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BS: Oh ye generation of morons...
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Subject: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:22 PM The 'liberal media' in the U.S.? Check out Faux- err Fox News: HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:33 PM Incredible!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bobert Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:43 PM Hey, it's *their* lie an' they ain't gonna give it up without a fight.... ahhhh, literally. Yeah, amazin' just how dumbed down the American people have become. I'm not sure how or when it happened but it is increasingly obvious that it has been accomplished... So much fir the democracy, which Tom Jefferson warned us needs an informed electorate???... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:46 PM Is it fair to use the term "brainwashing" to define what has been done to the American people? It's a neat trick having Government propaganda privatised like that. Probably much more effective than the way they did it in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:00 PM It's just what normally happens in empires that practice aggression. Not all that unusual really. The Romans did it. The British did it. The Germans did it. The French did it. Saddam did it. The Japanese did it. And in most cases, most of their public was just as ill-informed as is the American public. In fact, they usually believed that their government was defending truth, decency, freedom, and all those other wonderful things while it invaded foreign places and killed people who talk funny and dress oddly...and that the World would be much better off for it and the people they "liberated" would be filled with gratitude when the dust settled. Pre-emptive war is terrorism. Threatening it is also terrorism. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:09 PM The strangest one really is the the third - the belief that most people outside America supported what America did. That's unusual. I'd suggest that in most world empires the public, insofar as they took any interest in what was going on, knew that they were generally disliked, and even glorified in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:19 PM I have to agree on that, McGrath. America may be fairly unique it this particular form of cultural blindness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 08 Oct 03 - 07:33 PM The part I truly do not understand is who and where these people are. VERY few people I know are so pathetically ill informed, and that includes some very conservative members of my family. It reminds me of when they used to say "Why Johnny can't read". Well, in my experience Johnny CAN read- my daughter and ALL of her friends were excellent students. The only one of her friends I know of who had no no academic goals and didn't go to college eventually became a seamstress and is a happy woman deeply involved in SCA activities including designing and making costumes. So where are these idiots? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: mack/misophist Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:20 PM One thing Americans on the east and west coasts tend to forget is that they are not the majority. The majority of Americans are still semi-rural mid-western high school graduates who take their news from tv and seldom discuss it with their friends. Except for sports. Many are willfully ignorant and dogmatically religious. WC Fields once said " 'My country right or wrong' is like 'My mother, drunk or sober' ". Much of middle America misses the joke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:25 PM If WC Fields ever said that he was quoting it from GK Chesterton. Which a lot of people do frequently, myself included. I'd be inclined to doubt whether country dwellers are any more likely than town-dwellers to be over-credulous and pig-ignorant about these things. Not without some figures to prove it. There's an old saying "There's none so blind as those who will not see", and I suspect that supplies the explanation for this phenomenon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Burke Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:58 PM I'm one of those PBS/NPR people. Is it that we're better informed or that people who listen to public broadcasting are more likely to question what's happening? What's with those statistics? The the graph totals are over 100%. I was thinking it was % of people using X News source who believe Y. But it says: Primary news source for those who believe Y. Gotta do some more searching on this poll source... Later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: NicoleC Date: 08 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM Wow, ya'll, I meet gobs of people who are utterly ignorant about the world and politics, and most of them are happy to be that way. Let's face it -- we all deep down really wish there was some source, some person, some cure the could solve problems for us and do our thinking. It fortunately doesn't exist, but ,any people want this so badly they pick {insert pundit/politician/TV station/newspaper/columnist here} and assume that that's the TRUTH. You know these folks, too. They're almost always in the majority party (if it's the majority, it must be right) and they never discuss politics, because they already know the answers. As for rural people, they aren't stupid or deliberately ignorant. They just don't get exposed to many of the things that urban people do, so they are less likely to change their mind, I think. That doesn't mean they aren't capable of it, it just means that it's not a priority in their lives if it's even occured to them. After you get beat over the head with diversity for a while in a big city, you can't help but realize that the world's horizons are SO much larger than you thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Burke Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:16 PM The report this is based on looks really interesting. My initial interpretation of the statistics was also the correct one. PIPA has titled it "Misperceptions, The Media and The Iraq War." It's a PDF & the stuff about the media outlets starts on p. 14 (of 23). I don't have time to read it now, but they control for lots of different factors like Attention to News, Party, who they voted for, etc. Here's just one observation: Looking just at Republicans, the average rate for the three key misperceptions was 43%. For Republican Fox viewers, however the average rate was 54% while for Republicans who get their news from PBS-NPR the average rate is 32%. This same pattern obtains with Democrats and independents. GO NPR!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:41 PM So where are these idiots? California. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM I don't know about the U.K., McGrath, but in North America country people tend to be more politically and socially conservative than city people. In my home provice of Ontario, for instance, the Conservative Party's abiding strength is in the more rural areas, and those are the areas that can be depended upon to back right wing legislation. Cities are more cosmopolitan and varied in their makeup, and that tends to promote liberalism. Cities with universities are particulary so. Also, the average age is a lot younger in the major centres, and that's a BIG factor. In the recent Ontario election the Conservatives got clobbered, but they still managed to hang on in some of their rural bastions, where the population is older, whiter, and more traditional...BUT...a mock election was held province-wide among high school students in every Ontario riding AND....not one single riding of students in the entire province elected a Conservative member this time!!! Not one. This is after 8 years of Conservative policies that did more harm to this province, its schools, its ecological protections, and its hospitals than anyone could have anticipated in their worst nightmares. This tells me that the older people are, the more conservative and frankly mean-minded a lot of them tend to be (it's the old "I'm all right, Jack, so just promise ME a tax cut and to hell with the have-nots, they're just bums anyway" attitude), and the younger people are the reverse, ready to try something much more egalitarian. Young people dream of a better World, while people try to protect their established position of comfort and control and their hoard of material possessions. Thank God for the young! (They're a great encouragement to old radicals such as myself.) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: AliUK Date: 08 Oct 03 - 09:47 PM MY God!! This is actually really shocking, the world ( or maybe North America) is really as badly informed as I thought it was. The problem with these polls and the statistics that they represent is that they never really get a good cross-section of the populace. The demographics are always cockeyed and I tend never to believe polls. It´s like betting on horse racing, you bet forever and never win anything. Then suddenly you get a largish resulyt and you think you have won, whereas you haven´t really. Polls sling figures and "facts" at people that can never really be proved, until they hit on a prediction and it comes true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 08 Oct 03 - 10:40 PM Greg: The point of your observation that some of these idiots are in California is what? Are you asserting that it reflects on all residents of the area? