BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:55 PM

I recently heard a native American say "He was shaking like a nigger writing a check." How can a man who belongs to an Indian tribe say such a thing? It's bad enough to hear a white person say it, but, an Indian?
You can hammer on southern people for racist views all you want, but, it's been my experience that racism is just as rampant in the north, and always has been.
Personally, I wish they had kept Lott there; we democrats need a lightening rod for 2004, and he would have been a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:36 PM

My brother, long a racist Northerner, moved to Atlanta 8 years ago and became even more racist after moving there. He regularly refers to Cynthia McKinney as "that crazy nigger bitch". While visiting last summer, I found his language tame compared to some of his well-heeled, wealthy & well educated local friends I've met.

Their language, as Rick Fielding has pointed out, is not at all unusual, depending on who is within earshot, what the social setting is, etc. This is the language I heard repeatedly as a Northern guest at a backyard suburban Atlanta barbeque.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:34 PM

thanks for the thoughtful answers M. Ted (as is your usual manner). I may not agree with you but I like the way you comport yerself!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:31 PM

No, vote for third parties until the Repubocrats figure out that "democracy" is sneaking up from behind....

BTW, as an person who looks at possibilitiy over improbability, I think that the US can get beyond racism as an American institution, but not if it won't take the steps.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: The Pooka
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 07:23 PM

Bobert, sadly, you're right: "...you don't have to look to far to see that racism is so part of the American culture and society that the only issue should be, like... ahhh, what can we do to deal with it?" *More* sadly, if "deal with it" means Make It Go Away: we can't. Look at the REST of the word. Tribes R Us.

Tinker: "This is not a Southern Republican problem. Anyone who has ever spent time with census tracts knows that segregation ( racial and economic ) is a national issue." Having spent *some* time with the darling little census tracts -- and voting precincts -- (OKOK, so I don't get out much): Yes. But still, it IS *especially* -- most intensively -- a Southern Republican problem. The legacy of the D-to-R white-Southern transposition of 1964 et seq. is: scratch the public veneer off of most elected Southern R officials today, and you find: Trent Lott. Or, worse. Watch what's already starting to happen re his Shrub-anointed successor, Dr. Frist of Tennessee. / Now a NC R US Rep has said --- and then apologized for his 'stupidity' in saying (!) -- that (recently-defeated) US Rep Cynthia Jackson, D-GA, made him feel a little bit "segregationist", because "she was such a bitch". (He also said, "I talk too much." No shit, Sherlock.)

This is a Problem of Democracy, folks. People VOTE FOR these guys. So, what are ya gonna do? Shoot the voters?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:51 PM

I think GregF has nailed it with this:

"This is just a case of re-arranging the Republican deck chairs on the Titanic..."

Until the Republicans actually demonstrate that they are done using race baiting as their favored campaign tactic, attacking affirmative action, and promoting the symbols of our racist history like the Confederate flag and cross burnings, and the media continues to refuse to challenge them on it, the Republicans will continue to be given free mainstream media coverage while espousing their hate agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:49 PM

NicoleC--Do you think that it is inflammatory to discuss a rather a rather remarkable event within the workings of our government? Also, how can the sole purpose of the post be to be inflammatory when there is nothing inflammatory in the post? Also curious to know why you thought it important to make this admonition in a thread that shows no signs of reeling out of control?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 06:12 PM

Suggestion for a Mudcat New Year's Resolution, folks: don't post to political threads started by an unnamed guest. Said threads exist for the sole purpose of inflaming the community and not for rational discussion. (Although 'Catters tend to keep it pretty rational.)

If you don't have the courage to put a name to it, it's not an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:36 PM

Oh, John, I nearly forgot--as per Bush and racism, I don't believe that the Bush family are racists, and once had great admiration for Senior Bush because he combined a healthy, conservative view of government and the economy with a progressive view of society--my admiration changed when he compromised all of those things in pursuit of the Presidency--

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:31 PM

Kat, you've put yout finger right on it. There are a host of others waiting (salivating?) to take Lott's position whose lifetime record is just as insulting to civil rights and human rights as his was. Its just that the replacements, and their records, are not as well known.

