BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death

Subject: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 06:56 PM

Dear Angel of Death,

My, but you've been working hard lately! Just look at all the people of note you've visited just in the last couple of weeks: Gregory Peck, David Brinkley, Catherine Hepburn, Herbie Mann, Buddy Hackett, Buddy Ebsen, Strom Thurmond, Leon Uris. And those are just some of the ones that are household names. Throw in the usual number of Grandmas, Grandpas, Moms, Dads and other assorted friends and relatives and you've been a busy Angel indeed, haven't you?

Well, some of us think it's time you eased up. Why not take a little vacation or at least relax the pace a little bit? After all, you're going to get to visit each and every one of us someday, so what's the rush? Relax a little. You're doing a good job. And a tough but necessary job it is. You certainly don't have to prove anything to us. Believe me, nobody on this side wants to trade places with you.

I had been thinking about writing this little note to you just on account of all the famous people you've taken away lately, but I was having second thoughts about it. I reasoned that in a "media age" where there are more well-known people than ever before, it's inevitable that a higher number of well-known people will die. I mean, more famous people equals more famous people getting old equals more famous people dying. Right? So maybe you weren't really working harder than usual. Maybe it was just a hiccup in what we think of as the smooth curve of probability. So, there's really nothing personal in it. Right? After all, I only know all those people from movies, TV and such. It's not like I knew any of them in person.

But then our friend Phil stopped by yesterday and told us that his two-year-old grand-daughter had drowned at a July 4th picnic and it made me change my mind. That's hitting a little to close to home there, Bub. Knock it off! You've proved your point! Enough is enough! You're The Man and we all know it. You don't have to work so damned hard to prove it.

Sincerely,

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM

some of those famous folks were 90+, and had a good life. Sad as it is, we expected it...

2 year olds are different...perhaps them Angels are rolling dice.

No way to process it easily...(and I don't believe "God wanted her")...it just hurts...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:12 PM

Oh, Bruce. I am so, so sorry to hear about this. Deepest condolences to you, to your friend, and to all who are feeling this terrible loss.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

Dear Angel of Death, please pay no attention to the above letter. If you take a holiday, the natural ecosystems of the earth will grind to a halt, dependent as they are on millions and billions of deaths each day to eliminate detritus, process waste, and generate flowers, trees, and the next bunch of humans, and we will all die anyway, choking on the immensity of pure fleshy substances that would quickly overwhelm us. Everything we see around us, we owe to your efforts, and those of your partner in the weave of things, the Angel of Life. It is a bitter beautiful tapestry, but there it is.

However, if you do have a second, I wonder if you might send a memo to your boss, and ask him (or her) why he (or she) created such a demented scheme in the first place? What possible point does it serve?

If you could get back to us on that, it certainly won't stop all the killing, but a better answer than the ones we currently have would be a great comfort to us all.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 08:19 PM

Dear Angel of Death:

Yeah, fine, but give the little girl back. OK? That was a little TOO unfair, you jerk.
At a picnic, no less. You really are an asshole, ya know that? Beautiful tapestry or no.


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Jul 03 - 09:53 PM

Dear Angel of Death,
Are you really a taker of death or someone to meet up with the folks that die. In fact do you actually exist at all? Do we humans have to have an entity to lay blame, in order for us to cope with death? It may be hard for some folks to believe we are the creators of our own existence, and the creators of our own deaths so we need you to help us pass on through this life. Or not. I could just be full of shit and so could you.
In closing, if you do exist, I happen to have a hundred year life plan ahead of me, so stay the hell away, eh.
Rustic

Sorry to hear about your friends grand-baby Bee-Dub.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: LadyJean
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:12 AM

Yo' Angel!
Two year olds are easy! Why don't you go for George W!
Sorry to hear about your friend's grandchild. That is not fair!

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:22 AM

Dear Bruce,

So very sorry to hear of your friend's loss. My daughter's best friend lost her little girl in a similar way a couple of years ago, though she wasn't with her at the time. The grandparents were and blame themselves; they are a nurse and a doctor and couldn't save her. Your friend will surely need a lot of support and comfort.

As to the Angel....well sometimes trying to keep things in balance seems darn harsh.

In sympathy,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:26 AM

Will Raptor's be next? Would it be a blessing or a curse? Which could be worse? Why is one taken and the other left?

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:40 PM

(Bruce, I am truly sorry about your friend's grandbaby. That just ain't fair at all.)

Dear Angel,

Do you take requests?

Sincerely,

Kim C

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Raptor
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:47 PM

Take me instead!

RAPTOR

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 04:31 PM

...and Maynard Jackson.

