/ Tommy Makem on the 1976 lp "Makem and Clancy"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 14 - 10:06 AM

Just one comment - mín means 'smooth', not 'fine'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 03:52 PM

Siobhan
English translation will never do justice to old Irish. Enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:08 AM

Pat

That's true - but it won't always survive the browser/operating system combination, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: fada for Irisdh vowels
From: GUEST,Pat 'theVerse'
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:05 AM

On most querty keyboards you can type a fada á é í ó ú over vowels pressing voweland Alt Gr key at same time.

For capital letters Shift/Ctrl/Alt with vowel Key, Á É Í Ó Ú.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 04:34 PM

OK - a quick Google shows why it is possible that Canada-related songs might be fitted to this air. I'd be interested to hear them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM

hmmmm.....

Seems unlikely. Let us know who you are and what context you heard it in, please - otherwise the "Anonymous GUEST" guillotine is likely to fall.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha/Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM

I had heard that recently two new verses about the building of the Rideau canal and Grosse Ile had been added to this song. Anyone know anything about this?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha-Reason for my Sorrow
From: GUEST,bell
Date: 06 Aug 08 - 04:17 PM

i heard the youtube video of brian owens playing "irish flute slow air" (se fath mo buartha..spelling??) anyway i was woundering if any of you knew where i could get/print off the sheet music for this on the flute.

thank you :)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha-Reason for my Sor
From: Gulliver
Date: 10 Jun 08 - 03:21 PM

There are several versions on Youtube. Here's the Dubliners version:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aPf92gtptFE

Don

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath Mo Bhuartha-Reason for my Sor
From: GUEST,irishflute
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 03:45 PM

Does anyone know where I can get the music for this?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: 'S é Fath mo Bhuartha
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:41 AM

Fáth Mo Bhuartha is also published in Mícheál Ó hEidhin, Cas Amhrán. Indreabhán: Cló Iar-Chonnachta , 1997 (4th printing; first published Cló Cois-Fharraige, 1975) .

The first two verses are much the same as in other sources. Ó hEidhin has 'duifean' croi (a cloudy, overcast heart = melancholy), but that has much the same sense as 'duibheagán croi'. Here is the third verse:

Is ar shliabh go cinnte atá stór mo chroíse
Is ní chodlaím oíche ach ag déanamh bróin.
'S í colm an tsíoda í, 's í méara míne í,
Béal tanaí dílis, is mheall sí 'lán;
Ba bhinne liom uaim í sna gleannta ar uaigneas
Ná ceilliúr cuaiche is ná ceol na n-éan,
Is gurbh fhearr ón uair sin dá mba liom an stuabhean
Ná lámh in uachtar ar Chlanna Gael.

(very rough translation: The love of my heart is surely on the mountain and I won't sleep in the night for I'll be mourning. She's the silken dove, a gracious figure(?or she of the fine fingers?), she enticed many with her slender mouth (?). It would be/was sweeter to be with her in the secluded glen than [to hear] the cuckoo and the music of the birds. And it would be better to have the handsome/majestic woman than to have control of the tribes of the Gael)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fath mo Bhuartha
From: Felipa
Date: 17 May 03 - 02:40 PM

The usual version of tune and words is published in Nollaig Ó hUrmoltaigh, Ceolta Uladh 4 Dept of Celtic, Queen's University of Belfast, circa 1974. The compiler says that although this is a song from the province of Connacht it is also commonly sung further north.

Deirdre Ní Fhlionn, singer and harpist whose style is a bit like Mary O'Hara, recorded Fath Mo Bhuartha on a Folkways album. It's probably not available now; I recall Alice Flynn and someone else on Mudcat mentioned they had copies of it, as do I.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 17 May 03 - 11:18 AM

My friends - I am really moved by your great interest for my concern, especially also by the fact that you gave me my own version of this beautiful song *sniff* :-)) Finally some fame.

Don't worry. I am not intending to create a singable translation. Even a brutal monster like me is shuddering at the thought of that much violence. What I want is only to give a short introduction to what the song is about in order to give the listener a little access to its character, its spirit. Without that or if I only mentioned that this is a love song I would leave my audience alone with the mere acoustic impression but a song is much more. BTW I can't help thinking that the noise level is simply lower when they know what they are listening to even though they don't understand the words.