This is just a case of re-arranging the Republican deck chairs on the Titanic- blame the whole thing on Lott and trust the voters are too stupid to realize the problem is with the party, its agenda and its programs- not with a single individual.

Problem is they've got the intelligence of the average American voter sized up just about right, as H. L. Mencken advised.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Tinker
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:31 PM

Doug, I think 'catters have handled a tough topic with thoughtful care. This is not a Southern Republican problem. Anyone who has every spent time with census tracts knows that segregation ( racial and economic ) is a national issue.

I know of black economic leaders who have cheerfully fed Lott's coffers in exchange for his leadership power. They aren't surprised and they aren't all appalled. As long as he's in the Senate the issue stays alive and politically they are in a reasonable (if not always defensable) position.

Bobert, take a look at this www.sbp.org ( blickifier isn't working) A school that turns inner city boys into water polo captains. If you can find a local program that works, find out how you can support it. My kid is hopefully going out of the suburbs and into Newark next year.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:21 PM

Purely as a speculative excercise, John Hardly, consider the following--

Nothing about Trent Lott was a secret, including his now infamous comment, which he has been repeating for more than twenty years--In that sense, he has neither done nor said anything new--so what is "intolerable"?

The more cynically inclined tend to think that his "crime" was to draw attention to the fact that the Bush administration, and the Republican party, court the extreme racist right, even while they make every effort to appear racially inclusive--

Of course, the even more cynically inclined believe that his real crime was to hold a position that the Bush people wanted to give to Bill Frist, and that they started the media frenzy to bring Lott down--

In considering this, remember that, whatever other failings they may have, the Bush team are unsurpassed masters at handling the media--

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:49 PM

IMO, Bush has no character, esp. good character, so the speculation is moot.

One of the scary things about this is that all of the other racist politicians will be more circumspect about letting it show. There is no mistaking that there are racist members of Congress. Fercrissakes I know someone who grew up in Nebraska in a town which had a sign saying "N***er don't let the sun shine on your ass in this town." You don't want to know what happened to an American of African descent when he was delayed leaving that town.

Native Americans are frequently beat up and/or murdered in various states; Muslims are rounded up and placed in custody with officials refusing to give out info on numbers, etc.; Bush Sr. called his grandkids, his little "brown babies."

Anyone who wants to stamp out racism must speak up when they hear racist talk or witness prejudice and a sign in a car window with the word racism crossed out in a red circle could help to make people aware, too.

www.tolerance.org works through schools etc. to educate young people about racism, the Southern Poverty Law Center and many other orgs. can use support anytime. Get involved, please. We do not have to accept this crap as the norm for our country and her citizens!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: DougR
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:48 PM

GUEST: You did not post this to flame. Yeah, sure. And I don't want to win the 215 million dollar lottery this weekend either.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:33 PM

just a question for some good honest speculation M.Ted, If Bush had stood behind Lott would you then be posting to point out Bush's racism by proxy?

Isn't it a probability that Bush could appreciate what Lott did for his agenda (your assertion) and still say nevertheless that racism is intolerable -- and wouldn't that show good character on Bush's part?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 04:08 PM

You would be hardpressed to find a Senator who has done more to advance Bush's agenda than Trent Lott--and a few words from the President would have saved him--if there were any doubts about the character of this President, this should settle them--

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 03:33 PM

Enjoying this little shoot out, GUEST? I sure am...

Dems and Repubs got this line drawn in the sand and throwing stuff at each other over stuff that you weren't even talking about.

Well, the Repubs do have a point. It isn't fair to say they have the market captured on racism because you don't have to look to far to see that racism is so part of the American cultur and society that the only issue should be, like... ahhh, what can we do to deal with it?

Well, I think a good start would be for America's primarilly white government to apologize for slavery. That would be a good start. It was wrong. While there is Lincoln's "Emancipation Declaration" (irregardless of his motives), there's the 16th Amendment, There is the Civil Rights Act, but NO APOLOGY. Hmmmmmmm? Like what's so difficult for America to say "We're sorry, we screwed up?"

