BBC - Commitment to folk music??

Subject: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:38 PM

In light of the upcoming BBC folk awards (see other thread) I was wondering what others thought of the BBC's commitment to Folk Music - I personnally think it is completely crap! They give us one programme a week on radio two, show bits of the Cambridge Folk Festival, Local Radio does a bit a tiny bit and anything else is confined to the new digital chanels. Which,incidentally, a huge protion of the population can't access either because of technology requirements or there is no signal in their area.

What do you think!

BBC = Load of Cobblers!

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Deni-C
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:05 PM

Yep. It's near non-existent. The only time I hear folk music on the BBC is when it happens to be used as the sound track to a film or documentary, and that doesn't happen every day.

Cheers
Deni

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:23 PM

What about BBC Four?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: treewind
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM

What about Radio 3?

There's a fair amount of folk music on Late Junction though it tends to be rather world wide, and at other times of the day you sometimes get borderline stuff like 14th century troubadour music which is more folk than classical to my ears.

Anahata

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Ed.
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM

Persoally, I think that the BBC does a pretty good job.

OK, I've paid to get BBC4 on the tele, but there are also programs that others have mentioned above. Local radio can be good depending on where you live, and much is available online via webcasts.

Given that us folkies are a pretty small minority, I reckon we do quite well for £100 a year

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Inspector Morse
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

BBC 4 seems to have created a niche for itself- particularly on a Friday night. Since the beginning of the year, I've seen (repeats) of Cambridge, Martin Carthy, Christie Moore and a documentary on Nick Drake. Tonight I will mostly be taping a documentary on Richard Thompson. There are also two programmes devoted to Celtic Connections scheduled. Mainstream Radio 2 has a folk champion in Stuart Maconie -he usually includes at least one folk giant in his Critical List programme on Saturdays. And of course Johnny Walker provided our friend Ralphie with a significan chunk of programme. I make a point of emailing the Beeb every time they do something right with Folk - please do likewise to demonstrate to them that we are a market slice worth catering for.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:50 PM

BBC Four does a good job. BBC 2 has bits from Cambridge Folk Festival, and that occasionally includes stuff that deserves to be termed folk. And BBC Radio 4 and sometimes 3. And probably on some regional and local BBC channels and stations. All in all the BBC is not doing too bad a job, when you look at the altrnatives

For, apart from that there's virtually nothing, in England anyway. The commertcial channels, terrestrial, cable or satellite, couldn't be less interested. (And I only say virtually because nobody could watch or listen to all of them, obviously, and it's conceivable something might have slipped through. But I doubt it. Leaving aside some local radio, and not much of that so far as I can see.)

Still, folk isn't about being a couch potato, it's about getting out and doing it live and hearing it live. Until The Day the Music Dies, which is what Kim Howells is working towards right now.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:03 PM

It is a helluva lot better, and more, than anything on US networks, satellite, cable, combined.

As far as I can tell, Britain has the best coverage of folk music among mass media, in the entire world.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:39 PM

Then the entire world coverage is shite!

as for BBC4 well yes they are putting some programmes on but they are only available if you have the technology (at £100 a go plus the licence fee) and even then you are not guanteed to be able to recieve it as it is not available accross the whole country. I couldn't give a stuff about the commercial channels I don't pay for them (directly).

I thought this would be provocative ho di hum

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:55 PM

BBCs attitude to folk and traditional music is total crap. Our traditional music and song is brilliant, it should not be tucked away
on a channel that most of us don't recieve, it should be celebrated
as our national heritage, on mainstream TV and radio.
Why in England do we celebrate St. Patricks Day and not St. Georges Day, it is all down to the media telling us what to watch and liusten to.
When will they catch on in England, our traditional music is GREAT,
let us celebrate and enjoy it.
Angry, Dave

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:26 PM

Listen, every country's traditional music is brilliant, and "deserving" but that doesn't mean it gets coverage in mainstream media.

How realistic is it, really, to think that mainstream media owes such a small niche listenership as folk/trad a large chunk of air time? Face it people, most people DON'T WANT TO HEAR THIS MUSIC! So it is up to those of us who love it, to find it elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:43 PM

The fact that most people don't want to hear this kind of music is not the point. The BBC's charter is about educating and entertaining. So why not educate the masses?

And if you think that the masses don't want to hear this kind of music tell me why are Irish theme pubs so popular in england with all of that piped diddly diddly music going on?

