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BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'

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Bobert 26 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,lardingo 26 Dec 02 - 02:36 PM
NicoleC 26 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM
Greg F. 26 Dec 02 - 12:01 PM
NicoleC 25 Dec 02 - 03:16 PM
Greg F. 25 Dec 02 - 12:59 PM
NicoleC 25 Dec 02 - 01:37 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 02 - 10:32 PM
CarolC 24 Dec 02 - 04:00 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 02 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,Boromir 24 Dec 02 - 03:00 PM
NicoleC 24 Dec 02 - 12:27 PM
Greg F. 24 Dec 02 - 08:34 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Dec 02 - 07:57 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 02 - 06:50 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Dec 02 - 02:28 AM
CarolC 24 Dec 02 - 01:59 AM
NicoleC 23 Dec 02 - 09:16 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 02 - 09:05 PM
NicoleC 23 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM
Greg F. 23 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM
GUEST 22 Dec 02 - 07:03 PM
DougR 22 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM
GUEST 22 Dec 02 - 05:08 PM
NicoleC 22 Dec 02 - 05:03 PM
kendall 22 Dec 02 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Jed 22 Dec 02 - 01:53 PM
Naemanson 22 Dec 02 - 08:51 AM
Ebbie 22 Dec 02 - 01:40 AM
DougR 21 Dec 02 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,diggy f 21 Dec 02 - 07:38 PM
Bobert 21 Dec 02 - 06:45 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 02 - 06:07 PM
DougR 21 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM
GUEST 21 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM
GUEST 21 Dec 02 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,Stan in Toronto 21 Dec 02 - 09:37 AM
DougR 21 Dec 02 - 12:49 AM
GUEST 20 Dec 02 - 10:55 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM
GUEST 20 Dec 02 - 10:28 PM
Bobert 20 Dec 02 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,different faceless nameless guest 20 Dec 02 - 08:52 PM
Mary in Kentucky 20 Dec 02 - 08:48 PM
Tinker 20 Dec 02 - 08:45 PM
The Pooka 20 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM
M.Ted 20 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM
GUEST 20 Dec 02 - 08:13 PM
M.Ted 20 Dec 02 - 08:06 PM
NicoleC 20 Dec 02 - 07:58 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM

Your apparent sarcasim aside, *YES*, GUEST, Lardingo! Works fir me and long overdue! Especially *reparations*! This ain't about Jesse Jackson any more than it is about any black person in America.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST,lardingo
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 02:36 PM

Sean Hannity interviewed Jesse Jackson last week concerning the Trent Lott mess. Hannity pressed Jackson to say whether or not he (Jackson) would accept Trent Lott's apology. Jesse Jackson said that he would accept Lott's apology if it was sincere. Jackson went on to say that the apology would be sincere if future actions by Lott and the Republicans showed sincerity; that is, if Lott and the Republicans would pass legislation strengthening Affirmative Action, increasing funding for minority issues, pursuing reparations, and increasing funding for a few other of Jackson's favorite issues. I for one certainly hope Lott is sincere, don't you? After all, what better way to spend our way out of the recession than to follow a proven leader like Jackson?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 01:11 PM

Hey, I agree that slavery was not "the" cause of the American Civil War; any time someone starts talking about THE cause of anything that complex, better watch out. But just because it wasn't THE cause doesn't mean that Negro slavery, with all its social, political, and economic ramifications, and the increasingly hostile sectionalim that the conflicts over the expansion of Slavery (Kansas/Nebraska, the "Compromise" of 1850, etc.) exacerbated weren't A cause, and significant ones at that.

I absolutely agree with the statement. Unfortunately, most proponents of the Civil-War-fought-over-slavery issue will refuse to even recognize that there *were* other causes. Or that slavery was just a portion of the larger causes.

I'm not asking you to do homework for me :) But literally, it's extremely difficult to find those kinds of references. Any widely available history book on black civil rights will start with making a general reference to Douglass and Tubman, than head straight to the Civil War and the subsequent Constitutional Amendments, skim over Jim Crow laws, and then hit Martin Luther King. Frustrating.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Dec 02 - 12:01 PM

Actually, the 1826 NY tax lists indicate that 298 Blacks qualified to vote that year, and the numbers increased slightly each year from then on.

