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Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs

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The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM
Alice 25 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM
The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM
Mr Happy 25 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM
The Shambles 25 Jan 03 - 10:09 PM
The Shambles 26 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 03 - 09:30 PM
Alice 27 Jan 03 - 10:21 AM
The Shambles 28 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM
IanC 28 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM
IanC 28 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Et 28 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM
The Shambles 28 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM
Mr Happy 28 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM
Mr Happy 28 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM
ET 29 Jan 03 - 07:07 AM
IanC 29 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM
MMario 29 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM
Alice 29 Jan 03 - 03:07 PM
GUEST 29 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM
Mr Happy 29 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM
Mr Happy 30 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM
The Shambles 30 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Jan 03 - 03:46 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 05:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM
The Shambles 31 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM
Mr Happy 01 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 08:29 AM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM
GUEST 02 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM
The Shambles 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM
The Shambles 03 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM
Mr Happy 03 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM
Mr Happy 04 Feb 03 - 06:50 AM
The Shambles 04 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM
The Shambles 04 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM
Alice 04 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM
The Shambles 05 Feb 03 - 06:05 AM
The Shambles 05 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM
IanC 06 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,ET 06 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM
DMcG 07 Feb 03 - 05:14 AM
The Shambles 07 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM
Mr Happy 07 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM
ET 07 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 08:08 AM

The interpretation looks fine to me, if not welcome, it is hardly unexpected. The following may help in any letters on the subject, as it is always good to have a concrete proposal to examine. As for comtempt from Dr Howells, look at it as being in good company....

Busking on the London Underground

I will try and post, in the Weymouth Festival thread, the Council solicitor's dismissal of the 1899 case law.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 11:26 AM

54,171


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Dr Howells in The Stage 23 Jan 2003http://www.thestage.co.uk/paper/0304/0302.shtml


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM

54689 Total Signatures + hardcopy!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 03 - 10:09 PM

If you need to sum up why this is a 'Silly Bill', this is a good example.

The Bill is claimed to be a deregulatory reform. Under it, the current exemption from the licensing requirement for two people and a piano in a pub, is to be replaced by the piano itself being licensable!!!

It will be OK if the piano is for display, locked or disabled, but if a customer should actually play it, the premises will be considered to be automatically unsafe and the licensee subject to a maximum fine of £20,ooo or six months in prison. Possibly the customer too, if they did not take steps to establish if the premises held the required licence.

The floor of any place anywhere will also be licensable, if this is considered by local council officers to be a 'dance floor'.........Perhaps we should take to dancing on the ceiling?

http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar16.shtml Pub fined for permitting 'dancing'.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 05:48 PM

55,559.................

I have this horrible feeling that the opposition in the Lords, know exactly how unworkable this Bill will be inpractice and for reasons of their own, they are allowing it to be inflicted on us.

There are some intelligent people in the Lords, as many have made some pretty good points about the Bill, but this is the only explanation I can see why they are prepared to give it any respectability at all..............


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 09:30 PM

I will put this to Howells directly but I think he regards me with contempt

I think he regards all of us with contempt ET.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 03 - 10:21 AM

56,687


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 01:53 AM

57,447..................So the figures in the following Guardian article are out of date already.

No more impromptu gigs, open-mike nights or even singalongs. Can live music survive the new licensing bill, asks Tim Cumming

Tuesday January 28, 2003
The Guardian


Until recently, Lee Lindsay ran a singer-songwriters' night in the West End as a members' club, exempting her from the need for a public entertainment licence. She did this on Westminster Council's advice - but that didn't stop undercover council officers attending a gig without registering in advance (thereby breaking club membership rules) and prosecuting Lindsay on the grounds that not only were more than two musicians playing, but that "one woman danced for a short time".

That is not an isolated incident. "Over the past decade, council after council has been raiding and closing down clubs on the back of the two-in-a-bar rule," says folk star Eliza Carthy. "It has decimated the folk scene, and it's dangerous for jazz, for singer-songwriters and for open-mike nights. Why are they making it worse?"

