Music and Depression

Subject: Music and Depression
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:10 AM

In October I went from fiancee to ex. Since then I have been unable to enjoy music at all. I fear I am losing my ability to make music. The few times I've dragged myself to a coffeehouse I have not enjoyed the effort of getting up on stage and I have not been happy with my performances.

I do suffer from depression and have started taking anti-depressants again. This doesn't seem to help.

Any similar stories or suggestions?

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:18 AM

Naemanson:

What??? I am sorry!! I hadn't heard.

You are NOT losing your ability.

You're just sitting in the loss of it all. Not exactly a musical moment.

If I were handing out suggestions, I would suggest you throw yourself into physical activity. Chopping wood, building with large timbers, planting a garden, or just walking a mile and back every day.

Healing from a shock like that takes time. But you don't have to succumb to it. There is a way through and out.

A

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:21 AM

I can't speak to the question directly, but it occurs to me that you are not happy with the activity of music ("getting up on stage") - but perhaps you might immerse yourself in other people's recorded music and find some solace or connection. Try variety ... go to the library and find some things you've never tried before and maybe wanted to ... try blues, especially old blues, try classical, try choral or opera ... maybe this coupled with your efforts to treat the depression (it sounds like you are doing that) will rekindle your enjoyment of performance.

Best of luck.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:25 AM

Anhedonia, or the loss of the ability to enjoy things you would normally enjoy is a classic symptom of depression, and it is certainly one from which i suffer when I am depressed. Try not to let your lack of enjoyment stop you from doing these things altogether, as that is likely to compound the problem as you become more withdrawn.

Have anti depressants worked for you in the past? Maybe you and your doc need to tinker around with the dose, or change the drug. I know I have had to tinker around with medication quite a lot until I found the right combination. Or maybe you could try some other sort of treatment, like cognitive therapy or something similar. Talk to your doc about your options.

On the self help front, if there is anyone you can talk to about how you feel, then do. If not, try writing it down, for example in a diary. Also, try to keep doing things even though you are not enjoying them to the same extend, and keep in touch with people if you can. Exercise is also thought to be good in treating depression, so try to do some regularly - in the fresh air and daylight if you can.

Depression is beatable (even if it has a tendency to return). And you *can* beat it.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

I tend to get depressed from time to time, but I think it's hormones. I think it's perfectly normal to mourn the loss of a relationship. The problem is when the mourning period should be over and you seem to be stuck there. You know you just have to wait it out, so you wait...and wait.

Bagpuss sounds like a professional. In any case, she(?) makes perfect sense. Much of what goes on is chemical, but I don't believe we have absolutely NO control, but how much depends on each individual. Excercise does help, even if it's just going out for a walk. Talking with people - well, you're not alone, are you? I tend to feel worse when there are no distractions and I can crawl up me own arse in peace. If I do have distractions, I usually don't have the time or attention span to dwell on how miserable I am. Of course, this only helps if the depression isn't bad enough to completely immobilise you.

I also think some form of therapy (what's 'cognitive therapy'?) might be beneficial - not just to get you out of this episode, but perhaps help prevent or minimize future episodes. Might just give you some mental tools to help fight the beast.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:06 PM

It sounds as if music has become a solitary occupation .... eg performance at the coffee house ......and therefore something of a chore .
Is this how music used to be when you had a partner. did she used to comer along and support you when you played?

Do you need to find a new venue or session where you are joining with other musicians and really having fun?

Do you need to get away to a festival????

Do you need to try playing a new instrument????

I get depressed at times as well but, fortunately for me, that seems to be the time when I write most of my songs.

Hope this is only a temporary faze and that life will sort itself out in a positive way for you.

All the best
Hazel

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:20 PM

Naemonson,

Please look into Cognitive Therapy. Also, please get the following book, "Overcoming Depression--A Cognitive Therapy Approach for Taming the BEAST." (The last word is not shouting, it's an acronym) by Mark Gilson and Arthur Freeman. You can purchase it through Psycorp.com.
You will find it most helpful. Get the Client edition.

Cognitive Therapy is a specific approach to treating depression and anxiety that relies on a number of exercises (charting, and they work.