The rouble is that by and large the english are ashamed of their cultural heritage - they ridicle the morris dance basically because they don't understand it ...that is where he BBC should come in.

I also wonder just how unpopular it actually is and if more people heard it would it be more popular? - an example would be the Corrs just look how popular they were a couple of years ago, not to mention Bewitched and any of the out of Ireland pop bands that have a hint of the tradition about their music.

Don't think that because a mnority attend festivals etc that it is an unpoopular genre. I think we'd all be suprised if it had more air time.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:45 PM

Oops the alcohol has hit my typo fingers.

An additional thought occurred I wonder if it is so unpopular why one of the most popular ways of raising funds for schools etc is the Barn Dance? Just a thought

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:55 PM

The problem is a complex one, with historical and socio-political roots going back at least to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. There isn't much point in blaming the BBC for the mixture of embarrassment and contempt with which a great many English people view their own traditional culture (when they are even aware of its existence), although they will latch onto whoever else's tradition is currently fashionable perfectly happily.

It could fairly be said that the BBC ought to be putting more resources into redressing that balance; but we have to recognise that they are increasingly obliged to go for high audience figures, often at the expense of minority interests, as more and more strings are attached to their funding.

There are also political considerations. Regrettably, there are a good many people in positions of power in the Arts generally who belong to the old, élitist school which considers working class culture to be without value and folk music to be long-dead; except perhaps in the American-style "singer-songwriter" sense. There are also those who are simultaneously fashion-victims and "over-correct"; they will support enthusiastically anything they perceive as "ethnic", but will panic at the mere mention of the word "English", in case there might be something racist about mere use of the word.

Given the circumstances, the BBC is actually doing a pretty good job. That needn't stop us moaning about Mike Harding's tendency to concentrate on the bland and commercial, or the inevitable cheap shots from low-grade comedians and media "personalities" who have both a lack of imagination and an over-inflated impression of their own cleverness, and for whom Morris dancers or folk singers are easy targets.

Attitudes need to be changed, that's for sure. In recent months, though, I've begun to feel quite encouraged by the frequency with which folk music and musicians pop up in relatively mainstream programmes like "Woman's Hour". They (and we) need to be seen as a perfectly normal part of everyday life, not something weird and marginal. Perhaps we're actually making a start there.

Meanwhile, the coverage on BBC4, though very much relegated to the minority channel, is at least there. We need to be registering our approval and encouragement at every opportunity (the first broadcast of the Carthy programmes generated more feedback than anything shown on BBC4 since it started transmitting) and at the same time making the point that such material ought to be made available to all license-payers. We may never be perceived by decision-makers as anything but a small minority, but we do at least need to make sure that we are a vocal minority. That's the first step toward becoming (from their point of view) an important minority; one that gets listened to, and catered for. The Jazzers managed it; so can we.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:01 PM

My point precisely. English folk music isn't exactly the only minority music genre on the planet, particularly in Britain.

As to the Irish stuff, well...look at the numbers of Irish people living in Britain. They are the largest minority population, hence their ability to get airplay. They've worked for it. As the Jazzers have. So get to work.

But really, in terms of the numbers, English folk will always be a hard sell. There are many more Irish immigrant fans of Irish trad and folk than there are indigenous English fans of English trad and folk. See what I mean? Like it or not, air play is about those kinds of numbers, not the high and might "heritage factor".

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Micca
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:19 PM

Well. smallpiper on the point of "The fact that most people don't want to hear this kind of music" a recent report on folk Festivals(Funded by the Arts Council) states that
" UK folk festivals generate spending of over £77 million each year. There are now over 350 folk festivals in the UK. Between them they attract over 350,000 attendances from 106,000 people, each of whom attends an average of 3.3 folk festivals per year."
This of course may raise other problems as Dr Howells PEL crap will affect the fringe and pub based events and sessions etc that happen around and as an Integral part of most Festivals.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM

What that tells me is you have the same people attending the same events over and over. What that tells me is that there isn't really much growth on the festival front, and that the festival promoters possibly aren't doing such a crack job of bringing in new audiences.