The "they" in question is the government, which in an attempt to make matters better with its latest licensing bill has succeeded in making them worse. The bill is potentially fatal to the future of live entertainment of all kinds. Described as "a central plank in the government's drive to tackle anti-social behaviour", the licensing bill was expected to streamline the archaic Public Entertainments Licence regime and end the two-in-a-bar rule, which permits no more than two musicians to perform without a licence, and which culture minister Kim Howells labelled "outdated and pointless".

Instead of liberalising the law, the government intends to license all live entertainment with what is essentially a none-in-the-bar rule. That is the opposite of what many hoped for, and at odds with the law in Scotland, which permits live music without a licence if it is secondary to the main business of the premises.

Overnight, live music "in any place" will be illegal unless a licence or temporary entertainment notice from local authorities is obtained, with all its attendant costs and red tape. This means everything from Christmas festivities to impromptu music sessions in small, out-of-the-way pubs will be liable to penalties of up to £20,000 and six months' imprisonment. The only proposed exemptions are for the corporate leisure industry - for whom satellite TV pubs bring significant revenue - and churches, although non-religious church events would also require a licence.

Carthy sees the bill as an attack on live music of all kinds by a government that has no realistic understanding of what its implications are. "Kim Howells doesn't understand how many years it has taken for someone like me to be able to make a living out of what I do. I started by busking and singing at local folk clubs, and the pub I started in did not have a licence," she says.

Musicians' Union advisor Hamish Birchall believes that while the law as it stands is bad, the proposed new bill will be much more destructive. He points out that the vast majority of busts are not the result of public complaints, but of covert operations by council officers - as in Lindsay's case.

Singer and activist Billy Bragg also feels that the future will be worse, especially for rural communities where local events "help newcomers like me to be part of the community. It's where we find a common ground, in the village hall, church or school hall. Now, with the new law, we will be at the mercy of sympathetic landlords, and in rural areas landlords are often less sympathetic."

Carthy adds: "The Joint Committee on Human Rights read the bill, and it contravenes Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. You can't do it. I'd love to sit with Dr Howells and a lawyer, and tell him what is endangered by this bill. It's the English tradition, the British tradition. These are things he should not endanger if he is culture minister."

Bragg agrees: "We want licensing in favour of performers rather than puritans, based not on the world-view from Westminster but from our view in the real world. Why should we have this Orwellian Ministry of Fun telling us what fun we can have and when we can have it?"

Howells has indicated that Home Office guidelines to councils will prevent a draconian insistence on the law, but Carthy disagrees. "Councils will say, 'We have to read the letter of the law,' and a lawyer will be brought in and say, 'This cannot continue without a licence.' Howells is inordinately naive if he thinks that won't happen."

And it will happen, she says, across the board. "Under the new law, you have to pay up to £150 for yearly inspections, and for a small club that's a lot of money. If the folk club is the sole reason the landlord would have to undergo these inspections, then maybe he won't bother having the licence. With something like folk, it's dangerous to put these obstacles in front of people."

Since the new year, a petition against the bill has been gaining over 2,000 names a day; now, with more than 54,000 signatories, the call for changes to the legislation is becoming louder. But will the government listen, and does it understand what the Musicians' Union, Equity, the Arts Council, the 233 MPs who signed an Early Day Motion to protect live music, and the House of Lords - which heavily criticised the bill during its second reading - are actually saying? After accusing the Musicians' Union of running a "pernicious lying campaign", Dr Howells, for one, does not seem to want to listen.

"Howells may hate folk music," says Carthy, "but that's irrelevant. Our culture minister should be making sure my culture survives. I pay my taxes and I want him to listen to me - and to my 53,999 mates."

· Music Licensing Reforms: How Will This Impact an Already Fragile Industry? is at the ICA, London SW1, on Thursday. Box office: 020-7930 3674. The online petition is at www.musiclovers.ukart.com


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 10:56 AM

More enumeration ...

There is still no clear sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day varying between about 1,400 and 2,000 (except at weekends)... Today was 1,602 on my system (this is lower than any day last week, so there may be the first signs of a drop in the rate).

The latest week-to-week figure (Tuesday to Tuesday) is 10,740. Still over 10,000.