Physical exercise is a good suggestion given to you. Also, even though you don't find much joy in doing the music now, keep doing it regardless because it will change if you don't quit. The most important thing is to keep active at the necessary things of life but also at things you would normally enjoy.

You can lick this thing.

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM

I had very good luck with counseling. I was only sorry I hadn't done it years ago. I ditto what everyone else has said. :-)

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Micca
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:28 PM

Naemanson, some of the above has worked for me, Listening to Mahler and Mozart or Wagner is usually beneficial, Great overwhelming music!! I tend to avoid ,if possible, Blues and depressing music....and like Nutty I write songs too. many of the ones I have written at such times are CRAP!!! but there has been the odd Gem. but they help release feelings, Poetry too works, Not FOR anyone, Just for me!! good Luck with it,hope you are better soon, hope to sing with you sometime!!

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: harpgirl
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM

...well, I hate to sound like a professional. I think the best way to get over an old love is to find a new love, Bret. You're so cute, once you're back in circulation you'll recover quickly, I think. Good luck

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Morticia
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:42 PM

I am so sorry to hear this, Brett although I had an idea something was up.I suffer from clinical depression and have become my own 'expert' in dealing with it but what works is very subjective.For me the overwhelming bit that makes it depression rather than just being a bit pissed off is the feeling of EVERYTHING being out of my control.Apathy sets in and bingo, I'm back on mummy's ( or daddy's) little helpers.

I've learned over the years that if I can spot the signs in time and accomplish something ( anything) in a day, I gradually start to feel better so I MAKE myself go for a walk, clean out a drawer, return those library books.....whatever seems realistic to accomplish that day. As a feeling of having more control, and of course, more order in my life returns,I start to feel better.This is not a quick fix, it can take weeks or months but it works for me.

I hope you start to feel better soon and I'm willing you on from over the sea.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:48 PM

I write songs when I'm depressed too - I just never finish them. Good thing, as I can usually look at them later on and finish them in a way that's more hopeful...because mine are also usually CRAP.

Through the years, I've always found playing music helps. Sometimes music felt like my only friend and one that would never let me down. Now, I often don't feel like playing when I feel depressed. I force myself to pick up an instrument and once I do, it does make me feel better. Singing to myself doesn't have the same effect. Singing with others is probably better than anything - it can just seem like an enormous effort to get there.

Sometimes, just keeping your hands busy can help. When my father died, my best friend bought me a paint-by-numbers thing. I wasn't sure if I should be insulted, since we were both heavily into real oil painting. I got it out at one point and found myself losing hours in this no-brain-required activity. It doesn't fix anything, but it does allow a little vacation from thinking, just like meditation.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: mg
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:01 PM

Very very loud Linda Rondstadt albums...does chocolate work for men? No refined sugar or starch. More protein and vegetables and fats (olive oil, butter, nut oils, fish oil). Lots of fish. Feed your brain. Lots of sea air. If you meet nice women, tell them what is going on so you don't accidently lead them on if you are not able to consider anything long-term right now. mg

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:34 PM

Morty, with me it's apathy too. When I get into that "who cares" gear, I have to stop and throw it in reverse. Now I know what to watch for and how to deal with it.

Someone suggested keeping your hands busy, and I will heartily second that. I like to make things and that always helps - especially making and giving a gift to a friend.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: KJ
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:41 PM

You're bereaved & grieving & suffering from a loss,depression is a common & a natural occurrence after such an event. It takes time to work through it so don't think of it as pathological just yet. Your music is in you & always will be, sometimes it does get lost for a while but in time it can be reclaimed & is sometimes better & more fulfilling than it was before. Keep slogging away & do what is right for YOU, be kind to yourself & love yourself.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

Naemanson,

Depression can be tricky sometimes. You get so used to it that you think you're at a normal state of mind. Check with your Doctor and tinker with meds; exercise; do some volunteer work. Helping others is a great way to feel good about what you're doing, and others benefit as well.    Eat healthy and sleep 8 hours.   

So after all the good advice, you can get through this. Find things to enjoy about being single before hooking up again. Being happy as you are increases the likelyhood of a positive relationship in the future.    (oops - that was advice too)

Take care and PM me if you wish.

