Green Fields of France

Subject: Green Fields of France
From: Philippa
Date: 01 Jul 98 - 06:23 PM

Sorry, my mind's doing a blank on the Scots-Aussie author, but someone was looking for parodies of his songs. last month's forum?

Anyway I didn't see any respondent coming up with the one that includes these verses:

If you go for a drink on a Saturday night
A song and a pint, everything's going right
Till some drunk in his cups stumbles inside and
asks for that song they call Willie McBride
....
Oh Willy McBride, why did you have to die?
What trouble you'd saved us if you'd stayed alive
And got a wee job or even signed on the bru'
We wouldn't have to hear all those songs about you

[not that original deserved to be parodied, but when you hear too many drunks singing it and imitating Finbar Furey's accent...)

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 01 Jul 98 - 06:30 PM

G'day Philippa,

You speak (and parody), of course, of wee Eric Bogle.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: alison
Date: 01 Jul 98 - 08:26 PM

Hi,

Enda Kenny (Irish/Aussie) also does a good parody.

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Benjamin Bodhra/nai/
Date: 07 Jul 98 - 03:31 AM

And in the database there is a good parody including that, The band played waltzing matilda, and the Cockie, called "Bogled"

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: jehill
Date: 07 Jul 98 - 10:27 AM

Eric Bodle's song is called "No-man's Land". The line "The green fields of France" appears in it, but its not the title.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: jehill
Date: 07 Jul 98 - 10:31 AM

Er... fingers ...I can spell Eric Bogle's name. Honest.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Martin Ryan.
Date: 11 Jul 98 - 06:47 PM

Philippa

Almost inevitably - its in the DT! Written by Crawford Howard of Northern Ireland. Already spawning some variants!

Regards

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 11 Jul 98 - 07:20 PM

I love the way songs/ tunes get corrupted, especially their titles. Jehill says yon Green Fields is really called No Man's Land yet every version I've seen either recorded or in tadpole format aludes to it as Green Fields. Another classic is a tape I've got (can't remember by whom), playing "The Rattling Boy". Not much difference 'tween Boy and Bog unless of course you are in desperate need of one. I won't say which one, they may be ladies listening.

Mick

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 98 - 08:29 PM

Hi, Mick - I have two Eric Bogle CD's (Scaps of Paper & I Wrote This Wee Song) and one Peter Paul & Mary CD (Flowers & Stones) that call it "No Man's Land." Come to think of it, I've also got recordings of the song by Priscilla Herdman and June Tabor, who also call it "No Man's Land." Gawd, it's almost as omnipresent as "From a Distance" once was.
I swear I've also seen it recorded as "Green Fields of France," but I can't find it now.
Good song, but I have trouble singing the high parts. People say I sing a good tenor, but that song is just too damn high. I don't really think it's in Bogle's range, either.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 11 Jul 98 - 11:22 PM

G'day,
As far as I know Bogle called it "No Man's Land" and none of us Aussies would call it anything else. The alternative title seems to have come from Ireland. Every Irish recording/publication of it that I've ever seen calls it "TGFOF", but what can you expect: they're Irish.... Whoops, that'll have me in a heap of trouble at our next band practice. Sorry Alison.

The range seems OK given the right key. F works for me.

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Zorro
Date: 12 Jul 98 - 06:03 AM

The best version I've heard was John McDermott on his DANNY BOY album. There it's called Green Fields of France. Good song!

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: BK
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 12:06 AM

Seen it called all three.. First heard it on the streets of Dublin.. it really made a powerful impression. Learned it as GFF. This will probably always be it's name in my psyche. I generally squeak it by in "G" though "F" would probably work better.... but the chords are so easy in "G!"

Ah Well.. the 12-string is usually tuned down a couple frets - but I mostly play the 6 nowadays...

Fantastic song any way you call it..

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: BK
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 12:09 AM

OOPS.. forgot: the other sometimes name is "Flowers of the Forest."

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 01:22 AM

G'day all,

As I said in some other thread, it is a terrific song. I team it with a Henry Lawson poem from 1916; 'Scots of the Riverina' and just leave out the poem's family name to avoid confusion (the poem was originally about a family named Grahame but the name is only mentioned once) and as I end I slip into an unaccompanied 'No Man's Land'. It can bring tears to the toughest crowd!

As far as the name goes I would always call it what Eric Bogle called it - 'No Man's Land' but I'm sure Eric collects the royalties from the versions called 'Green Fields of France' ... or even (really confusingly) 'Flowers of the Forest'. After all, he is an accountant by training ... and a Scots one at that!

