BS: It's a man's world !

Subject: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:35 AM

As I sat in my local yesterday it struck me, for the 1,000th time, how lucky men are that they can go out to public places like bars and pubs on their own. I consider myself an independent woman, but I am incapable of doing this, and it really annoys me that I allow some social rule that "women shouldn't go to a bar on their own" to hold me back.

Have any mudcatters ( male or female ) got any possible solutions to this ? I will go to an eating-place on my own, as long as it's not too late at night and as long as I have something to read.

Perhaps there are some parts of the world where it's fine for a woman to go out alone ? If so, where ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:38 AM

I don't think any of my sisters ever worried about being alone when they went to a bar or club - and I *know* my neices don't. Now my *MOTHER* wouldn't have... but her bar days were 5 decades ago!

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:43 AM

Good, I am glad you think it's an outdated idea. Even though, for me it's not. I am British, so maybe that's part of it ? Maybe I have to go to your part of the world, Mario ! Are we talking about the USA ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:46 AM

yup...

And I suspect that 'British' versus 'US' has a *lot* to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM

This may be going off the point a bit, but does that perhaps indicate that North American women are more liberated than us Brits ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Peg
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 10:56 AM

I go to bars alone in the UK and it does not seem to be a problem. But I am usually okay about talking to a stranger, even if they are chatting me up. You can usually diffuse the situation, unless they are completely drunk or total assholes. I find American men do not take a hint quite so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

as I understand it - the UK has a long, long tradition of women not even being allowed in some pubs, clubs, etc. That alone could have a lot to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

Are you North American, Peg ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

Good point Mario

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,catsphiddle sans biscuit
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:32 AM

Im British and don't have a problem going to a bar or pub on my own. I don't mind going out to places to eat on my own either. There are some places I won't go to by myself but that is a safety issue but on the whole I have never had a problem.

Khatt

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:39 AM

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:42 AM

Good on you Khatt. Hopefully this thread will prove I am the only remaining person with this particular hang up and I can party on down on my own from now on !

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:46 AM

There used to be "ladies bars" in many pubs. I'm not sure if this was to protect the ladies or the gentlemen.

I think this varies from pub to pub, and even from time to time - the same pub can be a completely different environment at different times of the day.

Barring women from pubs or bars, either formally or in practice, is hardly a tradition confined to the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 11:49 AM

I used to go out to bars alone all the time. I don't anymore because I don't have to, and because I don't go to bars like I did when I was in college.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:00 PM

some parts of this issue are 'social rules' and what the bar allows, and some are the safety question...is it safe getting to and from the bar! Like it or not, liberated or not, women still need to cope with the fact that some men are dangerous...and that makes me sad and angry. I'd hope that ANY woman anywhere would find safe and comfortable ways to go out and socialize and enjoy herself without being either judged or endangered.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Malcy
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:03 PM

Good point Bill. Now, going by the answers above one might think that it's easy for a woman to go to bars on her own. If that's so why do I rarely see that ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:09 PM

"how lucky men are that they can go out to public places like bars and pubs on their own"

Is this for real? Men aren't the only ones by a long shot!

Kelly, if you want to go, GO! The one holding you back is yourself. If you want to ease into the idea, try a movie by yourself or hit the local pub when there's a big game on. Soon you'll discover what fun it is to get there when you want to get there and go home when you want to go home.

So go!

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:22 PM

Thanks Nicole. Yes, it is for real !