What I am dreaming of and what I am working on is giving such introductions as a part of the song when I am already playing the music. But that is difficult - ever tried to talk prose while playing a song?

Re idioms etc: Calling a forest "nut-filled" or "butter on cream" are expressions much too charming to not translate them literally, especially when a song does not tell a story but lives from its poetry. Of course this can only be done as long as it is clear what is meant. When I must be aware of provoking a misunderstanding I might even have to consider omitting the whole thing. However, I might get a laugh if I keep the "thousand treasures". Calling a lover "Schatz" (treasure) is quite common in german - but only in singular. A plurality of treasures inevitably reminds one of a plurality of lovers *grin*. Therefore I am of course much more interested in literal translations than in good english. Also IMO the risk of corrupting the meaning of something when it is translated from irish to english and then from english to german too freely is higher than the risk of being misunderstood when giving the literal translation.

Felipa - I do know wild hazel bushes. Outside of forests. However, as I said I also know the difference between irish forests and german ones. The latter are well cultivated assemblies of vertical poles, all trees of the same kind and the same age, often with any brushwood carefully suppressed until it doesn't get enough light to grow. No chance for nuts inside of a german forest any more...

Many heart-felt thanks to everybody again.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 16 May 03 - 07:44 AM

Thanks, Felipa for the information on hazel nuts and nutty forests. I am really enjoying the continued discussion on this song. I often cringe on looking back at my attempts to translate songs from Irish, but they sometimes help me to understand the song a little better. The suggestions about the meanings of im ar uachtar and Is i dtús an fhómhair a bhíonn na crainn faoi bhláth. The cnómhar/clómhar mix up was atleast my fault. It was printed that way on the CD. I didn't like the word, but thought it might have been an old, obsolete word. I came across other versions with the word cnómhar later. Having friends who made a CD and hearing about all the hands it will go through in the production, I realise how these errors can happen.

It was nice to see this thread at the top again. I was singing this song yesterday morning to celebrate my recovery from jaw surgery.

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 16 May 03 - 04:15 AM

I respect your reserve, Felipina. I used to be a translator myself, so I'm well aware of the pitfalls, but it can still be fun to attempt even literary translations as long as one is aware of their limitations. After all, James Joyce encouraged translation of even Finnegans Wake. My wife is French, and we have brought our children up bilingual, so we do get some whimsical fun out of literal translations of idiomatic expressions or deliberate mistranslations of faux amis. For example, in the family we would commonly say that it's raining strings, or that we are eating raped carrots.

I just thought that if Joerg wants to have a go at a translation of this song, it would be best if he had as clear as possible an understanding of the literal meaning of the lines, and as much as can be conveyed of the associations of ideas suggested by them. It's then up to him to see what associations of ideas he can suggest in a German translation.

I wouldn't have taken "Bíonn mil ar luachair ann" to refer to dewdrops, but welcome that as a possible alternative interpretation. Coupled with "is im ar uachtar" I took the whole line to be a variant of "a land flowing with milk and honey", though "im ar uachtar" (butter on top/over cream) does rather seem to suggest a rather cholesterol-intensive diet. Blessed are the cheesemakers, including more generally those involved in the dairy industry.

The next line refers to the trees blossoming rather than the flowers blooming at the start of the autumn. I was in Yosemite at Easter and learned that at some high altitudes where the snow is almost eternal, spring doesn't come till September. Useless, barely relevant but interesting fact.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'Sé Fáth mo Bhuartha
From: Felipa
Date: 15 May 03 - 08:04 PM

Oh, I didn't notice that Joerg typed in "na coillte clómhar" instead of "na coillte cnómhar", "cnó" being a word for nut. Brían had spelled it correctly.

There are loads of hazel trees in Ireland. They used to be popular for coppicing. The "scolb", a hook for holding a bundle of thatch down on the roof, is still often made from hazel. Not that the country is still full of thatched houses, but there are some. Joerg probably has an incorrect image of big, glossy hazelnuts; the uncultivated ones are smaller. Though a romanticised image would fit the song okay

No, I'm not keen to do translations. Did you not notice that I left this one to Brían? Between his work and the verse from the Dubliners, readers have a good enough idea of the gist of the poem. I saw a few messages about 'Sé Fath mo Bhuartha on one of the Gaelic-L discussion groups(Gaeilge-A, etc) and there was only one response to a query about "mil ar luachair" that the word "mil", honey, is used figuratively to describe the dew drops glistening on the rushes.