On the "worst case" assumption that the signatures declined linearly at 200 a day from now on, then we could expect about 65,000 signatures by the end of the week after next. This would probably allow us to confidently predict a minimum of coming up for 70,000 (unless there is a sudden and rapid decline).

Since there is no sign of a significant decline at present, we can also predict (speculate) that if there was no further decline in the signature rate over the next 2 weeks we would be looking at around 80,000 to 85,000 by that time.

The number currently stands at 58,333.

:-)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM

Barbara Follett sent me a copy of the DCMS briefing, so I've sen her a reply that asks her about that (sorry but it's her own fault for sending it to me). She still hasn't been able to answer my questions about sword dancing (see above.

Here's the latest ...

Dear Barbara Follett

Thank you very much for your letter of 22nd January, containing the briefing from the DCMS. I'm afraid that this issue has turned me into a bit of an activist, so that I'd already read this. I have to say that, on the whole, it rather alarmed me.

Firstly, there's a general tendency in it to represent the two ends of the spectrum but not to give any guidance as to what happens in the middle of the road situation. Secondly it seems to contradict what the bill says in a number of ways. Finally, some of the things which it says are even more worrying than I had understood the bill to indicate.

As an example of the first two, the situation with regard to Carol Singers might explain what I mean. The briefing explains that impromptu singing from place to place would not be licensable. Though I've tried very hard, I can't see where the bill exempts this in any way. Where am I going wrong? Also, whilst it deals with the situation where a shopping precinct may have arranged for carol singing (this will apparently be licensable) it doesn't deal with the more numerically common situation where carol singers might be performing on a street without any particular arrangement or where they are moving from place to place but have previously advertised their route.

As an example of my increased worry after reading the briefing, I need only to refer to the situation regarding a pub piano. As the briefing says:

"2.8 An antique piano in a pub that was only provided for decorative effect would not give rise to the need for a license. And a license would not be required if the pub operator did not allow the public to play it. A license would only be required if it was used to entertain people at the premises or by people on the premises to entertain themselves."

In the enclosure to your original letter, Kim Howells said that this is a deregulatory bill. However, this seems to be a most incredible new increase in regulation. It appears to be saying that a piano would become licensable, as the provision of entertainment facilities, should anyone ever use it for a pub sing song. I really need to sudy the bill again as I didn't realise it was going this far.

As you know, my main concern in writing to you is that I don't altogether understand the effects of the bill on the activities of The Stevenage Sword Dancers, but I have set these down in my previous fax to you and don't want to duplicate them.

I'm sure you're still busy on our behalf sorting this out, so I'll just thank you again for your work and hope that you can help us resolve what is still a very worying issue for us.

With very best regards

Ian Chandler
The Stevenage Sword Dancers


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,Et
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:18 PM

I think that all buskers are caught by this. Howells cheerfully talks about "providing the audience is not more than 499. How do you count out from a pavment? Who would have this job?

A busker tooperate regularly might have to give 5 event notices at £20 a time them move on a few yards. Not very profitable.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 04:32 PM

I was pleased to see that the Guardian site gave the URL of the petition, and also of the Musicians Union. I suspect that this will mean a lot of new signatures from Guardian readers who will previously have had no idea about this.

Fortunately it didn't have the URL for this place. That's all we'd need.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 06:59 PM

59,063.....................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:45 PM

59106 Total Signatures + another 19+ from Wales session tonite!!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

seems like most of uk believe what's going to happen & are reacting [not over-reacting!]


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:07 AM

Another thought about Howells 499 audience at the shopping mall or railway station - is this 499 at any one time or does it include those coming and going.
Maybe there is a job for someone here- with a peaked cap and a clicker


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

60000. Roy Sear Blue Firs, Orchard Road BASINGSTOKE RG22 6NU


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM

Here are some good words for a song - not mine. Needs music


Dangerous men with concertinas,
Ladies who play the guitar;
The worst kind of brute is the child with a flute;
We know you for what you all are.

Dangerous men with concertinas,
What damage you do to our lives;
If you had more sense, you'd take your instruments
And exchange them for guns and for knives.

Do we want any more Edward Elgars?
The prospect just makes me turn pale;
The moment they start making music,
It's best just to throw 'em in gaol.

