Iranian siamese twins

Subject: Iranian siamese twins surely they were murdered
From: GUEST,Jim Clark london england
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 08:02 AM

I was realy sad to hear of the deaths yesterday of the two 29 year old siamese twin girls joined at the head....

Why o Why did those doctors who carried out their operation feel like playing God.....Surely it is nothing short of murder to kill two people in the name of medical experimention....Dont tell me the girls wanted the operation,that just isnt an excuse....If they could live 29 years with their condition if there was very little realistic chance of parting them safely then why werent they given psychological counseling and persuaded of all the good they could do with their lives,rather than the awful fate they suffered at the end of hi-tech ego manical butchers wielding surgical knives....

Such a shame...life is too precious to be thrown away just for the sake of a new media age freakshow...What do you all think ??

Regards.

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 08:29 AM

I think they were two intelligent women who made a conscious and reasoned decision regarding their quality of life. I think that surgery which is deemed too risky will continue and that in 25 years will no longer carry as high a risk. I think both of them were well aware of the risks and went into the surgery in the best possible frame of mind and also knew the outcome might result in death...and that is the risk they were willing to take. I think it is ridiculous to think anyone could counsel them as they were experts themselves on living the life they were given and presumptious to believe they could have been somehow "saved" through sharing their experiences and acting as role models or something. I think your personal moral values are your own...as were theirs. Together they decided and together they died. I think it is none of my business and none of yours either.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:03 AM

I did find it very sad but I'm with spaw. I believe they were perfectly capable of assessing the risks and weighing those up against the quality of life they had, and perhaps could have had. As such, I believe the surgeons were correct in attempting the operation.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Alba
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:22 AM

Im with Spaw also on this.
These were two Women, both had dreams which could not be fulfilled if they remanied joined. One wished to become a Lawyer and the other a Journalist.
I personally cannot begin to imagine what it would feel like to be in their situation.
These Two Brave Women made a choice in an attempt to gain independence. They were well aware of the risk factors involved but felt strongly enough about their plight to take those risks.
I have enormous respect for the Courage they both showed in going ahead with such a dangerous proceedure.
I was very sad to hear of their passing and truly wish that the Operation had been a success.
A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: maire-aine
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:22 AM

I believe these courageous women were very aware of the consequences of their decision. There are some things worth dying for, and independence is one of them. They were not "a unit", they were two intelligent women with goals of their own. They both agreed that it was worth the risk. I am saddened by their deaths, but I believe in life after death, so all is not lost. And perhaps others will benefit from what the doctors learned.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: saulgoldie
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:36 AM

I wished them well and was sad to hear that it had failed. But whenever I hear of one of these kinds of operations that require huge outlays of money and resources, I always wish that a fraction of that could be applied to some of the thousands and millions of people whose lives could be saved or significantly improved if the public will were there to support it.

I think there is a crisis in delivery of non-heroic medical care in the world and even in the mega-rich US, and this event only profoundly reminds me of that.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:47 AM

If the assessment of the risks given to the twins was correct and the surgeon was willing to conduct such a risky operation, then the twins were taking a decision to accept those risks and the possible consequences, and it should be their right to do so. However I have heard that the surgeons performing the operation gave them a 50-50 chance of survival and that during the operation they discovered the situation was more complicated than they thought due to the extent of the shared circulation. Surgical teams in other countries have turned down performing this procedure because they felt that the extent of the shared circulation made their chances of survival extremely low. I'm sure some of them have said they were exremely surprised that another team agreed to it.

If it turns out to be the case that the surgical team exaggerated the probablity of survival (or minimised the risks) in order that they might have the chance to perform groundbreaking surgery, then the twins were not really giving fully informed consent and that would be reprehensible.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Beccy
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:07 AM

Spaw- You said a mouthful. These women were highly intelligent and understood the risks involved. They were quoted as saying that they would rather risk death than live another year joined at the head. I think that makes pretty clear what their wishes were. May they rest in peace.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:01 AM

They had names. Ladan and Laleh Bijani. Laleh means "fragile flower".

All the stories I've seen about this emphasise that the doctors involved warned that the chances were at best 50/50, and advised against it. But they decided for themselves to take the risk, and they had the right to do so, and good reason to do so.

The hope of freedom is something worth risking dying for sometimes. That's called heroism.