I'm not clear whether Joerg intends to compose a SINGABLE translation into German. Of course, often in translation it is more important to convey the sense of the words rather than to translate them literally.
I think an easy way to illustrate this principle is to think about idioms. In some languages it rains "frogs", but I should translate that into English as "cats and dogs". The English "swimming against the stream" becomes "ag snámh in aghaidh an easa", "swimming against the waterfall" in Irish. If I was translating from the Irish, I might want to convert the expression to the usual English one. At other times I might choose to be more literal in order to emphasize the exotic nature of the material, or in this case because the Irish expression sounds stronger.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Mr Happy
Date: 15 May 03 - 06:00 PM

and there's harbour and shelter there for every boat that sails
there are good things to share there, you can walk without care there
and you're at peace with the love of your heart

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 15 May 03 - 12:28 PM

I see some scope for slight improvements in Joerg's English translation, Philo, but wouldn't be able to do a 100% job on it. Do you want to have a go, so that we're left with something really accurate? And while you're at it, would you have the courage to tidy up the Irish version, as I presume for example that the woods are indeed nutty, rather than a renewable source of newsprint?

And Joerg, if you then want to post your draft German translation, I'd be glad to comment on it as the half-life of my German is still substantially better than that of my Irish.

Subject: Tune Add: MO MHUIRNÍN BÁN
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 03 - 12:12 PM

X:1
T:MO MHUIRNÍN BÁN
N:From the book P Mac Seáin, Ceolta Theilinn (Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies at Queen's Univerity, 1973)
N:A version of 'S é fath mo bhuartha collected in Teelin, Co Donegal by Pádraig Mac Seáin
I:abc2nwc
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:D
z2(A G) F E|D2F A d e/2 c/2|(d B) A2F/2 G/2 A G/2 F/2|
w:'Sé_ fath mo bhuardhar-tha, nach bhfaighim cead_ suaimh_-nis In-sa ghleann-tán_
F3/2 E/2 D E D D|D4(A G) F E|D D F A d (d/2 B/2)|
w:uaig-neach seo a mbíonn mo ghrádh.Tig_ im ar uach-tar ann is mil ar_
(d B) A2F/2 G/2 A F/2 E/2|F3/2 E/2 D E D/2 D3/2|D4A A B c|
w:lua_-chair'S le méith na_ huai-re 'bíos na tor-tha 'fás. Ní bhíonn gaoth_
d2e d (3cAB|(=c2d2)e (3ddc|A2G E D D|
w:Tá ca-ladh is cuan ann ag loing 's~ag
E4A G F E|D2F A d e/2 c/2|(d B) A2|
w:bád. Tá_ tui-lleadh buaidh' air, níl doir-se_ cruaidhe_ ann,
F/2 G/2 A F E|F E D E D D|D4z2
w:Dá_ ndéan-tá_ su-as le do Mhuir-nín Bán

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 03 - 12:01 PM

*grin* I got that as well...I guess I *AM* learning a bit here!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath mo Bhuartha
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:55 AM

by the way, "Cuisle an Cheoil" is still in print, available from "An Gum", 56 songs with music and some background info (in Irish only) and I think it costs about 4 euro.

Joerg also commented on how I dug up this thread, but it was easier than he thought. I try to search for key words that are distinctive and that don't have any diacritical marks. A search for "Bhuartha" ws successful because the correct spelling is used within the thread, although not in the thread title.

(Another possiblity of course is to do wildcat searches, but I think that would be more complicated)

There is a problem however with newer threads which aren't yet covered by the supersearch facility. You have to find them using the filter and refresh so you have to know - or correctly guess - a word in the actual title of the thread.

notice that MMario and I have both changed the post subject, as he suggests (though I don't always remember to do this)

plumber - it took me a moment to figure out who "Seosamh Ó Clóin" was - good one!