I know we don't do that to burglars,
But people who sing, play or dance?
Fine 'em a fortune and send 'em to prison;
Their kind don't deserve one more chance.

Dangerous men with concertinas
Take your vile trade out of here;
No more you'll sing, or play bellows and things;
There are old ladies living in fear

Of dangerous men with concertinas;
They'll not roam our streets any more;
We'll not be afraid that some note will be played;
And no one will sing; it's the law.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: MMario
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

goes to "Daring young man on the Flying Trapeze"


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

Couldn't quite make it fit the Flying Trapeze.

But if you change the first line to "Dangerous men who play concertinas" than it goes pretty well with the tune used for the Chivalrous Shark.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:07 PM

Guest, who wrote the Dangerous Men With Concertinas lyrics?


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM

This is the source of these excellent lyrics


Les Barker has written a cracking set of verses that a tunesmith might wish to use: Martin is already contributing to teh "Guide Cats for the Blind" CD project that Clive Lever is involved with and Clive is hoping to get Billy Bragg to record for teh project, but I attach the words anyway.

I have some e-mail addresses if you want to send me a message

ET


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:04 PM

60708 Total Signatures of anti 'silly bill' protestors.

clearly a staggering 'over-reaction'!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:36 AM

60926 Total Signatures


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:37 PM

62,047...............


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:46 AM

What happened at the ICA last night?


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:20 AM

I think The Guardian got this meeting at the ICA wrong............


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:15 AM

It wasn't in the ICA website - there was a talk scheduled about how to get on in the music business, so I suppose it might gave touched on the subject, or even been drifted to deal with this issue.

On the other hand the possibility that it was just the Guardian getting it wrong seems likely enough. (But the mistake doesn't reflect on that article, which was first rate.)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 09:30 AM

Full transcript of Howells on Radio 3 can be found on PEL Exemptions

62,662.....................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 06:14 PM

63,062....................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM

63615 Total Signatures!!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 08:29 AM

63,801....................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

64,110...................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM

Spoke to my MP Saturday. Senior conservative. Thinks Howells is basically an ok bloke but drafting bills by Treasury Counsel often has "unexpected consequences" - as did the two in a bar exemption from the Licensing Act 1961.

Thinking about it the present position is technically hopeless for sessions, but OK outdoors. Now its difficult outdoors.

If only the Bill said what Howells says. I wonder if he is a bit pee'd off with all this. The rest of his bill seems to cause him no grief. He used to reply to my e-mails but I fear he has set up more recent ones to auto delete!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 06:04 PM

Well leaving the exemption in place in 1982 did have some logic. As it did recognise that the other regulation already covered small-scale entertainment. The problems came when cash-strapped councils insisted on the interpretation that the addition of one 'performer' to a duo automatically made the premises unsafe.

Which is why it is so important that the wording of this Bill does support the stated good intentions. No one is suggesting that the intention of the Bill is to damage music making, but the words of the Bill, as they stand, will enable this to happen.

But leaving the current exemptions in place, with the stated objectives of the Bill, has no logic whatsoever and makes a complete mockery of the stated objectives.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:58 AM

64,882....................

The Government have today announced the expected exemption on church concerts. The full thing can be read on the following site.

PELs Exemptions


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 07:06 PM

65273 Total Signatures + oodles of hardcopies [sent my 1st 500 names today!]


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:50 AM

A new group called 'Save Live Music!' has been established to campaign against the Government's proposed Licensing Bill. Join the discussion list to hear about or help plan future protests by sending a blank email to savelivemusic-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Please forward this to anyone who might be interested.

For more information emailsavelivemusic@yahoo.co.uk or call 07810 192 905.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:46 PM

65,943...................

Don't forget the established Yahoo group


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM

Action for Music


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Alice
Date: 04 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actionformusic/


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:05 AM

66,397...................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 05:36 PM

67,064........................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: IanC
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:20 AM

Numbers games ...

There is now a clear sign of a decline, with the number of signatures per day dropping from 1774 2 weeks ago through 1513 last Thursday to 832 today. The average drop seems to be about 100 a day (today's 832 was over 150 less than yesterday's 989 so it may be accelerating).