Just out of curiosity what nationality are you Nicole ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: NicoleC
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 12:48 PM

I'm in the US, Kelly. But for the record, I'm gone to bars in Scotland and Germany, and no one looked at me any stranger than they normally do to tourists :)

BillD is right -- you need to be safe about where you choose to go. But dangerous men also lurk in parking lots of grocery stores at night. The issue is less about what kind of place you are going are more about choosing to exercise safe(r) habits, whether you are going to a pub or getting on the train.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Peg
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 01:00 PM

yup I am American.
peg

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 01:15 PM

and there are a few bars that for one reason or another I wouldn't go into alone - in fact there are a number I wouldn't voluntarily enter under ANY circumstances!!!! But they are also in neighborhoods I prefer to stay a goodly number of miles from in the first case.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Cheeky
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 01:21 PM

Oh, like the world famous chain of pubs, which has its headquarters in Scotland " The Stab Inn" ?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: sian, west wales
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 03:31 PM

Well, I have a local that I could go to on my own - I'm likely to know someone who's in - but I prefer not to. (I probably wouldn't get the required 'quiet drink' anyway; some of the guys think that if you're on your own, you want to be an audience for their boring stories!) There are many pubs in town which I wouldn't go into on my own at night; might do during the day. And I would be loath to go into a strange pub in a strange town at night.

There may also be a rural/urban British thing as well. I live in a small market town and a single female drinking on her own isn't 'done', really.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 04:40 PM

Solo visits to the pub aside, I believe US women are more liberated than UK women. Perhaps we haven't had as many centuries of suppression to battle as have our UK sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:04 PM

"I believe US women are more liberated than UK women" No doubt some are, some aren't. And the same would be true if the reverse claim were to be made.

Perhaps we haven't had as many centuries of suppression to battle as have our UK sisters. Strictly speaking no one has centuries of oppression - people only live one life at a time. I know what the expression means, but the figure of speech can be a trap.

Even as a figure of speech, I'd be inclined to doubt if there's any great difference of that sort. Strikes me there's been enough oppression around on both sides of the Atlantic. And refusal to accept it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:04 PM

I am glad that a lot of you think this is a silly idea, although to me it's very real. Would the women that go into bars alone go into a busy place on a Saturday night, all dressed up ? I am asking this because to me it's very different from going in for a quick coke at lunch time.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:19 PM

Kelly, Would a man go in to a place on a Saturday night all dressed up? It depends on the man. Some folks are more inclined to dress up, others it is not an issue. I guess from what you are saying that you probably would feel more comfortable dressing up a bit. I think it is a presonal preference, but I can't see exactly how it relates to this question. I think you are making this too hard. My daughter leaves for England next Tuesday and I feel quite sure she will go in to some pubs alone. I don't want to downplay the issue, but it seems like if you would like to go get a beer or glass of wine, it is just fine.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Ed.
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:21 PM

Would the women that go into bars alone go into a busy place on a Saturday night, all dressed up ?

If they did, I think it would be unrealistic not to expect to get chatted up. That's what 'dressed up' Saturday nights are about to many people of both sexes.

Can you explain what you'd wish your 'solo' pub visiting experience to be like?

Do you want to sit in a corner and read your paper? That's what I do when I go into a pub by myself.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:27 PM

No, what I mean is that I think a lot of women would go into a bar under the pretence of having "just popped in", whereas to go out for a night out, all dressed up , and alone..... well, I have never seen a woman do that !

I hope your daughter does go to as many places as she likes, but I still say that in my culture, and my experience it's not the done thing.

p.s. I am in my early thirties

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: jimmyt
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:32 PM

For curiosity, are ou in a city or in a rural location in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Ed.
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:41 PM

in my culture, and my experience it's not the done thing

'Done' things only happen when someone does them. Be safe, but beyond that do what you feel. Forget conventions and explore. You might enjoy it...

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: izzy
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:52 PM

Hallo, Kelly. I don't go out to pubs at all because there aren't any where I live (only taverns -a very different ethos, shall we say) but I have been in them in Britain and there was no problem. Don't worry about whether it's "done" or not --that kind of thinking gets in the way of necessary social change. If you want to go out to a pub on your own, if it's a reasonable place, there'll be nothing wrong with it. And if it isn't it's probably not the kind of place you'd be interested in going to in the first place. By the way, I think a bloke going out on his own all dressed up on Saturday night would probably be looking for some action --so it isn't all that different from women.

And Englishwomen can be just as liberated as any other kind...Stop worrying luv!