That is what the statistics cited above tell me.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:26 PM

I see little comitment from the BBC to ANYTHING other than repeating random episodes of Only Fools and Horses, which, although it was very funny when first shown, has been done to death by the way it has been re-broadcast in a random fashion ad-nauseum.
I remember the 1970s when we had programmes on BBC2 such as Get the Drift, with Alex Glasgow and Henry Livings (poems, recitiations and Alex's songs), and also Poems and Pints, with actors including Philip Madoc performing potery whilst sat around a bar.
Whilst not actually Folk Music - they were indicative of a commitment to some form of popular culture.
We also used to have a regular spot for innovative plays and drama, others for Science-Fiction and the wierd. Panel games and quizzes for the intelligent and those who aspired to it. ALL of these have been sacrificed and replaced by banal soap operas and gory Cop/Hospital/Murder episodes. Childrens programming is even worse.
Am I a Fuddy-Duddy?
NO am I Bollox! I just remember QUALITY programming, which seems to be something the Powers That Be at the BBC have forgotten.
QUACK!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:28 PM

It's not just English folk music that gets generally shuffled off into largely inaccessible corners. (Notably BBC 4 TV, which is fairly good with other folk traditions as well.)

I think we should avoid getting trapped into those kind of disputes between the excluded. That distracts attention from the real enemy, which is an instinctive antagonism against folk music as such.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Micca
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:30 PM

Elsewhere in the report it states that "
In any one year, 6% of all festival
attenders are new to folk. Almost all of
these return to future festivals, so
effectively, the folk festival market is
growing by 6% year-on-year.
A further 18% of attenders are trying a
particular festival for the first time.
and
76% of attenders are already repeat
visitors, with a huge 70% of those
attending most years and 44%
attending every year.
Once you attract a new visitor through a
festival, most will keep on coming back
for many years.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:38 PM

6% growth is grand. But what is the ratio to those lost? You haven't mentioned them at all. Presumably some folk fans do die, get lost in other things in life, or move on to another music genre or hobby in Britain?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:47 PM

The other thing people do is go to other festivals. Just because you don't go back to Cambridge doesn't mean you haven't moved on to Sidmouth, for example.

The number of people out there who are basically friednly towards folk music is much greater than the number who take part in festivals and clubs and so forth. As was pointed out, when schools want fundraisers, barn dances are a sure thing, and most of the people enjoying themseleves there wouldn't see themselves as folkies.

But once again, it's basically a music for participating in, not getting via the box.

Could someone put up a link to that report Micca quoted? It could be useful.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Micca
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:02 PM

Sorry Kevin, I shoulda done that but I couldnt find the message with the link, any way Here it is Its a PDF file I'm afraid so needs Acrobat

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:12 PM

Great discussion! The proofreader can't resist offering some advice:"comMitment"

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: JudeL
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 04:50 AM

I don't think any of us are disputing that the BBC are not broadcasting as much folk as we would want but if you try the BBC website you may find that it is doing a little more than you thought. I find quite useful it's archive of recordings of radio programs so that even when I miss something first time round often I can hear the bit I wanted at my own convenience.

Writing letters and emails may take time and effort but the more we do it, the more likely we are to provoke a reaction. It's unlikely that we'll see immediate results but each time they recieve something either praising a particular program or requesting something in the folk genre it helps to tip the balance when program choices are being considered. If you can take the time and make the effort to complain on this forum that the BBC isn't doing enough then perhaps you could take the time to tell the BBC themselves. I know one email or letter isn't much but if we all do it, maybe, just maybe it may make a difference.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 07:09 AM

6% growth rate is prety good but 10% would be better.

Lets see what have we got .. some who think the BBC are doing a pretty good job and others that think they could do more mmmmmm.

Well my opinion hasn't changed I'm with the they could and should do more brigade. In economic terms its a market ripe for openning up and they should prove their comMitment to indigionous culture as well as those of minority groups (being an Irish man mesel).

As for folk music being something that is best enjoyed by taking part of course it is but if you don't know it exists or where to find it (or even if you'll actually like it) how can you take part?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM

I don't buy your arguments smallpiper. First, I don't think you can readily prove to the BBC that there is an English folk music audience "ripe for opening up". Second, I deplore the argument that English folk music is more deserving than other communities' folk music because it is "indigenous". There is already enough ghettoization of folk and traditional music by the "world" music afficionados on the BBC. White English men being given "world" music programs, playing cds by the Sidi Sufis of Gujarat, isn't exactly opening up the BBC to minority representation.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:47 AM

Guest, I am not arguing that English Folk music is more deserving, mearly pointing out that the English are ashamed of their heritage and the BBC contribute to that. Nor am I claiming that any other music is more deserving.