I'm happy to help with your 'homework assignment', but I'm not gonna do all your work for you!       ;>)

Prior to the Civil War, five northern states- almost all in New England- allowed Blacks to vote on the SAME terms as whites. Several additional states, like New York, allowed them to vote, but they had to meet more stringent conditions than did whites. It has literally been 20 years since I did any work in this particular area of history, so I can't put my hands right on chapter-and-verse references. I can recommend the bibliographies in any of Eric Foner's extensive studies as a starting point.

Hey, I agree that slavery was not "the" cause of the American Civil War; any time someone starts talking about THE cause of anything that complex, better watch out. But just because it wasn't THE cause doesn't mean that Negro slavery, with all its social, political, and economic ramifications, and the increasingly hostile sectionalim that the conflicts over the expansion of Slavery (Kansas/Nebraska, the "Compromise" of 1850, etc.) exacerbated weren't A cause, and significant ones at that.

If I can easily put my hands on any specific references, I'll get 'em to you.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 03:16 PM

I stand corrected. I do think it should be noted that only 16 blacks qualified to vote under those requirements, which were more stringent than those for white men. Still, a notable acheivement at the time.

And yes, I would like references to more. The vast majority of histories of blacks in America do not cover local laws at all.

But I still maintain that slavery was not the sole cause of the war. The abolitionists were a vocal minority in the North. That does not mean that that was the cause of the war. I am certain that 100 years from now, so many children will have have educations that completely ignore the taxation issues, tariffs waged against the southern states to protect northern industry, and other complex issues that increased the tension between the regions that had been growing from 1787 onward. The South was a cash cow for the north, and they resented it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:59 PM

Only one? No problem. In New York state, and this PRIOR to universal emancipation in 1827, "every male inhabitant of full age", Black or White, meeting the property and residence requirements, was entitled to vote.

Want some more?

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 25 Dec 02 - 01:37 AM

"Blacks could vote, own property, serve on juries, attend school, etc"

Fascinating. Can you please provide me with a single reference predating 1861 where blacks are allowed citizenship or allowed to vote in any of the US states, territories, or possessions?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 10:32 PM

I hardly know where to begin. First, please show us where the statement was made that the war was fought "entirely about Black freedom" or where an attempt was made to "canonize the North". Best take a few deep breaths.

You rail against simple explanations for complex problems & at the same time make statements like "How can a war be fought just over slavery when slave-owning states fought on both sides?" Hello??

Statements like "the North refused to recognize them [Blacks] as citizens" are plainly untrue- Blacks could vote, own property, serve on juries, attend school, etc.

A real good example of an overly simplistic approach is maintaining that the entire North knuckled under to the slaveowner-dominated supreme court decisions in the Dred Scott, Prigg v. PA, & similar cases, when in fact they generated mass meetings, outrage, and wholesale non-compliance. It also ignores the minority opinions in all of these cases which maintained, among other things, that Blacks WERE citizens.

Again, adhering to fact rather than fantasy and wishful thinking is not "demonizing the South". A greater disservice is done to the South and the nation as a whole by those who perpetuate misinformation.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 04:00 PM

Thanks Nicole.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 03:59 PM

Carol, I forgot. Here are some quickie resources about the proclamation. In brief, though, the Executive Branch has no Constitutional power to make laws, only to enforce them. Presidential proclamations have been used ever since, usually for minor matters, but technically speaking law-making is the responsibility of the Legislative Branch.

Nor did the Emancipation Proclamation actually free any slaves. But it still turned the purpose of the war, and unlike many wartime promises, this one got lived up to with the 13th Amendment.

National Park Service -- text of proclamation and comments

Text of proclamation and more comments

More balanced commentary here


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST,Boromir
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 03:00 PM

Amen, Nicole


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 12:27 PM

No, that's not my point at all.