The criticism of doctors for playing God is of where they are making the decisions where they have no right to do so. Gven that there was a fiughtin cahnce of survival, to refuse the clear wish of Ladan and Laleh to take that chance would have been doing exactly that, "making the decisions where they have no right to do so"

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Red and White Rabbit
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:24 PM

Ladan and Laleh - you were bright and brave. The world is less rich because of you passing but may we have all learnt something from your life and from your death - the fact that we can discuss the rights or wrongs here shows that we are all willing to learn

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 12:27 PM

Ditto Spaw. I can't say I would have been courageous enough to make such a choice.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 03:02 PM

Well, well, well. Two women who made a choice to do something knowing the risks and were willing to bear the consequences of their decision. Quite unusual in this day and age!

Medical experimentation? What if Barney Clark and others that followed refused to have heart transplants? Point is that there are always pioneers in any endeavor. They have made the frightful decision that their life is no longe fulfilling and that It's through these brave souls that advancements are made. I was praying for them all the way. My beef isn't with their medical team, it's with the Great Spirit who seems to be asleep at the switch right now. Why weren't we allowed this one bright, small miracle of their thriving survival? Why was it not possible to let them survive, yet very possible to let suicide bombers to wreck their havoc on us? I will have many discussions and prayers about this.

Chapter two.
It seems as their adopted father and uncle ( who are doctors )advised the women against the operation. Now they may sue the medical team who carried out the women's wishes. And so it goes...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 07:52 PM

"Why was it not possible to let them survive, yet very possible to let suicide bombers to wreck their havoc on us?"

...because these are HUMAN acts and consequences, totally dependant on HUMAN decisions and abilties.

I still wonder when I read of a plane crash with 2 survivors out of 200 saying "God was with us" ...right...sure...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 09:19 PM

What God has put together...let no man put asunder.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:36 PM

so...God was happy with the many separations that did work?....or was just not paying attention?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:00 PM

Let's leave Him up to His devices, and leave our own to our own....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 11:42 PM

It's days like today that one doesn't mind people's proclivity for supposing "God" is only male.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:45 AM

I was walking down the sreet the other day and saw 2 siamese twins fighting so I tried to separate them. It was a thankless task. They were fighting because the other one wanted to drive. They ultimately solved it by moving to England-------and everything turned out just great.------------------So, Jim Clark, if you see them over there, please, give 'em both my love.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Cluin
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 02:22 AM

Were they Iranian or Siamese then?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 05:51 AM

Sorry,but I cannot agree that killing these two unique humman beings was the right thing to do just because they wished to live seperate lives....I would love to have decent eyesight,but if any surgeon was foolish enough to kill me in the process of trying to give me this,then surely that would be something qiute wrong..
The two girls were I believe perfectly healthy apart from having suffered the terrible misfortune of being born joined at the head..they were able to get around and think independantly.the news reports showed them running around and praying together no medic had the right to take their lives away...They might not have been able to have all they wished for in life,then none of us can,but they most likely had many years ahead of them of experiencing the joyous things in life...29 years must surely be enough time to become accustomed to a situation....

If you believe what was done to these poor young women was right..Then surely you no doubt also believe all people born with physiological or mental differences should be the subject of euthanasia like medical experimentation....There was nothing to be gained in trying to seperate these twins...no doubt their are siamese twins who can be seperated by virtue that they are not joined by the most vital organ of their being,but these were not that type....

It says a lot about the medical ethics of Singapore that this operation was allowed to happen at all and that it did not take place in the west where surely such an impossible procedure would not have taken been sanctioned for obvious fear of harming the patients...I feel sure the founder of Singapore and London zoo Sir Stamford Raffles (wh the Raffles hospital was named after) would not have felt proud to have had his name put to this misadventure...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:52 AM

Mr. Clark.......Please post your e-mail address as many of us are obviously in need of your services. For instance, right now I am considering taking a piss but I feel I need to check it out with you first. Now that I have given up my right to self-determination, I expect you to be on hand to make any and all decisions for me. Perhaps you could publish a few guidelines which would make it easier for both of us. For instance, it is okay to shit twice a day but anything above and beyond that I need to check out with you.

I apologize for already eating breakfast and having some coffee. Can you get back to me though ASAP? I take Lasix and have to piss like a race horse right now and since you are the Almighty One, Knower of All Things, and Grand PooBah of Life Functions, this is a decision falling under your domain.