The really interesting thing to me is that Eric is so well known for two World War I songs when he is best enjoyed here, in Australia, as a very comic songwriter with a just slightly aslant view of Aussie habits and every now and then an very effective commentator on current events and trends. Still, the royalties from NML (or TGFoF - or FotF) and TBPWM keep him fat and sassy to keep us Aussies honest!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: O'Boyle
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 05:19 AM

For a possible ispiration for the song listen to Lock Hospital" by Christy Moore. It has a similar refrain.

Rick

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 05:21 AM

All, Now here was I thinking that Flowers of the Forrest was a tune in its own right, a wee Scots lament.
Anyway by far the best version you'll hear is by Kelly's Heroes, of whom I have mentioned before.
I always play it in G, as BK says, the chords are so easy.
Having talked about this to a friend at work (where I'm supposed to be now), he swears he has a version of it on some compilation CD, entitled William McBride.
Cheers
Mick

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 11:26 AM

I guess, if one hears a song and doesn't know the 'official title', he can be excused for calling it something else(till he learns better)but, there is SO much confusion already in the world...Sometimes people start a thread to ask for songs which are in the database because they don't know or can't spell the title. And sometimes the song is not in the database with the 'correct' title...(as in "I was Born About 10,000 Years Ago", which is there only as 1\2 of "Just the Fact's Ma'm").

But, Eric Bogle's songs are not that old, and widely known, and as we see, it causes no little confusion when folks gratuitously re-name them. And to call something other than the original song "The Flowers of the Forest" is simply careless.(yes, I know even THAT was re-written with more maudlin words way back when....*smile*..but I don't know anyone who sings it..)

I once heard a song Jean Redpath sand called 'Inverey', and askey in here for the words...only to learn that it had been there all along under the usual title,"The Baron of Brackley"..and I had failed to take Dick G's advice to look up text instead of title!!!

So. this is a plea for everyone to make every effort to avoid obvious re-naming--at least of songs with known authors and copyrights...

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 02:09 PM

I think that this is the "THE FLOWERS OF THE FOREST" that Bogle refers to in his "No Man's Land" song. Am I right? The tune isn't familiar to me - is there a tradition behind it? I gather it's used as a military mourning song, but that's just a guess.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Håvard
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 03:46 PM

Joe's link is definately the song Erig Bogle refers to in "No Man's land" - Loesberg's "Traditional Folksongs & Ballads of Scotland, vol 3" states:
"Out of the to versions extant, this is the 'modern' and most popular one. Set to an old har tune, it first appears in the Skene MS (c1630). The new words are ragments of the older song together with parts of 'I've heard them lilting' by Jane Elliot (1727-1805). The song speaks of the battle of Flodden (Sept 9th 1513). On that day King James IV, and the cream of Scottish nobility were slain by the troops of Henry VIII. The king, nine earls, fourteen lords, the chiefs of many highland clans, as well as thousands of nameless rank and file were massacred. The forest alluded to is the district containing the whole of Selkirkshire, parts of Peebleshire, and some of Clydesdale, which at one stage were a favorite hunting resort of the Scottish Kings and Nobles. The 'flowers" of the song may refer to the quality of the archers and footsoldiers that came from this area."
I have a version of "No Man's land" somewhere, with a female singer, and followed by the "Flower of the Forest" on Higlanf pipes.
As for parodies, this is my favorite Bogle song. However (as several have mentioned) it's not a very easy song to sing, and with the possible exeption of "Band played..." it's the most widely abused.
Håvard

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Jul 98 - 05:01 PM

Havard, I believe the Flowers refered to are, not so much the footsoldiers & archers of high quality but rather to the loss of the whole male population throughout that area of the countryside. From young boys to old men, they all fought & they all died, the women of that generation lost their fathers, husbands & sons, & it left horrid after affects for the following generations. Aside from the lack of mates, resulting in barren women, it also left a barren landscape, there was no blooming anywhere. Barry

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Graeme Dunbar
Date: 14 Jul 98 - 06:26 AM

The "female singer" you refer to might be June Tabor and the track is on "Ashes and Diamonds" (check title). Yes is does run into "Flowers of the forest" but played on electric piano/synthesiser by the sound of it - which dates it I guess.

I saw Eric Bogle last summer on his UK tour. In a little village hall in a place called Rothienorman in Aberdeenshire, Scotland. He is well worth a listen and I hope he comes back this way.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Håvard
Date: 14 Jul 98 - 03:37 PM

The female singer was June Tabor, singing on some compilation CD. Also Graeme was right about the synthesiser - obviously I can't hear the difference between an organ and the pipes ;-)

I find Barry's remarks very plausible - the explanation I offered was only a quoute. The end of each chorus reads "The Flowers o' the Forest are a'wede awa'", and the main theme is the lasses lamenting their lost beloved

Håvard

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,Athen
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:12 AM

Hi. I'm writing an essay on protest songs - two in particular, and this is one of them. As you'll all know there is more information and rumour going around than I can fit into 3000 words!

