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BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 20 Jun 04 - 02:41 PM well, Lance is obviously a great rider, and I have watched him find energy when I can't imagine where he got it.. but on the TV OLN network this Spring...there is almost NOTHING about cycling except "homage to Lance" documentry series..."How Lance does it...in 27 chapters" I'd like to see some of the rest of it....and boy, won't it be interesting if something happens and Lance falters...or falls...and can't get # 6? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:16 PM What is "palmares"? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: GUEST,Van Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:25 PM A palmares is a cyclist's record of wins, places, records etc, in short his performance over the years. (No offence to females who also have one.) Cycling has a wee vocabulary of its own like most sports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:50 PM That one is suddenly quite fashionable! The rest I understand, but that one seemed new. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 02 Jul 04 - 07:02 PM Le Grande Buffet starts tomorrow! OLN has their online, live audio feed planned for this year again, too! Now we shall see, how is this Azevedo man.... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 03 Jul 04 - 02:19 AM Lance has given other riders on his team a chance to shine, for example Floyd Landis won the Tour Portugal with Lance supporting him. The team to watch for this year I believe is Liberty Seguros. Yeah I said Heras would make the podium last year, and it didn't actually happen (or come close). However, Liberty is stronger than any Once team and with one of the time trials being up hill, this could be Heras' best chance for a podium finish. I'm kind of upset about David Millar being kicked out of the tour. I was hoping to see some good competition in the time trials, other than Armstrong and Ullrich. Nozal however might be able to provide that. I'm also excited to see Cipolini finally get invited. How a division one team with the reigning world champion didn't get invited last year is beyond me, but assuming someone doesn't crash him out of the tour, he should provide some good competition for Petachi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: ard mhacha Date: 03 Jul 04 - 10:04 AM A French Court ruled out Lance Armstrong`s right to reply on accusations in a new book,"LA Confidential- The Secrets of Lance Armstrong". Emma O`Reilly, Armstrong`s former assistant claims in the book that the cyclist asked her to get rid of used syringes and to give him make-up to conceal needle marks on his arm. British World time-trial champion David Miller already out of the Tour, withdrew from the British Olympic squad after admitting to EPO use. Also Spanish rider Gorka Gonzalez has been excluded after he failed a drugs test while the entire Kelme team were banned following allegations of doping by a former rider. This has been going on for years, it seems to be impossible to eradicate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: artbrooks Date: 05 Jul 04 - 11:04 PM And the sprinter from Oz took Stage 2! Good on yer, mate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:44 AM The way they go now, I bet on an Australian to wear le maillot jaune tonight. A first show of strength by Armstrong and his team. Some of the other favourites are in the second half of the peloton which is an additional bonus. It looks like some of the competitors might lose about 2 minutes tonight. Of the other favourites I up to now only see Ullrich and Botero in the first group. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:30 AM Heras and Hamilton were also in the first group. The other favourites have lost close to 4 min on them and on Mancebo, Ullrich and Armstrong. An Australian has both the yellow and the green jersey. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:41 AM BTW, I predict that tomorrow night a US-boy will wear the yellow jersey. First name: Lance Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:43 AM Pretty exciting stage all the way around. Lots of changeups all along the parts of the course. Missed most of it except HEARING it, as urgent morning correspondence had my back to the TV, but looking forward to a nice relaxed view of it all tonight. But it looks like young Iban Mayo will have to bank the fire in his belly till another year. And next, the team time trial, and the long blue train. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Jul 04 - 12:28 PM Of interest* in the General Classification after stage 3.... ~S~ 5 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor, 0.16 9 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank, 0.24 11 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC, 0.26 18 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team, 0.31 20 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems, 0.32 42 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC, 0.46 57 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) Liberty Seguros, 0.51 101 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi, 4.23 *At least, these are the ones we're watching at our house. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 06 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM The team time trial is Heras' first chance to get some time back. Sure, Liberty isn't Once, but the team has the same director, who works harder on the team time trial than anyone, and he did get the majority of his Once team to come over to Liberty. I agree however that tomorrow, Lance will be in yellow. If Heras is able to make up any time, it probably won't be enough. Any how, it should be an exciting duel between the two team timetrial powerhouses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: ard mhacha Date: 06 Jul 04 - 02:38 PM With most of the riders on "speed" we should expect the cream to come to the top, allez for the Tour de Farce. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 06 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM so sad to see so many injuries in the early stages. Mayo is probably out of it all. Armstrong sure manages to get where he wants, doesn't he? One thing that bothers me about general safety is how often spectators crowd onto the racing surface. I'm not sure what could be done, but sometimes idiots who want their 15 seconds of exposure make it very difficult to ride a bike! I don't suppose anyone would consider fewer motorcycles and autos in the pack...or more rules about their behavior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: artbrooks Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:22 PM I doubt that Mayo can make up 4 minutes, but stranger things have happened. Armstrong, of course, is where he is entirely because of his team...the first three stages don't tap into his strengths at all. Its all about having a strong team that protects the star and balances out his less strong points (I almost said "weak points...HA!). You're certainly right about the spectators...wasn't it the 2002 Tour when Armstrong went down after catching his handlebars on the strap of someone's bag? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 06 Jul 04 - 10:41 PM The fall was last year (2003) with the spectator, and vehicles are VERY much regulated. ALL the vehicles on the road on the day's route are Tour-authorized and TRour-governed vehicles of one sort or another. But road cycling IS road cycling, and believe me, far more are hurt and killed each year by regular motorists and truckers than are hurt in the Tour. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 06 Jul 04 - 11:14 PM The motorcycles can be big problem, but they do provide us with all the T.V./video footage. Team cars are usually pretty well behaved. There was that incident though in the 2002 Vuelta where one of the cars for a French team ran David Millar off the road at the bottom of Angrilu. Whoever was driving that car should of been arrested for vehicular assult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jul 04 - 12:22 PM General classification after stage 9 6 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 9.35 11 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 10.11 16 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 10.19 20 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 10.30 22 Bobby Julich (USA) Team CSC 10.35 23 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank 10.43 34 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) Liberty Seguros 11.20 62 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Saeco 12.57 86 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 15.02 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: 42 Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:46 PM was it really a dog that caused that crash the other day? j |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jul 04 - 01:49 PM Yes, or its stupid owner. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jul 04 - 02:18 PM ... but you know, it's a tour of France, not an Olympic-regulated or arena sport. Is it unfortunate that things happen that cause injury and so forth? Of course. But it is a ROAD race with tradition, and the crowd-- in all its forms-- is part of it. To people new to watching it, I'm sure it all seems quite odd, but to old hands-- it's "Le Tour"! If you listen to the comments by Bob Roll, Phil Liggett, and Paul Sherwen-- all experienced riders and Tour habitues-- you'll hear a certain fatalistic tone when these things occur. Vive Le Tour! ~S~ PS, a number of amateur and proferssional cyclists are killed each year, not in the Tour but in training rides, by motorists, sometimes running them off the road on purpose. Compared to the reality of road cycling, the Tour is a safe place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: jimmyt Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:22 PM forgive me for being so dumb, but I can't figure out a lot about how this event is scored. Don't get me wrong, I love to watch it, and sit there glued to the tv, but in reality, I am about in as much of a daze about the strategies as I would be watching cricket with Bulgarian announcers. It is really a confusing sport if you don't know the rules, ie hard to figure out on your own. If anyone could shed some simple light on it, I would appreciate it Thanks jimmyt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jul 04 - 04:58 PM Simple is not so quick, but Bob Roll has a great new book out that explains a lot about it. OK, as simple and clear as I can be-- About 200 guys enter the race, arranged in teams invuited to participate. Each indivuidal and each team is commefcially sponsiored. The sponsirs have different interests and expecations based on how much of the freight they've undertaken to pay. But not all 200 finish-- there is attrition expected daily and as the phases of the race