Ya' know, I can't help but notice your name.....Jim Clark. Another Jim Clark was a hero of mine, but I am sure you don't approve of him at all. He risk his life almost daily for no other reason than to go fast in cars. The only thing he had to offer to you I guess was entertainment value but for many of us he was a remarkable man, an artist and craftsman without peer. He died 35 years ago driving an F2 car in the rain in a practice at Hockenheim. I'm sure you believe he wasted his life.....but it was his life, his choice. You don't get that do you? No....I didn't think so...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 07:52 AM

It's interesting to read these letters, which are reminiscent of the ones that flew when Dr Christian Barnaard performed the first heart transplant in Groote Schur in South Africa. Then, too, the chances of survival were tiny, yet patients pleaded for the chance to try. Now this is almost a standard procedure.

Of course we should do other things first: for instance, blast Africa with pro-condom and pro-safe-sex broadcasts, to override the puritanical attitudes that can lead to people catching the sickness, and force the big pharma companies to supply their drugs cheaply enough to cure the pandemic.

We should have worldwide socialised medicine - and worldwide programmes to stop people getting sick, and influence people to eat and exercise well.

I'd better stop there...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 08:01 AM

29 years is also enough time to make up one's mind about whether one wants to continue living the same way. It was THEIR decision. From what I read on this, they had to convince the doctors to take the risk - NOT the other way around.

The operation wouldn't have been done in the west, not out of fear of harming the patients so much as the ensuing law suit. We have a tendency to decide what's right for everybody and not let them choose for themselves.

They knew what their lives were like. They weighed the risks: separate lives vs death. They decided, not other people who thought they knew better and were more right. THEY decided.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:04 AM

If they'd been told that the chances of it coming off successfully were great, and there was nothing to worry about, then it'd be right to say that they'd been tricked into agreeing,and that there wasn't informed consent. But that does not appear to have been the case. Ladan and Laleh knew what was involved, it appears, and they chose to take that risk.

Incidentally, I note the implicatioin from a few people that the level of medicine in a Singapore Hospital can't possibly be as good as "in the west". A curious assumption.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:48 AM

Ya know, every story I saw on this before and after, mentioned that the expected chances were 50/50 at best. Seems to me they decided that the chance to develop as two individual persons warranted taking the 1 in 2 chance.   

There comes a time when the person must make a decision and run with it. Not the government, not some other well-meaning institution. The desire and drive to be beholding to no man/person/government was rather a strong sentiment at one time in the UK and the States. Seems to me that more folk could use a lesson in that these days.

These young women made their decision, insisted against the "experts", and agreed that the chance of living as individuals outweighed the price of death. I hope they find their peace.

Pete

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 10:56 AM

No one would blame the girls for wishing to be able to be seperated,but then we are talking about Iran a country who's notorious regime has sought to control the mind of its population for generations...I would dare say the countries religious doctrines had more than a small part to play in making the minds of these girls who no doubt only sought to be the same as all others they knew in a society where being different or individual condition let alone A physical deformity can be a life threatening condition.....So some either misguided or just plain glory seeking members of the medical profession offer then a way out of their predicament and by the way they mention to them theirs only a fifty fifty chance of surviving the operation (perhaps they should have said cat in hells chance)Yes of course they made their minds up for themselves,like everybody in such shining examples of liberal thinking nations like Iran equips its population to....

Get real all those who confuse freedom of expression with being offered a lethal injection...theres nothing free about being dead before your time...Life is far too sweet,and should be cherished whilst the possiblity of enjoying one more moment of it exists...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:02 AM

Ummm, Jim? Could you point us to where you're getting your information that "some either misguided or just plain glory seeking members of the medical profession offer then a way out of their predicament", because that runs counter to the stories I read from Reuters and other sources.

Just curious.

Pete

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:18 AM

Of course all people in Iran are incapable of making informed choices... I'm sure I read that they hadn't lived in Iran since they were very small anyway.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:19 AM

So you believe all you read in the press..Then you'll also believe doctors cure most of their patients another bit of wishful thinking ..However they print it..Life is sweeter than death,and a cat in hells chance is a cat in hells chance...

JC..

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: greg stephens
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:21 AM

Jim, how do you know Sir Stamford Raffles is on your side in this one?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:24 AM

Because he wasnt obsessed with the notion that death is better than life which is something of an Islamic premise...

But I cant claim to have met Stamford....

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:24 AM

But is life in which you are extremely unhappy and unfulfilled better than a small chance of life where you believe you will be very happy and fulfilled? At what level of chance/risk does the procedure become unacceptable and how does that relate to the level of suffering? If someone told you you had a choice of being joined forever at the head to some other person, or you could flip a coin and either go free or die, what choice would you make? And maybe it doesnt matter what choice you would make as long as you can see that other people might reasonably make a different choice. These things are never a cut and dried black and white issue.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:28 AM

I recognize this argument! Its a conspiracy right? It involves the Queen, the Pope, the Rothechildes and the Colonel before he went tets up, right? Isn't that the same logic we just had with the existance of Jesus thread?

