BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 03:34 PM

BTW...here is the official English language site for the Tour, in case it helps anyone sort it all out.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 11:23 PM

Caught most stages up thru Friday, on OLN; now I'm at my sister's, OLN-less. Thank God for Cycling News' live updates (text) and OLN's audio feed-- tho the puder here is so slow, and the ISP so bad, I can't get more than five seconds at a time! But oy, what a day!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 07:22 AM

from an interview (my translation):

Mr. Armstrong, did you expect Jan Ullrich to wait for you after your fall?

I knew they would (wait). I did the same for Jan in 2001....What you give mostly comes back one time.

(now my text, not the interview) With very few exceptions (notable: the Pantani-Armstrong hate), the top cyclists have a lot of respect for each other. In addition to that, they know they'll be made to suffer if they do what the others consider wrong. Next time they want to have a pee and stop there'll be an attack or some other nastiness of that kind.

Have you seen the tiny geste of Armstrong when overtaking Chavanel who had led for most of the stage to pat him on the back? That meant: "Sorry, guy, I know that should have been your stage, but when I want to win I have to overtake you now."

To know how someone else feels (Chavanel is young and that would have been his first major victory) and to show them you know that is class.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:19 PM

Cycling is a totally commercial venture, so it is wonderful to see the sportsmanship that occurs, despite that. Also, Armstrong has worked hard over a long period of time to overcome anti-American feelings in France, as far as people's perceptions about him.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:57 PM

Until a sport is truly international, embracing all colours and classes, I feel it has not truly established itself. Tour cycling falls into that category. I love the Tour de France BUT I'm convinced that if the Kenyans ever took up cycling, that would be the end for white cyclist! Well at least for serious contenders for the overall crown.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 09:44 PM

I did see that gesture, Wolfgang. Chavanel rode a good stage, and had not Lance needed those bonus seconds, Chavanel would probably have been allowed to win. It is good to see these small bits of honor in such a competitive sport.

I see that Armstrong is also gaining points and supporters in France for giving interviews IN FRENCH!...this is no small thing in France, as few Americans take the trouble to learn the language.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 04:34 AM

geste/gesture: It is funny how my word memory for English words is blocked when I write about Le Tour. I seem to need a completely separated part of my brain.

Armstrong is much more liked by the French (press and spectators) this year. His ability to give interviews in French has done a bit. But the main reason, I think, is that he is no longer 'intouchable' (please pronounce it in French for that's how I have it written). They never really like the cyclists who look as if cycling meant no effort at all. He looks vulnerable and beatable this year and that's why they like him more even if he may not be beaten, actually.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 23 Jul 03 - 12:27 PM

From my memory, Lance did interviews in french the first year he won, but didn't have a great command of the language and got misquoted sometimes. The next year, he did them in English and never got misquoted, but the fans weren't happy. The third year, he interviewed in both languages. At least this is what I remember.
On another note, congradulations to Tyler Hamilton! Despite his injury, he has stuck to it and won his first Tour de France stage today. The story is here!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 04:29 PM

I still stand by my prediction 'Armstrong Ullrich Vino' made on 16 Jul 03 - 03:01 PM.

Armstrong had a physical low a bit more than one week ago at the last contre-la-montre. He is in better shape now. I can see Ullrich winning that stage on Saturday, but only by a too small margin.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: billy bob
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 05:37 PM

2 years ago i took part in the 'rondelee'
which is the 2000 cycleists who cycle round the paris cource befor the main event
so.....
wait for it!!!!
i took part in the tour de france!!
and have a king of the mountain shirt to prouve it!!!!!!!!!
manic laughter dieing out in back ground!!!!
oh by the way
think launce will be the fifth person to win it
spookie eh? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 07:42 PM

Well, I'm officially backing off and disclaiming my prediction on Heras now. I still hold on to hope for the tour of Spain, but I wonder if Rubiera might not be a better bet for USPS this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 03 - 11:16 PM

I guess it will just all come down to whether Ullrich can do another totally dominating time trial..(Armstrong says "I have never YET lost a final time trial".)...I'll be watching to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 07:50 AM

Just a couple of minutes ago there was an extremely rare view: Both Armstrong and Ullrich sprinting (which for both is not what they are famous for) for time bonifications at an intermediate sprint. That means they both think it could be a very close decision.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Armen Tanzerian
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 10:40 AM

Wolfgang, mon vieux. Le mot "bonification" n'existe pas en anglais. C'est plutot "betterment". Bien que tu t'appelles Wolfgang, apparement tu as un cerveau français. Tu es alsacien, peut-être?