Subject: Fath mo Bhuartha
From: MMario
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:08 AM

When there are alternate spellings, etc - you can always change the POST subject; which helps.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 15 May 03 - 11:04 AM

Good thread.

The Chieftains' (or was it still Ceoltóirí Cualann's?) instrumental version of the tune was one of the first pieces that got me playing the tin whistle, but in the intervening 30 years or so I had forgotten all about it. I'll give it a lash at the Belgian Uilleann Pipers' tionól this weekend.

Any chance that a friendly Seosamh Ó Clóin could "correct" the thread title and make it more search-engine-friendly by changing it to "Fath mo Bhuartha" so that future seekers can resurrect it more easily?

And in passing, a "thank you" to the Gaelic scholars - especially Philippa, obviously - who give us lots of reliable input. I have occasionally chipped in with replies to questions about Irish on the basis of remnants of what I learned in school, but it is a pleasure in an era or rampant béarlachas to defer to people who really know what they're talking about.

Subject: Lyr Add: Mo Mhuirnin Ban , Se Fath mo Bhuartha
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 15 May 03 - 09:27 AM

A version of 'S é fath mo bhuartha collected in Teelin, Co Donegal by Pádraig Mac Seáin. He also collected two different versions in nearby Gleann Cholm Cille.
From the book P Mac Seáin, Ceolta Theilinn (Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies at Queen's Univerity, 1973). I have retained the spelling as in the book, rather than standardized spellings such as mo bhuartha for mo bhuardhartha, foghlaim for foghluim, mo ghrá for mo ghradh and bua, crua for buaidh' , cruaidhe.

It's interesting how 'níl turas na Cruaich' ann' in one version is 'níl doirse crua(idhe) ann'; which line is the 'mondegreen'?

I've sent a copy of the sheet-music from the book to MMario


MO MHUIRNÍN BÁN ('Sé fath mo bhuartha)

'Sé fath mo bhuardhartha, nach bhfaighim cead suaimhnis
Ins an ghleanntán uaigneach seo a mbíonn mo ghrádh.
Tig im ar uachtar ann 's mil ar luachair
'S le méith na huaire 'bíos na tortha ' fás.
Ní bhíonn gaoth tuaidh ann ná sneachta buan;
Tá caladh is cuan ann ag loing 's ag bád.
Tá tuilleadh buaidh' air, níl doirse cruaidhe ann,
Dá ndéantá suas le do Mhuirnín Bán

Ní ar shliabh na ar fhraochlach atá mo mhian-sa
Ach ar thalta mine, a dtig meas is bláth.
Tá an chuach ag glaoidh ann i mbárra craobh ann;
Tá an eorna bhuidhe ann 's a' coirce bán;
Tá an loch is aoibhne ann, a dtig bric 'na scaoith ann;
Tá an fiadh 'na luighe ann 's an eala a' snámh;
Tá an bheach is críonna ann 's a háras díonta
'S tá mil 'a taomadh ar mo Mhuirnín Bán

Agus shíl mé, ' stóirín tá aoibhiúil óg deas,
Go déanfá foghluim ar éalódh liom;
'S nach bhfuil tráthnóna nó maidin reoite
Nach tú an réalt eolais a bhí 'gabhail romham,
Ag siúl na mboíthre 's na gcoillte ró-ghlas,
Ní bheadh orm brón ná tuirse croidhe;
Ach mé bheith pósta ar bhláth na hóige
'S í ' siúl go státúil le mo thaoibh.

Summary translation

The cause of my sorrow is that I get no quietude in this lonely hollow were my love dwells. It is fertile and temperate [There is butter, cream , honey and fruit there, no north wind or lasting snow, there's a port and harbour for ships,] and it would be better yet if you were reconciled with your fair-haired darling.

My love's not on the hillside but in the fertile plain. There one finds the cuckoo calling at the top of the branches, barley, oats, a fine lough full of trout, deer, the swan, the wise bee and honey in abundance for my fair-haired darling.

I thought, lovely young sweetheart, you'd learn to elope with me and that you'd be my star of knowledge morning and eve. Were I married to the flower of youth and she stately by my side, I'd never be sorrowful.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 10:56 PM

Thanks for this information, Brían. You know I was wondering whether I had missed something in the songs I heard, but of course this is a detail an outsider like me can hardly notice.