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: TIA Date: 08 Oct 03 - 11:06 PM I know (and am related to) Faux viewers and believers of the lies that are NOT rural, NOT illiterate, and (other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln) NOT idiots, but they believe most (if not all) of the three lies. WHAT AM I MISSING? How is this happening? It's not just redneck NASCAR fans. It's not just bought and paid for Republican shills. I fear McGrath is right it's brainwashing! Please tell me it ain't so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: LadyJean Date: 08 Oct 03 - 11:59 PM Television news focusses on local stories, because that grabs attention, and the weather reports, because that's something else people want. The national network news has 30 minutes to tell us what's been going on today, plus a weather report, and a nice human interest story, because people like them. So, they're going to give us five minutes on the war in Iraq, and maybe another five minutes on a service man giving bubble gum to Iraqi children, or a service woman with two children at home. The internet is an excellent source of news, if you can afford a computer, and a service, and someone explains the thing to you. I'm learning my way around by guesswork. Then people hear about internet scams, internet pornography, and internet stalkers, and think internet dangerous, so they don't use it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:31 AM Well here's what it is. If you believe these stories are not true then you have to believe that the media can lie and then you strat wondering if perhaps the GUMMINT can lie, and even maybe the PEE-RESIDENT can lie -- not to just anyone but to the PEE-PULL of the country!! And if you allow that idea then it ALL goes to hell in a hand basket and nothing holds and you just have to spend all day thinking for yourself and being on the look out for false ideas and such hazards. Now, I ask you, who has time to do that? And who would want to think they were in a country like that? I might rather be some kinda damn COMMunist, I swan! It just means nothing is wholly trustworthy -0- not God, not the country, not Mom nor apple pie and its just all goddamned humanist relativism. Well, I know whar mah values are and that ain't it, see???? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,BOAB Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:36 AM I |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,BOAB Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:39 AM I'm not ego-obsessed, honest! --My finger went astray again.... I was about to say that maybe M'Grath and I have the same reaction when we read ---"--the melodrama in California is over---"; hmmmm-yes--pantomime, they mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mickey191 Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:54 AM I've two cousins,both college grads, well travelled, sophisticated and Manhattanites. I believe if they were asked those three questions-they'd flunk. I dare not ask. They become almost unhinged at the suggestion that Bush is incompetant & devious. With one cousin, a bank mgr., I believe it is his extreme hatred for the Clintons. It's like Pavlov's dog, the automatic response if one criticizes Bush & his cohorts, the Clintons are roasted & toasted. The other is a mother of five, one of whom is serving in Korea, near the N.K. border. I was speaking about H.R.Clinton and her good efforts on behalf of vets in the northeast. I was met with stony silence. I think that hatred drives alot of people into irrational stances, and of course the need for constant entertainment. The last couple of days in N.Y. most of the local news programs started with "The tiger in the ap't.story & Sigfreid & Roy Story." This is news? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:20 AM Amos, I believe you have it in a nutshell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM In many parts of the world country dwellers are likely to be more conservative - though that can mean all kinds of things, the central one beig distrustful of innovation, rather than the belief thta the free market can solve everything and that big money is to be trusted - but that doesn't mean gullible. The idea that people in rural areas in a place like the USA these days have fewer sources of reliable information than towndwellers strikes me as very questionable. Anyone who believes those three things - that weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, that Iraq had anything to do with September 11, or that there is widespread support for the invasion of Iraq around the world is either extremely gullible, and I would suspect wilfully so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:22 AM I'm asserting, in response to a query, that some of the 'invisible' idiots- on the basis of recent observations & objective criteria- are in California. But hardly limited to that locale. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Kim C Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:16 PM I think people don't pay close enough attention to the news, and/or believe everything they hear, or think they hear, without a second opinion. Add to that the fact that so many news agencies begin reporting stories before they have all the facts... News reporting is so much hearsay anymore it's incredible that anyone knows what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:33 PM notice the poll was from the whopping sum of 9,611 respondents. a sample rate of approximately 1 in 30,500 Would you be able to figure out the Mudcat if you sampled only every 30,500th message? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 03 - 12:52 PM Willful and conclusive ignorance is a known human mechanism. It is undergone for the benefit of eliminating confusion and permitting stability of mind when looking at things becomes too tiresome and thinking too painful. One simply adopts some sort of conclusion (such as, "Goddam towelheads are all the same", for example) and uses this conclusion as a reason for no longer thinking about questions that are hard to penetrate (such as "What's up with the Muslim population of this planet these days?"). So you can paint everything else black and not think about it. This can be undone by analyzing and recognizing the conclusion itself for what it is. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:02 PM which , BTW - would mean you would have only 34 samples for the seven year history of the MudCat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:07 PM Without going into the long list of cable channels available in my area (not everybody has cable) and looking only at the broadcast channels, tomorrow evening (Friday, 10/9/2003) at 9:00 p.m. the TV Guide lists Hope and Faith, a sitcom; Dateline NBC, newsmagazine; JAG, military/courtroom drama; Lethal Weapon 3, movie thriller; Friends,syndicated rerun of popular sitcom; and NOW, with Bill Moyers, PBS. A sampling of the many cable channels available in this area are This Hour Has 22 Minutes, comedy skits (CBC); Oprah Winfrey, rebroadcast of talk show (KONG); Comedy Central Presents, self-explanatory (Comedy Channel); NFL Live, sports (ESPN); etc., plus Larry King on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Discovery Channel, History Channel, and others all showing their usual programing. During the nine-o'clock hour, I will be watching NOW, with Bill Moyers on PBS. How many other people, do you figure, will also be watching the Bill Moyers show? That explains a lot, I think. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:09 PM The Rocky Mountain West has changed. When I grew up in it, we were well-informed, literate and liberal. When I left Colorado in 1977, it was still heavily Democrat-populated. Now, I find it is more conservative than Wyoming was in some ways. Also, my dau. in WY tells me that even the GOP up there is shaking their heads at the shrub and ready to oust him. THAT, to me, is one of the most significant things I've heard in ages. I always thought of WY as one of the last bastions of conservativism. BUT, they elected a Dem. for gov. last year and now it seems the old fashioned Republicans that they are, are being more vocal and they do have political clout. So...I find the report interesting, but would like to know more about it. Also, I don't think it is a good idea to paint all midwesterners/ruralites/etc. as backwards, ignorant fools, I bleieve the term used to be "dumb hick". We are not, you might be surprised. NPR and PBS reach nearly every area of our country now and have done for years. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 03 - 01:31 PM McGrath - No, country people are not at all deprived of sources of information these days, it's just a different kind of cultural stance, that's all. For instance, consider my town of Orillia, Ontario. It's in a lovely country region that has elected a Conservative MP ever since 1952!!! Even when the Conservatives were dead and buried in Toronto, they would still get elected in this area. They could probably run a chimp here and get elected. Now what is Orillia and area like? Well, it's known as a retirement town. The population is a lot older on average than in Toronto, and the teenagers mostly move to Toronto as soon as they are out of high school if they are at all gifted and independent. The population is typical old white anglo-saxon Canada as it used to be in the 50's in Toronto. It's the old British Empire establishment, you could say. And in Canada, those are the people most likely to vote Conservative and to support the neo-con social agenda generally. They're not stupid, they're well educated, they're generally rather well off, and they've got the political instincts of a moribund jackass (in my opinion). - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM I would like to confess my idiocy as a Californian, and ask for a sampling of others who may be inclined to confess the same -- I'm seriously interested in where I went wrong on this point, and it is relevant to the thread: Yesterday I learned from a foreign newspaper that Arnold ran the losing Bush-Cheney campaign in California in 2000, and that he has some history, small or otherwise, of consulting Karl Rove (which I loooked into after hearing it from Bobert, giving credit where credit is due.) Last night I read my local (Republican-leaning) newspaper (a monopoly holder), and the editorial described Governor Arnold as "the quintessential outsider." SO: I'm wondering, and if other Californians would confess: Did you know both of those facts about Arnold before the election? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:08 PM Having far right views about what's right and what's wrong and all that is one thing. People have a right to have the politucal instinct of a moribund jackass. But being ignorant about pretty basic facts like that, well that is something else. The truth is, in a country that aspires to be a democracy and takes some pride in the traditions of democracy, it's a betrayal of all that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:25 PM "Both of those facts" referring, of course, to Arnold running Bush's campaign and Arnold consulting Karl Rove. If you knew, HOW did you know? My point is: Were these reported in mainstream newspapers or not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:34 PM And you had thought what? Guest/heric, I really am curious. Just what did the people who voted for Schwarzenegger think that he brought to the table- what ideals, experience, ideas, character, credibility? I would like to know, if only to get the courage to ask my California daughter whether she voted for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:40 PM As I've said elsewhere, MemberEbbie, I thought he was a guy who had a meeting with Kenneth Lay, America's biggest crook, at the height of the energy crisis, and claimed not to remember. That was all I needed to know. You didn't even answer the question, btw. Did you, a literate, well-informed Alaskan know those two things? Don't be shy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Oct 03 - 02:48 PM I'm not entirely sure that the U.S. citizens actually aspire to democracy. The founders of the nation found it an expedient philosophy but they were careful not to let voters directly elect the president and they were very careful about who they were going to let vote. U.S. citizens today—like people in all industrialized countries—don't actually experience very much democracy. They grow up in families or institutions that aren't democratic, they go to work for companies that aren't democratic, they worship at churches that aren't democratic and they become comfortable and skillful at managing their position within a rigid power structure. Corporate minions would be in big trouble if their rewards were actually in line with their contributions or abilities. Americans want to use politics in the same way they manipulate corporate hierarchy. They talk about efficiency in government in the same terms they talk about efficiency in production then they equate lack of debate with efficiency. Americans are looking for a sure thing or at least the perceived possibility of getting a sure thing. The last thing most Americans want is a system in which they might acquiesce in one area in order to gain in another. A large percentage of Americans are both selfish and lazy combined with a large measure of avarice. One of the really laughable lines you hear from Americans is "I'm an independent, I have no party affiliation." All that means is that they exercise no control or influence whatever over the choice of candidates in an election. It sounds high-minded and fair but not only do these people shirk responsibility, they provide no input into the party platforms that should be the basis for electoral choice. With the exception of thoughtful folks here on this forum, I think Americans get about what they really want. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,Casual Observer Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:31 PM McGrath et al - The United States isn't a democracy. Supposedly it's a Republic. Now Mark, I don't know why you think having no party affiliation is laughable. Why should I have to choose one or the other when I think they are both idiotic? As far as I'm concerned, every party with a candidate should have equal time in the media without regard to who's got the most money in the war chest. But it never works that way. I vote independent when I have the choice, if I think the candidate is worth voting for, and I think my vote is as valid as anyone else's. People don't have any excuse for being uninformed. The information is out there for those who are willing to take the time to seek it out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:33 PM Mark Clark said he thinks Americans mostly get what they want. Well, perhaps some Americans. And perhaps not. The information at the link below takes careful reading, but can be understood. Once again, the Diebold machines (computerized voting machines) are presumed to have been rigged in the California race. Diebold machines and the California recall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 09 Oct 03 - 03:37 PM >>People don't have any excuse for being uninformed. The information is out there for those who are willing to take the time to seek it out.<< But C.O., the point of the thread is not whether one gets a pass, and is "excused," but whether the larger corporate media have become so derelict in their duties as to create a large population that is so uninformed as to be virtually misinformed. Not a difficult argument to make, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:03 PM Heric: No,. I did not know these two things about Arnahld. I militated against him and voted against him for other reasons. SInce he won anyway I just have to keep my fingers crossed that he has a few more brain cells than I gace him credit for. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: TIA Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:17 PM Folks, please go read the link pdc provided above. Very, very scarey. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM Lest anyone think that I'm unfairly singling out Californians for the Internationl Dumber Than Dirt Sweepstakes, I now tender this entry from the East coast of the country: EXCELSIOR! For those across the pond, the Regents series tests are standardized exams administered by New York State similar to O Levels. There is no nationally administered series of tests. These geniuses decided that a score which amounts to the results that can be obtained by random guessing is a sufficient measure of academic proficiency. This is how the like-minded imbeciles in Dumbya's crew will "Leave No Child Behind" - by allowing everyone on the 'bus whether they have a ticket or not. Stand Tall America! And don't wonder why the U.S. education system is considered to be a joke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST Date: 09 Oct 03 - 04:32 PM *sigh* don't think we';re happy about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 09 Oct 03 - 05:04 PM Amos and I read the same pathetic rag of a monopoly-owning newspaper which just raised its prices. I'm glad at least it wasn't obviously there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: The O'Meara Date: 09 Oct 03 - 05:37 PM Regarding not belonging to a particular political party: I believe in the right of American citizens to unrestricted ownership of firearms. I believe that abortion is up to the woman and is not the business of any government. I believe every American citizen should recieve health care in line with our national wealth and technology. I believe Americans are required to pay far too much in taxes at all levels of government. What party should I belong to? I agree with H.L. Mencken's observation that "Nobody ever lost money underestimating the average American." I'm pretty sure that most Americans cast their ballots based on the "likeability" of the candidates, as seen on TV, not on any particular political philosophy despite all the arguing by the pundits and analysts. O'Meara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 03 - 07:15 PM most Americans cast their ballots based on the "likeability" of the candidates And if we assume that to be true it's still pretty alarming. It means people in America actually see these guys as likeable! Arnold...Bush... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: The O'Meara Date: 09 Oct 03 - 08:19 PM clinton, carter, etc, etc Even Nixon. O'Meara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 03 - 08:50 PM Hey! Old Bill (Clinton) IS sort of likeable, I think....just not very trustworthy in certain respects. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: LadyJean Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:05 PM We have, here in Pittsburgh, an 8% entertainment tax. It is added to the 6% state sales tax and the 1% city sales tax people pay for movie tickets, concert tickets, theater tickets etc. It makes this town a decidedly lousy concert venue. If I wanted to run for public office in this town, I would say that I was going to eliminate the entertainment tax. I would be elected. Arnold got elected because he promised to get rid of a car tax Californians hated. David Duke found his way on to the Louisiana State legislature because he opposed an unpopular tax. Americans vote their wallets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Kaleea Date: 09 Oct 03 - 11:33 PM Wasn't it the great philosopher, Bugs Bunny, who said, "What a maroon!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:00 AM Yes, Guest/heric, I did know that - and a good deal more. I am originally from Oregon, next door to California; maybe that's why? Seriously, there is a good deal on the internet about the man, plus I read several liberal newsmagazines, as well as mainstream ones. Segue here- On Wednesday noons I play with Juneau's City Attorney. (He's a very good mandolin player.) As he was leaving yesterday, I told him that I'm happy with the local elections but that I'm glad I don't live in California. He exploded. "What is the matter with those people," he said. "What the man does is a crime! Why is that suddenly all right?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Barry Finn Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:53 AM It's seems to me that government is top heavy with criminals. One of the new requirements for office I guess. From the president on down. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 10 Oct 03 - 08:44 AM To return to the article that led off this thread.... I don't think that the issue is so much that people are ill-informed or misinformed as much as that they are selectively deaf. The attitude of many Americans is, "George W. Bush said it so it's gotta be the truth." The three misconceptions referred to in the article are not just misconceptions, they are Bush administration policy. Anyone who points out that they are, in fact, lies, is a lying liberal and can be ignored (or he is a traitor and deserves to be shot for implying that GWB is less than perfect). Bush's lies are what many Americans want to believe and evidence to the contrary be damned. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: TIA Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM O'Meara - Your views don't mesh perfectly with either major U.S. political party, but they match Howard Dean's perfectly. (I can't believe I beat Alice in pointing this out :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Oct 03 - 09:39 AM Maybe it's a combination of people who don't listen to the news who say "George Bush says it was Iraq hit us on 911", and believe it because if George Bush says something it must be true; and people who do listen to the news and have picked up on the fact that George Bush has said it wasn't actually Iraq - so they don't believe t, because if George Bush says something it must be a lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:13 AM I pretty much maintain a policy of Cautious Skepticism when I watch/read the news. I do think the media doesn't really do a great job of reporting what the real facts are, because so often it seems like they don't bother to find out. One of the things that gripes me in news reporting is when they report a story, and then say, "details haven't been released." Okay, so why are you telling me this NOW? It don't seem like much of a NEWS STORY until you have the details. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Oct 03 - 11:31 AM Perhaps people say that what they read or hear from Bush is true because it makes them feel secure and comfortable, as though they are living in a country which is Right (pun not applicable here). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:00 PM But that doesn't reallyt wrok pdc, because when it comes to,that about Iraq and September 11th they are apparently refusing to believe what he says... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:02 PM GUEST,Casual Observer said “Why should I have to choose one or the other when I think they are both idiotic?” Well of course they're both idiotic! But that is partly because thoughtful people refuse to participate. It's the parties that generate the platforms and the candidates. If you want decent candidates and responsible issues, get involved in a party. Knock on doors, get out mailings, ask tough questions of people who desire to become candidates and then, when the caucus or primary election is held to choose the candidate, show up, cast your vote, and work to make sure like minded people do the same. The party process isn't that mysterious or difficult; like a lot of life, most of it is just showing up. But to do this, you must register as a party member. You don't have to change your ideas or even agree with the dorks running the party. Pay your dues, hang around and before you know it, you'll be running your local party. It ain't that tough. Voting independent is a luxury we can ill afford at this time. Sure if you're presented with a well educated reasonable sounding Republican running for Congress against a Democrat who seems like another entrenched hack, you're tempted to go for the Republican. But the reality is that the new Republican will wind up as an errand boy for the neocon junta and only adds to their power instead of providing the reason and balance you were hoping for. If you're serious about wanting change, you either have to be in party politics or you must have your own military-industrial complex. If you're just going to remain “above the fray” until someone makes things better for you, you'll be up there a very long time. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:09 PM In general people believe what they want to believe and don't let the facts get in the way too much... They can sometimes be shocked out of that posture if the evidence is drastic enough, though. When that happens, governments fall and political careers are terminated...as will no doubt happen to Arnold somewhere down the line. The saddest thing about North American politics in the last few decades is how people have been suckered over and over again into voting in scoundrels by being offered a tax cut! (As if the money wasn't going to be gotten out of them by some other method...there are real expenses to maintaining a society, and only so much real money to go around. So...if the state reduces your taxes, then you will just end up either losing vital public services or paying more taxes to the towns and municipalities to make up the shortfall...or paying a higher price to private businesses to do what you used to get done by public entities for less money than the private sector will charge you!) Talk about being selectively deaf... It's a political magic show. The hand is quicker than the eye. People only see the obvious hand in front of their nose offering them a tax cut, they don't see the other hand behind their back robbing their wallet and their future at the same time. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:22 PM Okay then the results are in on my scientifically designed study. Two Californians of moderate intellectual capacity who do some reading had never heard that Ahnold was the state campaign head for Bush/Cheney, or that his goobernorship was launched after consultation with Karl Rove. One West Virginian knew that; an Alaskan knew both. Conclusion: Media conspiracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:28 PM Heric, do you have a source for Arnold as state campaign manager for Bush-Cheney? That would be really valuable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 10 Oct 03 - 12:33 PM Good point, LH. The money for infrastructure and services only comes from one of two sources, the average local taxpayer or foreign consumers. Companies don't pay taxes. They may pass some money on to the federal and local governments but they got that money from their customers. The cost is built into their selling price. If you are actually paying taxes and not getting someone else to pay them for you, it's because you aren't selling any goods and services beyond your own labor. If foreign consumers are crazy for your products, you can load exports up with taxes and collect from them but you'd better make sure you don't have to buy any of their products or they'll simply pass the costs back to you. Now the scoundrels are cutting taxes, cutting funds to education and telling us education will be better and more efficient (many people think this means cheaper) if we all just buy it from commercial providers. Of course instead of paying a school superindendent $150,000 there'll be a CEO getting millions plus passing corporate taxes on to us, charging us a sales tax on the cost of going to school then firing any innovative teachers that aren't willing to become corporate drones. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: The O'Meara Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:11 PM Schwarzenegger is a republican, and has been involved with politics for a long time. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. But He's a likeable guy, very funny, a celebrity, and will fix what's wrong "and stuff" so that doesn't matter. ? TIA; I've been avoiding it, but I reckon I'll check out Howard Dean's website. (Can you set up a blue clicky?) I doubt he could win against Bush, but you never know. I think we're too far into the two-party system for a true maverick on either side to have a chance. It's likely Hillary Clinton, (An amateur anti-Christ) wlii jump into the race. And she's a likeable celebrity, what more could you ask for? It looks to me as if "the pendulum" in America is defying the laws of physics and swinging wider each time rather than settling toward the center. In politics, the liberals and conservatives are moving further away from each other and spewing hatred instead of rational arguments. (e.g. the anti-Bush and the anti-Clinton groups) Economically the gap between rich and poor is getting larger. Or am I missing something Sorry to sound so cynical, but, well, I'm cynical. O'Meara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:17 PM pdc the only place I have seen it is here: http://www.sundayherald.com/37214 (I was starting to doubt it, too, if that's your point.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,Casual Observer Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:37 PM Mark, because of the mere fact that I bother to go vote, I don't think anyone decides things for me. It's the people who don't vote that let others make their decisions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 10 Oct 03 - 01:42 PM No doubt at all, Heric - I just couldn't find it. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 10 Oct 03 - 03:54 PM C.O., Yes, I agree. You are taking the trouble to help decide, and that's good. But the candidates and platforms you are given have been decided for you. You could choose to help select candidates and platforms and we'd all be the better for it. Not only that, but you'd have far more influence at the party level than you do as a single vote in the general election. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Oct 03 - 07:46 PM C.O. - It's obviously more empowering to vote than not vote, but what do you do when the major parties are all controlled by big interests that don't represent the ordinary public in the least? How can your vote count when ALL the major parties will betray you once they are in office? That is precisely what's been happening out there for decades, and the public can't do a thing about it. People who don't realize this are either unaware of it (which would be surprising at this point) or they're in deep denial. There are independent candidates and small parties who might offer a real alternative to the Machine but they have utterly no hope of getting elected, because they don't have the funding and they are ignored by the corporate-controlled media. It's a closed shop. Our elections are a facade, not a real exercise in democracy. And that is why I would prefer to see all political parties disbanded forever...and nobody running for office BUT independents, all of whom would receive equal funding from a public campaign trust. Then you could have honest, fair elections. Either that or just select adequately qualified people at random from the population and have them serve in government for 4 years as a public service (like doing jury duty) and earning a good wage. I swear I believe THAT would result in more honest and better government than our present ridiculous system, which is based on patronage and control from behind the scenes by people we never vote for anyway. However, none of these things I suggest will happen. Accordingly, I will enjoy my life as best I can, vote even though I have little confidence that it will make much difference, and concentrate on my own development as a human being in the meantime. After I die, it'll all seem like a good joke anyway, from my point of view at least. This too shall pass. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 10 Oct 03 - 08:45 PM Little Hawk, we had a similar idea here at one time, when we figured Vancouver Island should become a Grand Duchy. People would be randomly selected from the phone book, to act as Grand Duke and Grand Duchess. After a two year period, democratic process would be respected and the populous would then vote as to whether or not the retiring Duke and Duchess would be executed for their performance in office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 03 - 01:44 PM I like it. But why execute them? I think just putting them in the stocks for a day or two and throwing tomatoes at them ought to suffice. :-) And if they did well in office, you could hold a big celebration party for them. I think a government based on random selection of people would work very well indeed. It would be a singular honor to be one of those chosen, and most people would take it very seriously and try their best to do a good job in all probability, knowing that their neighbours and fellow citizens were counting on them. Given the nature of party machines, a person is almost bound to be compromised and corrupted by the existing system long before he ever gets elected. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 11 Oct 03 - 02:02 PM Why execute them??? Because the very real threat of being done in for your malfeasance, is a splendid incentive to deport yourself in an exemplary manner. And besides, the voting populace loves their revenge, why not take it to new heights? *BG* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Oct 03 - 02:38 PM The idea of rule by people who'd been appointed by drawing lots has been around for a long time.The Athenians had a version of it. And here is a rather more recent book arguing the case. It was one of the ideas floating about around what should replace the hereditary House of Lords in London - so thta there woudl be a House of Randoms alongside the Housenif Commons, rather than a second chamber with members appointed or elected. which were always being falsely presented as the only options available. But it's not an idea that professional politicians anywhere ever much like the sound of, strangely enough... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM That's for sure...LOL! The last thing they want is to put government back in the hands of ordinary people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: LadyJean Date: 11 Oct 03 - 11:45 PM Howard Dean balanced the state budget while cutting taxes twice! It's called efficient management. (Or no $300 hammers.) Just think what he could do in Washington! I've been working on his campaign, in a conservative town. Most of the response has been positive. I think Dean CAN beat Bush in '04. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:19 AM I'd like to see Dean get in because of his fiscal record as well. But consider the gigantic deficit the poor guy will inherit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Oct 03 - 12:01 PM To quote Richard Pryor (in "Brewster's Millions) Vote "None of the above"! Nigel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 03 - 12:54 PM LadyJean - That sounds good...but I wonder? In Canada unscrupulous fiscal conservatives have sometimes balanced government budgets too...you know how? NOT by increasing efficiency! Hell no! They did it by downloading their government costs onto the backs of towns, municipalities, and ANYONE else that they could dump the bills on. They did it by eviscerating vital social programs, schools, and hospitals. They did it by throwing mental patients out on the street to fend for themselves. They did it by auctioning off publicly run services to private industry and laying off government workers...whereupon private industry (seeking a profit) tried to do the job with half as many people and did it half as well and CASHED IN...whereupon everything got MORE expensive and a whole lot worse for ordinary people, towns, and municipalities!!! And this they call "fiscal responsibility"! What a lying bunch of thieves they are, robbing Peter to pay Paul and padding their own pockets in the process. No wonder private industry funds their political campaigns! Unfortunately the people who voted for them could see no farther than the glowing announcements about "balancing the budget", and of course their puny tax cut, as promised at election time... This is like a man who pays off one credit card (the official one) while going into debt five times over on three other credit cards that he used to pay off the first one, but he doesn't tell people about those other three credit cards. It's a case of selective blindness. And that is the real conservative agenda in North America. Lies and sleight of hand, while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the middle class withers away. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:12 PM spot on, Little Hawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 12 Oct 03 - 02:21 PM Although none of the survey is surprising, just remember how many people believed Orson Welles' War of the Worlds broadcast. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 12 Oct 03 - 08:59 PM There may be the seeds of a solution here. If memory serves, there were a good number of suicides during & following Welles' radio show. If it is indeed the same gullibility at work, perhaps a re-broadcast would rid us of a substantial number of right-wing nut cases? Probably be worth a try, at least... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:48 PM Watching Jason Robards and Kirk Douglas in Inherit the Wind was a chilling reminder of where our country has been and how much it has reverted in recent times. Of course, the fundies never really went away, but they do have more of a voice, now, than they did even then, in some ways. It was stunning to actually see a banner across the front of the courthouse remind all to "read their Bible daily" then to hear Robard's character demand a similar banner which would read "read your Darwin daily." Reminds me of the judges who want to keep the Ten Commandments in stone in their courtrooms. I wish we had people as eloquent, now, as they were back then, to argue the case against the shrub and his ultra-wrong crew. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: TIA Date: 12 Oct 03 - 10:59 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Oct 03 - 11:52 PM Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee's play Inherit the Wind was probably more important, culturally, than the actual Scopes Trial it chronicles. The original 1925 “monkey” trial was actually a scam rigged by the town council of Dayton, Tennessee, as a desperate but successful attempt to pump some money into the town's failing economy. Scopes agreed to go on trial as part of the scam even though he had never actually discussed evolution in his class. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:13 AM One of the problems is that we don't take these people seriously enough: we call them "fundies," and "rwn's" which tends to trivialize them. They are organized, they are dangerous, and we should consider them as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 13 Oct 03 - 01:29 AM I had never heard that, Mark, though they did say at the beginning of this movie version that it was based on teh play you mentioned. The acting was really superb. pdc, I use "fundies" or whatever as an economy/shorthand of language. When I write op/ed pieces for publication or talk to people, I make sure to spell it out and I have never not taken them seriously. I just wish more people would!:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Renegade Date: 13 Oct 03 - 03:36 PM My God. All these posts, and not a conservative rebuttal among them? Here's one: I live and work in a semi-rural community in Ohio, USA; I am a college graduate, and hold a white collar job. I actually have the temerity to consider myself pretty normal, and maybe share the same likes/dislikes as you elites: I don't smoke or drink; I don't make moonshine; I don't slop pigs, or do funny things with sheep; I don't chase my daughters around the house; I don't go to NASCAR races, although a lot of friends do. And I listen to NPR in morning and evening drive times, until their slanted viewpoint forces a station change. Even though I reside where I do, as a rational adult, I can make my own decisions, and judge for myself. Most of those I know can too, believe it or not. And, guess what? I am a student of this nation's history, too. And, I love this country as much as you all profess to love it. And guess what else? A lot of us illiterates like to watch Fox News, whether it's slanted or not. A lot of us, myself included, think it's about damn time we can see and hear a conservative or moderate view in mainstream media. Out here in East Jesus, OH, as in most places I go (as a travelling salesman) most people don't talk politics. They're just not that worried about current events. That doesn't mean they are uninformed, or ill-informed; it doesn't mean they are unconcerned; it just means that they believe us to be in pretty good hands. When people do talk, they seem, as