Armen, Paris 17ème

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 11:14 AM

'bonifications'= 'bonuses'?

English do shorely be a funny langwidge sumtimes....

I forget sometimes that Wolfgang and Masato and Escamillo and others are not native speakers, as they VERY seldom use a term incorrectly. I wish I had kept learing German past my college days.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jul 03 - 04:48 PM

Non, Armen, je suis Allemand. Mais quand je parle du Tour, je pense en Francais.
I even prefer to look at the French language internet site of Le Tour. And that's why words like equipier, bonification, echappes, contre-la-montre are predominantly in my mind.

I was completely sure there was an English word 'bonification'. I even could pronounce it without difficulties. Take a French word and pronounce it the English way is quite a good heuristic. It often works, but not always.

Bill, but you should hear me. I often envy Susanne who even can fool English speaking persons to think she is a native speaker for a couple of sentences. I couldn't with any sentence longer than 'yes'.

Bonification is time bonus. Ullrich today took 2 s off of Armstrong's advantage.

Just in case someone wonders what happens if both have identical overall time when in Paris. Then the winner is the one with more points in the points 'classement' used for determining who gets the green jersey. At the moment, that would be Ullrich.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 10:56 AM

Chapeau, Lance

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 12:56 PM

So odd that Mr. Impetuosity now benefits from being the calm old man of the bike. I see strength and youthful hunger for the next Tour (or 2005)-- the fight between Ullrich and Mayo, plus Hamilton's amazing dedication making it all entirely unpredictable.

Do you think Lance should (will) go for 6 straight? Did he make a deal with Kristen to hang it up after this one?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Dick Shay
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 02:05 PM

I think Armstrong was very happy to eat his words about never losing the final time trial. With todays atrocious riding/racing conditions I'm sure he was elated with his third place finish and overall lead in the Tour. All he has to do now is stay on the bike all the way to the finish line in Paris tomorrow and he will have secured his place in history. Pity it will be lost on the majority of Americans. Also, kudos to Tyler Hamilton for his fourth place finish after todays time trial. He will also be hailed as a hero in this year's Tour. Who else would ride three weeks with a broken collar bone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jul 03 - 10:47 PM

Why is it some dumbass is always saying that "Americans will not appreciate" some victory or record or great athlete in a sport that may not be number 1 here? A lot of Americans know of the accomplishments of Armstrong and do appreciate his tremendous record in cycling....not to mention his victory over testicular cancer.

The US simply has a ton of sports and it diffuses the applause for any single one. And who the hell says we have to do it to begin with? Because cycling or Soccer or something else is important elsewhere, it doesn't have to be important here. That's fuckin' ignorant. It's like me saying that Chinese have no appreciation of basketball after sending some great talent to the NBA....or saying that the UK needs to be more involved in baseball. So Guest Dick Shay.....take that line of shit and shove it up your ass. That's an international sport BTW

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:10 AM

A bit the other way around, isn't it, Spaw - a lot of Americans might not have heard of the Tour de France if it wasn't won by an American.

The sprint jersey was won by an Aussie. Pity we can't climb very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Jeger
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:41 AM

What is this "lost on the majority of Americans" bit? I have followed this more than almost any sports event in recent times. I think Armstrong is awesome. The battle he had against cancer is a back drop which makes it all the greater.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:00 AM

Hey!!! Didn't OLN preempt both fly fishing and beach volleyball so they could have 12+ hours of Tour coverage every day? Beach Volleyball is important to the average American couch potato!