Someone told me that it's common for Irish singers to appropriate this song to use as a protest against the English - so it has this extra meaning as well as the original questioning of WW1.

What I would like to know is, please could any of you verify this? Anecdotal evidence must be backed up by some kind of academic reference! Makes it tricky when you're dealing with folk music...

Many thanks

Athen.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:34 AM

Nothing to do with singers, really. For many years, the many thousands of Irishmen who volunteered to fight in the British Army during the first world war, were regarded as traitors by SOME of their compatriots. The context of the song can remind some of "perfidious Albion". The attitude is slowly changing.

Regards

p.s. That said, there is certainly a long tradition in Ireland, in both her languages, of taking a localized political interpretation of songs that may not have had that in mind at time of composition!

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Andrez
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:49 AM

Yep, the good old folk process strikes again!

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:54 AM

Guest Athen, I have heard this song sung in Clubs associated with Irish nationalism. but I have never ever heard anyone refer to it as a protest song, we just sat back and enjoyed the performers rendition of a fine song.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:32 AM

Guest Athen

BTW - what's the second song?

Regards

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,Athen
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

Thanks for your replies!

The second song is completely different, MartinRyan, which is why I chose it - very little narrative, a big old party groove, in 4 time not 3, etc etc... anyway it's 'WAR (WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?)' by Edwin Starr.

Best regards.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: MartinRyan
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

Good idea!

Regards

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Marje
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:06 PM

As Martin Ryan has pointed out, a number of songs are interpreted by some Irish groups as having an element of Irish nationalism or anti-English feeling even when there's nothing much in the words, or indeed the intentions of the writer, to justify that.
The song, as you'll see elsewhere, is not called Green Fields of France, except by lazy singers who can't be bothered to get their attributions right. Eric Bogle who wrote it called it No Man's Land. The folk process does alter titles and lyrics, but when the author of a song is still alive, most people regard it as courteous to give him credit and try to get things more or less right. He's a Scotsman who moved to Australia, so he probably used the name "Willy McBride" to refer to a Scots soldier; this makes it rather an inappropriate target for anti-English sentiments, really.
Although done to death in some circles, it's still a good anti-war protest song.
Marje

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 01:16 PM

Flowers of the Forest is often played as a pipe lament, but the tune has to be badly distorted to fit. Some tunes are improved by that treatment, this one isn't.

Bogle's WW1 songs are way too long for me. Not as verbose as Brian McNeill but I wish he could have edited himself a bit more.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:53 PM

Jean Elliot added words to the tune 'Flowers of the Forest' as a lament to the young men who dies in the Battle of Flodden.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Effsee
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 07:32 PM

I've always been struck by the similar sentiments of Harvey Andrew's song "Hello Hans", can anyone tell me which one came first?

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: oldhippie
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:26 PM

Can you post the lyrics of "Hello Hans"?

Subject: Lyr Add: HELLO HANS (Harvey Andrews)
From: GUEST,effsee, sans cookie
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 09:42 AM

From an old thread:-

HELLO HANS
(Harvey Andrews)

Well, hello, Hans. I was passing, so I stopped to say hello.
You don't know me, and there's no reason now why you should ever know.
You died here, in some prison camp. Conditions weren't too bad.
Was it a wound, Hans, or maybe the shell-shock sent you mad?
You were twenty. That’s what it says upon the stone.
I'm trying to imagine what it's like to die all alone
At twenty, before you've had a chance to be half grown.
I was passing, so I stopped to say hello.

Can you see the child, Hans, the little girl who laughs upon your grave?
Not yours, Hans, not the ones you went to war to save.
See her father? He proudly picks her up and sits her down
On your tombstone, to take photographs that he can show around.
He was a young boy at the very moment that you died.
Maybe you had a little child to walk proudly by your side,
Or a young wife who tried so very hard but still she cried.
Can you see the little girl laugh on your grave?

