BS: EU Liars!

Subject: BS: EU Liars!
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:38 PM

Why do all British Governments lie to us about Europe? Tony Blair's government, deceitful as all governments before it since the Fat Grocer took us into the "Common Market", is going to sign-up to the new constitution that Giscard d'Estang's clique is putting the finishing touches to right now, without asking whether or not you want to be signed up to it. And once signed up, there'll be no getting out of it.

• The Fat Grocer is still lying about the events surrounding our joining back in the early 70s. "We said then that joining was the first step to political integration", he says. Liar! The country thought it was joining a common market, not buying a one-way ticket to a United States of Europe. Heath, the Fat Grocer, is responsible for the near-death of British fishing fleet, which was sacrificed on the altar of the Spanish fleet as a sweetener for our entry.
• Wilson lied at the time of the referendum, saying, in a leaflet sent to every British home, "There was a threat to employment in Britain from the movement in the Common Market towards an Economic and Monetary Union. This could have forced us to accept fixed exchange rates for the pound, restricting industrial growth and so putting jobs at risk. This threat has been removed." Liar! EMU is now a reality for the poor unfortunates who joined the euro in the first wave.
• The Thatcher and Major governments signed more and more European treaties, enmeshing us further and further into the spider's web, all the time saying (I paraphrase), "There's no threat to sovereignty. Westminster rules OK." Liars!
• Peter Hain, until recently our man at the Convention drawing up a new European Constitution, has said there is no need to have a referendum on whether or not Britain should sign up to the constitution, because "it's not a fundamental change, only a tidying-up exercise". Liar! This, by the way, is the same Peter Hain who, in his book, "Ayes to the Left" (1995), described the euro as "economically disastrous and politically dangerous", and also asked "Why should monetary policy be taken out of democratic control and left to bankers?". A hypocrite and a liar. Peter Hain sells the pass for a seat at the cabinet table!
• This deceitful government, led by the arch-deceiver, Tony Blair, declines to allow the public a referendum on the proposed European Constitution. "Not a major issue", it says. Liar. Referendums have been offered for the decision to join the euro; were offered to the Scots and Welsh before the constitutional changes of devolution; to the Northern Irish; even for people in such places as Hartlepool to choose whether or not they wanted a Mayor. But not for a major change in constitution such as Giscard's, which explicitly (amongst many other things) gives Brussels preëminence over Westminster.

Yeah, well... It's fear, isn't it? They're all afraid that if they told us the truth we'd rebel.

Hands up those of you who knew that a new constitution was proposed for Europe. Brussels' own research reveals that 61 per cent of Europe's citizens have not even heard of the convention charged with drawing up a constitution in their name. The latest polling from the European Commission's 'Eurobarometer' shows that, across the board, 63 per cent of people reply 'don't know', when asked about Giscard's "historic" work. Almost three quarters are unaware that a new EU constitution was due to be completed this year.

The Laeken declaration, which brought the European Convention's 16-month talking-shop, just completed, into existence, highlighted Europe's democratic deficit as a major challenge. "Within the union, the European institutions must be brought closer to its citizens," declared the EU's great and good in December 2001. "They feel that deals are all too often cut out of their sight and they want better democratic scrutiny." And the result is more democracy? more accountability? more transparent decision making? Um.... No. The result is a new European Constitution. Giscard was asked to come up with some ideas to make the EU more democratic, but came up with an EU constitution instead. "Buggair democracy. Zese ignorant peasants are chiens. Bow down, peasants, je suis Giscard d'Estaing. Je demande my place in 'istory!"

Wake up, Britain! You seem to be sleepwalking into the mire of undemocratic, elitist, bureaucratic corruption that is Europe today.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 01:41 PM

Ah, okay....

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Jul 03 - 10:17 PM

Ok first get your army out of Scotland, next Wales and last N Iron, then the rest of Europe might be sorry to see you gone. Me, I could care less!

EOM

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:01 AM

Keep taking the tabloids.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 03:19 AM

Yet more corruption now uncovered. how much must go unreported?
It just stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 01:31 PM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar: hey, clever pun. I haven't heard that one before. But it's normal to meet an argument with a counter-argument if you don't agree with it. And you haven't quite done that, have you?

sorefingers: that you could care less implies that you do care a bit. Do, please, tell us how much. As for me, I could not care less whether the rest of Europe will regret or rejoice at Britain's departure. This bit about the army: Just as the EU is my hobby-horse, I gather that's yours, is it? I've got a good idea -- why don't you start your own thread about it?

Keith: it does, indeed, stink.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:00 PM

Actually, Ringer, yours is opinion not argument. You seem to consider that all these people were lying for their own ends. They may have been deluded, mistaken or just plain stupid.

If so many UK political leaders have got away with so much lying perhaps we need somebody else to keep an eye on them. Like the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 04:25 PM

Heck, I don't even live in the EU and I knew about the drafting of a new consitution; it's even been in the news HERE. All the religious fanatics are up in arms because the EU doesn't want to enshrine Christianity in the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:36 PM

Personally I'd go for it !!! And I speak as one who has changed thier minds since the 70's.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 03 - 06:40 PM

I was always against them allowing England in anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 06:51 AM

Arguing against the best part of 30 years of misrepresentation of the European Community/Union in the British press would call for a rather long post - and on Europe, even most of the broadsheets adopt tabloid tone and content.