BTW, Jenn and I took part in a fund-raising bike ride on one of the middle weekends of the Tour, for the Lance Armstrong Foundation for cancer survivors (link here). A worthy cause, and a worthy effort by a great athlete.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:52 AM

OLN preempted because available sponsorbucks were pretty huge for Le Tour! Le Lance Hot, and all that Jazz.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:00 AM

Susan!! True, but the advertising wouldn't have been there if there was no interest in watching it. Even OLN doesn't spend much time on curling or rugby.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:49 AM

Now that the Tour de France is finished I'm ready to discuss (sport) politics.

Tunesmith, you may be right but who cares? The winner only can be the best of those who have competed. Perhaps, if a small French boy would not have died in an accident 24 years ago, Lance might not have won...As I said who cares. With you definition of international no single sport can be termed international for there are always differences in local interest who shape the interests of the young boys and girls which sport to choose or not.

Greg, the idea was not to replace the word 'France' by 'freedom' but the word 'French'. That's why your example doesn't fit. But I agree that the replacement is completely silly and pointless.

Ard, with extremely few exemptions all world class accomplishments in whatever sport are not healthy anymore. Way back in the old times, Tour de France cyclists have taken arsenic in unhealthy doses and all that. I doubt that for instance GAA sports are completely clean in that respect.

Same as I admire for instance circus artists and forget for the moment of admiration how awful and unhealthy the training might be I admire the cyclists and forget about the other aspects as long as they compete. But I am for controls for I do not want someone to win only by superior methods of cheating.

From what I know, the coutries which did (and do) use cheating by doping on a fairly general level these were (and are) predominantly countries from the so called socialist world. We now know fairly well how such a small country as the GDR did excell in Olympic sports. And the pattern of records and sudden breakdowns of Chinese athletes speaks volumes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:56 AM

Yes.... but part of the deal is that Lance was also being featured in commercials on other channels. Kind of a cross-marketing thing. I think the sponsors saw a marketing opportunity because of the coinkydink between the Tour Centenary and the Fifth-Win effort.
It doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of people understand a thing about professional cycling, or follow it. I don't expect there'll be much of a ripple in the media pond over La Vuelta, por ejemplo. No Lance, no marketing hook. (BTW don't you love the superior French scenery and camera work????? We rank Le Tour 1st, then the Giro, the La Vuelta as far as watchability.) )

Hardi and I are blue in the face from all the explaining we've been doing about the hows and whys of cycling-- individual and team goals and tactics, where the money comes from and goes, and so on..... it's not at all like the Olympics and people keep thinking it will be, bnecause the mdia has focused on heroism and that's the closest people seem to be able to get, in gras[ping what's remarakable about Le Tour. When we explain it, we talk about having to have a great day for three weeks straight-- no room for a bad hair day-- and 2,000 miles of racing partly uphill.) The marketing this year has brought people to us to ask us, because NOW they recall that for 4 years w'eve been talking about how exciting it is. Anyhow that's how it seems in our tiny town. But there is a diehard road cycling community here, and especially now that we have a small and wonderful cycle shop, it's getting kinda organized. The CamelBak's are coming out of the closet and it's not unusual now to see someone zoom past slow cars on clipless pedal clips-- fewer heavy mountain bikes on the road, and more aerobars, and so forth.

Perhaps it's not important to decide which came first, the chicken or the egg-- the marketing or the interest-- but just to notice that chickens and eggs often are found together and tend to perpetuate one another.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 01:39 PM

Hrothgar, I believe this is the second year an Aussie won the sprint jersey. It's nowhere near as big a deal as the yello jersey though.

I have to agree with Spaw. While cycling isn't as big here as it is in France or Columbia, we all know who Lance is, we all know what he's done and just did! We all know that he's going for number 6 next year. Lance delivers an important message to all of us; that you can come back stronger than you've ever been before!

Anyways, my podium perdictions for next year - Armstrong, Ullirich, and Hamilton. Although if Beloki is back, one of these guys could be ousted. Also, watch out for Leipheimer. He was crashed out in the opening in the same crash that broke Hamiltons collar bone this year. He's readdy to have an impact. Heras could also be a strong contender for the podium (although he'll be supporting Armstrong) if is any stronger than he was this year.