This is borne out by the week-by-week figures, which are 6161 for today, down 700 or so from yesterday's 6842. This was, in turn, down slightly less than 700 from Tuesday's 7505 which, in turn, was just less than 700 down from Monday's 8167.

On a linear interpolation, this would get us to just over 70,000. This may well be close to a "worst case" figure as, though the rate of decay is lower than previously predicted, the decay is also likely to be better than a linear assumption.

Unless something happens to boost the number of signatures in the near future, chances are that it won't progress beyond a maximum of about 75,000 whatever happens. Still pretty good!

The number currently stands at 67,559.

:-)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:23 PM

For circulation

Culture Minister Kim Howells is to answer emailed questions about the Licensing Bill on Lamacq Live
BBC Radio 1, Monday 10 February, 8-12pm. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/features/licensingbill305.shtml

For ideas about questions to ask, see under Questions below. To avoid misunderstandings about the Musicians' Union position on the Bill, go to:
http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar07.shtml (More info under MU position below).

Some supporters of the Bill argue that increased licensing control is good for public safety. The Department for Culture says licensing allows for the prosecution of musicians who trail 'bare cables' through an audience - not mentioning that this is already dealt with by public safety legislation. See Health and Safety - bare cables below. Noise is also dealt with by separate legislation. This is comprehensively covered on the MU website at: http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/articles/two_in_a_bar17.shtml and scroll down for the Noise heading.

On Thursday 20 February, the National Campaign for the Arts has organised a Licensing Bill Seminar at the Wigmore Hall, London, 2-4pm. Andrew Cunningham, the civil servant at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) who is responsible for the Bill, will be a speaker. To reserve a free place call Jackie Clayton on 020 7333 0375, or email jclayton@artscampaign.org.uk.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights which strongly criticised the Department for failing to provide adequate justification for increased licensing controls, is now considering the government's response. The Committee will publish its conclusions on Monday 10 February. The Committee's office can be contacted on 020 7219 2797.

Parliamentary Timetable
The Bill is still in the Lords. There are two more stages of Lords debate before it goes to the Commons: Report stage and 3rd reading. Report stage will begin on 24 February, and 3rd reading could be concluded as early as mid-March. The MU is working with the Lords in order to re-present amendments at Report stage.

Questions


Since the Bill exempts big screen broadcast entertainment (Schedule 1, para 8) that could be hooked up to a powerful sound system, why is it necessary to criminalise even small-scale public music-making unless licensed?
The government launched the Licensing Bill as a Bill to tackle anti-social behaviour. Why did the government reject the representation made by the Association of Chief Police Officers which argued against the broadcast entertainment exemption because televised sporting events '...attract large crowds and are quite frequently the source of disorder'?
The Minister has written that he 'does not accept that acoustic music is never noisy' to justify licensing unamplified performance. Can the Minister provide up to date statistics which show the number of noise complaints arising from live amplified music or live unamplified music? If so, are they publicly available?
The Bill contains an exemption (Schedule 1, para 7) for the playing of recorded music that is incidental to other activities that are not licensable entertainments or facilities. Does this mean a pub jukebox is exempt no matter how powerful the sound system, provided no-one organises any singing or dancing?
Can the Minister identify specific deficiencies in public safety, noise or crime and disorder legislation that would mean a performance by a string quartet in a hotel lobby, or a jazz trio in a bar, cannot be adequately regulated without licensing?
Since public safety and noise legislation is UK-wide, and in Scotland live music that is secondary to the main business of pubs and bars is automatically allowed during permitted hours, why can we not have this regime in England and Wales?
If under the new regime a pub obtained permission for a duo on Friday and Saturday night, does this mean it would have to apply to vary the new 'premises licence' in order to put on live music on another day of the week?
Clauses 134 and 137 of the Bill mean that musicians are open to criminal prosecution if they don't first check that premises hold the 'appropriate authorisation' for their performance. Why is this necessary?
The Bill defines premises as 'any place' (Clause 188). Will buskers always have to check with a local authority first if they want to busk in a public street or square, or indeed any open space?
If those places don't hold a 'premises licence' for live music, would the busker have to obtain a Temporary Event Permit?
Could the Minister confirm that only five such permits can be granted per year for any place?
If a pub provided a piano for public use, would this be illegal unless licensed?
I am sure you can think of many more.