Saying the Civil War was fought over slavery is about as accurate as saying WWII was fought over the Jews. It's an explanation suitable for a 6 year old, but like all things in politics the situation was much more complex.

How can a war be fought just over slavery when slave-owning states fought on both sides? How can a war be fought over something which was not illegal at a federal level? Slavery was clearly under the jurisdiction of the states until after the war, and the South did not seceed because they wished to be slave states -- THEY ALREADY WERE. How can we canonize the North over their stance on black people, when the North refused to recognize them as citizens and upheld property rights against them by returning them to their owners? Ironically, it was the South who was pushing for voting rights for the slaves prior to the outbreak of the war, and the North fought against it. (Although, presumably, it was as long as the slaves voted the way they were told to.)

Simplistic statements like insisting the war was entirely about black freedom serve to demonize the southern states and deflect blame. Slavery was an American problem, not a Southern one, but by blindly assuming that slavery was only issue in the south, the rest of the US can pretend they have clean hands. The truth is much sadder.

Today, racism is an American problem, not a southern one. By demonizing the south, the rest of the country can go about ignoring their problem and blaming it on those "backward southerners." Racism only exists in the south, right?

Perpetuating the myth that the North was somehow on a crusade to help the black people during the Civil War is part of that demonization and ignorance.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 08:34 AM

No, no, I agree with you, Jack, mostly, but I don't concede that adhering to fact & historical accuracy constitutes rubbing salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 07:57 AM

You seem to have missed or ignored my point.

It is not what they say about the past that matters. It is what they do now. That war has been over and done with for more than 130 years. Its is time for southerners to accept that and for northerners to quit rubbing salt into the wound.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 06:50 AM

If the Southerners want to say it was "States Rights", Why not, if it makes them feel better?

Because until they can get past that convenient fiction and recognize that its bogus it will be difficult to make any meaningful progress in combating U.S. racism- North and South.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 02:28 AM

What difference does it make what happened in 1862? Lott implied that segregation would have been a good thing to have NOW. The GOP is accused of using coded racism to get elected, now! If the Southerners want to say it was "States Rights", Why not, if it makes them feel better? If Northerners want to claim it was all about liberation, again, why not? My history book, which was written in Britian, said that the war was fought over MONEY and POWER, changes in the economy and thus the relative importance of the states. That seems the most plausible to me. Contrary to what many "patriots" say, soldiers may fight for ideals, but politicians don't go to war for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 02 - 01:59 AM

Nicole, I'm afraid I don't know as much about the Emancipation Proclamation as I would like. Could you please tell me in what ways that proclamation was/is Un-Constitutional?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:16 PM

Okay, Greg. I can name 4 Union states where slavery was legal, and did so above. Plus, of course, the territories. Yes, it was illegal in MOST northern states. Not all. Nor was there a federal manadate against it of any kind prior to the start of the war.

How is #2 unsupported?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:05 PM

Less and less sense is made as the argument progresses; Which statement are you trying to maintain is true:

1. individual [northern] states had outlawed slavery -- most had by the start of the war

or

2. slavery was not illegal in the Union states as a whole

Number two simply cannot be supported by the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 06:15 PM

I think it is ludicrous to suggest -- as so many do -- that the North cared at all about blacks in any meaningful way. Lacking any large economic incentive for keeping slaves, the few abolitionists had it relatively easy getting such laws passed. Some individual states had outlawed slavery -- most had by the start of the war -- but "freedom" was not for black people.

Slaves were not freed in the border states (Union) until the passing of the 13th Amendment in 1865. (KY, DE, MD, MO). The infamous 1857 Dred Scott decision is the most well known, but it was only one in a series of Supreme Court Cases where blacks were determined not to be citizens, and which upheld their slave status even in supposedly "free" states.

In 1861, Union Gen. Butler forced fugitive slaves to labor for his army. So much for "freedom," right. Slavery was not outlawed in DC until April 1862, and was not outlawed in the territories until a couple of months later. Lincoln repeatedly repealed his generals' edicts to free slaves in certain areas for supposedly Constitutional reasons, yet had no problem later issuing an equally Un-Constitutional Emancipation Proclamation.