This reminds me of a discussion some time ago here in the Mudcat about whether there was any german folk music, and if so, where. I was lurking a little but didn't post anything - maybe also because I did not know how to contribute something intelligent. They were discussing songs which might be compared to 'Once In A Stilly Night' or 'The Meeting Of The Waters' i.e. nothing I would call folk songs and of course their misuse by Hitler. Just about that time I dropped into some better party in a very small village here in Bavaria. And there they were. Mainly small groups doing real folk songs as well as instrumentals I never had heard before - and with considerable skill. They are almost invisible to me, how should a foreigner ever get the chance to listen to that kind of music? I am also convinced that they are doing some recordings but these are not marketed at all, they are given as a present to 'friends' - who might even dump them into the waste box. There is german folk music, and you would be charmed of it, but it is extremely shy. It is hiding from the world due to bad experience. Sad but true.

Also sad that whenever I get to Ireland I have to listen to the same old dancing tunes (of course these are quite different tunes but they sound all the same) played for rucksack tourists who are supposed to want them since they are trying to look as if they were listening because they either want to be polite or want an excuse for having another beer. That's business - calming them down with something like 'Se fadh mo bhuartha' wouldn't be good for the beer sales.

Keep the candle burning.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 01:11 PM

I can get the gist of it. It's sung to the tune of NELL FLAHERTY'S DRAKE. I'll see if I can get atleast some pieces of it.

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From:
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 12:29 PM

Brían, that's hilarious! Do you have the words to Caoirigh na Japs? I've got to sing that if you do! I'd a have a few people who'd just crack up to hear it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 18 Apr 03 - 08:58 AM

What I am talking about is something that might not be apparent on a recording. The singer is expressing a shared experience of history, culture, language & music to the audience. Traditionally, the singer may turn aeay from the audience or pull his hat over his head. This is not so common now as singers are more often singing into a microphone. At the end of the song, the singer will speak the last few words of the song. This is a signal to the audience that the song is over and we are returning back to reality. The singer will often break into English(a symbol of the decaying Gaeilic culture)an inject something humorous or shocking to bring the audience back to reality . A good example of this device is Joe Heaney's performace of CAILLEACH AN AIRGEAD where he ends the song by saying, "D'íosfaidh sí feoil ar Friday and Saturday"(She would eat meat on Friday and Saturday)-a shocking even sinful thing to do! I could come up with some more, but they are often missing in rcordings and more apparent in live performances if you can find them. There is a song by Darach Ó Catháin (Traditional Irish Unaccompanied Singing CAOIRIGH NA JAPS about a flock of sheep that strayed onto someone elses land. They are spotted in Africa, France, Dover England, Dakota. They are riding the ferry, eating clover, smoking cigars. Suddenly, the last line comes, spoken: "Gur dtainig siad ar ais"("-that they came home").

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 10:24 PM

Brían - actually I was planning to say a big thank you and no longer annoy anybody but you said that an ending that shocks the listener seems to be a characteristic of traditional songs. I don't consider myself an expert in irish traditional songs but meanwhile I am knowing at least so many of them that I have to look around a little in order to find something new in music shops (this includes music shops in Dublin). I never sensed a shocking ending to be a characteristic of what I got to know of irish traditional songs, so please forgive me this one last question: What songs are you thinking of when you say that?

Joerg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 17 Apr 03 - 07:40 AM

Jeorg, the song appears to have a pastoal theme which means it is portraying an idealised view of the poet's world. The song appears to hae a Garden of Eden quality where one can reach up and pick fruit off the trees, the weather is always fine and you get the girl of your dreams. This type of song was believed to have been brought to Ireland by the Norman invaders.

There does seem to be an implied eroticism in the images of a land flowing with milk and honey, fruit-filled trees, etc...

then of course, there's the part where he places his hand on his sweetheart's breast :-) . This type of an ending that shocks the listener to their senses at the end of a long involved, reflective song seems to be another characteristic of traditional songs

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 10:50 PM

AKS - thank you for the text and especially thank you for giving the source. This is because I gave up browsing Dubliners albums. There are so many of them and when I look at one I know all the songs (at least it seems so to me) so if there should be something I would be interested in I have a good chance to not even notice it. But I can't afford buying everything they throw on the market. I would pay three to six times for every song.