The Conservative line used to be that referenda were a foreign abomination alien to the strictly parliamentary British constitutional system (though the absence of a written constitution makes any discussion of constitutional issues in the UK a rather imprecise science, traditionally left to that man of the people Lord whatever Norman St John Stevas calls himself now). It was only desperation at the trend towards European integration that pushed the Conservatives to call for referenda as a way of blocking further British involvement in the process.

I do believe that major constitutional developments should be validated by referendum. The problem is that public opinion on Europe in Britain is so warped by the distorted news reporting of the not-even-British-owned "mainstream" press that no Government would take a chance on calling a referendum on a European issue. If some British politicians are running scared and prefer to minimise what is happening in the EU, that's because they have taken turns at misrepresenting the EU for cynical advantage in national politics. Now they are paying the price and forced to sit on their hands. Likewise Blair has painted himself into a corner on the Euro.

The European 'democratic deficit' is greatly overstated. The European Parliament has been directly elected for a couple of decades now and has real power over both budgets and policy content. The other branch of the legislature, the Council, brings together the elected governments of the Member States with a voting system which is complex but designed to ensure an appropriate measure of representativeness. For an evolving polity like the EU, that's a pretty good structure which has obvious parallels to the US system, with the House representing the population directly and the Senate representing States. Now exactly whom does the democratically elected (Seems to be a mistake here? -Ed.) British House of Lords represent?

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:07 AM

That'll stitch up your fox hunting!

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:23 AM

Are there any other countries in Europe where you have to have a licence to sing?

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 07:42 AM

This thread is morphing into the UK equivalent of all the "I dont hate America, but..." threads! What fun!

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Ringer
Date: 11 Jul 03 - 10:46 AM

That's better -- something more than 1-liners.

If so many UK political leaders have got away with so much lying perhaps we need somebody else to keep an eye on them. Like the EU? That's a good idea. The EU is world-renowned as a model of corruption probity, so their overlordship of UK politicians, as proposed in Giscard's new constitution, would fill everyone with new confidence and give a real filip to UK public life. Or not.

McGrath: England is not "in", but Britain is.

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar: your discounting tabloid opinions is akin to my discounting all your opinions because you're Irish (I assume -- if you're Chinese, please forgive me). You have to address the issues! Just because the Sun says the world is round doesn't mean that it's flat. Equally, unless you can show errors in their opinions or arguments, that many of the UK nationals are not owned by Britons is irrelevant. Once again, you have to address the issues!

The Tories are not necessarily inconsistent in once having abjured referendums but now calling for one. This government has changed the rules by happily having referendums on things from devolution (although, oddly enough, they didn't ask me my opinion on the United Kingdom being broken up), through to whether mayors were a good thing, and they've promised a referendum on joining the euro. It could be that the Tories are merely adjusting their game to this new playing field. On the other hand, given that referendums are now bandied about so freely, the Tories, like me, are possibly only in favour of this referendum because they don't believe the British people (sorry -- I begin to sound like the Daily Mail) would be so cretinous as to vote for Giscard's constitution. However, I believe that the cards are so stacked that if one EU-member does not ratify it, it falls; given that several nations have promised their citizens referendums and others might yet allow them, I think it quite probable that at least one will fail to ratify it. But it doesn't do to be complacent.

If you think the "democratic deficit" is over-stated, I disagree. The third member of the EU's triumvirate, which you don't mention, is the Commission. Commissioners are not elected, they are appointed. The Commission initiates legislation which it passes to the Council and the Parliament for rubber-stamping. What's democratic about that? The democratically-elected Parliament cannot even initiate legislation! Also, the Commission seems to be the seat of much of the corruption I so excoriate. In 1999 all Commissioners were forced to resign, along with their President, Jaques Santer, because the extent of their venality became apparent. The current Commission is currently embroiled in corruption audits. Neil Kinnock, anti-corruption supremo, is out of his depth, and favours sacking whistle-blowers rather than investigating their claims. This is the Neil Kinnock that the British electorate considered inferior to John Major (imagine it!) in 1992. As to the House of Lords: in this context it is irrelevant (insert your own jokes here): I don't base my arguments against a federal EU on a claim that Britain's institutions are perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:41 AM

England is not "in", but Britain is.

If England is not in Europe, where the hell is it?

And strictly speaking there ain't no such country as "Britain". There's an island of that name, which is also referred to as Great Britain (to distinguish it from Lesser Britain, or Brittany). Of course, like England it is not in itself a member of the European Union, but which is currently part of a political unit known as the United Kingdom, which is.

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 11:47 AM

Haven't you folks learned yet that you can only tell when a politician is lying is when his/her mouth is moving?

Sheesh, us colonials learned that about 1493!

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:30 PM

What really angers me is the way the UK keeps toying with the idea of joing the Euro. They say they are waiting to see how things will develop and if someday it will prove to be of financial gain, then they will reconsider joining. Give them an ultimatum I say and above all, give them a time limit. If they can`t make up their minds by say 2005, then they`re out for good. I fail to see what good they would do us anyway. Let them live with their antiquated pound, we can do nicely without them.

JB

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 12:41 PM

Like the UN the EEC is a bastard idea that because of human nature will fail. Anyone see how much the Italians and Germans love each other this week?

Subject: RE: BS: EU Liars!
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Jul 03 - 07:34 PM

Join - end of story.