No, slavery was not illegal in the Union states as a whole. Abolition was not treated as a Federal issue until after the start of the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Dec 02 - 05:29 PM

Somehow I missed this earlier: The South seceeded over sovereignty issues...
The great "States Rights" shibboleth, one more time. The Thing That Would Not Die.

The antebellum South had no difficulty whatsoever with Federal authority superseding that of the States, as long as it was NORTHERN state laws that were overridden. One example of many: take a good look at the Federal Fugitive Slave Law of 1850; a massive, pro-slavery effort that not only negated northern states' legislation but denied trial by jury and other constitutional guarantees.

slavery had a minor role, but economics had more...
And the entire economy of the South was based upon? (wait for it)...
Negro slavery.

nor was slavery illegal in the North.
If you're implying circa 1798, partly correct. If circa 1840 or later this is simply untrue. Completely bogus.

Guess Lincoln the 'spin doctor' is in good company here on the'Cat, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 07:03 PM

A few folks have aluded to their belief that "affirmative action" is reverse discrimation. ON a case to case basis this may be true but on a collective basis it is not.

Seems that a lot of folks and their families are enjoying the fruits of an infastructure that has been been build primamrily on the backs of black folks, first as slaves and then as underpaid laborers.

Yeah, we hear, "Pull yourself up by your bootstaps' yet the bootstarps have been disporportionately distributed to white folks.

Don't belive me? Get in your car and drive thru just about any inner city. Look around. Visit projects. Visit the jails, Visit the schools thatminner city blacks attend.

When you have done all of these things then come back and tell ol' Bobert just how white folks are being discriminated against...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: DougR
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:12 PM

No, Ebbie, I have not looked at their website. I'm not interested in their web site. The fact that the guy made a speech to them does not mean he is one of them. Anyway, I'm tired of this thread. I'm gonna sing Christmas Carols with Jed.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:08 PM

From today's Reuters Top News page:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=1949036


U.S. Corrects 'Southern Bias' at Civil War Sites
Sun December 22, 2002 10:44 AM ET
By Alan Elsner, National Correspondent
GETTYSBURG, Pa. (Reuters) - The U.S. National Park Service has embarked on an effort to change its interpretive materials at major Civil War battlefields to get rid of a Southern bias and emphasize the horrors of slavery.

Nowhere is the project more striking than at Gettysburg, site of the largest battle ever fought on American soil, where plans are going ahead to build a new visitors center and museum at a cost of $95 million that will completely change the way the conflict is presented to visitors.

"For the past 100 years, we've been presenting this battlefield as the high watermark of the Confederacy and focusing on the personal valor of the soldiers who fought here," said Gettysburg Park Superintendent John Latschar.

"We want to change the perception so that Gettysburg becomes known internationally as the place of a 'new rebirth of freedom,"' he said, quoting President Abraham Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address" made on Nov. 19, 1863, five months after the battle.

"We want to get away from the traditional descriptions of who shot whom, where and into discussions of why they were shooting one another," Latschar said.

The project seems particularly relevant following the furor over Republican Sen. Trent Lott's recent remarks seeming to endorse racial segregation, which forced many Americans to revisit one of the uglier chapters of the nation's history.

When it opens in 2006, the new museum will offer visitors a narrative of the entire Civil War, putting the battle into its larger historical context. Latschar said he was inspired by the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C., which sets out to tell a story rather than to display historical artifacts behind glass cases.

"Our current museum is absolutely abysmal. It tells no story. It's a curator's museum with no rhyme or reason," Latschar said.

It is also failing to preserve the 700,000 items in its collection, including 350,000 maps, documents and photographs, many of which were rotting away or crumbling into dust until they were put into temporary storage.

FEW BLACKS VISIT

Around 1.8 million people visit Gettysburg every year. Latschar said a disproportionate number were men and the park attracts very few black visitors.

In 1998, he invited three prominent historians to examine the site. Their conclusion: that Gettysburg's interpretive programs had a "pervasive southern sympathy."