Hippie Chick

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: harvey andrews
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:00 PM

I was down like I had never been so down in my life, but that's not the story. The story is that in the deepest down I walked into Woolworths.At that time they were selling a series of LP's called "music for pleasure". cheap but excellent. I thumbed through the rack and something told me that as I was going to start a new life I should start it now. For no reason I can fathom I bought two LP's one of two Mozart symphonies and the other of pieces by Delius. I had one or two classical records but I hardly ever listened to them. Within a few days I played the Delius every few hours. The effect those pieces had on me was unbelievable. Every play was one step more up that depression mountain to the sun. The Mozart kicked in too and I found myself buying an LP a week and building a collection of music I'd never really listened to before. No words, no voices, just sound.
I can honestly say Delius saved my life.
I don't know what your "Delius" will be, but it's out there. Sounds like a new life is about to begin. Ditch the pills and fight back.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Ed.
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:12 PM

Harvey,

Delius didn't save your life. You did that bit. Delius was a helpful voice.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: wilco
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:58 PM

Naemanson:
      For 35 years, I've worked professionally, of and on, with situations like yours. Lots of great advice has already been given.
      I would add a few thoughts.
      The first is that you probaly are depressed, and it is a natural response to a deeply felt loss.
      What really jumps-out at me is the statement that you have started taking meds "again." In neuro-biological disorders, the right mix of meds occurs in about 5% of the cases, on the first try. In other words, it might take some time to get the right meds at the right strength. Also, it takes about a week or two for meds like proaac and paxil to "kick-in." Sometimes. you might have to try several meds to get the right one.
      Don't isolate yourself. Make it a point to go places, see people, do things, etc.
      If I've learned anything in 35 years, it's this: Time really does heal lots of things. We have all had our hearts broken too.
      feel free to PM me.

Wilco in Tennessee

      It is important to talk to somebody, a good friend will do.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: nutty
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 05:38 PM

Jeri ... you are right about most of the songs being crap ...in fact most of them don't get finished - BUT - just occasionally, I will come across something that I have scribbled on the back of an envelope and am able to craft it into a song that I am happy with.

The main thing is that when I'm depressed I can't be bothered with books or TV, so have a mind open and receptive to ideas.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM

N...back on meds? Why did you go off of them? Depression is related to seratonin levels in the brain. Medication (and exercise) help to increase the level and you feel better, focus better, function better. Why stop? If side effects are an issue, work with your doctor to change. But stopping seems pretty self defeating.

Therapy worked for me. It took five years and I wish I had had it when I was twenty. But I look back to the time when I was depressed, even suicidal, and wonder at how simple it all was and how hard I made it for myself.

Try not to shut yourself away from people who care about you. If you don't want to sing, then come encourage others in their efforts. Or play that incredibly beautiful bargain guitar. See you in Portsmouth?

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:19 PM

Amos – That's a good suggestion but in the process of losing my fiancée I also lost my house and my bank account. I now live in a one bedroom apartment. Plus it's winter and it's Maine with three feet of snow on the ground and temperatures hovering near and below zero. Still, it's warmer than her heart.

Bagpuss – Thanks. I try to keep on keeping on. Counseling is not an option because of my financial/health insurance situation. I managed to get my doctor to prescribe the same antidepressants I used a couple of years ago and they seem to be helping somewhat. I am still trying to do music but my heart just doesn't seem to be in it. I've tried keeping a diary but I have to be careful not to read it because that deepens my depression.

Jeri – Yes, I am alone. My kids have both gone off to college and with Rebecca gone I tend to spend a great deal of time by myself. I am getting used to it and I do get out and about occasionally but that is very dependent on money. The toughest part is in the morning when I have to force myself into my clothes and out the door. Once I get moving I am better but there have been mornings when I lose that fight.

No-brain activity – Yeah, I've found that helps. In my case it's video games. I figure every hour spent not thinking of her is a successful hour.

nutty – She used to enjoy coming to my performances. It was nice to see her in the audience. It played hell with my ability to sing heartbreak songs when I was in love. I now do a hell of a job on Sally Free And Easy though.

There are several suggestions for exercise. I try but there are times when I can't get past the inertia of the depression. I used to work out daily and felt great but now I am having a tough time getting to the gym on a regular basis. I gotta work on this.