I don't think that anyone can disprove that there is an audience out there unless they try it and see. If there isn't then fair enough but unless an attempt is made then who will know?

Who the BBC employ to present their programmes is down to them and if they have a decent equal opportunities recruitment programme then why is it "White English Men" as you put it, that present these programmes? But isn't that a different issue?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 10:54 AM

smallpiper, I also disagree that the English are ashamed of themselves and their heritage. I know a lot of English people who are quite proud of their people's notable and/or extraordinary human accomplishments. Most of them simply don't consider English folk music to be one of those accomplishments. Or the "traditions" of the English monarchy, either.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:02 AM

You are entitled to that belief but I ask you how many times do you see Morris dancing ridiculled? ( how many times have I taken the pee for that matter - but then I'm not English).

As has been pointed out recently many of the "traditions" of the English monarchy are in fact very recent inventions.

I still argue that people don't think much of English traditional music out of ignorance of that music. A lot of people of my generation were put off folk music at primary school and I know a lot of people who cringe still when certain songs are sung.

At great personal risk I'm going to ask what notable or extraordinary human accomplishments are you talking about Guest?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:05 AM

the English are ashamed of their heritage and the BBC contribute to that

Could you explain how?

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:16 AM

A lot of English traditions are considered to be jokes, the BBC contribute to that by not treating traditions seriously . How many times have you heard jokes about (I keep on about this I know but its a pretty good example) Morris? If it was the tradition of a different ethnic minority (I consider the English to be an ethnic minority along with everyone else who make up the poulation of England) the bugers would be had up for racism.

I am sure that I am not alone in thinking this. (or am I?)

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:19 AM

Well, there is Sir Isaac Newton. There is medical herbalism, and English herbalists like Culpepper. There is Chaucer. There is Mary Wollenstonecraft's "A Vindication of the Rights of Men". There is Edward Elgar. There is John Taverner. There is the beautiful English polyphonic music traditions of the late 15th and early 16th centuries--sacred music of Masses, Magnificats, and votive antiphons.

I could go on and on, but I think you catch my drift.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:02 PM

How many times have you heard jokes about ... Morris?

Numerous times 20 years ago when the Morris/Incest joke was doing the rounds, but never recently and never on the BBC. Can you give any substantive examples?

I consider the English to be an ethnic minority... [as part of] ...the population of England

That's a very strange thing to say, can you please define what you mean by 'English'

I'm finding it difficult to understand your point here, smallpiper. Please elucidate.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:04 PM

Ed your just being daft read the rest of the thread

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 01:11 PM

I have read the thread, I was responding to smallpipers last message.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 02:40 PM

Here's a letter from today's Guardian (and a very good letter mostly) thatdemonstrates the way in which people who are strong exponents of the people making our own music seem to feel a need to slag off Morris Dancing and such, almost as a protective gesture, in case they get sneered at themselves:

No idea what my wife has sent to you, but can I take the opportunity to add my own favourite Half Man Half Biscuit lyric: When I had my loft converted back into a loft, the neighbours came around and scoffed and called me retro.

I've organised about five gigs for them, but now New Labour has managed to come up with yet another piece of legislation which even the most rightwing Tory would be proud of. They want all live music to be subject to a licence - a direct attack on dissident grassroots culture and confirmation that in the ideal New Labour world everyone is a TV-gawking passive consumer vegetable devoid of an original or independent thought.

Widescreen TV transmissions in pubs to hundreds won't be affected though, 'cos that would upset New Labour's friend, Rupert. Unbelievable! I can only make an appropriate response:

OFF LICENCE!
(for Kim Howells)
Rupert Murdoch, that's your "culture"
Tellytubby corporate state
Widescreen god won't need a licence -
He got you elected, mate!
Thousand Morris dancers whining
With petitions so polite
Some of us aren't whingeing folkies
And you've got yourself a fight!
Sky TV New Labour Tory
Mainstream dullard business bores
So come on, arrest Attila -
Cos I'll flout your stupid laws!
Poems and songs don't need a licence.
Never have and never will.
I'm here in your face, Kim Howells -
Tearing up your licence bill!

