The sniper and Islam

Subject: The sniper and Islam
From:
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM

A gunman named Muhammad has terrorized the Washington area for weeks. He was a follower of Louis Farrakhan and joined the security detail at the Million Man March in Washington in 1996.

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Lengthy cut-and-paste posts on non-music topics are not permitted at Mudcat. You can find Mr. Frum's article here (click). I deleted the bulk of the original message.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: PeteBoom
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:06 PM

I'm wondering what Louis Farrakhan has to do with Islam? Nice cut and paste job, troll.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:57 PM

If the sniper was affiliated with any group even close to the right side of the political spectrum, the denunciations would be loud and continuous. Affiliated however vaguely with a group which casts itself in opposition to western values and the silence is deafening.
You have to wonder why.
Mark

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 07:15 PM

Dear Troll,

Fuck off.

Best Wishes,
Spaw

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:07 PM

Hey, listen, I can change my name to Micheal Jordan but that ain't gonna improve my jump shot one danged bit. John Mohammed, John the Baptish, John Lennon, Porta-John, Johnny-Come-Lately, John Doe, Dear John, Johnny Appleseed or John Wilson, this guy was one thing and one thing only: a sick man with a gun!

You've tried to stir up this thing before, Trollster, and it didn't do too well the last time. Tell, ya' what. Why don't you spend a little time with *sheep in wloves clothing* so-called Christains, who are beating drums for actions that would make Jesus fall to his knees and puke. You spend a little time with these folks and you'll come away with a new perspective on just who is trying to f**k over whom!

Also, while you're at if ya' might want to check on the per capita income of the folks you think are the bad guys verses your knights in shining armor. Like Bruce Springsteen said: "Sooner or later it all comes down to money."

Bobert

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:19 PM

As little as I like Islam, I have to say that GUEST is full of it. Louis Ferrakhan is American. Eastern Muslims don't accept him.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:26 PM

According to O'Reilly, the head of I.N.S. is a pencil pusher named Ron Ziglar. A Paine Webber man! The Border Patrol arrested an illegal immigrant, turned it over to the INS and they let him go! His name? John Malvo! I've never seen O'Reilly jump all over a republican before. Very refreshing.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:34 PM

Also, for what little it's worth, the sniper appears to have claimed to be God, or at least to have told others to call him God. Farrakhan's Nation of Islam and orthodox Islam would agree that this is blasphemy (very likely deserving of death under the Shari'a); where they would differ is that the Nation of Islam folks would say only Wallace Fard Muhammad had the right to pass himself off as God, while orthodox Islam would say even (or especially) Wallace Fard had no such right.

Haruo
big authority on the fiqh ;-) NOT

PS Besides, don't you think this Troll grossly underestimates the dangers of environmentalism ;-)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:48 PM

Well I suppose there are people who see it in terms of "there goes another Muslim with a gun". But I think most people are likely to see it more in terms of "there goes another American with a gun."

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:59 PM

"Nation of Islam" <> "Islam"

Kevin, you have the right of it. What is with Americans and violence? Some days I wish I HAD moved to Australia... even if it meant getting married :)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 10:20 PM

For what it's worth, David Frum (who apparently authored this piece in his daily column) is/was Canadian and wrote quite a few speeches for American President George W Bush. His Mom, Barbara Frum was a long time CBC broadcaster, and seemed pretty balanced in her Political Ideologies.

Rick

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:30 AM

All I know is that the alleged sniper is a black male who embraced Islam a few years ago. That's all anyone knows at this point. The rest is conjecture.
Let it rest until the investigators release some more facts.
NicoleC, Australia doesn't look like such a good choice either right now.

troll

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:47 AM

Geez, I wish David Frum would get a real job somewhere...he is an annoying little turd.

It's gettin hard to tabulate all the places that are not safe to be in right now. I've about given up. Troll, capital T, you're entirely right. Except to note that enough is known about the guy's background OTHER than his religion that he seems to fit the general "run amuck serial killer" profile.

W-O

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:01 AM

...well, in the news this morning was the repost of an appearant connection between the Washington sniper(s) and shooting up a Synagogue in Washington State.