Keeping busy should help. I have a great spot in my apartment for a small workbench. I've always wanted to explore the mysteries of the hand cut dovetail joint so I will try to build a woodshop in the pass through between the kitchen and living room.

mary garvey – Unfortunately the last thing I need is anything to add to my already ample padding so chocolate should not figure in my cure.

wilco48 – The meds I settled on were the result of a lot of tinkering while under professional care. They seemed to be helping but I was never able to figure out how much was due to the pills and how much was due to my own improvement. I quit taking the pills several months into my relationship and didn't notice any diminution of good attitude. Go figure.

Hooking up again – Never more. All relationships end in tears and I am done crying. I am discovering the good parts of a single life and I hope to settle into it as best I can.

I am planning to move to Europe this year so a change of environment is in the cards. This one is the third failed relationship in this area and I am surrounded by reminders. It's time to move on.

Thanks to everyone for your help and support. I appreciate al those who have offered their services by PM. I am riding an emotional roller coaster right now, some days I am up and some days I am down. I cannot seem to cross that half way line and get up into the upper half of the scale though. And I don't derive a great deal of pleasure from music either. But I have hope.

By the way, I only have internet access at work these days so don't worry if you don't see me here for the next three days. I will see you, Jeri, tomorrow as I will be in Portsmouth for the day and want to hit the Press Room in the evening.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: mg
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:02 AM

Not so quick. All relationships do not end in tears. Some have happy endings and middles.

Did fiancee do a number on you or was it a case of her realizing that the relationship was not one she could continue in, and let you down as gently as possible? If (a) I will lead the posse and we'll make her rue the day. If (b) there are other women out there and Mudcat Matchmaker Service might be able to help in due time. mg

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Mudlark
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:42 AM

Naemanson...lots of good advice here, plus sometimes it just takes time. I was a lifelong book addict...until my husband died. I still have trouble concentrating on the written word, nearly 2 yrs later. I lost music for a while too, but was able to get it back by hooking up with a music program sponsored by Hospice. I started playing in convalescent and long-term care facilities and it really helped me get back into playing and singing...I wasn't doing it "for myself" but working out appropriate songs for a much older crowd, trying to come up with sing alongs, etc. Quite different from my usual approach.

Don't give up on love...if love hasn't been good to you, now is the time to figure out why. If councilling appeals, even w/o funds you can usually find some support if you look around, either minimum cost or at least sliding scale. You can be your own therapist tho, if you're willing to work at it. There are those that say the unexamined life is not worth living!

A thot for you: time heals all wounds. A thot for her, if she really did you wrong: time wounds all heels. Breathe often, smile as much as you can...

Nancy

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:40 AM

Distilling the remarks and adding some of my own thoughts:

First and foremost, Depression is normal and your body is simply telling you that a period of adjustment is necessary. I go through depression because of this kind of event--usually the death of a loved one (and you're dealing with the death of a relationship). It looks like everyone posting remarks here has also dealt to some degree with depression, and after a while you learn how to use it, and sometimes, how to head it off. (We should all agree that this plagues very intelligent highly gifted individuals!)

I'm personally very afraid of the medications, so have avoided them. Didn't even use painkillers when I had my children. Finding yourself curled up in fetal position isn't great, so you need to look outside yourself for answers, but you also need to talk and find answers in yourself. As one who frequently contributes long messages to these threads (Duh. . .) I find Freud's talking cure to be the most effective for me.

Things you can do:

Make a plan. Decide what short and long term goals are important to you, and that you can accomplish. (Europe is a good long term goal.) Visualization is extremely helpful when making plans AND fighting depression.

Get plenty of daylight (Ott lights work well for extra light in the house, in winter, etc.)

Humor (what makes you laugh out loud? The Golden Girls and Frasier have me in stitches, as do any number of the British comedies on PBS. (Did you see My Hero last week, when he bonded with his in-law's pet dog. . . ?)

As you have already figured out, careful with the music. Too sweet or energetic and it's cloying. Too dark and it is horribly depressing. I had to choose music very carefully. I play the piano, and found that helped.

Make a list of what you accomplish each day, even little stuff, to see how well you're actually doing. Dishes, laundry, cooking dinner all count.

I like Mary's suggestion of Linda Ronstadt albums. Her music is very easy to dance to, and dancing (like any physical activity) is good to battle depression.

