Beagle or Beadle?

Subject: Beagle or Beadle?
From: GUEST,Keef
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:14 AM

In the song Craigie Hill there is a line that refers to The landlords and their agents, their bailiffs and their beagles. Call me a pedant if you will, but I think perhaps it should be Beadle (as in Mr Dickens parochial beadle) as I cannot percieve of what use a wuzzy slobbering beagle would be in a forced dispossion situation. I think a beadle was some minor beaurocrat of old. Am I right or wrong and does anyone else really give a stuff!

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:45 AM

Looking at the lyrics and context of the verse I would tend to agree with you - it should be Beadle not Beagle.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 05:48 AM

Not Jeremy I hope.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Noreen
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:23 AM

Definitely beadles. I've never heard it sung otherwise.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:26 AM

Beagles? Good grief!

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:45 AM

A Beadle is the man, a Beagle is a small foxhound ok
Dave

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:50 AM

Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary:
"beagle: n, a small hound tracking by scent....hunting hares: sometimes, a harrier; a spy: a bailiff: a small kind of shark."

So either could be correct.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:56 AM

Or it could be "bagels"?

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:00 AM

Beagles - daftest dogs in creation

Once watched a pack chase a hare. The beagles were hot in pursuit, heads down, hot on the scent. The hare ran into this cul-de-sac part of a field closely followed by the beagle pack. The hare couldn't get out so just ran straight back through the middle of the pack and off into the countryside - not one single beagle in that pack even lifted its nose from the ground to watch him. We were in tucks, helpless with laughter for about five minutes - so much for being vicious, tenatious, merciless killers from whom no prey is safe.

Had a word with the Huntsman at the pub later, he told me that they frequently get lost on hunts and are totally incapable of fending for themselves - daftest dogs in creation, was his description.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: jimlad
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:57 AM

Our Beagle has just finished a hard mornings work.

He has been around the neighbourhood and collected a heap of yardbrushes,doormats and 1 fat filled half coconut

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM

But what about the ones you've heard of and should have never seen?

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Declan
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:29 AM

In parts of Ireland the landlords local lackey was known as the Beagle, probably to do with the notion of them behaving like a puppy dog in the ladlords presence - or maybe its a local corruption of Beadle. I know a number of people who still use this word as a term of abuse, but they generally pronounce it as if it were spelt bagel.

Beagle (pr. bagel) the way I sing it. I can't be certain at this stage, but I think that's how Paddy Tunney used to sing it as well. I've never noticed anyone singing it as Beadle, but obviously some people do. When I hear people sing it with the standard pronunciation of beagle it doesn't seem quite right.

Somehow I think if the landlords were literally hounding people out of their homes, they'd use a different breed of dog !

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 08:33 AM

As I pointed in the Dictionary quote above (although I failed to highlight it first time around):

Chambers Twentieth Century Dictionary:
"beagle: n, a small hound tracking by scent....hunting hares: sometimes, a harrier; a spy; a bailiff; a small kind of shark."

Nigel

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:33 AM

The verse the term comes up in goes:

"The landlords and their agents, their bailiffs and their beagles
The land of our forefathers we're forced for to give o'er
And we're sailing on the ocean for honor and promotion
And we're parting with our sweethearts, it's them we do adore"

As bailiffs are already mentioned, what would be the reason for the repetition?

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 10:44 AM

As a beadle is "A minor parish official formerly employed in an English church to usher and keep order during services" (AmHerDict) it would make little sense for the bailiff to be said to own one. The repetition is just a poetic alliteration. Songs aren't constrained by logic. (Unless some republican has been working late at night to drum up a new law...).

A

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Trevor
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 11:41 AM

Perhaps it's beetles. Or weevils. Or needles. Only trying to help...

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 12:03 PM

I have wondered what a beadle was since I first saw the musical "Sweeney Todd". In that play the judge has a beadle who is apparently an official of the court. None of the above definitions seem to go there. What gives?

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 01:02 PM

Just as a constable can be a PC plod or the Chief Constable or highest-ranking copper in the force (ditto for Sheriff), it is reasonable for a word like beadle to have multiple connotations. It generally seems to apply to a minor officer cum enforcer of the rules, mainly but not exclusively in a Church context. In French, as "bedeau", it seems to be exclusively a Church appointment (or was, now they haven't even got priests in a lot of parishes!).

There's a Yiddish word "Schammes", which seems to have started off meaning something broadly similar, mainly amounting to a synagogue caretaker but also cropping up in US detective stories as a reference to the guy who does the legwork. In that context, it's often spelt Shamus which gives it a misleadingly Irish appearance.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 06:58 PM

Nigel there is also a small shark called a ' nurse ' but I wouldn't want one tending to my soft parts.
Dave

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Gareth
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 07:07 PM

Beadle - A minor functionary in English Parishes - Main responsibility of enforcing the Parish Law's including that of the "Workhouse"

VIDE the film "Oliver" the late Sir Harry Secombe played the 'Beadle'

Gareth

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jan 03 - 09:29 PM

Lox and beagles?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: GUEST,Keef
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:30 AM

Many thanks for all the inputs evrybodies. I think now I can just enjoy the song knowing that both versions are probably equally valid although the vision of a killer attack beagle driving the poor tenants from their miserable dwelling is just a tad weird.
Incidentally the DB sez Beagle and I know the song from a CD by Taliesin which also sez Beagle.
I know wot I'll do I'll sing it meself and I'll sing BEADLE cos I like to have the last word!
......................Keef

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Declan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:05 AM

Thanks to this thread I got out an old tape of Paddy Tunney, who is the acknowledged source of most of the people who sing this song, and he definitely sings beagle rather than beadle. As to pronunciation he doesn't pronounce it exactly like bagle, but the first syllable definitely sounds closer to Bay than to Bee.

Anyway its nice to get an excuse to dust off the old tapes and have a listen every now and again.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Noreen
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:24 AM

Indeed so, Declan. I must do the same- I can hear Paddy singing it very clearly, in my head, and I could have sworn he sings beadles.... must be my brain translating into what I expect to hear!

Paddy is, after all, the acknowledged source as you say, so my apologies if I misled anyone.

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:29 PM

He wrote it down as "beagles", too (The Stone Fiddle, 1979).

Subject: RE: Beagle or Beadle?
From: Keef Wivaneff
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 03:36 AM