go on. To fininsh you have to ride EACH sceduled day-- so a boo-boo on the knee is something you either ride with, or it knocks you out. No injured reserve status. Prizes are given for shortest overall time accumulated (Lance races for this) AKA the "GC" or General Classification. A rider of his caliber has many sponsorhips and he shares his overall prize $$ with other riders on his team. They ride so as to give him every possible chance of winning the GC prize. Each team member has specific skills to devote to this and final team membership takes all this into account. (If it were horses, think steeplechasers.) Prizes are also given for sprints, and the sprinters are usually quite poor at mountain climbing on the bike but they are specialists at racing in short bursts. They concentrate on the flat stages, and there are sprints at the end as well as sprinkled into the race couse itself. Teams that focus on sprints also have riders who help the sprinters get up front when it matters, in time to break through the wannabes and come across the line first. (In horse terms, think American Quarter Horse.) Prizes are given for mountain climbing, and teams organize around that too. (Cross-country eventers or foxhunters.) A GC rider is usually a generalist who is good at all apsects of cycling and who has the stamina to survive three weeks of varied terrain and varied race conditions. A GC-contending rider will let the sprinters have their fun and not worry about their GC ranking while that phase of the race is going on, because they know that the mountains will separate the men from the boys and the well-organized (well-sponsored) teams from the less-well-organized teams. So by the time the whole three weeks have been run, the GC winner has managed to get round the course in the shortest total time. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: jimmyt Date: 13 Jul 04 - 05:45 PM thanks susan. WHat is the strategic purpose of the pellaton? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM The Peloton is just everyone trying to ride their race. Whatever one's overall race goal may be, there is a strategic approach to riding in it. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:12 AM Just to add a bit and tell why sprinters never go for the general classification and why people going for the general classification don't go for sprints and what's the use of teams when the main general classification is the individual one. (1) Sprinters have more body weight due to having more muscle mass. That makes them slow (due to their weight) in the mountains. But they are not as bad in the mountains as it looks when you see their placement in the general classification more than 1 hour behind Armstrong. If a good sprinter would go for the general classification in time he would be among the first 20 or 30 perhaps. A German sprinter and world champion, Rudi Altig, oncve tried that and ended a good nineteenth. Now, they are so specialised that they don't want to lose strength in the mountain legs and therefore cycle slower than they actually could. There is a time limit (10 to 15% more than the winner, perhaps). They know that and they do just enough to come in before the limit. At the foot of a big mountain someone calls out 'groupetto' and a slow train of those not going for the general classification forms. They are informed about the time difference and race according to the rule 'as slow as possible without being disqualified'. (2) Why do people going for the general classification no sprint. They actually are not bad at sprint, but their lower weight is a disadvantage in sprints. However, if Armstrong would go for the green jersey (the classification according to ranks on arrival) he might make even the podium or even win (Merckxs once did win both classifications). He would end lets say tenth in sprints in flat legs and would be among the first three in mountain legs, In addition he could win overall the points classification. He doesn't make it for one single reason: It is too dangerous. He and Ullrich always come in now between 20th and 30th place, safe from the sprints and safe from falls (and lost time) in the main field. In several of the Tours, Armstrong had been about fifth in the points classification for winning a lot of points in the mountain legs. But he doesn't risk the win in what he is best for a possible but unsure win in what he is good. (3) Noone can now win the Tour on his own. The last who could do that was Merckxs. The reason for that is the advantage a rider has if riding in a big group (less wind). The speed can be over 50 km/hour and at that speed a lone cyclist needs 10% more strength as a rider in the middle of a group. The differences in strength are less than these 10 % so no single rider can outperform a group at top speed. In the mountain stages, the velocities can drop to 15 km/h. At that speed and in the mountains, the wind plays nearly no role, so a single man can outperform a group. That's why they come in teams. Armstrong never will go at the head of a group as long as he has a teammate with him. He has the easy life for most of the Tour. His teammates bring him the food and the drinks so he hasn't to slow down at food control points. He is never in the wind, he doesn't have to wait for teammates with a flat tire. When he has a flat tire a teammate gives him his cycle and rides on Armstrongs new cycle from behind up to the front for a quick change. So, for Armstrong and his rivals the Tour is easy