Harvey Andrews has it right on as far as finding success with the music that works for you. He did it it himself with the music as aid. I made myself a cassette of the various pieces that sounded good for me, and played it when I needed it.

Talking with a good friend who listens can be just as good as going into counselling.

Moderate exercise will help with the endorphins, and you will feel more at peace if you can reach that level of exertion.

Good luck. You have come far enough to reach out to this Mudcat family to ask for help, now don't continue to beat up on yourself. Let some of these good wishes sink in. Seriously. Look at what people like Kendall have been through in the past year, and the miracle that we saw unfold, as Mudcatters offered advice and made connections for him and helped him get the best of care and of cures. Take the energy this society offers and put it to good use.

SRS

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:02 AM

Hey Naemanson,
I now have an ex-fiance (it's been one year now), and I have clinical depression (not related to the break up it seems). I get what you're going through. Medication is a help when all is so hopeless-seeming that you just don't care if you're living or dead, but as you'll know already, it takes a while to kick in.
For me, when I was at my lowest (not actively seeking to kill myself - it's just that if I'd fallen off a cliff I wouldn't have put a hand out to stop myself) I couldn't do anything without being overwhelmed by grief and misery. Listening to music was right out. I normally sing around the house (when there's no one there to hear me), but I couldn't manage even that.Concentration was impossible. Sleep was impossible. Living seemed pretty damn impossible. In didn't even want to be on Mudact - I didn't want to talk to anyone.
I don't know what has got me to the more calm state I'm in now - probably the medication mostly. Being in daylight helped a lot - nighttime was, and still is, a time when everything played on my mind.I'm still no good with sad music, but I can listen to upbeat stuff. I even caught myself humming when cleaning out my fridge the other day.
And as for your video games - you should try playing Riven - it's lovely and superbly mind-absorbing (if you like twisty, difficult puzzles and beautiful graphics).

Good luck...

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:16 AM

Brett, my friend,

I have just one item that might help... all the stuff above is great, but... since you have been in this spot before, what is the one thing you could do, this time, different from what you have done before? What is that one thing that may feel like the last thing you'd normally choose to do, but which you COULD do, that would be JUST the thing to do?

Love and hugs,

~Susan

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:06 PM

The advice to write songs, as given by a couple of people above, is what works best for me. It doesn't matter if they're any good or not. Pain is an excellent motivator, and creating something is good therapy. After all, that's where all those blues and cry-in-your-beer honkey tonk songs come from. Best thing about it is, this form of 'therapy' doesn't cost anything either.

Althought it might be hard to find sometimes, there's always a positive aspect to sad situations. They are opportunities for us to turn them into something useful/productive. And too, it could've been worse. You coulda got married, invested years in a commitment only to have all this crap rain down on you. Better now than later.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM

"anhedonia, or the loss of the ability to enjoy things you would normally enjoy is a classic symptom of depression"

Wow, I didn't know there was an actual name for this symptom. I'm dealing with this right now... I've been feeling like crap for about a week since not making it in our local showcase of our local folk series. (2 openings, only 11 entries. So pretty good odds, but I didn't make it again.) Now, yeah, rejection is a fact of life, and it's no big deal, but it's really made me question my worth as a songwriter and performer. (Truth be told, I am certainly no great performer, but I can get the point of my songs across, and I think I am a decent enough songwriter. Plus, to me doing original material of worth should count a little more than another cover of Paradise or whatever... I wasn't too impressed with the 2 folks that made it last year, but I also don't know what their demo/submission was like- in all fairness, it could have been much better than their live sets were. But anyway...)

As far as anhedonia, I haven't felt like touching the guitar since. There's just a big void where the part of my that usually says "hot dog! Got a half hour, let's get out the Taylor!"

For me, time is the great healer, and talking to the right person is good too...anyway, I think there's been some great advice here and most importantly, know that you're not alone. I think Townes Van Zandt described depression best when he said that it was like a big wave rolling in, and you could see it coming, and there wasn't nothing you could do to stop it...

but hopefully, we dry out soon enough. Take care, believe in yourself and be well.