In German it is also common to express something positive with a negation of a negative clause or v.v. What is strange to me is expressing THE WHOLE of the positive with a negation of ONE RESTRICTED ASPECT of the negative clause. You see if something is to taste good it must not taste too bitter, yes, but it also must not taste too sour, it must not taste too sweet, it must not taste of something that was eaten before and so on. Telling me that something won't taste bitter does not exclude all of the many other possibilities of tasting bad, and so it does not tell me that it will taste good. I am just wondering if this understanding was different in former times because I just encountered a statement I did not understand for the same reason I did not understand another statement before which was written in a completely different language, however, both statements are from ancient texts.

Brían - you said 'at least'. Aside from the nuts and the last line: Do the words sound erotic in Gaelic? My impression of the english translation is only poetic but without any ... uh ...

Felipa - acorns, hickory nuts etc are not considered to be nuts in german understanding. Hazel nuts are, but hazel bushes seldom grow inside of a forest - at least in Germany and I know that an irish forest is something very different from a german forest *sigh*. That's something which makes the picture of a forest with nuts in it still more charming to me.

Have fun.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se fath mo bhuartha
From: Felipa
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM

Of course you can find nuts in forests! Hazel nuts, acorns, hickory nuts. etc.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 08:22 AM

I would say that a sexual connotation is implied at least in the abundance and fertility of the paradise that the author imagines.

That does seem to be a pretty good translation of the song in the Dubliner's version.

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: AKS
Date: 16 Apr 03 - 06:12 AM

Jörg, here's the English of the Dubliners' version, found on 'Revolution' collection, eg. It is not sung, but read, and only the first verse, both in G. (Kiaran) and in E. (Ronnie):

It is the reason of my sorrow that I'm forbidden to visit
the lonely glen where my loved one is
I'd find butter and cream there and honey galore
and even in autumn, there are blossoms on the trees
no north wind blows there, you see no winter snows there
they have harbour and shelter for every boat that sail
there are good things to share there, you can walk without care there
if you're at peace with the love of your heart

AKS

ps In Finnish speech, expressing something positive with a negative clause (or vice - versa) would not be uncommon at all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 11:42 PM

GUEST - I also found this very quickly but I also found out very quickly that this is not a translation but a poem with the same title. It picks up some few concepts from the original lyrics but places them in different context so the meaning is completely different from what the original test says. The advantage is that it rhymes and the author has also succeeded in making a text that can be sung to the melody of the original song.

Some people accept things like this one. Personally I object to them because IMHO the magic of the original song is closely related to the original language and especially its sound. Moreover I know a couple of german text versions of russian songs which also rhyme and can be sung to the original melody but are simply c**p: Making it rhyme and obeying the measure takes so much effort that an author will hardly be able to tell sane things in addition to that.

Regarding the above I could say I would not be very charmed by a green-haired woman whose body looks like a salmon but this would be unobjective. It is the lack of sense in the pictures given what disappoints me. Is green barley shining that much that a woman's hair shining the same way would impress me? Hardly. Or if her body was moving like a salmon? Hardly (wrong direction :-). It rhymes but what is said is -uh- boring, at the very edge of nonsense.

Brían - thanks for your explanation and the link. First I was a little embarassed wondering whether I am getting old because I wasn't able to figure this out myself. But I guess I never was and I never will be. I remember a former occasion whe a statement just like this one confused me: When I was a child I heard the Grimm Brothers' story of that brave little tailor who bought himself not so few of plum-jam, put it on a slice of bread and said "This won't taste bitter." I then spent some time wondering why plum-jam tastes bitter if you don't put it on a slice of bread before I realized that he only wanted to say "This will taste good." What if it tasted like a dead rat?

The example with the pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick is still more extreme: No pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick means no hardship. Hence a pilgrimage to Jerusalem is no hardship? Moreover, getting hanged - this not even being a pilgrimage at all - is pleasant, or what?