Having had to live through endless news stories about David Koresh, a "Fundamentalist Christian" -- and the appearant danger in Christianity, I too am a little curious that SO little has been even wondered about in the media that is covering this event.

No doubt he is just a single mad man -- it's just that this is a really strange double standard. To make my point just imagine how the story would have been reported if the sniper had had similar connections to Liberty Baptist Church (Falwell's). It would take an awful lot to convince me that that would not be the major slant of the story both in the media and here.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:51 AM

The guy was trained by the military at Fort Lewis, Washington. He was trained as a sniper. He became an assasin, terrorist nutcase. I suppose it's possible he was acting alone... I'll put my guess on the "subtile" encouragement scenario... like... they had something on him so, he had nothing to lose... This particular media event stinks to high heaven... The constant unprovoked denials by the media, durring the murdurer's spree, that his deadly accuracy was "probably not the work of a trained military personel", bangs around my head a bit. Yuck!

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:10 AM

1) This killer was not trained as a sniper. He did what every military inductee does - qualifies with a rifle and pistol. Neither of them was a particularly good shot either.

2) Neither of these two peckerwoods is a sniper - they are cold blooded killers. Why in the hell anyone calls killers snipers beats the crap out of me.

3) Bunch of speculative BS for anything else. And their "poor childhood" don't mean squat. Try them - if they are found guilty - put them away for life or kill them.

Christ on a crutch -

Steve

(How was that for a rant??)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:23 AM

1)John Muhammad did receive the highest award for infantry marksmanship.

2) A sniper is one who attacks from a remote or secure position. That makes them snipers.
3) No-one else has mentioned financial background or tried to excuse the snipers. You don't need to get defensive.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:37 AM

What (always) saddens me about stuff like this (John Walker Lindh, and all the rest, whether madmen/women, OR political operatives) is the celebrity status they attain. I know there's ABSOLUTELT NUTHIN' that can prevent it from happening (short of changing the North American system) but we'll end up knowing SO much about the insane killers and so little about the thousands of people they impacted.

Rick

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:22 PM

To say nothing of hardly hearing about others to whom it has happened without the media hoopla. Yesterday, a nursing student murdered three professors, then killed himself in Arizona. How did he bring FIVE guns and over 200 rounds of ammunition to class? He was a Gulf War veteran and upset that he was flunking out. Fellow students say he had anger issues.

In Oklahoma, an unhappy teenager stole his dad's shotgun and shot two of his neighbours to death and injured seven others.

Haven't heard much about either of them, NOR about their religious affiliations.

This country is really fucked up about guns, dealing with anger, and diversity.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 12:55 PM

So the alleged murderer is a Muslim? So what...only one of many religions and cults that have equal standing in the US. So he qualified at some level on the M-16 rifle (marksman, expert, sharpshooter?). So what...so did I, 30-odd years ago. Didn't make me a sniper, which requires a lot more training and proficiency, doesn't make him one either.

This began as a troll, and belongs in the latrine pit with all the rest of them.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: YOR
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:18 PM

I suggest as part of his punishment the maggot be smeared with lambs blood before he gets the needle. He can then leave this world knowing that Allah won't even have him. No mercy and ASAP, no I take that back, let him have plenty of time to think about where he's going.

Roy

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 01:50 PM

"Fellow students say he had anger issues."

Strange the way that kind of language has crept into the way people describe what happens.

Words... I imagine if some murderer were to take an axe and chop a bunch of people up, and it was described as his "butchering them", there'd be people protesting that he wasn't a qualified member the meat processing industry, and that to call him a butcher was to malign a fine body of citizens.

A sniper is someone who kills people with single shots fired from cover and from a distance, without giving them any warning or any chance to hide or respond. But having a professional qualification or being employed by the army isn't part of the definition. It's just a matter of having the skills, and the motivation. And of course a particular type of personality - a sniper has to be able to be totally detached and unemotional in the killing, or the bullets would miss "the target".

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:01 PM

McGrath: "There goes another American with a gun." Now Kevin, don't let your admiration for Americans cloud your thinking. :>)

So why is it so difficult to accept that the accused was a Muslim? He didn't change his last name to Jones, did he?