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:15 PM

I also wish the 'minor' sports were better known in America, and perhaps we are getting there....there is little space left on regular TV channels, though, after Basketball, football, baseball & hockey get through! OLN does show us some choices (as does ESPN, if you stay up till 3AM!)

as in all major sports, cycling is getting ambiguous about nationalities. An 'American' won the race, but NOT "America"...many riders from different countries made up professional teams, and they joked about the Aussie(McEwen) who now lives in Belgium being a Belgian if he won and an Aussie if he lost..*grin*. Guys from MANY countries performed well in that long race..three French riders did very well, as well as Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Brits, Dutch and others. (3rd place to Kazakstan!)

The only sour note for me, was those sprinters like Petacchi who rode just for a win or two and then quit...yeah, those mountains are work, but if that's all they can do, let 'em just enter sprint races...

ah, well, it was great fun watching, and I admire ANYONE who can ride a bike for 3 weeks that fast!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 04:34 PM

Agreed, Bill D. I have ridden a few centuries, although not recently, and I recall being walking wounded for several days afterward, and some multi-day rides with lower daily mileage. The thought of riding 250K, coupled with several category 1 climbs, makes me shudder!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Benjamin
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:26 PM

Well Bill, in defense of riders like Petacchi, there is sometimes an alterier motive to entering a tour. You may recall how Cipolini had three stage wins at the Vuelta last year and then pulled out. He was in to train for another race that he won. Before his cancer, Lance Armstrong did the same thing, altough I think it was just one stage win instead of six. I do understand what your saying, but it's common practice. The tours go to the better climbers. The Giro and the Vuelta are even harder on sprinters.
On another note, do you think they'll finally let Cipolini race in the tour again next year?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 05:42 PM

I understood it was getting a 'team' with Cipolini in it qualified, rather than the man himself...I thought I remember hearing that 2 or 3 teams were vying for the last entry.

as to "The tours go to the better climbers.."...the tours go to those who can do it all! Armstong is a fine time-trialer and a 'decent' sprinter, as well as an excellent climber...same with #5, Zubeldia, and Hamilton...etc... several who were only climbers did not finish high.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:27 PM

It's not "ulterior motives." It's openly planned, multiple agendas well supported by tradition (i.e. the sponsor system). The riders all accept it and work with it. It's how they customize their season to their individual needs and abilities. Same thing as horse racing, really.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 01:50 AM

Two men in my neighborhood flew to Corsica a few weeks ago for a couple of weeks of cycling through the countryside. They had a great time; did between 50 and 60 miles a day even though there were a lot of climbs with a significant elevation gain. They took many pictures, cemented friendships, and came back muscled and tan.

I asked one of the men about the Tour de France. He grunted, A recipe for disaster. To me that's not what biking is about.

Somewhat like the difference between the jogger and the walker- they say that it's easy to tell them apart: the walker is the one with the smile.

Different strokes, and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 11:15 AM

2004 ROUTE announced.

BOB ROLL's articles at OLN.

Cable channel OLN's coverage of the Route announcement, 9:30 PM this evening Eastern time (US).

Vive Le Tour! There will be an individual time trial... up Alpe d'Huez!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 09:19 AM

Beloki and Vinokourov are both out of the 2004 Tour.

Awwwwww!!!!!

:~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 10:46 AM

Give "French Revolutions" a read. It is about someone who decides to "DO THE TOUR".
Hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:23 PM

Shame that we face the prospect of the once a year junky setting a record he doesn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 01:50 PM

Van, are you on one of the teams? If not, you must have a tiny penis indeed to feel the need to say such a thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 02:11 PM

Guest/Van's post represents the view of many who prefer the feats of past TdF legends, when it was the custom for them to ride all the Grand Tours in the year.

Armstrong's big innovation is year-round training, equipment/fitness testing, and route analysis, all mostly aimed at the Tour de France.   