Jim

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,Pinetop Slim
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:35 PM

After all the good advice above, I feel a bit silly mentioning the I Ching, but it has helped me get out of the darkness a couple of times. When depressed, I tend also to get confused. Tossing the coins and studying the readings (I often have to read the same paragraph over and over; that counts as studying doesn't it?)seem to help me focus once again. Whether you regard the readings as erudite fortune cookie slips or not, they always seem to point to some basic values that I periodically need reminding of. Mozart certainly sounds better and woodwork looks more interesting. Whatever you do, take care of yourself. You're a very valuable contributor to Mudcat and I bet the same spirit accompanies you in the 3-D world.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM

Brett:

Start with anything physical you can do at all, even if it is just emptying the trash. Cold or not, leave the house and walk around the block. Move that body. THrow snowballs. Make an igloo.   Plain physical action will at least start you rejoining the "time stream". If you WERE with someone who loved you right now, you'd want them to be kicking your sorry butt back into life as fast as possible. As you care for yourself, do your own butt kicking. You do not have to be terrorized or laid low. Struggle though it be -- and believe me I have been there -- the very best thing you can do is take boot out of mouth and apply to ass. The only way to get life back into your cells and nerves is to pour it on there yourself. Trust yourself to do that, fast.

Affection and regards,


A

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Kim C
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:42 PM

Y'all follow along with me here for just a minute.

Remember in Dances with Wolves, how Wind In His Hair was so hateful to the Lieutenant at first? Finally they became friends. Wind In His Hair said something to the effect of, I didn't want to like you, because the woman was going to marry my best friend, and he was killed.

And the thing he said next has stuck with me always. He said...

I think he left because you were coming.

I remember that every time I feel a loss. Of course nothing can replace some of the people, things, situations we lose. New experiences have a beauty all their own, and somehow magically arrive when we are ready. And sometimes we discover, the things we lost, were really not that important after all.

Sure, it sucks in the meantime. A lot of us here know that firsthand. Sometimes you wonder if you will ever feel better, if you will just have to find joy in misery and learn to live with it. But look at how the sun comes up every morning; and even in parts of the world where there's 6 months of darkness, the sun still comes back, it just takes a little longer.

I understand how that right now you can feel like all relationships end in tears. But even the very best riders will tell you, you have to fall off the horse a lot before you can stay on. ;-)

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

'COurse seeking intimacy with a quadruped is not the problem at hand, Kim, but I see the wisdom in your words. Loss only occurs in within a rigid horizon, and its power and its madness are built on the desire to stop things from moving. That's the nature of the thing.

The path out of loss is to make things start moving again, one way or another.

A

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:25 PM

One thing I'm not sure I've seen mentioned above, is helping others. Volunteer at a homeless shelter or food kitchen. Immersing yourself in others misfortune can sometimes give you a whole new perspective about life and what's really important. This is not to downplay your problems but can help you to not dwell on them and also feel good about yourself. It works. All the best to you.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:12 PM

"COurse seeking intimacy with a quadruped is not the problem at hand" -- well actually, I found adopting a 14 month old puppy did good things for my depression, in order to meet her needs I had to get out and about 'cause if I don't walk her for at least an hour she turns into a volcano. Some days her walk was all I accomplished...but at least I did that!

Good luck in slaying your demons, it's hard work adn it takes time.

KateG

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Maybe it will help to take a close look at all three relationships and try to figure out the common factors. It could simply be that you are attracted to people who are not capable of loving you as you need to be loved. If you can identify the immediate attraction trigger, you will then know who is to be avoided. Of course, that means that you you will probably have to forego that intense "instant gratification" honeymoon time and concentrate on developing long term friendships that may (or may not) lead to commitment.

SINS, who wishes she could follow her own advice.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 05:51 PM

Thanks whoever gave this thing a clinical name.. it sounds much better on the forms at work, rather than 'couldn't be arsed to get up because I can't face a day without.....' Sounds flippant, but it's true.

It also tells me why I've not wanted to sing as much as I used to - aside from the fact that the music director said some very hurtful things he's not apologised for, because he doesn't realise how nasty he was being.

Accomplish small steps. When you've done one step, try another. If you can't do it today, do it tomorrow, because tomorrow you know you've already done the first step without harm.

LTS

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Joan from Wigan
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 04:25 AM

I've very little to add to all the above good points, but when I've been depressed about a broken relationship, I've written a song or songs about it, then sung them and sung them in private until all the feeling has been sung out of them. I then throw them away. Those songs will never ever become public, they're my personal therapy and for no other ears.