Okay, once over that hump, there is this issue of "reparations". Now, lots of folks say, "Hey, why should I pay fir saomething that my great, great granddaddy did. I didn't do it!"

Why? Because every American citizen is now benefiting from the bounty of a country build on the backs of slave laborers and black people who after their *so called* emancipation continued to build the infastructure of the country while being paid wages that insured only that they would die young and never *enjoy* the fruits of the labor.

Let's face it, black folks have gotten the short end of the stick since 1619 and they are still getting the short end of the stick. The few crumbs that are thrown out thru the poorly funded social programs have only perpetuated the cycle, insuring *survival* but not real *opportunity*. "Affirmative Action" is just the tip of the iceburg of what really needs to be done to fix 383 years of oppression, discrimination and degradation.

The PR sacrificing of Trent Lott does not alter the racist character of Congress or the White House in the slightest. I does absolutely nothing except remind the other racist folks in our governemnt to be more careful not to *get caught*.

Problem is, that a lot of these folks will think, "Hey, I'm no racist. I don't say things like Trent Lott said" and feel purdy darned smug about it. Well, there are so many folks who don't evn begin to understand the racism they carry within themselves. Yeah, it's real easy to say, "Pull, yourselves up by your bootstaps, just like my daddy did." not fully realizing that the system was set up to provide the bootstraps for some daddys but not others.

Then there are those who will point out black folks who have been successful and say, "Well, if Condi Rice can do it, then all black folk can do it." To those folk I'd just suggest they ride thru just about any inner city, thru the projects, visit the schools and then come back and tell ol' Bobert what you think.

This is a good thread, GUEST, and probably will do some wandering but it is a subject that there are some folks around this joint have really not considered other than from the perspective of *self*.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 03:15 PM

Jed Marum calls Lott a "good man assassinated by the press."

Gimme a break, Jed. Lott brought himself down with racist comments that are completely consistent with his public stances going back to his student days when he stopped his stopped his fraternity from being integrated.

"A holiday for Martin Luther King? Not in my beloved Mississippi," said Senator Lott.

The fact is, Lott's views have been well known for many years. That he rose to such heights of power means too many of us in America, especially those of us in positions of power, are still living in the too recent past of legal segregation in much of America.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:50 PM

deprEcating

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:49 PM

TIA, there was no sarcasm in my post.   a little self-depricating humor (about the space between my ears) but no sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: TIA
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:40 PM

Obviously not *just* the Buddhist temple incident, but that and others that were endlessly rehashed by various commentators. And your sarcasm is misplaced, I have not mentioned the popular vote.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:35 PM

hey Jack, I don't disagree with you there....well, other than it was not I who drew a parallel to the Gore situation -- I was merely responding to the parallel drawn. Of course, as you know I have a sizable hole in my head where the wind blows free :^).

...and TIA, you'd have a long way to go to associate Gore's presidential haps or mishaps to the Buddist Temple debacle. After all, did he not WIN the popular vote?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM

Hardly, I wasn't objecting to the republican party I was objecting to statements like this.

"ok mick. But even if your point was granted, at what point does the cycle end? Gore's Buddist temple shennanigans DIDN'T matter, as it turns out, BUT LOTT'S GAFF DID as it turns out (nothin' happened to Gore -- he paid no price for his illegal activity, but Lott paid the price -- and his "activity" wasn't even illegal, even if you do interpret it as distasteful)"

Lott's activities were much worse than distasteful. Perhaps Gore did something wrong perhaps not. But that has NOTHING to do with Lott supporting segregation. He made a grave error. One which cannot be supported. He can be forgiven but he has shown that he is unfit to lead the Republican Senate both for his support of racism and his lack of political skill. The cycle ends with Lott. Trying to cloud the issue by attacking others is giving him tacit support. Supporting him in this is supporting racism. No party can survive which openly supports racism. The leaders of the Republican party, including GW Bush, apparantly realized this. That is why Lott has been forced to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:23 PM

Besides, there is no valid equation between Gore's attending an fundraiser at the Buddhist temple, and Lott's racist remarks. I fail to see the connection.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:17 PM

Lott is still a senator, and will wield a lot of influence. At least even the Republicans realized they had to do 'something' to recapture some moral ground. A point was made, and I suppose others who think like Lott will be a bit more careful in how they say it...but votes will still happen and the struggle for fairness will continue.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: TIA
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 02:09 PM

John Hardly -

Price paid by Lott: didn't get to lead the senate.
Price paid by Gore: didn't get to lead the executive branch.