for at least 95 % of the race. But the last 5 % is what makes the overall winners. At the end of a long day of cycling through the mountains the finish is high on a mountain. His teammates are then tired from making all the work for him and he usually is on his own among peers who are also without helpers. No benefits any more from riding behind another. Now he has to show why he is the leader of a team. He rides up a mountain as fast as he can for half an hour or a bit less. If he is good at that he'll take 2 min off his rivals, enough to win the overall classification. He is also alone in the two time trials. The wind is the same for everyone and his team expects him to be the fastest rider. In the sprints, the team also is vital: The best sprinter is behind his teammates who make the pace as fast as they can. One by one they drop out due to exhaustion. The fastest of his teammates is the last. Ideally, he goes out of the way 100 m from the finish line. If in doing so he crosses the path of a rival of his own sprinter that's an extra benefit. The sprinter only does the tlast 100 m on his own. A group of riders can be as quick as the peloton, if they are at least about twenty. Fewer riders can on flat stages never be as quick as the peloton. As small group will ride in 'Belgian circle' (or however you call it) that is the first man in the wind only stays there for a few seconds and then drops back to the last place and so on. It looks like a continuous circle and so this group can perform nearly as quick as the peloton. If you see a rider not contributing to this circle, always staying at the last position, he is a teammate of the man with the yellow jersey. He is not expected to help others to take the yellow jersey from his mate. So he is probably the strongest maof this group when it comes to a sprint. He could win the stage and there is no official rule against it, but they would make him rue that decision some time later. Someone who has not shared the hard work is expected to stay in the background when there is the fight for the laurels. When Ulrich was winning the Tour, Virenque was his main rival. On a mountain stage, Virenque was attacking and Ullrich follwed as the only rider behind Virenque. They rode together for the whole of the last ascent, Ullrich always in second place (he was leading on time at that moment). Ullrich could have won the stage, but he did what was expected, he stayed in second place. You have seen similar deeds from Armstrong too. Knowing the official rules is one thing, knowing the iron clad other rules is another thing. Today is the first day on which the men for the general classification have to show how strong they are. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Jul 04 - 09:08 AM Yes, Wolfgang, good job. I think I watched two Tours intently and did a lot of reading before the commentary began to really sink in. It can't really be learned and integrated in three weeks. All the info is there-- it's just so complex the brain needs time to sort it. Like learning poker by watching. Enjoy what you can and let the rest sit a bit-- it will make more sense next year. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:37 PM Of my several typos I'd like to correct two: Ullrich (not Ulrich) and Merckx (not Merckxs). The day after tomorrow will tell who can make the podium. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: GUEST,Blackcatter Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:03 PM Beyond being a natural occurance in a race with 200 riders, the Peloton also has a useful purpose. When one or more riders break away from the pack on a "break-away," often tiems they're hope is to finish that day's stage in a significantly shorter time, therefore moving up in the standings. The Peloton allows the majority of the riders to catch those break-away riders most of the time, since a rider in the Peloton uses up to 30% less energy riding in that crowd instead of riding by himself or in a small group. Therefore, the mas of riders can use their energy more effectivly and typically "reel" the break-away riders back to the Peloton. Of course, some riders can maintain their lead by the end of a stage and do more up in the standings. As for scoring, it's all pretty simple. The person with the lowest elapsed time wins the race. The person with the lowest elapsed time in the "mountain stages" wins "King of the Mountains" and the rider who wins the most sprints/has the shortest elapsed time during them wins the Sprinting prize. Remember there are mini-sprints a couple times a day in most stages as well as the individual and team time trials. Why does Lance win (in no particular order)? He is one of the strongest riders (watch him burn up them mountains better than all but the mountain specialists). He is one of the fastest riders (typically he's at the top or near the top in time trials and he almost never finishes behind the Peloton). He is one of the best with strategy and knows his main opponents weaknessses. He has one of the best teams that work with him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:28 PM Sorry, but 'King of the mountains' is not determined by the times on the mountain stages, but by the points you get for being first, second, third and so on on the top of the mountains (not: at finish) irrespective of how far you are before the next. The higher the mountain the more points you can get. For the green jersey (best sprinter) the equivalent is valid: 30 points for the first (whether half an hour, half a minute or half a split second before the next), 25 for the second and so on. The flatter the stage the more points for the winner. On mountain stages you don't get as many points for being first as on flat stages. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Folkiedave Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:37 PM In answer to the question at the start - Derek Woods of Sheffield City Morris is a keen cycling fan and is following part of the tour at this very moment. It does mean he is so fit he can caper over a bus shelter. (OK I exagerrate but you know what I mean). Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:51 PM The time bonuses also change from time to time, sometimes every year, depending on the course and how the race organizers want to weight it. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:46 PM an interesting sidelight of the race is the 'political' and gentleman's agreement to allow certain riders to 'win' a stage when they 'could' be beaten, but have ridden well, and are in their home town, or sentimental favorites..etc... as long as it doesn't affect the overall results or cost a serious contender a lot of points. Armstrong let Heras win a stage one year when he probably could have beaten him..and a few similar things happen each year.. Also, there is a sort of agreement that if a major contender has a bad fall or flat tire, his opponent will slow down a bit to allow the 'competition' to continue....which ultimately is good for publicity and viewership. (and next time it might be YOU that has the bad luck!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 15 Jul 04 - 02:12 AM This tour has been quite unpredictable. Petachi and Cipolini are both out, and Liberty rode a terrible team time trial. I don't really believe that the GC contention will get interesting till the last week as that is when all the main contenders are trying to peak. In the mean time, I still hold onto a small glimmer of hope for Heras. Witht he moutain stages here, he just might have a chance to finally get back the time he needs before the time trials. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:03 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 15 Jul 04 - 04:17 PM TEAM MOUNTAIN STRATEGY ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 16 Jul 04 - 06:00 AM I see Tyler Hamilton and Oscar Sevilla as the main contenders of Armstrong. Ullrich this year has not a good team for the mountains though his personal shape seems to be good. Ullrich has lost his strongest teammate before the Tour by injury, last year's third placed Vinokurov. His second strongest teammate, Botero, seems to be out of form completely. The young French champion, Thomas Voeckler, doesn't look like he wants to hand over the yellow jersey without a fight, but he isn't strong enough yet. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 16 Jul 04 - 11:43 AM That Kloden fellow, he's new to me, but he looks like an interesting factor for this year. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 Jul 04 - 07:45 AM Just in case you wonder, he's new to me too (except that I knew the name of course: Klöden). I see nobody now among the other cyclists to stop Armstrong's sixth (and if that happens: last I'd say) victory. The only other possibilities are: a downhill crash, Armstrong getting sick, or the sick way how Eddie Merckx was stopped on his way to his sixth victory. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Jul 04 - 11:28 AM I feel like this-- if fate removes Armstrong, I'm happy just to see the old Lance has returned. Of course I hope he wins, but I don't have that sense of dread anymore. I also hope he retires now-- I can't tkae this nect year! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:04 PM Hamilton has abandoned; I dunno about Heras. ~S~
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Blackcatter Date: 17 Jul 04 - 12:34 PM Damn! Hamilton is out. I was really hoping he'd do well this year. Sorry about my scoring mistakes. above. Just going by memory, which isn't as complicated at the silly scoring system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:32 PM These are from cyclingnews.com, BTW, and when I posted above they had not finished posting all the results, so here is Heras, about even with the USPS domestiques:
~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:49 PM Heras crashed on a decent lost too much time. He's out of contention. Still, I'd have to respect him he finsihes the race anyways. It's too bad to see this happen in his first tour as the main guy on his team. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Jul 04 - 01:59 PM Sad to see Spaniards fall from grace in the Pyrenees, too. Still, Lance WILL have his way. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Bill D Date: 17 Jul 04 - 02:58 PM missed today...what happened to Hamilton? He was doing pretty well. (and I am impressed with Voeckler, no matter how it ends!) Ullrich is still around if anything 'happens' to the leaders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: Benjamin Date: 17 Jul 04 - 05:07 PM Yeah, but I'm still a fan of the Spanish riders, Heras and Mayo in particular. Liberty is way too strong of a team to be collectively riding so poorly. But hey, we still have the Vuelta. Heras is always stronger then. At least the season isn't over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Date: 17 Jul 04 - 08:26 PM Twenty-two seconds behind !! |