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM

Some of you already know this, but others obviously don't, so lemme clue you folks into the "sniper/marksman/sharpshooter" thing.

Some years ago, one of my friends was into competitive target pistol shooting. He and I spent many Saturday or Sunday afternoons at the Seattle Police Athletic Association firing range punching holes in targets with .22 cal. target pistols at twenty-five yards (we weren't training to blow people away; target shooting is sort of like golf; you shoot for score.). At other times we went out to some isolated area with a good backdrop and shot the hell out of empty pop cans and other debris that people had dumped there. Often other friends joined us, a couple of whom had rifles. One afternoon, I leaned over the hood of my friend's car with another friend's rifle (.270 cal., I don't recall what make), I drew a bead on an empty blue plastic gallon detergent container on a hillside about 100 yards away (the length of a football field or average city block), squeezed the trigger, and hit it square on. It bounced about ten feet in the air. For the next few minutes, I bounced the thing all over the hillside. I fired about a dozen rounds at it and didn't miss it once.

Now, that gallon container was a smidgen larger that a human head and a whole lot smaller that a human torso. This rifle was equipped with a telescopic sight complete with crosshairs, and it was the first time I had ever used one. Lining up on the target was no problem at all, and I could have punctuated the label on the container if I'd wanted to. Up until then, I had put no more than fifty rounds in total through rifles of various kinds. Other than "take a deep breath, let it out halfway, and squeeze the trigger," I had received no instruction in how to shoot a rifle. In no way was I, or am I, any kind of sharpshooter or marksman.

The .223 cal. cartridge that the Bushmaster uses is high velocity and flat trajectory. It's highly accurate, and unless you have a hefty crosswind or the target is very distant, it bullet goes where you aim it. Also, I understand that John Allen Mohammad's Bushmaster was equipped with a scope sight.

My point:— this kind of "deadly accuracy" does not require a high level of expertise. Anyone who has spent a modicum of time with a rifle can do it.

Not, I must admit, a comforting thought.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:31 PM

Doug, I don't think anyone is denying that he thinks he's a Muslim, although calling the Nation of Islam "Muslims" is a bit like the way most Christians feel about extrememist cults. And yes, I'm avoiding mentioning any names. Said extremist cults might consider themselves Christian, but almost no one else does.

Which is not to say the Nation of Islam is an extremist cult. Their beliefs just aren't the same as the rest of Islam.

It's just that his killing spree doesn't seem to have anything to do with his religion. For once, the news agencies seem to be handling the religious thing correctly. (I admit to being astonished!) It's about as relevant as his height and weight, and deserves about as much attention.

Of course, if he were proclaiming his desire to kill the evil infidel, it'd be a different story :)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 03:42 PM

A lot of difference between shooting at blue plastic containers and shooting and killing human beings--the planning, execution, and escape require more than a just a good eye and a steady hand, they require coolness in the face of eternal damnation, as well as indifference to earthly retribution---

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 04:09 PM

Now there wasn't anything anti-American about what I said there, Doug.

One of the alleged snipers is a Muslim of some kind (though "I am God" suggests a very peculiar sort of Muslim). But I am sure for most people, especially those outside the USA (who are of course "most people") his primary identity is seen as that of being an American.

The danger in all this is that once people start seeing particular minorities of one sort or another as being "the enemy within" they risk setting in train a process that turns that into a reality, in a vicious circle.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:53 PM

GUEST, neither you nor I have any way of knowing, but I think John Allen Mohammad's frame of mind when he pulled the trigger (allegedly pulled trigger, that is, since he hasn't been convicted yet) was probably not much different from mine when I fired at the plastic container. Before, to see if I could hit it; after, exhilaration that I had. Neither he nor I had to worry about the possibility of our targets shooting back. And I think he regarded his targets as about as important to the general scheme of things as I regarded the plastic container.