Hey Angel,

Put in for a vacation ok? You don't get paid overtime, so take a vacation with your comp time. Just a small one. Forget about messing up the ecology, the white folks have already done that. We Induns will cover for you about this ecology thing while you take a well deserved rest. Aren't your wings about ready to moult now anyway? Take it from me, vacate and party,party,PARTY Baby!

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 05:14 PM

Hail to you, Angel of Death! It had not occurred to me to write to you until I saw this thread. Well, I think it is very good of you to be there for all of us at the time of passage, and I look forward to meeting you myself (again) when the time is right. This life has been a challenging and interesting one, and I think a good deal has been accomplished, so I'm reasonably well satisfied (at least on my better days).

I think you are far more beautiful than most people give you credit for. Of course, one could say that about life too...

How is Cecile? Is she out there yet? I saw her in a dream last night, and I miss her at times, but I figure all is well.

Please send my greetings to those I love who are no longer here. I'll see you when I see you, and that's just fine.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 05:35 PM

Dear Angel Of Death...

Get 'em ALL!

This'd be a great place if only someone would get rid of all the people...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 05:55 PM

no...just get rid of the canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 06:24 PM

Time, Clinton... It's just a matter of time. How patient are you? :-)

Be warned that by the time all the present lot of people who annoy you are disposed of there will be plenty of new young smart alecks coming along to bug the hell out of you if you happen to still be around. They will consider you to be an old fogie not worth their valuable attention. I wish you a very, very long life in interesting times...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 06:43 PM

No... See... You miss my point... I wanna see the end of the whole race, folks...

And ya, I realise that might be what you were talking about LH... It is gonna happen sooner or later... Especially if we don't ever get serious about getting off this ill fated ball of rock we call home... Mass extinction is the normal pattern here on this fragile blue marble...

It can't happen soon enough for THIS cat!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:27 PM

Well, Clinton, if the existence of all other humans troubles you so, why are you still participating in common space?

It escapes me how you can be the singer of song that you are, and harbor such desires -- it seems cockeyed, somehow!

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:30 PM

It's not that hard if you look at the Big Picture. A lot of times, I feel the same way as Clinton, but I don't think it's really very kind to discuss it in this thread. It seems disrespectful to Bruce and his friend's loss.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST,The Grim Reaper
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:56 AM

I think your being a bit hard on me; it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it.
Without me there would be no change, no Evolution, no nothing.
Life is engineered by selective death.
Every one of you, with a mind to comprehend the beauty Universe owes it to the life and death of the billions of living things that went before.
At this very moment in time my activities are keeping the Biosphere stable as you look out and back at the stars.

Yours inevitably

A.O.Death

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:03 PM

Clinton, I take it that you don't have children? ;\

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:12 PM

Exactly. Change is necessary in order that Life may advance and have an ongoing purpose. Change is desirable. So, in its own way, is Death. It's just the actual process of dying part that worries us. Dying can be painful and frightening in various ways. So can many other radical changes in Life.

Clinton, I doubt that providence is going to provide the sort of neat all-encompassing end solution to human imperfection that you have in mind. You would be better off, I think, to focus on the beauty in other people and in this planet...but if you don't want to that's your free choice.

It's easy enough to say that other people are causing all the problems in the World...but they are also doing all kinds of good and creative stuff that you and I enjoy and would be sad to be deprived of. If you don't think so, contemplate being suddenly left alone on a planet devoid of all other human beings and having to fend for yourself for the rest of your days. Would you relish such a situation? Who would make your next guitar or set of strings? Who would serve you a meal? Who would listen to you bitch about how bad people are? :-) It would be tough, I guarantee it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:14 PM

Ebbie... not on your life... Knocking her up seems like a really lousy thing to do to a woman you profess to love... That and the last thing the world needs is another yard ape running around...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:14 PM

Gee, Clinton -- is that bitterness of yours really a feature? Or just a thinly disguised bug? Some people would give thir eye teeth for the provelege of bringing a yard ape into the world and raising "it", but I guess there's no understanding some folks, huh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:15 AM

I agree with you Clinton... you go first, I'll hold your coat.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:37 AM

Misanthropists Unite ; you have nothing to toose except other peoples lives.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 11:38 AM

And again with spell checking.
Misanthropists Unite; you have nothing to loose except other peoples lives.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:11 PM

Piper:

I dinna mind loosing others' lives, as long as they are safe....I think ya meant "losing". Tell yer spellchecker about it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:13 PM

Gnu... If I knew that my leaving would positively and rapidly end the human race, I'd do it in a heart beat!

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST,DEATH
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:23 PM

TIC, TIC, TIC, TIC, TIC, TIC, TIC...............IT'S JUST A MATTER OF....OH BUGGER WHERE DID I PUT THAT SCYTHE?

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM

You need therapy, Clinton. I'm glad you don't have access to the famous "little red button" (the one in the President's warroom, I mean).