Attila the Stockbroker
Southwick, W Sussex

Squabbling among ourselves is silly. The point is, all musicmaking that people do for themselves without being part of the industry, is under attack. If we pick off each other it just makes it easier to ignore is, and in fact to repress us.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 03:27 PM

McGrath, this isn't a fucking PEL thread. How about you keep PEL to the PEL threads, and stop trying to hijack anything to do with music in Britain entirely. The subject of this thread is the folk music and the BBC, not the performance of folk music in pubs.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 06:11 PM

"So why not educate the masses?"

Or entertain them with English folk music "for their own good".

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:42 PM

Ed it is far from my limitted ability to define what is English. I also believe that it is far from anyone's ability to do so. That in my opinion makes them a minority because no one knows who they are. However, there are certain aspects of culture within this country that are peculiar to this country perhaps they are English, they have been claimed to be and perhaps would help the English to define themselves. The BBC could contribute to this - without being jingoistic or overly nationalist (ah perhaps that is what they are afraid of - being accused of being nationalist etc)and by promoting ALL folk music may actually help efine what is English and hat is British and in so doing help unite theis multi cultural nation - Amen!

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 08:50 PM

Oh dear I see the hull spelling is creeping in, that should have read "define what is English and what is British and in doing so help unite this multi-cultural nation"

I also think the point raised by McGrath is pertinenet because if the PEL legislation gets passed then there will be no Folk music in pubs for us to take part in and the BBC will have an even bigger excuse not to air folk music.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: Frankham
Date: 08 Feb 03 - 11:37 PM

I understand that the BBC did an interview with Tommy Makem's mother, Sara Makem. Tommy, a great performer is better known in folk circles than his mother but they were more interested in her. She was the source.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Loqui
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 12:27 AM

I got a bit confused reading some posts but perhaps a separate BBC England channel is what is needed. BBC Scotland do a pretty good job of covering folk music, with a bias towards Scottish and celtic in particular.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 09:00 AM

English versus Scottish versus Irish versus American versus World Music - those just aren't distinctions that matter in this context.

And so far as I'm concerned my tastes straddle all those and more.

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Dave Forshaw
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 09:07 AM

Totaly Agree, load of dross, I would love to see a travelling folk show, visiting different clubs around Britain, with a coupla international trips, too. Love to see Vin Garbutt take the show on the road, for a start, should be better than Billy Conelly posturing in a purple beard and bike leathers!

Subject: RE: BBC - Comitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Feb 03 - 10:25 AM

Good idea - you gonna suggest it to the Beeb?

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Jane Bird
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM

Much as I would like to hear more folk and roots music on the BBC, I have the impression that the situtation is better than it was 10 years ago, on the whole. Here's the perspective from someone in England.

In the early 90s I could tune into:
Radio 2 - Folk on Two (Jim Lloyd); various half hour special series (such as Barn Dance, Mandy Prior on acapella singing; Young Tradition Awards
Local - Folk programmes on BBC Radio Cambridgeshire, Essex and Suffolk
Radio 1 - Andy Kershaw and some programming from John Peel
World Service - Ian Anderson
Only very occasional things on TV
Radio 4 - Occasional features from Woman's Hour
Radio 3 - various series on ethnomusicology, but not very high profile

Now:
Radio 2 - Mike Harding has replaced Jim Lloyd; fewer specialist series; but the Folk Awards and Young Tradition Awards are doing well
Local - local BBC radio has all but stoped broadcasting folk (Cambs and Essex certainly don't), which I think is a great shame for music on a local level
Radio 1 - just bits and pieces on Peel now
Radio 3 - Kershaw's moved there, where World Routes, Late Junction are also flying a flag for folk musics from all over the world; World Music Awards
Radio 4 - Woman's Hour still interviewing people like Kate Rusby, Eliza Carthy and Linda Thompson
Digital Radio - Asian Network broadcasting some material
TV - occasional coverage on BBCs 1 & 2, but a lot more on BBC 4 (which is unfortunately available to a small minority at the moment)
Internet - for those who have access to streamed audio on the Net (more than have access to Digital TV) there's relatively easy access to the programmes mentioned above, and the ones in Scotland, Wales &


I feel that there's a marked improvement in England, but there's still a long way to go, especially when compared with coverage on BBC Scotland!

Jane

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Trevor
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM

Agree generally, but we're lucky in this neck with Radio Shropshire broadcasting a great show on a Sunday with Genevieve Tudor, Allan Price and Amy Douglas (networked across the West Midlands I think - is that right Watson?), Radio Maldwyn's two hour show on a Monday with John and Yvonne Hart (although that's not the Beeb) and there's some stuff on Radio Hereford & Worcester I think, with Nonnie James.