Cheers,

Isabel

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 20 Aug 03 - 05:55 PM

Hey Ed.... Who said they didn't want chatted up ? Not I. I may or may not wanted chatted up, just as you may or may not want chatted up when you go to a bar.

Jimmy T;

I am from a town.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 02:10 AM

I've never had a problem going into a pub or bar on my own, but do get really pissed off when people ask me 'waiting for someone?' as if I wasn't allowed in alone.

The other reaction I get is people looking for the partner supposedly with me, or the child that I'm supposedly dragging to the toilet.

As a woman(and a short woman at that), getting served at the bar is a whole other story! Although being short, I can rest my tits on most bar tops, that helps a lot.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 03:45 AM

I agree Liz...going to the pub is one thing but getting served is another......Having tits...and large ones at that usually helps!!!!

Khatt

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 04:33 AM

"I think a lot of women would go into a bar under the pretence of having "just popped in""   

Is there an assumption that this must be a pretence, rather than a simple statement of the truth?

I think height is probably the most significant thing in getting served, male or female. How do tall women fare in this respect?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 05:04 AM

Couple of observations from the Gnome (English). I am a bloke and I would not go out on my own. Particularly dressed up on a Saturday night!

No disrespect, Kelly, but I cannot think of anything worse than standing around in a pub where everyone is having a great time and I am sat there on my todd like the proverbial Billy no mates:-( It does happen on occasions, usualy when I am away on business, but I can usualy only stand it for about 2 drinks before I go back and do something more exciting, like watching the paint dry...

I find it fine to go out at lunch time or early evening at sit reading the newspaper over a pint but once the crowds get in there is no point trying to have a quiet time.

Second thing. I don't know what it is like near you but here in Manchester we are being plagued by a new phenomenon, groups of 'ladettes'. Young women who get drunk and behave far worse than the lads ever did! I have not yet figured out the implications for a woman on her own but it has taught me something. I have never felt intimidated by groups of lads, yet a couple of weeks ago, when confronted by such a group of ladies, I felt far more insecure than I have for a lot of years!

I am sure there is a lesson for me to learn somewhere but I dunno what it is yet...

Not sure if this helps or not but good luck in whatever you decide.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 06:01 AM

I suppose a gnome might stand on a bar stool to get served quicker?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 06:45 AM

Nah - I just bite people ankles and they move out of the may;-)

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Grab
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 08:01 AM

Kelly, if you were a man, chances are it would strike you for the 1000th time how lucky women are to be allowed to to express emotion and feelings for friends and family, how lucky women are that flirting is considered acceptable for a woman, how lucky women are that they look better dancing than men, etc, etc...

Or you could just say screw it and get on with enjoying yourself, whatever you fancy doing. :-) The only rule holding you back is one you've made for yourself.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 08:56 AM

Not just in Manchester, DTG. I try to give marauding bands of feral women a wide berth.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 01:33 PM

"how lucky women are that they look better dancing than men"

Apart from Cotswold Morris generally.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 03:10 PM

O God in heaven! Why o Why was I not created a bar top for Liz's use?

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM

Actually, I think there are differences between the US and UK social standards for women in pubs/bars. But I don't think it has as much to do with whether US women are more liberated than UK women are. In my experiences in both countries, I would say that feminism is more widespread in the US than it is in the UK. But that doesn't seem to trickle down in any meaningful way to the pub culture in the UK or the bar culture in the US. There has never been a tradition of separate drinking spaces in bars for women in the US, there way there is in the UK and Ireland. So, in that regard, the cultural traditions of public drinking in the US and across the pond is very different.

The responses you are getting here seem to be based more on individual, personal experience, and don't seem to be getting at what I sense you are trying to get at. And just to confuse things even more, I don't think this is just rooted in sexism.