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:01 PM

Glad to see that the REAL death posted after that imposter above...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:14 PM

Clinton:

Even broken hearts heal, if you face them squarely.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:42 PM

Who said anything about a broken heart Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 03:03 PM

Sorry there, Clinton -- making an assumption. I tends toward the belief that people are basically social in nature until massive intereference of some kind occurs. Maybe that's just me being over-optimistic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 03:39 PM

You're right, Amos. Most people are basically social in nature. I was totally positive in my initial outlook on life. Then my parents and various schoolmates started working on me, and it's been a real struggle to stay positive ever since. Mind you, those were probably among the main challenges I decided to take on this time around, so there's not much use complaining about it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:07 PM

I have always believed that fear, bitterness and hatred were acquired tastes born out of overwhelming experience. Not at all natural to the human spirit. It's an important thing to remember, because if you lose sight of it, fear, hate and bitterness can breed like fucking rabbits.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 04:29 PM

Who even said anything about fear or hatred? (bitter, I might very well be a little bitter, but that's got very little bearing on this belief)

I'm just an extinctionist... and for very good reasons I think...

All you have to do is look at the horrible things the human race has done to the plant and to each other...

I think that evidence alone is overwhelming enough....

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:02 PM

So, you subscribe to the "glass is half empty" school of thought? Or do you figure it's 90% empty? :-) Well, it's great inspiration for writing protest songs, isn't it? I find that the key to this kind of thing is who you hang around with. For example: I went to public school for 13 years, and was almost driven insane. I went to visit a church community in Cuba a couple of years back, and came home so full of love and joy because of the company there that I was absolutely transformed by it. I went to stay at another spiritual community in Trinidad, and again came home with my faith in life and humanity very much renewed.

Maybe you are spending too much time around negative people, Clinton...or just not very enlightened people. Or maybe you're relying on the mind too much. The mind can easily reach pointless logical conclusions based on selectively interpreting evidence from a particular bias.

Here's another thought. Maybe you were a dinosaur a long time ago, expressed similar pro-extinction views and...got your wish!!! :-) Only you had to come back as a human being after awhile. Man, life sure is tough, eh? Look, I have my days when I'd like to check out too, but I don't want to take everyone else with me. I believe in people. Human beings are marvelous creatures and they work wonders on a daily basis.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:35 PM

Ya know what... I just typed a whole long response and deleted it... I've dumped my spew on this thread long enough...

And I feel no need to justify my personal beliefs to anyone...

So what ever fills yer pancake folks!

See ya down the road eh

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:12 PM

The following are my beliefs and opinions, only.

Letting go of self-awareness/ego for a little bit, looking at the Big Picture, which presumably the Cosmic does now and then, I can understand Clinton's point.

In the scheme of things, the Cosmic is infinite and loves everything in creation equally, but It is also impersonal. This usually drives people nuts as they cannot fathom a "supreme being" which does not have feelings/emotions and just IS. We assign such things as love, hate, favouritism, etc. to "God" in order to bring it to a level to which the masses can relate. "God must love that person more because they survived and the others did not," as BillD pointed out.

This impersonal love would mean that, yes, humankind will be let to make its way, extinction or not, depending on its own collective free will. If enough were to raise that mass consciousness to a certain level and take practical action (see example below) then disasters might be avoided and we might last a long time. It matters not to the Cosmic as the Cosmic Is and Will Be forever as we are and will be, as part of the Cosmic, just not always in the form we are so familiar with this time round. Also, to the Cosmic, humankind's time on Earth is a blink of the eye. Eons mean nothing as there is no Time.

Yes, the majority of people are good and kind and the glass is most often half full. If we didn't have those beliefs we couldn't even try to go on and live for anything. And, yes, I do believe in the power of thanks givings, prayers, and meditations, BUT not because I believe there is a Cosmic Being sitting there waiting to take my order (could I have fries with that?:-) and fulfill it; rather that when I do such things I am putting myself in the flow with the Cosmic, making that Divine connection which then manifests what I've petitioned for or something better for the highest good of all concerned, which may NOT seem like the best outcome to our everyday minds and hearts. That's what comes of trusting the Cosmic, though.

So, if humankind continues the way it is and destroys life as we know it, after we are gone, the planet will right herself given a respite from our machinations. Two interesting things I recently viewed/heard:

Experts now believe that inhabitants of Easter Island were a huge and magnificent culture which got out of hand and destroyed itself, much as it seems we are doing right now. Only things left of that culture are over nine hundred giant stone statues.

Secondly, if we each commit to taking our own reusable drinking mug with us, everywhere, with a spare in case we forget it, and use it for our coffee, tea, water, etc. the average person will use it 1,000 times over a 3-4 month period. IF we do that, we, each of us, would reduce our energy use, in that choice, by 98% and reduce our volatile compound release into the air by 89%. Those are pretty impressive numbers for such a simple, thoughful, practical action.