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:28 AM

BBC Radio Scotland does have much more going on in terms of traditional and folk music than the rest of BBC radio combined. And I do have to suppress a wry smile whenever I read that Radio 2 is the home of folk music (1 hour per week).

While we're on the subject - look out (for those of you with Digital DELDMARTINTEST) for BBC 4 - I think it's the next 2 Fridays - they'll be featuring bits from this year's Celtic Connections in Glasgow...

I think there'll be a selection from EddiReader, Skyedance, Michael McGoldrick, John McCusker, probably Altan, maybe some Didier Squiban and some other stuff.. Check the listings...

Cheers

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: JudeL
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:54 AM

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Feb 03 - 12:17 PM

Bugger can't get BBC 4 where I live!

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 11 Feb 03 - 08:03 PM

Sorry about the DELDMARTINTEST spasm in my post above - I must have pasted when I wasn't looking...


Cheers

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Ralphie
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 05:03 AM

Jane B..Hello
I was going to stay out of this thread, but, congrats on summing up the "Then and now" of the BBC.
I would say that the situation is vastly improved at one level, although I too, mourn the lost of the Radio Theatre In Concert series.
And the fact that Broadcasting House is a building site for the next 5 years doesn't help!!
There are many, many producers and presenters in Radio who are sympathetic to what I'll loosely call the tradition. The problem is finding a hook to hang it on when putting programme ideas to their relative Network Controllers, who, not unsurprisingly, have one eye on the ratings.
The success of Late Junction, Andy Kershaw, and the two F on 2 award ceremonies, prove that the Music IS taken seriously.
I don't work in TV, but the programmes on BBC4 are a giant leap in intelligent programming. Yes, Very frustrating for those who can't get it yet, maybe the Beeb should have thought about the Transmitter infrastructure first, but, in their defence, they had the chance with Freeview, to pick up the failed On Digital system, and had to run with it, as it stood. otherwise Mr Murdoch might have jumped in.
Digi TV will happen, It's got to. when the Analogue Transmitters are switched off in 10 years or so..we'll all be there.
I am therefore cautiously optimistic about the future...Hang it all..I'm doing my bit!
Regards to all
Ralphie

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Watson
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM

Belated reply to Trevor...
Yes, quite right - every Sunday night, 8:00 - 10:00 on BBC Shropshire, Stoke, Hereford and Worcester with the names you mentioned.
It was available on line for a while, but they were told to stop until there was a proper agreement in place for MCPS / PRS.
I don't know if it can be heard in Squilver although there are a couple of new transmitters in South Shropshire.
I bet they'd even play Rapsquillion if there was a CD, or perhaps they'd turn up and play live one week?

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Mavis Riley
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM

1 Have to agree with smallpiper's comments on general ridicule of Morris at the expense of other forms of ethnic dance. All equally valuable cultural expressions but not given equal weight in the media. How many times have so-called "multi-cultural" events not included England's indigenous culture? How's that for building inter-community understanding? Is there some perverse PC-reverse discrimination going on? Its wider than just the BBC but I suspect BBC are reflecting this wider context.

2 I recall an episode of Excess Baggage on BBC Radio 4 reporting from Cambridge Festival last year. Reporter dismissed English music on offer with a comment like: "its all to do with naff morris dancing isn't it? Not worth seeing what that's about then - we know what it will be like."

3 Would refer to current and recent unrelated threads concerning quality of performance. The "its alright its only fok music" attitude of complacency must transmit a lack of professionalism, preparedness etc to any audience (new to the genre or steeped in it). How many times have I heard people say they can't stand folk music when their experience has been one I would be disappointed by - but I know there are better experiences out there.

Mavis

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Ralphie (Not at Home)
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 09:21 AM

Mavis.
Couldn't agree with you more re Morris dancing.
The problem with peoples attitudes to the music.."It's alright, It's only Folk Music!" is also part of the musics charm and accessibility.
I started playing 30 years ago, because I was allowed to, indeed welcomed by the clubs that I attended then.
In essence, Folk Music is for everyone, good or bad...and therein lies its problem.
But, do we really want the super slick polished performances all the time? All well and good, and I'm as big a fan of your Carthys, Gaughans...etc, etc as the next man.
I also love hearing unpolished, amateur performers as well.
The Media would never know how to deal with those performers...
Mmmm...must go away now and think about it a bit more!
Yes we want more...but...Do we really??
Regards Ralphie (Sound of worm tin opening!)