Big Mick's analogy is a very good one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Tinker
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:49 PM

Jed. I'm a bit disappointed. This is one I live with, and Lott's standard would hang my husband and maybe I'd get out alive. Maybe. That was the southern standard at the time in question. Take another listen to Strange Fruit.

Yes, some folks make it with seeming ease. My husband went through Harvard and is working on Wall Street. Few folks who have met or worked with him question how he made it. Not all of the family did.

There are still serious barriers. WE are still raising kids who will write emails telling others they can't be part of "The Club" cause they are N****R lovers. Yes two girls were suspended from my daughters school this week. I'm not so sure the timing is accidental. Like it or not statements like Lott's give people permission to hate. Politically he was stupid. I'm not sorry.

Kathy

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:46 PM

Racism might go away if people couldn't profit from it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:43 PM

what? and C-span didn't cover Gore at the buddist temple?

Jack, how could the Republicans cross the line to satisfy you that when they condemn Lott they are condemning the racism inferred from his remarks? Haven't you more or less made the judgement that they must be doing otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:31 PM

Lott was condemned by his own party, for nothing more than political expediency. The democrats did not have to attack him. It was not his racist stance that condemned him, but his political stupidity.

As for anyone who stoops so low as to try to make this a Republican vs Democrat issue rather than a racist vs non-racist issue. Shame on you. Shame. Shame!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM

What price did Lott pay for attending and speaking at the meeting? None. He kept on his merry way, speaking his mind in 'safe' places as though he had no worries about keeping his public stance separate from the private. He has done that for years.

The difference this time is that C-Span was there. (Ha! I just realized that soon there will be a ban on allowing reporters into 'private' birthday parties. As though a 100th birthday party for a senator were private.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 01:05 PM

"at what point does the cycle end?"

When we get finally beyond the race problems which continue to plague us as a nation. Neither Democrats or Republicans have come to grips with the racial issues our nation's political leadership continues to prolong, for expediency and convenience sake.

The problems in our society stemming from our racial ideological past, North and South, Democrat and Republican, will never be solved as long as so many in the media and political establishment remain hell bent on maintaining their own status quo. The media is every bit as culpable as the politicians when it comes to these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:32 PM

ok mick. But even if your point was granted, at what point does the cycle end? Gore's Buddist temple shennanigans DIDN'T matter, as it turns out, BUT LOTT'S GAFF DID as it turns out (nothin' happened to Gore -- he paid no price for his illegal activity, but Lott paid the price -- and his "activity" wasn't even illegal, even if you do interpret it as distasteful)

You can't claim moral equivalency as you do without accepting that your side of the point paid no price whereas the other side DID.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

Jed, this is one we must disagree on.

Republicans continually maintain that "words have meaning" (a favorite Limbaugh line), and that folks must be held accountable for their deeds and words. We don't have to go back very far to hear Lott spewing this.

For a man as politically astute as he should be, his actions and words have finally come home to roost. Remember when you were all castigating Gore for the Buddhist temple stuff? How about Lott attending a segregationist gathering recently? His excuse? The same as Gore's; "I didn't realize....blah blah blah". I would suggest that he has surely shown remorse, but only political remorse. If this weren't the case, why would the President even rebuke him publicly. I would say he is not a good man, but a man caught. That is what you laid on us, During the Clinton years, as well as during the Gore campaign.