I would urge anyone who really cares, to listen to the interview HERE of Julia Butterfly Hill about her new book, One Makes the Difference from which I took the above tip.

So, lighten up on Clinton, eh? His heart is in the right place...he cares about our Home and is willing to step outside himself to see the Big Picture, imo.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:50 PM

That was a darned good post, Kat.

I've typed long posts and deleted them too, Clinton...on occasion. Sometimes silence is the best option. Lately, I've been finding I appreciate silence very much, in fact...it allows me to be more relaxed and reflect on things.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 09:28 PM

Aw, CLinton, you don't have to justify your beliefs. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was beatin' on you.   I was just really interested because I don't think I know anyone else who seriously asserts the species should be subtracted. I guess most people are pretty deeply immersed in the local scene to the point that they cannot assess the planet or the species from the outside.

But the other thing is that this is the only place I know where such interesting viewpoints hang out. (I mean Earth, not Mudcat). If the species got extincted we'd all have to learn the hard way how to communicate without bodies -- the whole sensory channel would be gone. We'd bump into each other like a bunch of blind guys with the lights out. Why? Because we have so much accumulated dependency on sensory channels.

It would be like all the computers in the world stopping at once -- all those dependencies would go flying in all directions, eh? What a mess that would be. I wouldn't know where to turn for love and laughter and just good communication without a species and a planet. It would take millenia to reconstruct it all.

Way I feel about it is similar to a 4th of July speech that appeared in the Congressional Record in 1976, the bicentennial, which closed with the line, "After two hundred years, it's too soon to quit!". You could look it up. It is one of the few pieces of my Dad's legacy that I have never forgotten or outgrown.



A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 01:30 AM

The man took a place by the edge of the lake, a seat on a familiar rock where he had sat many times before. This was the place where the sunset always gave the best show, melting down between two hills decked in pine and aspen, throwing gold at the slope that rose behind him. This evening was no disappointment as far as sundown went, and the fish feeding left soft circles like targets expanding in the surface, riffling the reflections of gold-pink in the sky. The desperate pain was not pummeling him now, but had resolved itself into a deeper current that was propelling him toward sleep, the final sleep from which none awaken. He carried a small bundle in his hand, and he unwrapped it carefully so as not to spill the contents into the water. He placed the pistol on a flat spot of the rock, wiped his forehead with the cloth, and dropped the cloth carelessly on the bank behind him. He had written several notes, but they had struck him as maudlin, or falsely noble, or vengeful. He had at last decided that the act itself said everything there was to say, that any string of words was superfluous.

The sun was bisected by the ridge between the hills, and he could see it deepen to red as it visibly crept downward. This was the chosen moment, and he picked up the revolver, cool in his hand. He spun the chamber, checked that the nose of the bullet was in the sweet spot, and raised the barrel to his forehead. He lifted his eyes to the sun, to see the top of the sphere suspended like a bloody nail clipping in the cleft of hills. It was at that moment that he heard a voice in a quiet sing-song tone, punctuated by the hollow plop of a stone tossed into the lake.

The child squatted on the rocky narrow beach, singing sweetly to himself and flipping small pebbles into the water. The man lowered the pistol and placed it back upon the rock. He walked along the bank to where the child was, the boy apparently unaware of his existence, unaware of anything but the song he sang and the plip-plop of the stones. Nonetheless, when the man was within some ten feet of him, the boy turned, smiled, and said "hello". The man commented on the lateness of the hour and the loneliness of the place, and he asked the child where he lived. "There," the boy pointed toward the wide up-running valley where the sun had dropped, "there, the other side of the lake." The boy scratched another pebble loose and tried to skip it, but it sank at once. "What were you doing with that gun?" The man looked away and cleared his throat, and then said "nothing. Something. At any rate I haerd you singing and it stopped me." The boy paused, a rock poised for the throw. "But I didn't stop you." He pointed with the stone. "See?"

On the rock, a dark shape lay slumped in the dimness of early nightfall and the man sat down in the grass. "I see," he said, the boy flinging the rock, then standing up and picking up a pair of black canvas sneakers. "I'm sorry," said the child. "I have to go home now." The boy moved off along the water's edge, taking up the song again, and the man was just on the edge of recalling the words to the song, almost as if he might have supplied the next verse himself. He lay back in the grass as the darkness came on and gazed at the infinity of stars in the sky above him until at last he closed his eyes, and the stars, the grass, the lake, the falling sun, the song were all one and he sank into all of it, cool and quiet as a stone.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 10:36 AM

LEJ -- Thank you. Beautiful.