To kill and kill and kill the way the sniper did takes a certain cold calm. Matters of eternal damnation probably never entered his mind, nor was he concerned with earthly retribution. Getting away with it made him feel cleverer than all these trained professionals who were looking for him. Most serial killers (e.g. Ted Bundy)--psychopaths--are of that frame of mind.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 07:27 PM

I heard on the news this afternoon that the alleged sniper's car was equipped with a global positioning system, and although he lived in a homeless shelter, he still managed to take trips on airlines. I wonder where he got the money for such things? It's already be determined here on the Mudcat that he couldn't possibly be connected to a Terrorist organization, so it couldn't have come from one of those, right?

McGrath: you mean you don't imply at times that Americans are "over-armed" from time to time?

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:18 PM

Religion doesn't seem to enter into it at the moment although it may down the road. I could far more easily see Farrakan's type of religion playing more of a part than anything else if religion enters into it at all.

As to the accuracy factor.....None of these shots were truly long range and the mindset to kill a human was already there so I doubt there was a moment when they actually thought, "I'm killing another human being." When I was in my 20's I used to enjoy "varmint hunting" down in Kentucky. I had a .243Win caliber Interarms-Mauser and spent many a lazy afternoon sitting in wait and reading a book. Most shots were taken at 200 yards and as it was a heavy barreled rifle with a properly bore-sighted scope, I can't recall a time when I missed. John Mohammed was not a great marksman...neither am I. Most of his Army work was in support functions like driving water trucks.

These guys will make interesting studies and all, but like Rick, I think of the people affected by their deeds.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:28 PM

Don, thanks for the clarity. I have no knoledge about rifles, and the accuracy thereof... it does amaze me that 100 yards is as nothing to a creep with cross hairs... So where did his money come from? The money trail bloodhounds are baying anxiously... ttr

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:28 PM

Of course I think that having a system where guns are readily available and where there are millions of them in private ownership is not a good idea. Mainly because one of the consequences is to make it easier for the occasional screwed-up individual to go out and kill lots of unfortunate people.

That's hardly anti-American - after all, the people who get killed when that happens are Americans. And I gather that opinion polls indicate that most Americans would be a lot happier if there were much stricter controls on who can legally own a gun.

If I heard that some bull fighter in Spain had converted to Islam, that might be interesting. But I'd still think of him as being a Spanish bull fighter who happened to be a Muslim rather than a Muslim bull fighter who happened to be Spanish. (And I don't much approve of bull fighting either, but that doesn't mean I'm in the least bit anti-Spanish.)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:52 PM

I don't believe the polls in the United States support your view that "most Americans would be a lot happier if there more stricter controls on who can legally own a gun," McGrath. To the contrary.

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:03 PM

CNN/Gallup Poll here

It's not overwhelming. The poll is slanted family-style because it's post Littleton, CO.

Other polls that cover *specific* issues -- like blocking the gun show loophole and raising the legal age to buy one to 21 should huge numbers for passing specific laws, like 75-80%. But support for the theoretical right to gun ownership also remains strong.

I think that Americans favor gun control, as long as it doesn't apply to them :)

Earlier CNN/Time poll (1999)

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 10:36 PM

If you can't beat 'em -join 'em!

Make gun ownership mandatory and institute a National Free Shot Day - no penalties for anything you kill. Would this make life a little more democratic?

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:44 PM

Only if they don't tell you what day it is until it's too late to get plane tickets out of the country.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 02:16 AM

Gee maybe I should be shooting at blue plastic thingies instead of paper targets. I did once destroy a very ripe cantaloup at 200 yards, though.

I think the shooter(s) are no more than wacked-out. Islam doesn't have anything to do with what they did. Vengence and anger seem to, though.

CB

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Troll
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:40 AM

Most of would be happy if the Government would enforce the bloody laws that are already on the books. But they don't want to do that.
They pass feel-good legislation when something like this happens- laws that infringe on the rights of law-abiding citizens - and then move on to something else. If anyone IS ever charged under the law, he's let off.
Case in point- The Brady Bill- backgroung checks required to prevent ex-cons etc from buying arms from dealers.
Great idea right?
As far as I know, only one man has ever been brought to trial under this law. Yet, Bill Clinton bragged that over 400,000 ineligible purchasers were stopped from buying guns in 1999. Most of these were ex-cons who were in violation of their paroles by even attempting to buy a gun.
Why were they not prosecuted? No good answer has ever come from the Government. I assume that the situation is similar under the Bush administration.
We don't need more gun laws. We need enfrocment of the laws that are already on the books.
Sorry about the thread creep.

troll

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM

Heigh-ho.

