BS: Tour de France, Anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 09:14 AM

That WAS a fun finish. I usually hate the evening run, because [shudder] Al Trautwig........ but I'd missed the daytime P&P versions.

But that one had us both cheering and screaming, and laughing. Faulkner even got a hockey-goal treat because he KNOWS when we whoop like that, there will be a treat, so he did his "act" to remind us.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM

HA! That was quite a finish today. Cancellara snuck in and roundly whipped the sprinters at their own game! Good for him! He gets a few more days of glory before the shake-out begins in the mountains.

(I 'would' love to see a breakaway succeed, but it is not likely on flat courses)

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:43 PM

I still watch it on the TV....always interesting. They re-run it in the wee hours, and I often watch it again...

They GOTTA figger out how to keep spectators out of the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Cats
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:08 PM

Jon went up from Cornwall and managed to get a really good place by the end of the climb at Southborough. If you saw a cornish flag on the side of the road, that was him! He was full of it on the phone. Fantastic atmosphere. I had to work.....

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

I thought it wouldn't be any fun to watch this year, but:

Doping may narrow the field... people may come and go as riders... sponsors may arrive or fade.... but Le Tour is still Le Tour, with mountains and miles to achieve. So Lance isn't there to beat, not the amazing Badger, nor the blame-everyone Lemond....

In the end, it's not a race to beat people, but a race to overcome the course.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 04:53 AM

Anyone see the Tour Prologue and Stage 1? We went up to London for the prologue – astounding number of spectators. The police were expecting 500,000 – over 1 million turned up. The atmosphere was electric.

On Sunday morning we strolled along to the end of our lane and set up camp next to the village pub. By the time the caravan arrived, let alone the race, there must have been about a thousand people there. On one side of us was a couple from Holland and on the other a couple from Scotland. All this at a small village crossroads south of Ashford! A real party atmosphere pervaded the place, everybody chatting to everybody (remember, the way we used to?). Everything that moved got a cheer, from every official car that passed even long before the race arrived, to the police and gendarmerie. When the race finally arrived we made so much noise you couldn't hear yourself think.
Apparently more than 2 million people turned out to watch along the route.

What a phenomenal weekend. A big thank you to all who organised it all, but the biggest thanks must go to Ken Livingstone for getting the ball rolling in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:24 AM

The press conference with Bjarne Riis (still broadcasted) brought no surprise: He has used dope as well, from 1993 until 1998, the end of his career. He has taken Epo, cortisone and growth hormones. In particular, Riis was doped when he was winner of the 1996 Tour.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:04 AM

Wow...what a mess. I wonder how many will start this years race. If everyone admits to doping, will all the results stay the same?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:14 PM

THANKS for the heads-ups!

BTW, I don't see any problem with this all being in this thread.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:34 PM

Art.... Just do it yourself. Start a new thread, include the last few posts in your first post, post here asking that people post in the new thread, and add a blue clicky to the new thread in your last post here.

Post haste.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 24 May 07 - 01:27 PM

How long does it take to get through to some people that this "sport" is a tour de farce.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:45 PM

Danish Telecom (1993-1997) racer Holm has announced his coming out just an hour ago.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:35 PM

Ullrich has fired his lawyer today. The lawyer had said in an interview this morning that the notion should be given up that it is possible to cross the Pyrenees with an average of 40 km/h without medical help.

Bjarne Riis, Telecom's winner of 1996 has announced a press conference for tomorrow. Half of his team of that year have now admitted doping in that year.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:24 AM

Maybe a joe-clone could take the last few messages and start a 2007 Tour thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:18 AM

This morning's press conference of Aldag had the predicted outing: He has taken Epo (administered by university doctors for sports medicine) for many years.

But the press conference had a surprise guest: Erik Zabel

He has taken Epo for one week in 1996 and never after because he couldn't handle the side effects. However, he also has taken the "miracle drink" from the Belgian team masseur. When asked what was in there the masseur only told there is nothing in there that can interfere with the doping test after the race. We now know the drink contained coffeine, Alupent and Persantin (the last two are medications for the heart).