You deserve massive amounts of money for writing like that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:24 PM

Likewise, LEJ. Beautifully said. Death is a doorway and Life is unavoidable, but it is possible to hide from it for awhile and I know any number of people who do that, myself included.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:32 PM

Fine story, LEJ -- what Amos said.
I am afraid that I am very often with Clinton on this, though maybe not a complete extinctionist. There does come a time for some when the obsession with the human race does ebb, and it comes to you that the planet will give a big sigh of relief when this experiment with hypercephalic apes exhausts itself. For people who think that all good things are wrapped up in human endeavour, this is repulsive; but even if you don't want the human race to go extinct, it does free you from much anthropomorphism. On the other hand, a pretty girl is like a melody. Can't explain either of them, pretty girls (bags of primate guts) or melodies (weird noises), the why of beauty.

A man loved a woman, but he died and went to heaven, and stood in front of God, and God told him what it all meant, and when he knew, he asked God if he might go back to earth to the woman he loved. And God said, why? and the man replied, I love the mystery of her face, better than Your explanation.

Jenny kiss'd me when we met,
Jumping from the chair she sat in;
Time, you thief, who love to get
Sweets into your list, put that in!
Say I'm weary, say I'm sad,
Say that health and wealth have miss'd me,
Say I'm growing old, but add,
Jenny kiss'd me.


yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 01:03 PM

Call me a skeptic, but I don't think that man talked to God. :-)

I used to think that the mystery embodied in a pretty girl was the ultimate life had to offer too, but I've changed my mind about that.

All good things don't come from people, just a lot of good things. A lot of good things come from Nature too. This planet would do fine without people, but then the people would just have to go somewhere else for a new embodiment...or not...as the case might be. Embodiments are neat to play around with, but they become uncomfortable with advancing age or adverse conditions. This makes physical life a very problematical business, whether you choose to have it on planet Earth or elsewhere. I personally think it takes a lot of guts to come here, and even more to stay.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:03 PM

And what it the beauty is behind a non-"pretty" facade, Peter? Only "pretty" girls? Pretty superficial, imo. Still love the poem, though and you'nyourwritin'!

LH, thanks for the compliment.

LEJ, I was too heart-stunned to post last night when I read your story. You should be getting mega amounts for what you pen, m'dear. It reminded me of a story I wrote when I was about 11 or 12, a poor, distant relative of yours in which a small boy, heir to a castle, is unaware that he has died. His coffin sits in the chapel surrounded by family and friends, weeping. He sits up and speaks to them, asks them why they are so sad, that he is right there. Eventually, after much searching, denial, etc. he finally figures out that he is really a wraith and understands and mirrors their sorrow.

Thank you for the beauty of your words.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:09 PM

It takes a great deal of courage to stay on the surface (Nietszche). yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 02:14 PM

Aw shit. Has the Prozac run out again?

Get outside and get some sunshine, people.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 03:44 PM

Aw, Cluin, chill, man. It's cool, dude.

Peter, the man was not speaking to God. He was speaking to a conceptual icon, animated version.    There is mucho differencia.

Beauty, too, and love, and many other things can be replaced in the mind with icons which miss their substance, just as gods often are.

Once you step out of the icon dictionary, the planet and even the people on it are worth rejoicing for, by and large.

In my humble opinion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 04:26 PM

He was speaking to somebody's idea of God, I'd say.

Look, a pretty girl is just a female human being. She has arms and legs like you do, and her hair gets greasy if she doesn't wash it. If you were a rabbit, you wouldn't think she was any more special than the average human male, and she isn't. In fact, the anatomical differences between the two are really fairly minor when you get right down to it, but if you want to worship them, go right ahead. God knows, I did for most of my life. Now I look at a beautiful woman and I see a female human being with probably just as many imperfections as myself. If I may quote B.B.King..."the thrill is gone".

And darned right it takes a great deal of courage to stay on the surface! I don't know anyone who's tough enough to do it fulltime.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 04:52 PM

Look, a pretty girl is just a female human being.

Sorry. That won't wash. I have known lots of people who were just female human beings, and plenty who were pretty girls. There is a qualitative difference, I am sure.

Maybe rabbits just aren't tuned in.

THere's an intellectual polysyllabic term for complex logic that looks sound and has no grounding in truth, and if I could remember the goddamn word I would use it on you, LH!! :>) Stay away from my bubble, thou pricker!

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 05:10 PM

"There is a qualitative difference"

That's as may be... but what qualities? Cause I'm certain that what ever you're interested in is most likely NOT what I'm interested in....

Doesn't make either one of us wrong... just different...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 05:17 PM

Ha! Ha! I thought that would raise some reactions. Believe me, Amos, if I could have heard my own comments about this at an earlier stage in my life I would have been utterly scandalized! I thought pretty girls were airlifted down out of heaven or something like that...