I would also agree that time does heal all wounds. I find it usually takes a good twelve months before I'm back to normality, and different people probably have their own "usual" periods. With each broken relationship, though, I learn better how to cope - I've done it before, I can do it again. Remember back to previous breakups, identify the things that helped you to recover then, and apply those things again, plus other similar things. Time does its healing bit whether you're thinking about it or not, and I find it's easier all round if I think about it as little as possible. Do the physical exercises and get out as much as you can, see friends as much as you can, do things which will take your mind off it, however temporarily.

I would also add that until you are truly over one relationship, you cannot deal honestly with another. Stay away from new relationships until you are absolutely certain that the demons of this one have skidaddled back to wherever demons go. It is totally unfair to any new potential partner to still be grieving about the previous one.

I have been through the apathy of not being able to face going out, but I know if I'm able to make the (almost superhuman) effort, I do feel a lot better by going out. My way of getting out in those situations was to go through the motions of getting ready, going out the door, and getting to my destination, without thinking about it, just working on automatic pilot, only one step at a time, never consciously thinking beyond the next thirty seconds. Like you, there were times I didn't make it, but over time, and with effort, I was able to beat it more times than it was able to beat me.

Stick with it, Brett, you will come through in time.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Clean Supper
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 06:13 AM

The only thing I would add to all the above advice is that performing when depressed can be unpleasant because you are more likely than average to believe your performance wasn't very good. I find it's often helpful to sing with a group. An open singing seesion or a friendly choir could be nice. When I lived in Sydney, I was very lucky to be introduced to the Solidarity Choir, which has no auditions and is large and very welcoming. There I could sing in a room full of song and it was lovely. Similarly with rousing sessions, you can be immersed, and take part, in live music - the most therapeutic form to take it in, I firmly believe. Go well.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:36 AM

Hi Paul

Yes, we were very lucky to have you, too. I also find singing with the choir or in a session very therapeutic - if you can make yourself go out the door. I didn't quite make it tonight, so here I am on Mudcat, which also helps, just to be sharing thoughts with like-minded people.

I hope you are finding some nice people to sing with over there, until you work your way back to Oz

Jenny

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: mg
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 01:31 PM

One thing I have noticed is that people talk about repeated relationship breakups. I am of the opinion that we are not designed (or did not evolve if you prefer) to handle numerous problems of this sort...Certainly one broken heart when we are 15 and perhaps another later on and perhaps a loss through death...but multiple people walking out on us...I don't think most of us are capable of it. (I'm either very fortunate or very careful because I haven't had too much of that and I would far rather be a spinster than a revolving door). I think we need to rethink this whole "relationship" thing and, without imposing it on others, decide if we want serial relationships and serial broken hearts or the clear-cut distinction between marriage and perhaps nothing at all. (This is generic rambling and not related to the specific situation...I know this one was hopefully heading toward marriage). And screen really carefully to know that you and the other are on the same wavelength as this, and don't believe for a minute that a "relationship" will somehow grow into a marriage. It may and it may not. mg

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Richie
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM

There's nothing better than music to express your loss and feeling in a constructive way. Maybe you can write a song and by singing it- get the feeings out.

Some of my best songs were written out of despair!

-Richie

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Mudlark
Date: 01 Feb 03 - 09:30 PM

I would no more suggest that someone get a dog or cat to help with depression than I would suggest a couple have a child to solve marriage problems. Having said that, however, I have to agree with Kate...my 3 dogs are sometimes the only thing that get me out of bed in the morning. They need action, they need exercise, they need attention, which gets me in motion. And they give affection, sloppy wet kisses, and are always good for a smile or a laugh, which never fails to make me feel at least a little better, usually a LOT better.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: open mike
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 01:20 AM