Zabel: I have taken nothing in recent years but I know that it is still as easy to dope as it was 10 years ago. The risk to be found out is minimal and there are a lot of excuses if you are found.

Why telling now when he was not suspected? He loves the sport and wants it to be clean for his son Rick Zabel (who starts his career right now).

Aldag: It was more or less clear that you would lose the job amd the income when not doping. One had to lie all those years for the sake of the income and the family.

Zabel: The only way out is the DNA profile of each racer and better tests.

They don't know about Ullrich both say.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:45 PM

It seems many of those who DID dope will accuse Lance because they 'assume' no one can be that good without doping.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: gnu
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:08 PM

Hey..... it's cut and dry.... Lance didn't win because of any drugs. He could just pedal faster because he was cut and dry.

It's a joke. Easy, now.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:53 PM

There was a BIG uproar at a court hearing a few days ago, about whether Floyd Landis would be exonerated or not. He still claims he is innocent, and had Greg LeMonde recanting earlier testimony where he accused Landis (says he was threatened)....In the meleé, Landis fired his manager who has made remarks seemingly against Landis....

I have no idea what is true & what isn't....but it sure will be an interesting tour!...if they find 12 guys who aren't guilty to ride in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:35 PM

They are falling quicker:

While I was writing Udo Bölts has come clean as well in a TV interview.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:22 PM

It is fun these days to read the German sports pages about doping in cycling.

Of course, no one actually believes that any of the Tour winners since more than 50 years has not been doped. But they all declared their innocence (the system forces them to lie, for if they tell the truth, they lose their jobs). It was common knowledge that nonsmoker Thurau's (multiple winner of stages and 5th in one Tour) urine contained nicotin.

Jan Ullrich once was found with dope in his blood but of course he only had made the stupid error to take something offered by a stranger in a disco. His blood is found in the office of a Spanish gynecologist? Now, can you really be sure that all your blood you ever have donated, has not landed in Spain? You can't. See?

"I have not cheated anyone" Ullrich is quoted which actually may be true in a sense for at least all of the first ten did the same.

Well, not it becomes fun:
First, the long time masseur of Team Telecom (now: T-Mobile) has told that all (wait for an interesting exception) of that Team werde doped in the years he was with them (covering the Tour wins of Ullrich and Riis). A week of dementis followed this information. Who would believe a masseur)

Now, from day to day the domino pieces fall:
Three days ago, one racer of that time declared he was doped (if one of the minor racers of that team was doped...)
Two days ago, a better known but still minor racer of that team followed suit.
Yesterday, old man Thurau admitted having been doped during all of his career (not that anyone had doubted it)
Today, the two university professors who were the Telecom team doctors have both admitted helping with the doping of the team in getting and administering the drugs (EPO) and making them hard to find in controls.
Tomorrow morning, Rolf Aldag, one of the closest helpers of Ullrich, and at present team chef of Telecom will have a press conference and come clean (it has been leaked).
I await the day after tomorrow with anticipation.

The single clean one of Telecom as the doctors and the masseur say? Erik Zabel. He was the man for the sprints and not for endurance. He has declined all offers of dope (if one may believe the whistleblowers).

There are only two possible ways in my eyes for the dope problem in endurance sports:
(1) Don't care which way they get their form but test regularly for dangerous levels and take out those with these levels without forcing them to lie about who has put the dope in their toothpaste without their knowledge.
(2) Have all of them give their blood after 2 weeks of close supervision and make a full DNA etc analysis of their blood for comparison so that those who dope just to the limit (Landis) can get caught.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 12:16 PM

Landis was on Jay Leno's show last night. It was interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Bikes
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM

Yikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:32 AM

If you get your head out of the sand and look around the US, you will find no country come close in drug violation than your own.
This should be your worry and what faces your youth.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:58 PM

I assume, ard, that YOUR country (which one was that?) is always upright and sensible in all its endeavors.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:55 PM

ard, sometimes you don't do yourself credit. You are taking that comment out of context. A read of the comments shows they were made in a discussion of the problem in the US. It does not acknowledge or allege that we are the source of the problem, or even the worst of the lot.