My God, the time and energy I squandered being obsessed with them! I coulda been a contendah! I coulda made sumpin' of myself!

It's all the fault of pretty girls, I say! Curses be upon them! They have filched my considerable potential and turned it into dross, merely by being what they are...a mundane but unexpectedly expensive book with a marvelous cover.

I wants me money back!!!! (spoken in the voice of Popeye) :-)

I think I'll be a girl next time just to get even. I've had enough.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:00 PM

Clinton:

Aside from seeing the plug pulled in general I dunno what interests you; but I need to make a distinction -- I see pretty girls in women of all types and ages. The pretty girl is the one that twinkles out at you even when she's 70 and wearing purple. In fact she's wearing purple and laughiong up her sleeve. There's a pretty girl. It's a female body being operated with full intent by a gal being who is enjoying it. That's my definition and I'm sticking to it!

LH, I am sorry to hear you are going to be a girl just to "get even"; it indicates to me you will be getting even on BOTH sides of the ledger and will probably find putting up with guys like you is pretty hard time, and balances the other direction out pretty well! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:01 PM

Oh, come on. It could be a Ming vase, or a haiku, something that strikes you as beautiful, a handsome man, a melody, a meadow in the spring wind. I happen to find beautiful women beautiful, so sue me. Leigh Hunt's poem about Jenny is about a moment in time, when he was kissed by a pretty girl. She was definitely imperfect (Carlyle's wife); and yet in that moment, there was something imperishable to him, made his life worthwhile. Is that an illusion: the imperishable part?

Delusional. And yet....

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:09 PM

No, goddammit. Not delusional. Just a little bit too true for the world, is all. VIVE la difference.


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM

Aw, you're too smart for me, Amos! :-) As for you, Peter, yes I appreciate your point...well taken. We all appreciate those magic moments, and I can remember a few of them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM

I knew you weren't THAT surfacy, Peter, but the further explanation makes it much clearer. Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 01:45 AM

The beings that boggle my mind is the little ones. The little girls with their round faces and satiny arms, and standing on practically four inch legs, the little boys with their wiry bodies with the swagger already built in and evident by age 10 months, the babies with arms and legs jointed just so, ending in absolutely perfect fingers and toes. I don't think they used to be so astonishingly beautiful.

Mind you, I still like to look at the bigger bodies all around me too. :)

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:25 PM

Yes, the "newness" and physical beauty of young children is pretty amazing allright. I really noticed it down in Trinidad where I was helping my friend David coach a bunch of the local kids for the Christmas pageant. They were really very beautiful. You see all that potential and wonder what is going to happen with it as the years go by.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:38 PM

It turns into me LH... that's what happens to all that potential!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 02:43 PM

Yeah, I know! That's what gives me chills, and probably led to my decision not to have children. :-)

I'm gonna see if you posted any photos on Mudcat, Clinton. I feel a need to see "the face of my enemy". (grin)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 03:30 PM

There are all kinds of pics of me all ove rthe net...

:-)

Or you just just hit - My Web Site -

heh

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 04:04 PM

Ah. Nice website. The page on meade is interesting. So, Ah sees yer one o' them there bearded varmints! Ah might've figgered that. Yer ilk usually has beards or else them droopy kind of mustaches that Mex banditos favors, but most generally the whole dang beard. Wal, if'n Ah ever gits down to Windsor area (not too likely) Ah'll listen in on a set or two at one o' yer gigs. Ah've heard thet Windsor is a hellhole, but Ah'm sure it beats Blind River, leastways...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Jul 03 - 04:26 PM

PM sent to cut down on the spam in this thread...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 07:49 AM

I think the word your looking for Amos is Bollox, and boy, there's been a lot of that on this thread.
There is only Now, and then Nothing.
No jam tomorrow never never land,
No self-obsessed wish fulfilling come again Carousel.
Just non-existence.
Yet am I sad?
No. Life is good, and the fact that I will make dust inevitable.
No life without death.
Leave these arrogant childish fantasies behind, accept the gift no mater how temporary and live in the moment.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST,DEATH
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:32 AM

I AM INVETIABLE, NOTHING ELSE IS. SO ENJOY WHAT YOU HAVE NOW BECAUSE ONLY I KNOW FOR CERTAIN WHAT COMES AFTER - THE REST IS FAITH.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:45 AM

Death, quiet down and learn how to spell. (The scythe, bring on the scythe)..... yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 08:46 AM

Dear loud mouth:

Being "invetiable", as you put it, is curable.

You're not half as scary as you knock yourself up to be.