The same was true at most if not all of the 28 Civil War sites operated by the National Parks Service. A report to Congress delivered in March 2000 found that only nine did an adequate job of addressing slavery in their exhibits.

Another six, including Gettysburg, gave it a cursory mention. The rest did not mention it at all. Most parks are now trying to correct the situation.

Park rangers and licensed guides at Gettysburg and other sites have already changed their presentations in line with the new policy. Now, park authorities are taking a look at brochures, handouts and roadside signs.

According to Dwight Pitcaithley, chief historian of the National Park Service, the South had tremendous success in promoting its "lost cause" theory.

The theory rested on three propositions: that the war was fought over "states' rights" and not over slavery; that there was no dishonor in defeat since the Confederacy lost only because it was overwhelmed by the richer north; and that slavery was a benign institution and most slaves were content with their lot and faithful to their masters.

"Much of the public conversation today about the Civil War and its meaning for contemporary society is shaped by structured forgetting and wishful thinking" he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 05:03 PM

The South seceeded over sovereignty issues (of which slavery had a minor role, but economics had more), and the North fought to preserve the union in order not to lose though states which grew the resources that kept their industrialized economy afloat. The North didn't have a problem trying to recruit slave-owning generals like Robert E. Lee, nor was slavery illegal in the North.

I've always thought of Lincoln's later comments on slavery as the kind of "spin" that politicians always put on wars to sell them to the populace. Well, it worked -- we still act like the Civil War was fought by a valiant free north to help the oppressed blacks. Not even slightly true, although the war did have the positive outcome of ending slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 03:03 PM

The Civil war was fought to preserve the union. period,


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST,Jed
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:53 PM

I don;t know why I became a GUEST - and didn't notice above that I'd lost my cookie when I said, "What a surprise; we're all seeing what we want to see!" but - a few more comments before I slip back into Christmas mode (where I mushc prefer to be).

It may be that racists did or even do feel at home supporting GOP issues and candidates - but it should be clear to critical thinking people that 1) race issues and segregation feelings have changed (for the best) DRAMATICALLY over the last 30/40 years. 2) The GOP has been very supportive of those changes - they were by far the majority of supporters for the Civil Rights act pushed by LBJ, they are a party that strongly supports the rights of individual and personal responsibilities - and of course they were the party that fought a war for equality and the elimiation of slavery 3) the differences in policies supported by GOP as opposed to those supported by Dems does NOT indicate one is right and one is wrong; one is racist and one is not. If you insist on making such a claim you are guilty of being close minded. There may policies one party supports that are more appealing and more correct to your way of thinking - but clearly both parties strongly support a well integrated nation - and neither party will countenance racist policies or even, as Trent discovered - careless statements regarding racist sensitivities.

Mick - sounds like we're in fierce agreement again!

Tinker - my cynical commment was just that, cynical meant to show that of course just the opposite was true. Of course American blacks don't need to have the bar lowered so they can compete! Yes, we need to be diligent about enforcing equality laws, yes race can be considered when qualifications for positions are developed, and yes it is resonable for every individual to ake advantage of every opportunity available to him/her when competing in the free market ... reverse discrimination is abominable - and that should never be countenanced ... but affirmative action does not need to mean reverse discrimination. The devil is in the detail. The last thing any hiring manager should want is to water down the strength of his organiztion in order to obey racial quotas - BUT reasonable affirmative action-based guidelines can help a manager strengthen his team. As a former hiring manager I know that a good mix of racial profiles within an organization is a positive thing, all by itself - social issues aside.

Anyway - it's Christmas and that is much more important to me! I'll sign off this issue for now. Thanks all and Merry Christmas (to those Christmas celebrators among you - best wishes otherwise to all).


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 08:51 AM

I haven't read through this thread. I just want to share personal experience.

I grew up in redneck country. I grew up as a rascist and bigot, the son of a rascist and bigot. Our party was the Republican party because we knew they were the ones who would keep the minorities in their places.

I have grown and matured and realized how wrong we were. I am happy to say my father has also.