Mentioning the lack of something very special in order to express the opposite of some very general feature of this special thing is a thread I simply can't follow. Funny that these two (only!) examples I know both come from elderly texts. Were people in former times used to express their thoughts that way?

Also - "the nut filled forests". *BG* That's poetry. What comes to my mind when I think of a forest and what it is filled with? Trees - of course. Leaves - yes. Game - yes. Fresh air - yes. Peace - still ok. NUTS??? Nuts are grown on specially cultivated trees whose arrangement does not look like a forest at all. Never found many nuts in a forest. Or was that different in former times? Especially in Ireland?

BTW - has 'nuts' the same indecent additional meaning in Gaelic as it has in English? In German it has not - you would have to supply 'eggs'.

Can't remember the last time a song gave me so much fun and so many insights.

Joerg

Subject: Lyr Add: 'TIS MY BITTER SORROW
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 12:02 PM

I fond this at http://mitglied.lycos.de/fiddler/norway01/

'TIS MY BITTER SORROW
(Sé Fáth Mo Bhuartha: traditional, translation by Bryan McMahon)

'Tis my bitter sorrow that by tomorrow
I go not out to my true love's bower
Where the stream that's running spills purest honey
And in wintertime see, the branch in flower.
No frost, no snowing; no red wind blowing
By the bright abode of my secret queen
But her body moving with the salmon's beauty
And her hair ashine like the barley green.

Oh may God be praised for young women's laughter
Tho' it scald the heart of one grey and cold
And may God be praised for the bitter rapture
That takes my body as in days of old
For Satan has me as a black companion
When I cast my thoughts on what might have been
On her body moving with the salmon's beauty
And her hair ashine like the barley green.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 15 Apr 03 - 01:28 AM

Jeorg,

The author is describing a place like the Garden of Eden. There are many wonderful things there: nice weather, a safe harbor,butter & Honey, and many more gifts, bua besides. He contrasts this easy life with a pilgrimage to Croach Patrick, a difficult journey filled with fasting and sacrifice.

To the author, the key to the prize, bua is winning the affections of his sweetheart.

I hope this explains it a little better.

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 10:44 PM

Philippa, Brían - thank you that is quite enlightening although not completely. The two lines seem to mean "There are more gifts there, no pilgrimage (necessary) for the one who would win the affections of the fair sweetheart." Still - should that be understood as "No pilgrimage necessary IN ORDER TO WIN the ..." (because she's willing anyway, no need to pray for it) or "No pilgrimage necessary WHEN HAVING WON the fair sweethart" (in order to gain peace of mind or something like that, she will give it to you)?

Sorry, I am that much of an outsider that I don't even know what Croagh Patrick is (a peak?) neither the bluestacks. That's what I meant with "secret meaning". I know that "hadj" (spelling?) is a pilgrimage to Mekka but "croagh turas" is a little harder to figure out.

Brían - I think it's not that important whether the honey is on rushes or glittering. Maybe both. But thanks for the comment.

You are giving me quite a lot at he moment.

Joerg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 08:13 AM

In Niall Ó Dónaill's Fóclóir Gaeilge-Béarla,tuaras na Cruaiche is translated as a pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick, at least the way I understand it. One would assume it is a pilgrimage to some peak.

Also a line appears to be ambiguous to me:

Bíonn mil ar luachair ann seems to be literally, Honey on rushes. Luachair however, seems to have another connotation: bright, glittering.

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fath mo Bhuartha
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 14 Apr 03 - 04:52 AM

"where is "Croagh Patrick" in the gaelic words?"
turas na Cruaiche
cruach = Croagh turas being a pilgrimage, so one assumes it is Croagh Patrick rather than for instance na Cruacha Gorma, the bluestacks

[for]the person who would win the fair sweetheart

Subject: Lyr Add: 'SÉ FÁTH MO BHUARTHA / CAUSE OF MY SORROW
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 10:53 PM

Felipa - thanks a million for taking me here and thanks to Brían for the prompt reaction. I never would have found that thread myself. I never would have looked for something like "Bhuar Tha". What's the matter with those search engines? The are so goddamn smart but - I started with searching for "buartha" as given on the CD I am owning. No results. "fadh mo" took me to "bhuartha". Great. With this I found that thread 'Songs in Irish language' where Brían (first?) posted the words but not the translation. I will later try your trick of searching for "fádh mo bhuartha" instead of "fadh mo bhuartha" as I already did. Very smart, you search engine programmers.