And others have been there and know it as well as you, so chill out.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: GUEST,DEATH
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 09:41 AM

SORRY, SPELLING CHANGES ITS SO HARD TO KEEP TRACK...... I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SCARY (I'M JUST A MISUNDERSTOOD PUBLIC SERVICE) ITS YOU LOT THAT HAVE MADE ME SCARY. AFTER ALL I AM MEARLEY AN ANTHROPOMOPHIC PERSONIFICATION. I MEAN HAVE YOU EVER TRIED EATING A CURRY WITHOUT HAVING ANYWHERE TO PUT IT AND THAT BLOODY HORSE, THE HAY KEEPS FALLING OUT. IT MAKES A REAL MESS I'M TELLING YOU!

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: JenEllen
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:14 AM

Mearley Anthropomophic? YOU? Never! ---Perhaps a greater public service would be an adequate spell-checker?

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:20 AM

"...accept the gift no mater how temporary.
PP

And the gift, Pied Piper, is from what or whom? Doesn't 'gift' imply a giver?

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:29 AM

Pied Piper:

Well, I think you're in for a few surprises, perhaps. Of course, you tend to get what your beliefs call for, so if you deeply hold the dust theory to your bosom, not merely as an intellectual postulate, then you might find your next life is indeed being dust. But it's optional.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 10:41 AM

Mearley Anthro-Pomophic strode angrily through the morning mists toward the stable, slapping his high polished boots with a riding crop and muttering under his breath. Why couldn't people learnt o treat him like an aristocrat? After all, he was one, ny all rights -- indisputably!! How irksome!! All these "hiya"'s and "Yo, Mearly"'s just about drove him to distraction, and that's the truth....

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 11:23 AM

So you go to where you believe you go.
So if you don't believe in reincarnation you don't get reincarnated.
Now as the Buddha famously said "life is suffering".
He seems to have missed an easy root to escape the wheel of Karma.
It is difficult to explain that your glad to be alive, and that you appreciate the process that gave rise to it, without using teleologicaly-weighted words. Human language is full of anthropomorphic implications because it evolved socially and the belief in other people's psychological reality is a fundamental and intrinsic assumption. When we try to talk about inanimate objects like this it leads to problems.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: PeteBoom
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:02 PM

You can be whatever you want as far as I'm concerned. Just quit yelling. Yer giving me a headache... you wouldn't like it when I get a headache. I'm not nice at all...

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:56 PM

Wise point, PP. Them semantically-induced teleologies can be a real bear!! Flush them out!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 01:10 PM

Pied Piper - You are absolutely right..."There is only Now"!!!

And that Now will still be around after what you term as "death" occurs, and won't you be surprised. It's your body that's going to turn to dust, buddy, but for you there is no such easy way out.

The past happened, and the future will happen, but for all intents and purposes they are bothan illusion. Experientially there is only NOW. And it always shall be.

The only way to escape it is in deep sleep or a coma, so if it bugs you, take a short nap.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 08:06 AM

I like being alive, and endeavour to be as NOW as possible. As you rightly observed consciousness is necessary to be in the NOW; so why is death a conscious state, and a coma not? In order to be conscious you need a brain to do it, when the brain stops being conscious in coma or death or sleep there is no consciousness; simple.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 08:52 AM

I think I have found the bug, PP. "In order to be conscious you need a brain to do it" is analagous to a primitive person believing that the telephone   is where communication comes from. Easy mistake -- it's terrib;y complex, hard to aalyze as an object and when you connect to it it starts talking. Obviously, it's either an organic life form that speaks many languages, or the humans have invented very very advanced artificvial intelligence.

A brain is not a prerequisite to consciousness. It is more of an amplifier for operations in certain arenas...and a spam blocker!


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 09:31 AM

If you ever find that "easy root" you just let us know, y'hear? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 11:25 AM

What a completely fatuous analogy.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 11:29 AM

A scintillating analysis, PP -- as persuasive as almost anything -- well, almost. Your rebuttal is as fatuous, meretricious and specious, not to mention off the subject.

Anyway, you think brain cells can be a source of thought and a creator of communication, you go ahead with that and see what you find. I certainly do not want to dissuade you of your chosen beliefs.

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 03 - 08:45 PM

He's making a statement of pure faith, Amos, and people will defend their faith with utter tenacity, be assured! :-)

Amos is correct, PP. The brain is analagous to a radio transmitter, your ears and other senses are analogous to the antennas and receiving mechanisms, and your mouth and typing fingers are analogous to the speakers through which the program is beamed at the audience (other people, animals, and so on who happen to be aware of you). None of these is the original source of the message, however. The source of the message is pure intelligence (or awareness)...a completely non-physical form of energy. It existed prior to the body, it built the body cell by cell using magnificent intelligence, and it goes on existing long after the body ceases to be useful in any way whatsoever.

And Amos is the least fatuous person I've ever encountered on this forum.