Over the years, I have spent a lot of time going into bars in the US and pubs in the UK and Ireland, on my own, in rural, suburban and urban settings. I did feel much more comfortable doing it when I was younger, and enjoyed the courtship ritualism of it all, although I always felt the most vulnerable in rural pubs and bars, for a couple of reasons. First, the clientele in rural areas is almost exclusively older males, in every country I've ever been to (about a dozen in North America and Europe). Suburban and urban pubs and bars where a mostly young clientele congregates, is where I always felt most safe. Now, that said, there are also plenty of urban pubs and bars whose clientele is almost exclusively older men, but those places are pretty seedy.

And finally, there is another aspect to this that effects how comfortable women feel in pubs and bars on their own, and that is a sort of "clan and mates" syndrome. That is, there is an uncomfortable feeling that we get, whether male or female, when we go into a pub or a bar at night, and don't know anyone there. That is a sure recipe for having a drink or two, and getting out. Which has more to do, as others here have noted, with the time of day. We can feel perfectly comfortable going into a pub or bar for lunch or in the afternoon, having a quiet drink or meal while reading, watching the telly, or getting into a friendly, superficial conversation with employees or the clientele. That dynamic changes into it's polar opposite after about 8 or 9 pm, both sides the pond.

More women in the US, in my experience, are willing to go out on their own than in the UK and Ireland, regardless of their destination. That is, IMO, a direct result of feminism making much faster and more substantial gains here, than in the UK and Ireland, where it appears to be about a decade or so behind in terms of that sort of progress for women.

Safety isn't the only issue, although it is one of the main ones. Women on their own at night in a pub or bar, either side the pond, in any environment except for a pub or bar which caters to young people in urban areas, isn't safe, IMO. That doesn't mean I never go to them on my own in suburban and rural areas, because I do. But not very often, and when I do, I take extra security measures, and make sure I don't drink too much. The women who are at highest risk, are always those who have had so much to drink that they are no longer sharp and aware enough of what is going on around them.

Of course, that is when men get into trouble too!

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 03:47 PM

You feel safer in bars where the regulars are young than where they are older, GUEST 21 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM ? I'd have thought it'd have been the other way round.

So long as she didn't stand in front of the dart board a strange female would probably pass unnoticed with most older pubgoers. That's not why they are in the pub. Whereas with young men it's likely to be a bit different.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 03 - 05:52 PM

"So long as she didn't stand in front of the dart board a strange female would probably pass unnoticed with most older pubgoers."

And I have a hard time taking that statement on board--are you joking? A single woman walks into a pub full of older men, and you are suggesting that would go unnoticed?

Sure, McGrath. As unnoticed as a black man walking into a pub with all white patrons.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 05:46 AM

Pubs vary. I'm going by the ones I frequent, where people seem to pay atention to the people they know and generally ignore strangers till they have been in a few times. Male or female, black or white.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST,Kelly
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 02:54 PM

Thanks, GUEST 21 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM .. You know what I am talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 03:17 PM

Well, here's a comment from a single guy in his mid 30's in Canada... the bar/pub that I most often frequent is a very relaxed, casual atmosphere, and many women come in on their own. That being said, the main serving staff are female the majority of the week, so they may feel less threatened. Down the street though, there is a dance club which is known as more of a meat-market as opposed to a meet market, and in that locale it would be a little more likely that a woman in by herself would be approached by quite a few guys to "chat her up", so to speak.

Kelly, I guess it really comes down to the type of person you are, the pub/bar/tavern you wish to go to, and even in how your dress or appearance suits the establishment. Confidence in yourself and your surroundings helps too :)

Let us know how your partying goes this weekend!

Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 03 - 04:00 PM

Why do people so often seem to want to generalise on the basis of particular instances they've come up against? In this case it's not so important, but in other contexts it can be the basis of all kinds of dangerous and damaging stereotyping.

"The world is so full of a number of things..."

Subject: RE: BS: It's a man's world !
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Aug 03 - 01:17 PM

Hey folks, thanks for the replies. Apparently I am just about the only one with this daft attitude, so I am going to follow Liz's advice and arrange my tits to sit conveniently on the bar and ... well.. go for it !