All riders benefit from his obsessions in those areas. By trying to knock him off the Tour podium, they challenge their own envelope and try his discoveries. I think they respect him as a fair competitor, but there is no denying his approach is different from the traditional; and people sometimes prefer the tradition to the evolution.

Whatever. Interesting year, anyway.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,two wheeler
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

Van, why do you feel that way??

Curious...

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

.... and another familiar anti-Lance slam is that he's nothing without his team.

I prefer to enjoy seeing the teams that do NOT support one leader, as they fall apart in competitive bullshit year after year instead of emulating the Postie model. One team to watch that DOES seem to understand the team-strategy approach is Tyler Hamilton's gang.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:15 PM

Hey Susan. I know what Van was referring to. I'm just annoyed when someone has to slam something without bothering to argue the point. It's just silly to say Armstrong "doesn't deserve" the wins. Sports have always been about doing the most to win what you wish to win. Lance doesn't need to win race after race to pay his bills, so he doesn't feel the need to wear out his body anymore than he needs to. I'm sure his bout with cnacer helped him realize that.

I like the teamwork system the US Postal Team has. Other teams are getting better too.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:39 PM

BC-- I think he DOES wear out his body; he just does it training, not competing. In a way he is always competing-- with himself-- because that is his personality.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 06:57 PM

Well that's true, to some extent, but it's pretty obvious that training is a bit less damaging than competition. There's at least less chance of serious injury due to accidents and peleton pile ups. And in training, there's no good results in pushing yourself when you're already injured or sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Jun 04 - 07:21 PM

Is someone under the impression that Lance isn't competing...and winning? Check this out!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 11:11 AM

From a letter posted at www.cyclingnews.com, referencing fitness and BIG changes in pro racing mandated to kick in soon:

Days of racing needed to prepare

People often comment how different times are between the Merckx era and today. Well, I'm amazed by how different times are between the 1990s and now. I remember at the beginning of the Giro in 1994, that Indurain's form was called into question because he had only had 20 days of racing up to that point. He came 3rd and later went on to win the Tour de France. Added to this, back then the Giro appeared to be the riders choice of preparation for the tour.

Now days, not only is there a huge lack of real TdF contenders at the Giro, but some of the TdF contenders would be lucky to even complete 20 days of actual racing before the main event.

I'm not really sure on the reasons for this, but some guesses could be

- better technology in training aids;
- recuperation is more difficult due to stricter doping controls;
- the competition is so much harder and faster requiring specific preparation, etc.

Regardless of the reasons, I can't wait for the Pro Tour in 2005. Hopefully this will bring back some of the Merckx era where we saw a whole lot more of our champions. An era where there was no such thing as a 'one hit' wonder.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:04 PM

I seem to recall that by winning the Tour last year Armstrong equalled someone else's previous record, correct? So if he wins this year he'll set a new record, but it isn't like he is doing something all that new, we just have short memories when it comes to sporting records.

The one thing more than any other that might equip him well to ride in that grueling race is to live and train in Austin, Texas. The summer heat is miserable down here, and if he's accustomed to that he can handle anything the race in Europe can throw at him.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:15 PM

I can't see where the length of my penis should affect my views on what constitutes a real cycling hero. (For those who worry about such things it largely depends on the weather and how long I've been out on the bike in it.)I've followed cycling for many years (since the days of Anquetil) and I feel, in common with many other European cycling fans, that in a way, Armstrong has a reputation that is ill deserved. One race a year is not much of a palmares in comparison to the riders who have previously won 5 Tours. Previous Tour winners rarely rode all 3 of the big tours but all rode the Classics: Paris - Roubaix, Paris - Tours, Fleche Wallone, etc. That's why I feel how I do. It is the only sport I really enjoy and an opinion on a major player is an entitlement of any fan. Beats the hell out of rioting at football matches. I'm sure twowheeler also discusses such merits with his mates. It' a long time since I was fit enough to be in a team.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,twowheeler
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:11 PM

Thanks, Van. I thought there was substance behind your feelings, and I appreciate your response. I may not totally agree with you, but I can see and respect your point of view.

Thanks for the clarification.