It is a problem in the US, just as it is everywhere. If you would confine you remarks to the problem, instead of trying to use it to further your "USA is the Great Satan in the world" slant, you would have more credibility. In short, confine your remarks to the topic as opposed to advancing your anti anything USA and you will come off better.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:37 PM

He does...in **general**....that does not mean he is aware of details in a specific case!

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:34 PM

A short extract from a paper on drugs use in the US, this from Barry R McCaffrey, Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy,

"Drugs use in sport has reached a crisis level, both among elite athletes and young American people", McCaffrey advises, "the US government should take the lead in the fight against drugs".

McCaffrey should have quite a knowledge of what is going on in US sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 12:08 PM

Yep...*IF* that test is verified and not just some 62% accurate 'maybe' thing, it would be a serious matter.

I will wait & see.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:12 AM

Bill, what I will be watching are the tests for the synths. I can accept that his body might produce naturally occurring Testosterone at a higher rate, and that should be more easily verified. But I want to hear about the testing protocols for the synthetic testosterone. If that is verified in an unchallengable method, the game is up. For me, that is the Sword of Damocles for Floyd's arguments.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:04 AM

The problem is that, in the effort to 'catch' as many cheaters as possible, they are rushing more & more new tests into use. Some of the tests are pretty straightforeward, and there are drugs no one would seriously consider using, as they are too easy to find.

But there are other tests that rely on VERY delicate and often debatable testing procedures. This is what happened with Landis. The very standards of what should be considered 'high' testosterone, or what is is an 'acceptable' ratio is not universally agreed on. In the past few years, several riders who tested out of the 'normal' range were finally cleared after doctors showed that their bodies produced the results normally!!!

Should we ban riders who have an unfair advantage due to their own inner workings? Lance Armstrong has an unusually high ability for his blood to carry oxygen, and a pulse rate that allows him to exert himself with less adverse effects....like many Ethiopian distance runners. Should races be open only to athletes within a certain range of body types, like boxing?

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence and accounts that say Floyd did NOT cheat...and 'some' that say he might have cheated. I do not KNOW...and neither do you!
Let the investigators do their work and hope that they make the RIGHT decision....not just a decision based on some policy to punish vague suspicions.


(and if they give the title to Pererio or Kloeden, they will just be pushing the issue downward, hmmm? Are their tests available?)

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 10:07 AM

Thanks for the correction, Paul. I was just working from my recollections from years ago about the Soviet Olympic athletes. Seems that there was a fair amount of scandal that spawned a lot of todays testing.

The fact is that this is a problem for all nations. It is not something that one can lay on the US.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:58 AM

"The US isn't at the root of doping. I believe that started with the old Soviet Union" said Big Mick.

No, a quick investigation will tell you it has been going on for many years. Britain had an early shock when Tommy Simpson died in the 1967 Tour de France, and was found to have taken amphetamines. Look up doping in Wikipedia for other examples going back forever.

What has changed is the detection technology, and the resulting wide eyed innocence of those caught taking a chance is wonderful to behold. I see one of Britain's best hopes for the European Games is banned after "accidentally" missing three test dates.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:53 AM

I don't want to argue with Peter, and I am not trying to argue with you. I am not even arguing that doping isn't a curse. I am suggesting to you that in your zeal to paint all things US as demonic, you sometimes make some pretty sweeping generalizations. The same kind that, if a Yank made them, you would be pointing the finger and chastising me for. The US isn't at the root of doping. I believe that started with the old Soviet Union, if I am remembering correctly. It is now a worldwide epidemic. If you read Lemond's and others comments, you would find that they all indicated that this is a problem common to all athletes in their sports.