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: smallpiper
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 10:46 AM

Put the lid back on ralphie!

The highly polished performers would provide an "in" to folk music. get people interested then they will want to find out more and perhaps have a go themselves. Isn't that what happens with yer popular music and even classical?

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Trevor
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:04 AM

Hello Watson - Yep, we get you up at Squilver. If that was an invite, thanks, we'd love to come on the show. I've p-mailed you.

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Mavis Riley
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:39 AM

Ralphie (not at home)

Of course amateur performance and accessibility is part of its charm (who would want a professional morris team and wouldn't that destroy the meaning somewhat anyway? - but there are professional folk dance groups in other parts of Europe - I digress) and this is great fun and welcoming and even meaningful in the appropriate context eg sessions, singarounds, informal clubs and so on - but I suggest only if you are "on the inside". How much more fun are amateur mummers than classically trained "actoors". We, on the inside, don't want the polished and slick all the time because we are already hooked on the inclusive atmosphere of these intimate gatherings. But "it'll do, its only folk music" won't necessarily attract the sceptical, it will reinforce their prejudices.

I think we may have the opposite of a virtuous cycle (circle?) here. Not enough of the best is placed in the broader public domain. This serves the myth that there isn't much of "the best" out there and all the rest is mediocre if not worse. If booked at all, it is the mediocre who are booked for events involving the wider public (beer festivals for example) because the organisers expect nothing better than mediocre, possibly also because the mediocre is cheaper than the best - how much? you must be joking, its only folk music! (another thread emerging?). This confirms the non-folkie public collective consciousness in its belief that all folk is mediocre and round and down the circle goes.

Mavis

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: GUEST,Mavis Riley
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

Look at it another way. Would the sceptics be attracted to folk music and dance by a public performance (by this I mean in a general, non-specifically folkie context - back to the beer festival example) of the session with the unrhythmical egg shakers, five bodhrans never practiced elsewhere, music books and words on music stands and it'll do for folk approach? I suggest not!

Mavis

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Lady Nancy
Date: 12 Feb 03 - 01:37 PM

There appears to be NO committment to English folk music, and any of us who wish to be so committed are to be soon legislated against performing the same in pubs, clubs etc even at the loss of the "2 in a bar" rule! This applies equally to Wales who, in this instance, share the proposed legislation with England. Scotland, thankfully, is exempt..... I hope their Assembly does not consider following suit.

There was, however, a petition which could be signed by anyone who - like me - is concerned about this issue. Just for the record, the extent to which this might affect ME is that I could effectively be banned from holding ceilidhs in my own home unless I apply for a licence! Whether or not money changes hands, etc. etc. Farcical!!!!

The petition was at www.petitionline.com/2inabar, but it seems to have vanished!

The alternative? phone or write to your MP...

This could REALLY change the way we enjoy our live, traditional music whether it is English, America, Irish or from wherever!

This information was on the front page of my local (weekly) newspaper last Friday, and the issue is due to be debated in the Commons in March. If passed, the Licensing Bill could "outlaw" ALL live music!!!

Perish the thought...!

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 08:27 AM

Thank you for bringing this to our attention your ladyship! I suggest that we immediately start hundreds of threads (perhaps with PEL as a prefix to denote content) including links to the petition, regular updates on the number of signatures, and details on how to fax our MP's to protest. We could organize demonstrations aginst the Bill outside the Houses of Parliament. We could give details of sessions and festivals that have been affected by the PEL. We can mobilise singers, musicians and dancers throughout the country. This could be great! Come on chaps let's get cracking. TOGETHER WE CAN BEAT THIS BILL!

BJ

Subject: RE: BBC - Commitment to folk music??
From: Ralphie
Date: 18 Feb 03 - 12:29 PM

Smallp...
Lid firmly back on..I assure you!
Mavis...Yes...It's a bugger isn't it.
Nevertheless, I'll continue to plough my own furrow (although having lived in London all my life, it's hard work!)
How to reconcile the grass routes performances with the "more polished" professional shows is an enigma wrapped in a quandary (Is that the right quote?!)..
Ho Hum lets just all do what we can.
I'm off to the South Coast for an "Illegal" session next weekend...Can't wait!
Regards Ralphie
PS. Us an egg shaker with five left feet, I take great exception to your remarks !