However, the experience has affected how I read the words coming from the Republican leadership. And I hear no change in attitude. They say they are trying to appeal to minorities but they are making no real effort and the gaffe made by Trent Lott only illustrates the reality of the thought process behind that crew.

In fairness to those who follow the Republicans I also recognize that the Republican leadership's efforts to hide this reality makes it difficult for the more civilized of us to see it. You can be easily fooled by their false words and blandishments.

But out in the hinterlands they still see the Republicans as the white party.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 02 - 01:40 AM

Question: DougR, have you looked at their website?

Tra la la la I hate Christmas.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 11:52 PM

"Tis the season to be jolly...fa la la la la la la la la!"

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST,diggy f
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 07:38 PM

I don't know a great deal about Trent Lott, but the fact that he spoke to this Conservative Citizens Council group speaks volumes. Has anyone actually looked at their website? One Mudcatter says that 'another good man has been assasinated by the press'. It makes me wonder who the other 'good men' are and what defines a 'bad man'.

diggy


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:45 PM

Both parties, GUEST, are steeped in racism. No, not the KKK variety, but racism none the less. If it were the truth then the government, which is made up primarilly of DEMs and Repubs would have taken the steps a long time ago toward remedies that the US will one day have to undertake.

I have pointed those steps out above.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 06:07 PM

What a surprise; we're all seeing what we want to see!

The Republicans found it easy to move Lott aside for being so foolish with his remarks - and they were probably grateful for the furor created in the press. Lott should have known better. I am glad he stepped down a leader, and would like to have seen him replaced under other circumstances.

But the assumption that the GOP is racist is outrageous and simply caused by political bigotry. The assumption that only Democratic intiatives and solutions to the race issues in this country is wrong, closed minded and bigoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM

True, GUEST, we do not have to read threads posted by GUESTS, and I usually don't. I may scan them but rarely read them and if, in my opinion, they are posted only to inflame, I sorely try not to reply to them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 10:27 AM

Stan in Toronto, thanks for bringing that thread and the information to our attention. I often read Canadian papers, but haven't this week.

As I said, racism and bigotry exists in all communities, among all races. However, the dynamics of racism, sexism, and bigotry isn't the same. It is hurtful everywhere it manifests and gets expressed, but it is only when it is institutionalized by the ruling class that it becomes segregation and apartheid.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 10:21 AM

Nicole, Doug & Mary, there is in fact no reason why people can't just converse, regardless of the way they log in. No one is flaming here, nor have I seen any flaming in other threads with guests, despite at least one guest posting extremely inflammatory remarks this week related to guns and extreme paranoia of the government.

So my question to the three of you is, why are YOU trying to start something? My guess is, as Doug has alluded to, that you disagree with certain guest opinions, yet because some members agree with that opinion, you attack the person rather than address the issue. Remember, you do have the option to not read what bothers you, rather than trying to derail the conversation.

Happy holidays.


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Subject: Attention: KENDALL
From: GUEST,Stan in Toronto
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 09:37 AM

Kendall, you said:

I recently heard a native American say "He was shaking like a nigger writing a check." How can a man who belongs to an Indian tribe say such a thing? It's bad enough to hear a white person say it, but, an Indian?

Please check out this this thread about David Ahenakew, the former Grand Chief of Canada's Assembly of First Nations. What you heard pales in comparison.

link repaired and subsequent post deleted by Mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: DougR
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 12:49 AM

Nicole: I have been urging Catters not to respond to GUEST threads that are obviously intended to inflame for years. No one pays any attention though. One reason may be, and MTed comes to mind, the gist of what GUEST posts with their POV.

Were I amind to, and I'm not, I could point out several outrageous statements made by posters in this thread (from my POV) but it is the Christmas season. I'm not amind to argue during such a happy season.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:55 PM

BTW, one of the leaders of the white anti-treaty protest was none other than Dubya's current Secretary of Health and Human Services, former Republican governor of Wisconsin, Tommy Thompson, who during his 1986 gubenatorial campaign, promised to abrogate the Ojibwe's treaty rights, referring to them as unfair "special privleges" which whites didn't have. It was increasingly racist rhetoric from people like him, and former Minnesota Vikings coach Bud Grant, that lead to violent, racist confrontations of Native American spearfishers by angry white mobs numbering in the thousands, at rural, isolated boat landings in Wisconsin in the early 90s.