Ya know what? I think it is YOUR fault those two died. Yours and yours alone. YOU were one of the murdering doctors that convinced them to have the surgery and then got the media to LIE.

I'm done here then.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:28 AM

Cut and dried how very apt a term for what was done to these girls who probably had many years of life ahead of them until false hope stole it all away...

JC...

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:35 AM

I'll tell you what I do know. Folks like Jim, with their paternalistic, and jingoistic, attitudes cause a great deal of problem in the area of human relationships. One might have a discussion of whether risk is worth the potential gain/loss on any given subject. But in the end it comes down to the individual choice made. If Jim were able to produce one shred of evidence that these young women were unfairly forced or coerced, we might have something to talk about. But he cannot. Everything I have read and watched showed me two intelligent, faithful, and powerfully brave young women. They knew the odds and chose to live and die bravely. How can one do anything but honor their choices and their lives?

I salute these two women. May God be good to them.

Mick

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:49 AM

Jim:

You keep casting this incident in the context of doctors killing the girls. I take exception to that characterization. If you have any evidence that the medics involved did anything short of their best I'd like to hear it. They were not exercising the right to kill anyone and implying that is a really piss-poor use of rhetorical device. Who do you think had any intent to kill either of them? On the face of it that is an absurd proposition, it seems to me.


A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:01 PM

Okay Folks.......Obviously this has reached "troll" status....intentional or otherwise. JC ain't goin' to produce anything but opinion because there are no facts to support his position. Congrats Jim....Have it your way.....and I can't wait any longer to take a piss so stand aside...or not (preferably).

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 12:22 PM

I would suggest that "JC" find someone willing to handcuff themselves to him for at least 24 hours and it has to be in such a way that they cannot look directly at one another, even better if upper mobility is severely limited, while he takes a piss, tries to make love to his SO, wipes his arse, gets comfortable in bed, drives a car, plays an instrument, goes to venues he likes, that they aren't interested in, etc. Oh, and I wouldn't use those initials if I were him, since the original "JC" would have none of his unkindly judgement.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:25 PM

But you've got to take into account the self-evident fact that no Iranian, and indeed no Muslim, can possibly be considered able to take any decisions for themselves. The same no doubt applies to various other categories of people.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 11:44 PM

Jim,

Just try to think of it as a 14,869 trimester abortion. ((***BIG SMILE***))

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: GUEST,Jim Clark..London.England
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 05:38 AM

How about discussing this issue without resorting to personal insult...What happened to these girls was attrocious in the full gaze of the world media...One day they had life,and one day they didnt..of course being conjoned at the head is just about as awful a fate as anyone could wish for,but as has been stated despite all this they appeared to be intelligient happy individuals who had even graduated in law so life held many opportunities for them...These two girls who had managed to get through 29 years needed false hope to shatter any acceptance of their situation they had achieved like a bullet in the brain..What they were subjected to was even more brutal...

This was not a Christian Barnard pioneering life saving operation..It was a reckless waste of two lives..Many live with debilitating physical deformity(one of the most famous severely disabled being Stephen Hawkins),but given help to see the bigger,brighter picture of what can be achieved in the land of the living,most I can assure you will opt for life....These girls needed someone to remind them of all the good in their lives,not someone to offer an impossible operation..and a promise of meeting Allah in the holy land...

I have never tried to speak for anybody else on this matter ,but myself. I am merely expressing my own opinions so please concentrate on the discussion in hand and desist from turning this into a burn Jim Clark at the stake for simply stating that believe the promise of life over death must surely be one I would opt for...

JC....

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:02 AM

"...one I would opt for..." Implying that some people are allowed to choose, but others aren't to be permitted that liberty.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:11 AM

So what's to discuss?

You gave your opinion and reasons.....Many of us gave our opinion and reasons. You think many of us are full of shit......Many of us think you are full of shit. We're now left with nothing but shit.

Next.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:33 AM

Jim, you began one of your posts with the word "sorry" and I thought you might be going to own up to being a spoilt brat, oblivious to the fact that for a majority of people on this planet life is anything but sweet.

If the Iranian twins "appeared" to be happy, intelligent, etc, in what sense do they appear not to have made up their own minds about the operation? Your stuff about counselling is pious crap. As Spaw or someone suggested, who is going to be arrogant enough to guide intelligent people in that situation on how to face up to it (apart from you, I mean)? Your suggestion of baleful Islamic influence on their decision is ignorant drivel.