Now - in order to contribute a little work myself, and hoping to make it a little easier to be found by search engines - let me try to summarize. The words given here are

'SÉ FÁTH MO BHUARTHA

Sé fáth mo bhuartha nach bhfaighaim cead cuarta
Sa ngleanntán uaigneach ina mbíonn mo ghrá;
Bíonn mil ar luachair ann is im ar uachtar
Is i dtús an fhómhair a bhíonn na crainn faoi bhláth.
Níl gaoith aduaidh ann, níl sneachta buan ann;
Tá caladh is cuan ann ag loing 's ag bád;
Tá tuilleadh bua ann, 's níl tuaras na Cruaiche ann,
An té a dhéanfá suas lena mhuirnín bán.

Agus shíl mé a stóirín, nuair a bhí tú óg deas,
Go ndéanfá foghlaim ar éalú liom;
Is nach bhfuil tráthnóna ná maidin Domhnaigh,
Nach tú an réalt eolais a bhí ag gabháil romham.
Ag siúl na móinte is na coillte clómhar,
Ní bheadh orm brón nó duibheagán croi
Ach mé bheith pósta le mo mhíle stóirín,
Is mo lámh go bródúil ar a brollach mín.

The translation is

IT IS THE CAUSE OF MY SORROW

It is the cause of my sorrow that I can't visit
The lonely glen where my love dwells.
There is butter and honey there
And the flowers bloom at the beginning of autumn.
There is no north wind, no enduring snow.
There is a harbour for ships and boats there.
There are more gifts there, no pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick,
Whoever would win the affections of a fair sweetheart.

I thought, my treasure, because you were fair and young,
I would teach you how to elope with me.
Either evening or Sunday morning,
Aren't you the guiding star that goes before me.
Walking the bogs and the nut filled forests,
I would have no sorrow nor emptiness in my heart.
I will be married to my thousand treasures,
My hand proudly on her fine breast.

Am I understanding this as you meant it? Any corrections before I have learned some nonsense by heart would be very welcome to me. Regarding the translation - I will anyway first have to translate this into German before I can use it. So getting the words as literally as possible is much more important to me than getting them in good English. To me this is an issue of Gaelic and German - English is a technical problem to be solved in between.

The statement "There are more gifts there, no pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick, whoever would win the affections of a fair sweetheart" does not seem very consistent to me - in other words: Huh? Is there any hidden or secret meaning I can't see? And where is "Croagh Patrick" in the Gaelic words?

Thank you all again.

Joerg

Superfluous line breaks deleted. --JoeClone, 21-Apr-03.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Se Fadh mo Bhuar Tha
From: Brían
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 08:02 AM

Ag siúl na móinte is na coillte cnómhar = Walking the bogs and the nut filled forests.

Ní bheadh orm brón nó duibheagán croi = I would have no sorrow nor emptiness in my heart.

Brían

Subject: RE: translation required: 'SÉ FÁTH MO BHUARTHA
From: Felipa
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM

just copying off a new thread, today's message from Joerg
didn't the Dubliners recite a verse in English?

Date: 12 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM

Hello everybody,

About two years ago there was a thread named 'Songs in Irish Language' where Brían posted the lyrics of 'SÉ FÁTH MO BHUARTHA' and promised to provide a translation if anybody was interested.

Brían, are you still around? Or anybody else of the Gaelic speakers? Aíne? I ran into this song, now I'm wrestling with it, and it's GREAT fun! A translation would not only help me to memorize the lyrics but also help my audience to accept the song itself. (It is kind of different from what is usually heard today, isn't it?)

BTW there seems to be a line missing in Brían's lyrics. After "Ag siúl na móinte is na coillte clómhar" shouldn't there be something like "Ní bheadh orm brón nó duibheagán croi" or something like that?

I must say 'or something like that' because I am really confused with the spelling of the different text versions of this song I found on the net. Is there any way to look up a word you read somewhere in a dictionary? Every hint would be greatly appreciated.

Peace to you all.

Joerg