Racism is an inherent evil, that continues to affect us at every level of society today. To suggest that we would have been better off had a segregationist been elected President, is unforgiveable and damning.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:12 PM

Right katlaughing. Lott was driven out of the promised land by his own party. I have maintained all along that this was a no brainer. Anyone political leader speaking publicly as Lott did, praising the Dixiecrat segregationist agenda, gets what they deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:10 PM

John Hardly, I would argue that neither of your two assertions, as regards the Lott situation and segregation, is racist in the least. Both assertions recognize the harm done to this nation by slavery and it's continuing legacy in our society, and the need to atone for the racially motivated social problems which continue to plague our society.

But Lott & the Republican Party's current untenable positions on racially charged issues isn't just about African Americans. The sweep by immigration authorities in California this week was also done by the Republican administration, claiming on one hand to be tolerant of Arabs and Muslims, and on the other engaging in the most reprehensible, racially motivated internment campaign since the Japanese internment campaign of WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM

Assassinated, my arse.*bg* He shot himself in the foot, stuck his foot in his mouth, etc. I am delighted to hear he stepped down.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 12:00 PM

Both of you fine gentlemen would have a very valid point, in my opinion, if the concepts you so rightly point to, "free enterprise" and "equal access" had ever been tried. Unfortunately, like so many other great concepts, they remain untried and untested. Perhaps some day they will have their chance.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 11:38 AM

obviously some groups of people can't compete in a free enterprise so we must treat some of us as 'more equal then others'

... and if you don;t agree, you are racist.

Lott just stepped down as Senate majority leader. Another good man assassinated by the press.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 11:33 AM

Which is more racist:

Assuming that a major goal of government is to ensure that all have equal access to the opportunities of a society...

...or assuming that one group is unable to make their own way without a governmental helping hand?

Subject: BS: 'Lott, Reagan & GOP Racism'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 10:14 AM

I'm not looking to start a flame war here, but to discuss the current events regarding Lott & the Republican Party's quandry over "the race issue".

I paraphrased the title of an article at Time.com which is "Lott, Reagan and Republican Racism". The article is now being widely distributed on the internet, but this is the link I'm using:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,399921,00.html

This is how the article opens:

"Here's some advice for Republicans eager to attract more African-American supporters: don't stop with Trent Lott. Blacks won't take their commitment to expanding the party seriously until they admit that the GOP's wrongheadedness about race goes way beyond Lott and infects their entire party. The sad truth is that many Republican leaders remain in a massive state of denial about the party's four-decade-long addiction to race-baiting. They won't make any headway with blacks by bashing Lott if they persist in giving Ronald Reagan a pass for his racial policies.

The same could be said, of course, about such Republican heroes as, Barry Goldwater, Richard Nixon or George Bush the elder, all of whom used coded racial messages to lure disaffected blue collar and Southern white voters away from the Democrats. Yet it's with Reagan, who set a standard for exploiting white anger and resentment rarely seen since George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door, that the Republican's selective memory about its race-baiting habit really stands out."

While the Democrats certainly have plenty of blood on their hands in our nation's racist history, there are some historic facts that, at this point, can't be overlooked. The first is to look at the history of desegregation of the South, and the civil rights movement. Which party spearheaded the movement for social change in this regard? Not the Republicans. The Republican party took in the disenchanted and dispossessed segregationist Dixiecrats, and made ove the party of Linconln, into a party for white Americans.

While Democrats are still not above using race baiting to win elections, it is becoming an increasingly rare tactic, as it is considered too taboo, and for good reason of course. But the reason why I'm posting this, is because there really is so little Democratic Party "official" criticism of Lott, despite what the whiny wing of the conservative Republican Party claims. The attacks being leveled at Lott and the Republican Party are coming from within--from conservatives fearing that they have lost what they believed was a moral high ground for their conservative, war on everybody agenda, and from Republicans under the age of 40, who appear to be fucking clueless as to the realities of segregated Southern life today, and who have been so brainwashed by their Northern and Southern Republican elders on issues like affirmative action, the Confederate flag, and voting rights, that they don't even believe that racial discrimination continues to be a problem.

Despite all the high falutin' talk about "race healing" going round in Republican circles this week, I remain very skeptical about the Republican Party's ability to redeem itself in this regard.