Music can be a theraputic thing, because it can help you touch that
place in you that feels joy, and sadness and the whole gamut of emotions. But sometimes just going thru the motions of feeling
can bring you closer to that place even if you are numb or not
in touch with your feelingas right now due to obstacles. My
parents both died this year, and I know there is not a set
way to respond to things in your life that are intense like
that. I know I have been fighting back tears recently, even
though it has been months since they were gone. I am sure
that we humans are resilient creatures, but sometimes it seems
that there is more to adjust to that any one should have to
learn about. I am trying to cope with the loss of my parents
as well as going thru divorce and the fact that the youngest
child has left home too--sometimes overwhelmed with loss.
I found that i got a lot of help from reading Pema Chodron's
books: "When Things Fall Apart" (*Heartfelt Advice for Difficult
Times)and "The Places that Scare You" these writings are from
a Buddhist perspective, written by a woman who is a Buddhist
"nun" at an Abbey in Canada. This author was presented to me
as a place to find answers, by a friend who said that among her
circle of friends there is a well-worn copy of the "Fall Apart"
book, and it has helped many people thru times of crisis. I re-
member that when i felt like i was finding loss in every direction,
I tried to look at it as an opportunity to find a new path, make
new steps and re-discover options. I kept visualizing that the
heat i felt coming from all directions was not only removing layers
of past situations, but forging me into a stronger person--the
image that was most helpful to me was a phoenix rising from the
flames and ashes to fly into a new day!! Let yourself find an
image of hope like that and remind yourself of the up-lifting
feelings from it. Pema Chodron's books are published by Shambhala
(www.shambhala.com) and there are books on tape of her at Great Path Tapes and books...http://www.pemachodrontapes.org/
ONe of the most memorable images in the "Fall Apart" book is of a
monk approaching a temple when the temple guard dog comes lunging at
him. instead of running if fear he goes toward it, which surprises
the dog , and it does not hurt him. This is a message of not runnintg from your fears, face them head-on, and you will conquer them!

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 03:46 AM

yeah...and I haven't seen you on mudchat yet. Free advice from and for the lovelorn. mg

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Broadside Johnnie
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 04:25 AM

Breathe.

Cry.

Wail.

Sing... loudly.

Repeat as necessary.

Singing loudly is deep breathing. If you want some topical perspective that doesn't reflect your current circumstance, look to African-American spirituals and capstan shanteys - choruses rich with lingering oh's, ah's, and ay's that render physiologically therapeutic relief very similar to crying and wailing.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 04:54 AM

The road is long on which we travel
Through fields of desolation we walk now and then
But even deserts that seem to go on for ever
Bursts into colour when the sunshine follows rain


My shrink told me I would never 'cure' the depression til I learned to love myself

The rejection of your fiancee makes you self critical and develops feelings of unworthliness in all areas of life thus feeding the depression. write down what you feel in whatever way is best for you
song letter diary notes look at all your self criticisms and then look here again

You may feel yourself unworthy but everyone here feels you are a worthy human being each has taken the time to share their concern and love for you - there are a lot of messages here - that should tell you something

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: GUEST,DaveWy
Date: 02 Feb 03 - 05:39 PM

I went through a deep depression the suicidal kind. Switched off from everything. It had a strong anger base, caused by being devalued at work. Turned the anger into a positive to not let depression beat me. One of the major problems was the destruction of confidence and self esteem. Took to music to fight those by singing and playing guitar in public in local folk clubs.

The first song was one of the toughest personal challenges I had to face and I felt I was not particularly good with the nerves shot as they were.

However it has been a regular therapy since and has helped keep depression at bay.

Find your angle and fight back. Music for me was a positive therapy.

Dave

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Naemanson
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM

Hi,

I am very strapped for time here at work so I cannot answer as fully as I'd like. However, I am very grateful for the responses. For those of you who sent me a PM I will answer when I get some time.

One of the points made by several people is that they have been through this themselves. I know this is the case but when you are there it seems as though no one could understand. Your posts help me see that I am not alone in going through this. Others have been through it too.

Saturday was the third anniversary of when a previous life love and soul mate left me for another man. In my current condition I am susceptable to reviewing the past failures and letting them drag me down. The shuttle disaster did not help at all. I tried to enjoy some music in Portsmouth on Friday but was too down to stay long. I left early and went straight home. But Jeri gave me a hug and spoke words of comfort that helped me feel better.

Thanks my friends,

Brett

Subject: RE: Music and Depression
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Feb 03 - 10:05 AM

I read a little thing in a horoscope the other day that I rather liked:

Without irritating grains of sand, oysters would never make pearls.