In Minnesota, three innocent black men were dragged out of the jail by a mob and lynched in Duluth in June 1920. They had been accused of raping a white woman who later recanted.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM

Sounds like George Bush's Texas to me. We all know, or should know that with their medieval justice system, than innocent black people have all ready been executed.

Hey, folks, that is government executions of *innocent people*... Hmmmmm?

And we wonder what kind of mind is getting ready to send thousands of folks, who just don't happen to look like Bush, to their graves in the name of, ahhhhh....? What is Junior's *excuse de' jur*?.......

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:28 PM

December 26, 1862 38 Dakota men hung in Mankato as the "final reckoning" of the Dakota Conflict Trials, many of them for merely participating in the battles in which whites were killed, with no evidence presented against them. The Dakota defendants were not allowed any legal representation. Few of the defendants spoke English, and so could not have understood the crimes with which they were charged. The defendants, most of whom "confessed" are largely believed to have admitted firing weapons during battle.

The executions of the Dakota men remains the largest mass execution in US history.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:09 PM

Pooka: I've outlined the initial steps that need to be taken inregards to dealing with the *institutional" racism that has exhisited in the US since 1619. The main two components: Apology and Reparations.

Now, as to how to get there. This is where "democracy sneaks up on the repubocrats". A good first step is happening now with a dialogue on racial issues beginning to take place. Bill Clinton tried to get such a dialogue going but didn't have a Trent Lott incident to assit. Hey, whatver folks can do NOW to keep the issue alive before Boss Hog figgures out a way to trump it is VERY GOOD! This is democracy sneaking up on those who thought they wouldn't be heald accountable.

NEXT STEP: In '04, I think that Bush will have the US in more wars than "Carter has liver pills" and thus, will win re-selection. GREAT!!! No, make that SUPER GREAT!!! Not really, because it's a stupid, anti-humna foriegen policy so don't misquote me on the "GREAT". But this does allow the Green Party an opportunity to break into the game. We need to get into the Presidential debates in '08. This will give legitamacy to our party and, more importantly, credibility to the alternatives to the same old Repubocratic policies that are reactive rather than proactive, anti-human as oppopsed to pro-human and problem solving rather than problem creating.

So, yeah, there are some opportunities NOW and there will be more in '04.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST,different faceless nameless guest
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:52 PM

GUEST: you guys really been lynching a lot of Native Americans in Minnesota in the last century or so? You're bumming me out.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:48 PM

Classic trolling.

Start with a statement or link about a controversial topic in the news. Then enter the discussion periodically to rachet up the namecalling. Try to stear the thread drift toward topics which will enable more namecalling and venom.

Watch the timing and words of the troll.

Only Mudcatters with names matter in this type of discussion, and so far they've comported (is that a word? ;-)) themselves well.

Watch the timing...


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Tinker
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:45 PM

Southern racism is rude, prevelent and hard to ignore. Even amongst friends it maybe hard to let down your guard. Took the kids to visit Dad's hometown in South Carolina. I too could tell tales. And no, I wouldn't raise my kids there.

Northern racism is also strong. It comes from friends who find they are not quite as liberal as they thought. From the best friend since kindergarden whose parents now don't want you to visit because dating wouldn't be okay. From being in a group of friends and seeing your white friend pocket a small item but having the shop keeper search only you because he knows it's gone,but the other kid just walks away. Unexpected intermittent reinforcement by the well intentioned is very powerful. Folks you love hurt much more than those who refuse to know you. And it comes in all colors.