Life is indeed precious, but it is also fragile and comes with no guarantees. It can also be misery from beginning to end and if someone living such as life wanted to cut their losses (I dib't suggest that the Iranians did) what the hell business is it of yours? Try reminding yourself once in a while that there are parts of the world in which life expectancy is little more than 29 anyway. What are you doing about that?

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:21 AM

This is beginning to remind me of the South Park episode where the nurse has her dead conjoined twin's foetus attached to the side of her head; except in that there was one wise person (Kyle) and a whole townful of well-intentioned but hysterical idiots.

Oh, and Jim: if you ever do consider surgery to correct your eyesight, remember that every anaesthetic has a small but definite risk of fatality.

Steve

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: JenEllen
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:39 AM

Art, for your birthday, you can buy me a new keyboard....LMAO and spit tea evuh'whare

I have to agree with kat's they cannot look directly at one another, even better if upper mobility is severely limited, while he takes a piss, tries to make love to his SO, wipes his arse, gets comfortable in bed, drives a car, plays an instrument, goes to venues he likes, that they aren't interested in, etc.

Have none of you ever HAD sisters? Holy shit. I've been with mine since her birth, and the thought of THOSE 29 years being stuck together 24-7 would have driven me stark raving mad. Not only do you have to do things with them, but you have a witness to everything you've done and thought. Repellant. These women probably did just as ALL sisters do, and I'll bet there were plenty of nights spent in girlie-talk, and talking about what the future would bring for them, and I'll bet that more than once, death entered the picture (these ladies weren't stupid).

If you have to pull God into this (WHHHHHHY do people always have to pull gods into this?) then perhaps this episode was a lesson for YOU. Leave Ladan and Laleh alone. Get off your sorry ass and go hug your brothers and sisters, and count your blessings and thank your god for not seeing fit to conjoin the two of you.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:47 AM

Amen. Sistuh.

A

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 12:28 PM

Jim, unless I misunderstood the following statement (context is sometimes difficult to assess here), I think it points out what your statements imply to me:

....These girls needed someone to remind them of all the good in their lives,not someone to offer an impossible operation..and a promise of meeting Allah in the holy land...

That statement implied to me that you were almost sneering at the faith that these women had in their God. But that was the basis, it seems to me, of their decision. Their absolute belief in their afterlife and redemption allowed them accept the risk as being not much of a risk at all. You seem to imply that that is ridiculous and makes their value system foolish. The only thing that is important is living in this world. That is why you are coming off the way you are here. Many of us do not fear death, in fact we consider it as just one more waypoint in the journey. Death is only a consideration as to how we live. It is but one more factor to weigh.

I would hope that I would be as fearless, and faithful, to my beliefs the next time I am staring into the breach. I have often said that I see heroes every day. These two women were very heroic. God be good to them.

Live your life by your values, sir. Just don't condemn others who do the same.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: PeteBoom
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 01:06 PM

Mick - yer wasting words. Our JC here has all the answers. He reminds me of one who has never faced death - his own or anyone close to him. His personal prejudices and ill-education come shining thru in this thread.

The true path of Islam embraces death no more than that of Christian, Jewish, Taoist or any other religion I can think of. There are evil ones who will wrap themselves in sheep's clothing and twist words to their own end. That is human nature. In the end they are found out and served up, cooked in their own hate.

If you claim to embrace life, you must also embrace death. If you fear one you must fear the other. Death and life are part of the balance of the universe. If you claim to embrace one and fear the other then you are not following the path to its logical conclusion. You are either deceiving yourself as to the meaning, or, you are a hypocrite and a liar.   

Stand Fast.

Subject: RE: Iranian siamese twins
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 02:25 PM

"I,was,realy[sic],sad,to,hear,of,the,deaths,yesterday
of,the,two,29,year,old,siamese,twin,girls,joined,
at,the,head"
I,was,also,sad,to,hear,of,their,deaths,as,I'm,sure
everyone,else,here,was,
BUT,,they,were,NOT,girls,they,were,well,educated,adults.
They,had,a,risky,operation,[as,thousands,of,others,do
every,day].
Sadly,it,did,not,work,but,the,doctors,were,highly,trained
and,I'm,sure,they,did,their,best.
Have,you,thought,of,the,problems,that,these,two,would,
face,as,they,entered,middle/old,age[mobility,problems,etc]?