So goodbye, Hans. I'll maybe come again some other time,
Because somehow that grave that's yours could easily be mine.
You see, there's wars, Hans. Men are trained to fight each other still.
It goes on, Hans. It always has. It seems it always will.
So I must go now. The young men milling round are making so much noise,
And as you remember, when they're together boys will always just be boys.
Unlike you, Hans, they've never been a country's broken toys.
So goodbye. I'll maybe come again some other time.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: quokka
Date: 26 May 08 - 12:35 PM

I love the original song - I first learned it from an Eric Bogle recording, and sang it (admittedly to a bunch of teenagers) in Ireland in 1984, and was surprised they didn't know it- when did the Fureys record it? Anyway they all loved the song. I've seen Eric perform many times and love his work, but I must say the various parodies are great! Yet another example of the folk process at work with a sense of humour! This is not to take anything away from those who fought for freedom, and I am sure Eric would understand the many different viewpoints on this complex issue.
Cheers,
Quokka

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 May 08 - 01:09 PM

This is their first recording of the song as far as I know. It was in released in 1979. At that time, their recordings were more popular in Germany and some were even only released in Germany. I don't know whether the BAN recording company mentioned is German.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:43 AM

On the question of the song name and marje's post: the lazy singers who refer to the song as green fields of france would have to include eric bogle himself. The Fureys changed the title when they brought the song out in America ( as well as making some poor changes,imho, to the words).

EB has commented on this in his introduction a couple of the times I have seen him and to paraphraase said " If the royalties keep coming I don't care what it gets called"

On the theme of "Flooers o' the forest" ( as Bogle wrote and sings) another song with a very similar sentiment is   " The ladies go Dancing at Whitsun"

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:23 AM

I remember I first heard Eric sing "No Man's Land", also "The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" and I think "Now I'm Easy" at Cecil Sharp House somewhere around 1977. Most of the other songs he did weren't at all like those three, in fact one was EXTREMELY rude.

Eric happily acknowledged in his intros that the first two songs had effectively become June Tabor's. I remember June doing TBPWM at the Enterprise with tears running down her face, also John Peel playing it on his programme and receiving piles of mail asking where the song came from.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:30 AM

The BAN recording company I have mentioned is "Banshee".

The EXTREMELY rude song might be Ice Queen one of the few EB doesn't include now among the songs on his webpage.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: Keefy
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:13 PM

For the definitive explanation (i.e. Eric Bogle's own) see:

Eric Bogle's
Limited Edition 5 CD Set
'Singing The Spirit Home'
CD 1 Sleeve insert.

(C) www.greentrax.com

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: oldhippie
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:28 PM

The June Tabor recording is on the 3CD UK compilation "Poppies" (Dressed To Kill Records 1997) later rereleased as "Universal Soldiers" (1999), and yes, it is "No Man's Land" (vocal)followed by "Flowers of the Forest" (inst.). The same compilation has "Green Fields of France" by the Fureys.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: pavane
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:30 AM

June first recorded it in the 1970's, I think on 'Airs and Graces'.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: trevek
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:59 AM

The use of "Flowers of the Forest" in the lyric is because it is a mourning lament played over the dead of the battlefield.

Barnbrack actually have a version where they start with FotF and then go into NML.

I have a copy of the Furey's songbook where they credit their version with be learned "from the singing of.... (somebody whose name I forget)", which suggests they didn't worry about finding the correct lyrics before recording it.

Apparently there have been a number of attempts to identify if there was really a Willie McBride and sevral have been identified as having been in Irish or Scots regiments (no real surprise).

With regards to Irish nationalism, what really annoys me is when some ignorant sod (usually a Sun reader) tells me I'm singing a rebel song (presumably because it has a line about 1916 and was sung by an Irish band).

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:39 PM

The Fureys have never been partcularly bothered about getting words and titles right. On their first album they record "Flowers in the Valley" (Child #11) which they learned off Gordon Geekie who sang it more or less as printed in Baring Gould. Eddie's version has got lots of pretty words but completely misses the point that the maiden wants a lover who is assertive and doesn't use the words "may" and "might" all the time.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: NOMADMan
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:30 PM

Just to get the dates correct - June Tabor's original recording, under the song's correct title, "No Man's Land" was on her "Ashes and Diamonds" LP on Topic, published in 1977. The track includes Jean Elliot's "Flowers of the Forest." Accompaniment is by Jon Gillaspie on piano and synthesizer, according to the sleeve notes.

Regards,
John

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: GUEST,Susanne (skw), still travelling
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:08 AM

I can believe Eric isn't all that put out about receiving royalties from the Furey version, but I did hear him say (in an aside, on stage at Tonder Festival), 'I wish the Fureys had bothered to ring me up to get the words right before they recorded No Man's Land!' or words to that effect. He's definitely got a point, I think, especially as the new words changed the whole meaning and background of the song. That can't be right.

Subject: RE: Green Fields of France
From: trevek
Date: 29 May 08 - 07:11 AM

True, some of the lines don't really make as much sense. The other thing is that now if you sing EB's version you get someone telling you that "You don't know the words, mate!"