The MU position
Nothing so far said by the Minister or published by the DCMS suggests the MU should alter its position concerning the potential scope of the Bill's definitions as worded. Clarifying amendments, reflecting the Minister's assurances, are required. Independent legal advice, and expert licensing lawyers support us. They agree, for example, contrary to the Minister's statements, that carol singers on front door steps, and private events where performers charge a fee are caught.

The MU has welcomed the government's proposal to cap licence fees and to set them centrally - where licensing is necessary. Specialist premises already licensed for public entertainment will benefit. Many do pay exorbitant annual fees under the present system. They could save considerably under the new proposals. It also makes sense to rationalise the disparate licensing regimes, although it is unfortunate in many ways that essential reform of public entertainment licensing should be pegged to deregulation of pub opening times. The Licensing Bill applies to regulated entertainment irrespective of whether alcohol is sold.

The MU also welcomes the government's announcement that means churches in London will enjoy the same entertainment licensing exemption that currently applies outside London, and that church halls and community premises in London will get the licence fee exemption that currently applies to these premises outside London.

The MU accepts that there is a case for licensing premises whose main business is music, or music and dancing. It may be easier to enforce certain measures at such premises (such as the provision of chill out rooms) through licensing conditions than through safety legislation - although experts argue about this. These premises may also have a far greater impact on residential amenity than a typical bar or restaurant, and the importance of public consultation is consequently greater.

The MU's prime concern is for over 100,000 smaller premises that will lose the long-standing licensing exemption for small-scale entertainment by one or two live performers. Many MU members rely on work in this sector, as solo or duos. Currently only 5% of 110,000 pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants etc in England and Wales hold annual public entertainment licences allowing more than two performers to work. There is also concern about the implications for private events. Where these are raising money for charity they become illegal unless licensed; this also applies where a charge is made for admission.

It is unlikely that obtaining the 'necessary authorisation' will be a simple matter of ticking a box. The Local Government Association has already indicated that it would like to have information such as a maximum number of performers, where in the premises they are to perform, and when. Even if licensees are prepared to jump through all the obligatory administrative and consultative hoops (police, fire service, environmental health dept, local residents, and finally the licensing committee), and even if the conditions are less costly than at present, if a permission is granted for, say, a duo on Friday evening that will be the limit of their live music permission. If they wish to host a trio, or to provide live music at any other time they will have to apply to vary their premises licence, going through the whole process all over again. This is clearly over-regulation. There is nothing like it in Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Finland, Denmark and France.

A thriving grass roots music sector cannot exist without flexibility, freedom for musicians to sit in, informality and an intimate music-making environment. The Licensing Bill seems almost deliberately designed to kill this off. It is a potential straitjacket for this kind of music-making which was, after all, how folk and jazz was born. As Mike Harding and others have already pointed out, the burgeoning folk scene of the 50s led to the pop explosion of the 60s and 70s.

Health and safety - bare cables
When considering public safety or noise issues in the context of the Licensing Bill don't forget that the exemption for broadcast entertainment (Sch 1, para 8) means that you could set up a bank of big screens and a large PA, invite people to bring their own beer, and provided the entertainment falls within the broadcast entertainment definition, this is not licensable under the Bill. In its recent statements justifying licensing controls on safety grounds, the DCMS has failed to mention the wide-ranging powers already available under health and safety legislation. These apply irrespective of licensing. The paragraph below is from the latest DCMS justification of the Bill which has been distributed to MPs and the wider public. Beneath it in blue are my comments.

"24.2 The penalties provided in the Licensing Bill are maximum penalties and, as with all offences, the courts would decide on the appropriate punishment depending on the facts of the case. Severe penalties might be appropriate in some cases, however rare, for instance where a musician put lives at risk by trailing bare cables through an audience."






Having bare cables trailing through an audience in, for example, a bar would be a health and safety offence in any case. The employer and the musician responsible could be prosecuted.