You're just of a different religion, that's all, so you don't get it. Your religion has been called reductionism by some, mundanity by others, scientific objectivity by others...but be assured, it is just another religion with its own blind spots, taboos, and sweeping assumptions about existence. It's pure faith that determines your viewpoint, and faith is said (with little exaggeration) to be capable of moving mountains. Don't make the mistake of interpreting that literally, however, or you will miss the point entirely. The mountains that get moved are mountains of perception. When your faith changes significantly in some way...they move!

Separate a brain from the living intelligence that courses through it and you will have nothing but a soggy heap of rapidly decaying cells. The brain is NOT the source of the intelligence...it's the mechanism through which the intelligence communicates with and directs the rest of the physical body.

You've got the cart pulling the horse, son. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM

PP:

Just to resolve one of the confusions, about death versus a coma, both of these states describe the condition of a body. In either case, the owner of the body can be either conscious or less conscious. The degree depends on his/her native endowment of ability and how beat up he is with various tribulations. But even if he is in such a state as to be conscious only of blackness, he registers that. There are case histories on record of people coming back to operational consciousness after being in a coma and reporting on things that happened while they were out of connection. THere are similar reports for states clinically defined as death. Go figger. Point is that like the two simultaneous states of a telephone and its owner, consciousness and the state of the mechaniosm are apparently independent but related variables. They impact each other, for sure, but they aren't absolutely coupled.

Oh... "in my humble opinion".


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 12:18 PM

How do you explain Alzheimers Disease? Broken telephone or dissipation of the intellect?

I am not being fatuous. I am really interested.

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:41 PM

Y'all just way too deep for me.

I haven't croaked but I have been in a coma and I can say that whatever that state is, I don't remember jackshit about it. Matter of fact, I don't remember anything just prior to the event either. So it seems to me that if I had died, I'd be none the wiser unless some grand thing happens to announce it.

Most religions rely on that "grand moment"....the "Pearly Gates" and so on. For me though, even though I was clinically dead at several points, nothing happened. Maybe the Angel of Death just wasn't as quick as the Docs on that day or was off on a vacation or something..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:54 PM

Interestin' state of affairs indeed!! My opinion, FWIW, CLuin, is that the telephone analogy is very nice but way oversimplified; the actual pattern is more of a complex network communication with lots of variables coming together to make the 3D envisionment we consider consciousness.

Mind you I am not saying "unconsciousness" does not happen -- people do black out things under conditions of duress, drugs and the like, but in many cases this information is blacked out but available underneath the blackness. Same thing that happens when you remember some image or conversation from twenty years ago that you hadn't thought about since. Sometimes an unusual smel;l or sound can trigger it, for example. All of a sudden there's a picture you haven't looked at in twenty years, just as if you had remembered it all along.

So we're talking about a volatile thing here, not an on-or-off switch.

Spaw -- the cases where out-of-your-body events are reported in near-death experiences are a minority. The vast majority of cases either don't experience them or say nothing, thinking it was part of the dreamscape, or forgetitng th ewhole thing rapidly. I suspect -- FWIW -- that in the actual event, once you get over the surprise, you'll find yourself aware of things to a remarkable degree. If so, look me up and tell me about it! I'll try to tune in and hear ya!

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 03:16 PM

Uh, no offense here Amos old friend, but on the whole I'd prefer it was you who was trying to contact me if you get my drift...I'd just as soon hang in here as long as possible........Either way, let's look each other up the ol' kazoo.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 04:21 PM

It's a deal, pal. If I go first, expect to be woken up at midnight to the strains of "Let's Go Fishin'" played on the 36-string ectoplasm!

A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 11:53 PM

Hmmm--obviously you've never heard me play the ectoplasm, or you'd be more enthusiastic!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: An Open Letter to the Angel of Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 12:20 AM

Right on, guys! Count me in for the after-death get-togethers, where we can compare notes on mortality and suchlike, assuming we end up frequenting the same broadcasting band, so to speak. Then there's always the possibility of conspiring together to incarnate in another Earth life and be a royal pain in the butt to some of our erstwhile adversaries on this forum...yet again!

If it's any help, my mother had an out-of-body experience once when very ill and in the hospital. It convinced her that consciousness is not necessarily confined to one's physical body. But I know that second-hand anecdotes are only interesting to believers and simply an annoyance to confirmed skeptics, so why bother?

Either to believe or not believe in a spiritual concept requires faith...and plenty of it. You just gotta pick what you want to have faith in, that's all...and that's what everybody does, according to their own makeup and background. Then they defend that faith with all the passion, logic, and wit they can enlist in its defence.

Patriotism is like that too, not to mention political and religious allegiances of all kinds. In fact, I would contend that politics IS a religion, whether or not your political theory happens to incorporate "God".

- LH