For me this is not an issue solved in the national arena, that is only rhetoric. It's one best addressed by each of us day to day. We are all responsible. It would be nice if instead of one upmanship we could simply each find a cornor to help clean up. It's a murky moral high ground at best.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM

Bobe - *what* "steps"? / You say, "democracy is sneaking up from behind." Git out thet oul' Wes Ginny Sliderule & calc'late THIS (you want the TRUTH? You can't HANNNdle...ahhh nevermind:) - The TRUTH is: yer upsneakin' *Democracy* is the PROBLEM here, bro'. -- Always assuming that by Democracy, you mean a political system wherein the numerical majority rules -- both when you like their policies, and also when you don't. [I.e., an electoral outcome from which I dissent is not necessarily thereby, definitionally, Undemocratic owing to various & sundry & RevBillySunday assorted & sordid conspiracies instigated by Boss Hawg. / Or by Ellie Mae, fer that matter :)

To Wit: Trent Lott, as a US Senator, is a valid representative of his constituency. Bobe, I'm sorry but: even if every single US citizen age 18 & over in Mississippi --- black & white --- had freely voted, Lott would still have been elected overwhelmingly & Dat's a Fack. Likewise most other racist representatives -- most of them white; a few (like Cynthia Jackson in her previous District) black. // Look at the precinct returns from the Mississippi State Flag Referendum a few years back. White vote, 99% for the old one with the Stars & Bars; Blacks, 99% for the new one, without it. Result: Stars & Bars. More W's than B's. // Boss Hawg?? I might as well say, th' Divil made them do it.

So -- at the risk of repetitive & rudundant reiteration -- what steps??


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:14 PM

I see your point, NicoleC, and after fuming, fussing, and complaining about just this sort of thing for a few years, I guess I have slowly started to think of it as part of the scenery--sort of like McDonald's and Holiday Inn--


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:13 PM

Kendall, racism isn't something that is exclusively a white phenomenon. All "race" groups have their racial epithets for other groups, including Native Americans.

I agree about racism being prevalent in the North absolutely. I live in an area where, until very recently, Native Americans were more often the victims of racism just because of their numbers, and their isolation in rural areas surrounded by whites--not unlike the segregated black and white communities in the South. It was about ten years ago that we had what was the ugliest racial confrontations I can remember in my life in this region--northern Wisconsin--over Native Americans exercising their treaty rights to spear fish in the spring (something white game fisher folk aren't allowed to do). There were regular protests by the whites at the boat landings when the Native Americans would go out around 4 a.m. each morning, with signs reading charming things like "Save a walleye, spear a pregnant squaw".

But I still maintain the legacy of slavery and segregation in the South is different, and often the racism there is of a much more pervasive and virulent strain than in many parts of the North. Don't get me wrong, blacks have been lynched in Minnesota too. Just not near as many blacks as Native Americans though.

The United States' racial history is extremely complex. But the race baiting by Republicans in elections, for instance, seems to know no boundaries.


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:06 PM

The problem that the Republicans have is very simple--only about 37% of registered voters can be counted on to vote Republican--If the Republicans want to win, they have to do some combination of the following:
A)Find a hot issue
B)Run a celebrity candidate
C)Promise a big tax cut
D)Get out the relatively small percentage of the population that still identifies with the "Stars and Bars" and all that it represents--

Many Republicans are strongly in favor of progressive social legislation, value a balanced budget, and value substance over style in their representatives,but the bottom line is that they want to win, so they do what it takes to win--Many Democrats(including some who run for office) have not caught onto this tactic yet, which is why we are in the situation we are in--


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Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:58 PM

NicoleC--Do you think that it is inflammatory to discuss a rather a rather remarkable event within the workings of our government? Also, how can the sole purpose of the post be to be inflammatory when there is nothing inflammatory in the post? Also curious to know why you thought it important to make this admonition in a thread that shows no signs of reeling out of control?

Just showing my general annoyance, M.Ted, of this same troll who gets his jollies baiting the 'Cat. It's not the subject that's inflammatory, it's the intent.

Of course, there were several other political BS threads started by said unnamed guest to choose from today. (And no doubt that statement will start a round posts of how "you can't tell it's the same guest" from guest). I suppose I could have posted to one of the other ones.

As it is, I plan to follow my own advice.


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