And yes I do care about your opinion. Despite the fact that we tangle from time to time, I always look for your posts as I find them thought provoking and interesting.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 05:02 AM

US Olympic committee chairman Peter Ueberroth said,"doping is like a cancer, we are committed to winning this battle, but, the cold reality is this, we are not winning the battle, good progress is being made, but a great deal more has to be done".
Argue with Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 04:33 AM

Mick I never realised you cared , but lets face it and unfortunately the US cannot, have you read the letters in the US Press?, all blaming France for picking out Landis as a scapegoat.
Please read again Greg Lemonds statement, and really he should know.
So Mick, open both eyes to what is taking place in US sport, drugs are part and parcel of it, how many more examples do you need?.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:45 PM

Ard, you know I like ya, but lay off. If I made the kinds of sweeping generalizations you are making, you would come uncorked. Stop, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:13 PM

no, ard, I cannot "be sure" of any such thing. What I am sure of is that you have a strong opinion, and that you'd prefer it not be confused by extra facts or evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM

Greg Lemond a former winner told Bycyclist Online,-`I don`t think there`s a rider in the pack that prefers to take drugs. It`s simply what they are doing to keep up with the competition, and if they think everyone`s getting away with it, they feel like they need to use it too`-

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:58 PM

You can be sure of one fact, that throughout all US sport the amount of chemicals taken by your sportspeople will keep the Pharmaceutical companies and their shareholders in big bucks in our life time.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

We wouldn't want to make any sweeping generalizations, would we?

what is this "certainly"? I ask again...how do YOU know? Is it just your belief?

I DO know that there have been various drug scandals...in the US as well as elsewhere...but "every aspect"??? C'mon...Soccer? Swimming? Golf? Tennis? ....not all baseball players used steroids. Even the ones who admitted using agree that it was not universal.

I don't deny the problem; I just don't accept that any winner is automatically a cheater.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:12 PM

Not from the US , certainly he was a cheat , but with a bit mor savvy than Landis.
Every aspect of sport in the US is fueled by drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:33 AM

They used to win without cheating...are you saying that everyone NOW cheats? Or that everyone who is considered a contender cheats?

No one was tested more than Armstrong the last 7 years....so you insist that HE cheated?

Where do you get your information?

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:42 AM

NO ONE, can win this race without cheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:49 PM

If I read the news correctly, there must still be a process of investigation and appeal before anything is 'decided'.
Landis says what I wondered,,"Why would I do anything so stupid? I KNEW I would be tested!"

There is STILL reasonable doubt about the relevance of this test.

No one can seriously explain HOW an overnight dose of Testosterone could make that much difference. *IF* he did it, someone else knows about it....no one just 'happens' to have a testosterone patch handy in case they feel tired.


Let's wait and see before we decide that a great bike ride was a fake....or that NO ONE can win the Tour without cheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

A very short post, to validate my long standing opinion that the Tour de Farce is all of that, two years ban for drug taker Landis, as a former competitior who took part in the 1965 Tour, states,"You can`t win this race on mineral water".

Subject: RE: Tour De France
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

Go for the long thread Tour de France, anyone in the non music section.

No reason at all to be surprised. All of the last 10-15 winners were at least suspected to be doped or actually found out to be at one point in their career. Five times Tour winner Delgado was even found out to be doped after his Tour win, but not punished due to a technicality (the substance was not on the list yet by four weeks). One other (Dutch) Tour winner was found out to be doped but only got a time penalty. One yellow jersey wearer (Belgian) with a big overall lead was disqualified and stripped of his jersey for delivering the (clean) urine from a little container concealed at his body (in the armpit) . He was nicknamed "Mannekin piss" then.

Wolfgang

---

Threads combined -- JoeClone

Subject: Tour De France
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:17 AM

Seems like we've all been taken for a ride. I cheered the winner wholeheartedly and now I'm left feeling silly.

JG / FME

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:08 PM

still, it is a valid point, and I would also ask EVERYONE to watch the length of posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM

it was stated that articles longer than Joe's BIG monitor were subject to editing...obviously, he has editorial discretion about borderline cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Tour de France, Anyone?
From: GUEST,Hate To Be Picky, BUT
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM

Wasn't there something on Mudcat not too terribly long ago about cutting and pasting long articles, long being more than one screen full? How about a link?

HTBP