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Lengthy cut-and-paste article deleted. You can find the whole article, even the "heigh-ho," here (click).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM

Damn Christian exremists....

blicky

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 10:51 AM

Whether most Americans favour gun controls, and how far they'd like to go in that direction is interesting enough - but it's something Americans have to sort out for themselves. (I suppose it would be possible to define handguns and rifles as a dispersed weapon of mass destruction, given the numbers killed every year, and argue for an preemptive invasion...But I'd be agin that.)

The reason I mentioned those poll results like that was as an indication that there's nothing anti-American in my believing that stricter gun controls over there would be rather a good idea. The fewer Americans get shot, by other Americans or by anyone else, the better, that's how I see it.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 04:01 PM

Let's see, there's the LAX shooter, 9/11, Bali, the Palestinian suicide bombers, the Moscow theater, the unsuccessful shoe bomber, the DC sniper.

Unlike many Mudcatters, this guest actually reads newspapers and news magazines and watches various television reports and commentators.

Were I to get my information from the conventional wisdom of Mudcatters like Spaw and McGrath (that is to say Chomsky), I'd have to assume that Islam has nothing to do with any of it.

Thanks Frum and Guest @ 9:08 today for bringing some common sense to this forum.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 04:48 PM

And I wholeheartedly agree! Guest, we must keep in mind, though, that in the intrest of political correctness, we musn't be too hard on the Islamic extremists. They might get mad at us.

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:42 PM

Hey great! If we can consider every Muslim a criminal because of the actions of a few, that means it's okay to consider Christians criminals and terrorists because of groups like the Army of God.

And of course the Judaic Defense League is representative of all Jews, so all Jews are terrorists, too. We don't hear about them on the news much, but there are Israeli terrorists, too, setting bombs and shooting Palestinians at random.

Do you call the Serbs "Christian Terrorists" because the rapes and murders of Bosnians? Hey, then there's the Christian Croats, they like to blow up Bosnian Muslims, too. What about Northern Ireland? Are all Catholics and Protestants to be considered terrorists because some are?

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 05:49 PM

How stupid do you have to be to fall into the inhuman lapse of prejudice by category?

Sheeeshe!


A

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 07:39 PM

Uh, the key word in my post, Nicole, Amos, is "extremist."

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 07:45 PM

Unfortunately, Doug, that wasn't the premise of the post you "wholeheartedly agree[d]" with.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 07:49 PM

How many of you noticed the celebration of the events of 9-11 in Riyadh? Wasn't given much publicity, was it?

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So now we are engaged in a great Holy War, testing whether our culture, or any culture conceived and dedicated to the proposition of social sensibility, can endure....There is no good solution to this unpleasant conflict, but kissing the feet of the aggressor is not any sort of answer. Tolerance is all very well but, like moderation, it can be taken to extremes.

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I suspect the person who posted this message has no thoughts of his/her own. Click here for the entire article.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: DougR
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 12:06 PM

The post to which I wholeheartedly agreed was the one posted by GUEST at 9:08 A.M. on 30 October. It appeared I was "wholeheartedly" agreeing to the slight to Spaw, Amos and McGrath. Such is not the case.

DougR

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: 53
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM

I don't think that he was involved with any terrorists except himself.

Subject: RE: The sniper and Islam
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 08:07 PM

Whether whoever did this was thinking as a terrorist is something that none of us know at this point, and there's not much use in speculating about it.

The essential thing about being a terrorist is to have a political motive of some kind for what you do. Terror can be carried out by a government, by an organised paramilitary group, by a cell or gang, or by an individual. The authorities naturally prefer to think in terms of centrally organised structures, because that gives a notional target, but that can be an illusion. Terrorism by individuals and small cells which may be completely out of touch with any larger organisation is perhaps a much more frightening threat.