Under the Health and Safety at Work Etc Act 1974 (HSWA) the employer on site has a duty to create and maintain a safe system of work not only for employees but anybody else who might be affected. If the workplace is a pub, the employer is effectively responsible for the safety of members of the public as well. This undertaking would cover activities ranging from repairs to the provision of entertainment ('entertainment' or 'practice or presentation of the arts' are already defined as activities for which local authorities have a statutory duty to enforce the HSWA in workplaces).



Bare cables trailing through an audience, or trailing through a group of people milling about, could result from a number of plausible scenarios: musician with amplifiers, the use of an air compressor for a bouncy castle, a workman undertaking repairs. If injury or even death resulted from such bare cables, two prosecutions could be pursued: one against the employer and one against the musician or other person responsible for the equipment (as a self-employed person) under sections 2 and/or 3 of the HSWA. The employer, or self-employed contractor, are under the same duty to provide a 'safe system' for people who may be affected.



A prosecution brought under s2 or s3 of the HSWA carries a maximum £20,000 fine at a magistrates court. If the magistrates court considers that their powers are insufficient, for example where a fatality or serious injury has occurred, the prosecution goes to the Crown Court where there is there is no limit on the potential fine. A Bill currently going through Parliament (Health & Safety Offences) is seeking to include imprisonment as an additional sanction.



The duties imposed by the HSWA are widely publicised by the HSE with plenty of published guidance, both hard copy and online. Since 1974, public safety and noise legislation has applied UK-wide. The Scottish example demonstrates that where live music is secondary to the main business, and is confined to permitted hours, no additional controls are necessary.


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:14 AM

The Licencing Bill (Report Stage) is due to be discussed Stage in the Lords on 24th February. The amendments being proposed can be found here.

(http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld200203/ldbills/021/amend/ldam021.htm)


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

68,016..................


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:49 AM

IanC,

while it may be true that the email petition contributions are appearing to slow down, i don't notice any evidence of this phenomenon on the hard copy petitions.

on the contrary, i'm finding that the frequency of contributions to these are constantly increasing, & furthermore i'm gaining signatures now from a much wider audience- not just from folkies- but also from 'joe publics' in other areas of life.

in addition to distributing the petition, i'm also raising awareness through distribution of 'Warning- Your Music is in Danger!' flyers & other info. material.

there's still an enormous number of the population who don't have access to computers or emails, so my humble efforts are really just the tip of the iceberg on the procurement of support from this resource.

my main message & conclusion here is- Everyon get out there & get hardcopy petitions filled & send to Graham Dixon before March 15th!


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Subject: RE: Sign a E Petition to 10 Downing St PELs
From: ET
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM

This is an amendment in the Lords. It would reduce opposition greatly if Howells accepts it but I doubt if he will.


Schedule 1

THE LORD REDESDALE
THE VISCOUNT FALKLAND
THE BARONESS BUSCOMBE
THE LORD LUKE

Page 110, line 16, leave out "recorded"
Page 110, line 32, at end insert—
"Unamplified music incidental to certain other activities

(1)       The provision of entertainment consisting of the performance of live music (and not comprising or including the playing of recorded music) is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that the conditions specified in sub-paragraph (2) are satisfied and to the extent that it is incidental to some other activity that is not itself—
(a)   entertainment of a description falling within paragraph 2, or
(b)   the provision of entertainment facilities.
(2)       The conditions referred to in sub-paragraph (1) are that—
(a)   the other activity referred to in sub-paragraph (1) is the subject of, and is undertaken in accordance with, a licence granted under this Act;
(b)   the live music being performed is not provided in whole or part by means of, or with the assistance of, electrical or electronic amplification, or made more readily audible by such amplification either in the place where the performance is occurring or in any other place."
Schedule 6

THE BARONESS BUSCOMBE
THE LORD LUKE

Page 133, line 42, at end insert—
"51A (1)       Section 11 (provisions as to licensing and registration) is amended as follows.
(1)       For subsection (1) substitute—

"(1)       The provisions of Schedule 2 to this Act shall have effect with respect to the licensing of premises for gaming and in England and Wales for licensable activities ancillary thereto."

(2)       At end insert—

"(3)       In this section "licensable activities" has the same meaning as in the Licensing Act 2003"."


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