do my friends and neighbors, to believe that the current administration is handling an enormous problem about as well as can be expected. God forbid someone thinks that, but it's true. (Aside #1: Sorry, no moderate or conservative I know wants to see anyone suffer injury or death, and sorry again, but foremost, no one I know wants to see Americans die. Aside #2: You outdid yourselves this time. It only took 4 or 5 posts for someone to raise the childish liberal cry: "It's like Nazi Germany, I tell ya!!!!" Usually it takes the 15th-20th post for someone, running out of a real argument, pulls the old Hitler cliche out.) And, believe it or not, a lot of us are glad we are not sitting around waiting for another tragedy like 9-11; a lot of us support pre-emptive moves like Iraq. A lot of us believe that if someone's gotta be the 800 lb. gorilla sitting in the middle of that middle east mess, that 800 lb. gorilla had better be the United States Army. Last, a lot of us support an administration that, at the very least, TOOK ACTION. God save us from a Clinton/Gore democrat; if Clinton were in office, 9-11 would be all about him. If Gore, we'd still be debating a proportionate response to 9-11, and wondering why they hate us so much. (We Neanderthals, by the way, don't much care why they hate us.) Ultimately, my point is: You are not the only enlightened ones in this country, or in the world. Others, just as fast, bright, smug and arrogant as you, like myself, can and do hold a completely different opinion. And the beauty of this country is we get to vote about it, so we'll see you in Nov. '04. The question this election won't be: are you better off? It will be: do you feel safer? Us poor backward country folk, not knowing any better, who can't figure it out ourselves, and being brain-washed, will just do whatever Fox tells us. All kidding aside: field your best team, because we will. Thanks Bill |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:11 PM if Clinton were in office, 9-11 would be all about him. Correction: the GOP Congress would MAKE it about him, to the tune of 12 million dollars or more with Ken Starr at the head of it! All the same, thanks for posting! kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:16 PM Bill: I'm sorry if the dialogue on this thread has upset you in some way. I appreciate your viewpoints as expressed. I am moved to ask what the "enormous problem" was that the current administration is handling as well as it could be handled. Do you mean the enormous problem of sadistic tyranny in Iraq? Of their aggressive WMD program? Their intimate links with Al Queda and the 9-11 attacks? Or are you referring to the post-war situation of drawn-out guerrilla/terrorist counter-attacks? In any case, I have yet to see a rebuttal for the core issues. But if your political views are essentially adversarial -- and your whole post indicates they are -- we won't have a lot to discuss anyway, because I see little intention to communicate. Maybe that's the difference between "liberals" and "conservatives". We prefer to solve problems by communication, not by harder hitting, as long as that is a viable option. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:35 PM Hey, Bill, I hope you don't have me confused with whoever it is you're talking about... I don't have you confused with whoever it is you think most of the people on this thread are talking about. You might be interested to know that in Canada hardly any of your US media is seen as anything but conservative (with a very few rare exceptions). You guys are living in a world of your own down there...a self-created thought bubble. What you see as "liberal", most of the world sees as rather to the right of center, and there is not one other nation in the World whose population (a majority of them, I mean) supported your pre-emptive war of aggression on Iraq, other than Israel. A few governments supported it. Their people did not. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was not a friend of Al Queda. Iraq was not involved in attacking the WTC. They hate the USA, yes...and they have plenty of reason to by now. The whole Third World hates the USA by now. The Turkish population hates the USA, but their government just agreed to send troops to Iraq. Why? Because they need American financial assistance for their ailing economy. 80% of the Turkish population is against assisting the American occupation...so tell me...does America really want a healthy, functioning democracy in Turkey? I don't think so. America wants an obedient client state...just like the obedient client states Russia had when the Warsaw Pact was still alive. Dont make the mistake that Third Worlders hate the USA because the USA is democratic. Good God, no! Virtually all Third Worlders want democracy passionately, except for the few despots at the top, and most want modernization too, while desirous of preserving their own culture at the same time. They hate the USA because they are deathly afraid of being invaded, colonized, bankrupted, bombed, and ruled from afar against their will by the World's one reigning superpower. I see you as a reasonable, intelligent guy, Bill...who is a product of his environment. I would probably be quite happy to have you as a neighbour. I'm not at all surprised you see things the way you do. The next tragedy like 911 will not be prevented by terrorizing the rest of the World. It will be hastened by so doing. How long before it's a nuke in a suitcase? And then what innocent, distant country will pay the price for the New Roman Empire's megalomaniac ambitions and its need to defend what it buys out or what it steals from those less powerful? The whole World is afraid of the USA. Very afraid. You are living in a rogue nation. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Oct 03 - 04:41 PM Knowing basic stuff is surely a good idea for any citizen in a democracy, Bill? For example, in this case, knowing that there is no reason whatsover to believe that Iraq had anything to do with September 11th - and George Bush has even said that he accepts that. How people choose to vote and the opinions they hold about what needs to be done are something else entirely. But I'd have assumed that there'd be agreement across political lines that ignorance about such things is pretty worrying and pretty shameful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 03 - 05:09 PM And the question is, "Do I feel safer?" No! I feel much less safe as a result of the USA's pre-emptive war of aggression on a country that has done absolutely nothing to realistically threaten the USA. I feel a lot less safe now when I go to the USA too, because it's a country in the grip of fear-based propaganda that is right out of control. Your democracy is vanishing, Bill, in the name of Homeland Security. If pre-emptive war is considered justifiable by one nation, it will be considered so by others. Pre-emptive war IS terrorism. Your government has practiced terrorism before too...in Vietnam, in the Phillipines, in Nicaraugua, in El Salvador, and in many, many other places. Terrorizing those who will not cooperate is its stock in trade. Your goverment was tried and found guilty by the World Court in the 1980's for doing just that in Nicaragua....and totally ignored that ruling. What does that tell the World at large? That your government is an outlaw. The opinion of the World means no more to the USA than it did to Hitler or Stalin. All that matters to the USA is firepower, and you guys have got it coming out your ears. I have felt a lot less safe for quite some time now, even in a relatively safe place like Canada. If my government were not quietly complicit in selling your military all the arms it wants and providing you with natural resources at a good price, we would probably have been taken over openly by now too, under some pretext. (You may not know it, but Canada is a very significant arms supplier to the US military. We've got lots of high tech industry here making stuff for American wars, whether our people support those wars or not.) That's the great thing about free enterprise...it doesn't really give a damn whose hand it places the murder weapon in as long as it makes the sale. You can honor God and Life...or you can honor the dollar. Guess which one it is in America? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 13 Oct 03 - 06:01 PM Little Hawk For President! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 13 Oct 03 - 11:40 PM McGrath, it occurs to me to wonder whether Blair got into the position he's in partly because people perceived him as likeable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 14 Oct 03 - 01:52 AM Well said, LH, in your last two postings, esp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Oct 03 - 05:29 AM "...it occurs to me to wonder whether Blair got into the position he's in partly because people perceived him as likeable? " I'd say the answer is yes - but the people concerned were the Labour Party activists, and they were judging what they thought ordinary people liked. I doubt very much whether the people who made him leader of the Labour Party particularly liked him then or like him now. I also doubt whether that many ordinary people particularly liked him when they voted Labour to get rid of the Tories and to keep them out. I don't think "liking" really comes into it too much. The symbolic question people ask about politicians often is "would you buy a used car from him", which is about pereceived hmnesty and also to some extent about competence, but not about likeability. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: katlaughing Date: 15 Oct 03 - 11:33 PM Bobert asked me to put this link in here...it's an interesting op/ed piece in the Washington Post, today. I guess it got a lot of discussion on Pacifica.:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Hrothgar Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:08 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 16 Oct 03 - 04:09 PM Wow, Little Hawk, you're really on a roll! Spot on! Any time an individual or a nation allows the almighty dollar to supercede the value of human life, that individual or nation is dancing with the Devil. One of the major misconceptions in this country is that democracy and capitalism are the same thing. WRONG!! The two are separate. In fact, the two are often mutually inimical. Capitalism can very easily lead to a dangerous flirtation with fascism, as it currently does in the United States, although people get upset with me when I say this. Fascism doesn't require black uniforms and swastika armbands and straight-arm salutes, or even rampant racism. Or even a single obvious dictator. All it requires is for the government and the corporations to be so intertwined that they are all but indistinguishable. And when you look at the backgrounds and the current connections of the Bush administration, you can't help but be led to some very uncomfortable conclusions. The government, with its blatant embracing of pre-emptive war, has already taken on the bellicose characteristics of a fascist regime. The stipulations of the Patriot Act are also consistent with that trend. What it would take to completely push the country over the edge would be, as Hitler did in 1933, to abolish democratic elections. I think the current administration has already demonstrated its disdain for the electorate (remember Florida?). I would hope that such an abolition would cause the citizens of this country to revolt, but I sometimes wonder. . . . An administration might attempt to maintain the charade of free elections, which is why electronic voting—no paper trail—scares the hell out of me. Fascist political leaders are characteristically fond of military uniforms (see Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco). It may be reading too much into the flight-suit incident, but even presidents like George Washington through all other presidents who were former military men right up through General Dwight D. Eisenhower never wore their rightfully earned uniforms while they were in office, even when in a military setting. What the lack of uniform is supposed to indicate is that the military is under the ultimate command of an elected civilian. George W. Bush is the first American president to opt to wear a military uniform while in the office of president. A little indication here, a little indication there. There is a bad smell in the wind, and it makes me uncomfortable. Don Firth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 16 Oct 03 - 06:55 PM Don, again well-stated, and again I would like to borrow your post and publish it elsewhere. (No, I don't take credit -- nor do I "out" you, I simply say it is from another forum, with permission.) 'Kay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:21 PM GUEST,pdc, By all means. Feel free. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:00 PM How is this for downgrading the importance of elections: "Why is this man in the White House? The majority of Americans did not vote for him. He's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this." That's from the man newly appointed as deputy undersecretary of defence for intelligence, Lt Gen William Boykin, talking about Bush. And here he is talking about Allah (who he seems to be under the impression is somehow a different God from the Christian and Jewish God): "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real god and his was an idol." Or: "Our religion came from Judaism and therefore [Islamic] radicals will hate us forever." (Apparently unaware that Islamic religion has its roots in Judaism, and is a lot closer to Judaism in all kinds of way than Christianity is.) Here is a story in the Daily Telegraph (which in England is as right-wing as a quality paper can be, in case anybody thnks it might have been slanted in a "liberal" direction: God put Bush in charge, says the general hunting bin Laden (You might need to register to read this, but it's free) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 17 Oct 03 - 01:27 PM Little Hawk, I hope you can forgive me for questioning your authority to speak on behalf of the world. However, if you can get a message out, please tell them they have nothing to fear but fear itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 17 Oct 03 - 02:10 PM I heard about Gen. Boykin on NPR this morning. Boykin is a fundamentalist "Christian." Hearing the report reminded me that when Bush first started lining Iraq up in his sights, he used the word "crusade" a lot, until someone in the inner circle told him cool it. The word "crusade" comes from crux, Latin for "cross." Many Muslims regard a "crusade" as the Christian equivalent of a "jihad." By using the word, Bush was rapidly alienating friendly Muslims. Here is an alternate Christian view. Another interesting article from the same source. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 17 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM Way back up the thread we mentioned likeability in politicians. Today I read this: ... But what will matter more is whether the American peole feel at ease with Clark. In a television era, sheer likeability is essential. This is why the spectacularly qualified Al Gore lost (or tied) to George Bush, who was ill prepared for the job and has since repudiated just about everything he said during the campaign about foreign affairs. People liked Bush. The rest is commentary. Richard Cohen/ Liberal Opinion September 29, 2003 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 06:45 PM "People liked Bush." Clearly some people did and do, and others most emphatically don't. The question is, which comes first, liking or disliking the man, and agreeing or disagreeing with what he was seen as standing for. The assumption seems to be that the liking is the first thing, and people don't worry or know too much about the other stuff. I'm not at all sure that's true. I think whether we like people or not is very coloured by what we see them as standing for, at least as often as the other way round. I don't mean by that necessarily just politics. More important than that is a feeling that someone is going to somehow get the job done, and that doesn't have to mean you like them as people one little bit. But once you've decided to back someone, maybe just in your mind, you are going to find reasons to like them, people are like that. Even their bad points become good ones. And to some extent it works the other way - if you are against someone you find reasons to dislike them. But even when it isn't the politics tat decide, I think it's alot mor ethan likeability as such. I read a convincing piece the other day which was arguing that increasingly what really matters in US elections isn't likeability or charm, it's whether it makes an interesting story. Arnold Schwarzenegger winning made a good story - Conan the Barbarian makes it to the top , Governor Davies winning would have made a boring story. The same with George Bush junior and Al Gore (or with George Bush senior and Bill Clinton). The winner is the one whose story sounds like a pitch for a film. In the British system the way elections are generally run gets in the way of this, because it is so fragmented - but they same process occurs when it can - Ken Livingstone running for Mayor of London, with all the political machines against him. Up in the North in Hartlepool they have an election for Mayor, and the local football teams mascot is a candidate, a man who dresses as a monkey runs. And in both cases the good story wins. Again, stories that sound like films. In this case Carry On films or Ealing Comedies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:57 PM Well, I never wasted a second liking him. I have too much confidence in Gregor Mendel. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:00 PM I can forgive you for just about anything, heric, except making unwarranted advances to my chinchilla! :-0 (She's a sensitive creature...) I fairly much agree that there is nothing to fear but fear itself, and it's my feeling that the present American administration has been engagin in fear-mongering on a tremendous basis...but it all depends on whether you think they're right or not. If you do think they're right, then those of us who see them as dangerous and talk about it in public are engaging in fear-mongering... All comes down to opinion, doesn't it? It's my impression that the only 2 populations in the World which enthusiastically supported the attack on Iraq were those of America and Israel (and maybe Kuwait, I suppose). It's a general impression I have, and it's probably pretty accurate. Like anyone else, I try to sum up what I see as best I can, given available evidence... Moving on...God protect us from people who think "My God is bigger than his God"!!! Sounds like the old "My dad is tougher than your dad" routine...the infantile tactics of playground bullies. What do you do when a playground bully has nukes and B-52's at his command? I believe in a God who loves all people, quite regardless of whether they love themselves or each other. Such a God does not help people plan to kill each other, but assists all individuals constantly in ways considerably more straightforward than that...giving them strength, courage, reasoning ability, love, and every other good quality to work with. From there on, it's up to them, because they are also given Free Will and are at total liberty to use it foolishly or wisely. I am now speaking for God as well as humanity, and that's okay. Anyone else could do that just as well as me, since we are all part of both God and humanity, but what will they say? I wonder? Will they speak for life or for destruction? Will they seek brotherhood or victory? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM I don't think the people of Kuwait get much of a say in these matters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:25 PM No, well they never did, did they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 19 Oct 03 - 09:46 AM Wild Flight of Fancy?? ---- Fact-Free News (Washington Post) By Harold Meyerson Wednesday, October 15, 2003; Page A23 ... One question inevitably raised by these findings is whether Fox News is failing or succeeding. Over at CBS, the news that 71 percent of viewers hold one of these mistaken notions should be cause for concern, but whether such should be the case at Fox because 80 percent of their viewers are similarly mistaken is not at all clear. Rupert Murdoch, Roger Ailes and the other guys at Fox have long demonstrated a clearer commitment to changing public policy than to reporting it, and an even clearer commitment to reporting it in such a way as to change it. Take a wild flight of fancy with me and assume for just a moment that one major goal over at Fox is to ensure Bush's reelection. Surely, anyone who believes that Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda were in cahoots, that we've found the WMD and that Bush is revered among the peoples of the world -- all of these known facts to nearly half the Fox viewers -- is a good bet to be a Bush voter in next year's contest. By this standard -- moving votes into Bush's column and keeping them there -- Fox has to be judged a stunning success. It's not so hot on conveying information as such, but mere empiricism must seem so terribly vulgar to such creatures of refinement as Murdoch and Ailes. Article HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 12:40 PM Fox reflects the general dumbing-down of the population in the US today, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 03 - 12:53 PM "Dumbing down" rather implies something done to people against their will. Unfortunately it's far worse than that - the damage is self-inlicted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:57 PM I take your meaning, McGrath, but it's in human nature to take the easy route, and with Fox providing news as entertainment, with the bread and circuses routine going on in the US now (reality TV, the Simpsons, movies such as Dumb and Dumber), I wonder if people are forgetting how to think, in lieu of being entertained. I loathe TV, but watch when it's something that really interests me. Being a big baseball fan, I've been watching the pennant race, and now the World Series. But the commercials they show for the new TV shows -- yuk!! I can't believe that people seriously watch this stuff and then discuss it the next day. One show they advertise is called "24," and it evidently offers terrorism as entertainment. If that isn't cynical, I don't know what is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:06 PM Some of us take exception to the encroaching tide of stupidity and have inherited the reverence for knowledge and analysis -- and I am sure we would prefer nopt to be painted with the same tarry brush as you are using on television advertising PDQ!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 19 Oct 03 - 02:33 PM ". . . the damage is self-inflicted." True, up to a point. But this particular "dumbing down," I think, comes largely as a result of hearing only one side of the story, and with five mega-corporations in control of the media, that's what the vast majority of the American public gets. But there are other sources. The Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS gives pretty in-depth reports, and they do their damnedest to get it right. NOW, with Bill Moyers does some pretty good investigative reporting, as does Frontline, but these programs are on PBS, which all too many Americans regard as "square" or "dull" or (or the ultimate curse) "for eggheads"— and, of course, the all-time favorite, "ultra-liberal." What makes these programs all those things is that they try to present things factually, more often then not they show rather than tell, and they give people from both sides of an issue an opportunity to speak their piece and they let the viewer make up his or her mind. And Frontline and NOW, with Bill Moyers especially air issues that the Right and the Bush administration would much rather the general public not know about. Even 60 Minutes on CBS has been doing some pretty darned good journalism lately. These programs earn the usual collection of epithets, not because what they report is untrue, but because they report it at all. And, of course, there is a vast wealth of information to be found on the internet. Reading material from the news services of other countries supplies a lot that one just doesn't hear about in the U. S., and it allows one to compare these offerings with what is offered in the domestic media. This can be quite revealing. Also, CSPAN and CSPAN2 allow one to watch a whole series of candidates' debates, and see our government in action (which is often, as the saying goes, like watching sausage being made–something you'd rather not know). If one watches the news at all, it's easiest to just pop on one of the Big Three (ABC, NBC, or CBS), catch a few national sound-bites, a few local sound-bites, and then seque right into the game shows and sitcoms and heavy dramas like Touched by an Angel. If one is really into the news at all, one can switch over to CNN or Fox News (sometimes not a helluva lot of difference there). The "dumbing down" comes from laziness, lack of interest, and desire to be entertained rather than informed. If democracy depends on an informed electorate, if eternal vigilance is the price of freedom, and if we really do get the government we deserve, I'd say we are in deep doo-doo. You've gotta do it yourself. If you sit back and say, "Let George do it"—well, look folks! He's doing it!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 03:52 PM Quite right, Don Firth. And I am posting below a story typical of what is NOT on the popular media, which most people watch. Although there are hundreds of stories, such as special medical teams being sent to Iraq because of (finally!) concern about the number of US soldiers committing suicide, I chose this one, because most Americans know at least one person in the military. It's necessary to read the whole article, just for the "punch line" at the end. Sick, wounded U.S. troops held in squalor By MARK BENJAMIN, UPI Investigations Editor FORT STEWART, Ga., Oct. 17 (UPI) -- Hundreds of sick and wounded U.S. soldiers, including many who served in the Iraq war, are languishing in hot cement barracks here while they wait -- sometimes for months --to see doctors. The National Guard and Army Reserve soldiers' living conditions are so substandard, and the medical care so poor, that many of them believe the Army is trying push them out with reduced benefits for their ailments. One document shown to UPI states that no more doctor appointments are available from Oct. 14 through Nov. 11 -- Veterans Day. "I have loved the Army. I have served the Army faithfully and I have done everything the Army has asked me to do," said Sgt. 1st Class Willie Buckels, a truck master with the 296th Transportation Company. Buckels served in the Army Reserves for 27 years, including Operation Iraqi Freedom and the first Gulf War. "Now my whole idea about the U.S. Army has changed. I am treated like a third-class citizen." Since getting back from Iraq in May, Buckels, 52, has been trying to get doctors to find out why he has intense pain in the side of his abdomen since doubling over in pain there. After waiting since May for a diagnosis, Buckels has accepted 20 percent of his benefits for bad knees and is going home to his family in Mississippi. "They have not found out what my side is doing yet, but they are still trying," Buckels said. One month after President Bush greeted soldiers at Fort Stewart -- home of the famed Third Infantry Division -- as heroes on their return from Iraq, approximately 600 sick or injured members of the Army Reserves and National Guard are warehoused in rows of spare, steamy and dark cement barracks in a sandy field, waiting for doctors to treat their wounds or illnesses. The Reserve and National Guard soldiers are on what the Army calls "medical hold," while the Army decides how sick or disabled they are and what benefits -- if any -- they should get as a result. Some of the soldiers said they have waited six hours a day for an appointment without seeing a doctor. Others described waiting weeks or months without getting a diagnosis or proper treatment. The soldiers said professional active duty personnel are getting better treatment while troops who serve in the National Guard or Army Reserve are left to wallow in medical hold. "It is not an Army of One. It is the Army of two -- Army and Reserves," said one soldier who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom, during which she developed a serious heart condition and strange skin ailment. A half-dozen calls by UPI seeking comment from Fort Stewart public affairs officials and U.S. Forces Command in Atlanta were not returned. Soldiers here estimate that nearly 40 percent of the personnel now in medical hold were deployed to Iraq. Of those who went, many described clusters of strange ailments, like heart and lung problems, among previously healthy troops. They said the Army has tried to refuse them benefits, claiming the injuries and illnesses were due to a "pre-existing condition," prior to military service. Most soldiers in medical hold at Fort Stewart stay in rows of rectangular, gray, single-story cinder block barracks without bathrooms or air conditioning. They are dark and sweltering in the southern Georgia heat and humidity. Around 60 soldiers cram in the bunk beds in each barrack. Soldiers make their way by walking or using crutches through the sandy dirt to a communal bathroom, where they have propped office partitions between otherwise open toilets for privacy. A row of leaky sinks sits on an opposite wall. The latrine smells of urine and is full of bugs, because many windows have no screens. Showering is in a communal, cinder block room. Soldiers say they have to buy their own toilet paper. They said the conditions are fine for training, but not for sick people. "I think it is disgusting," said one Army Reserve member who went to Iraq and asked that his name not be used. That soldier said that after being deployed in March he suffered a sudden onset of neurological symptoms in Baghdad that has gotten steadily worse. He shakes uncontrollably. He said the Army has told him he has Parkinson's Disease and it was a pre-existing condition, but he thinks it was something in the anthrax shots the Army gave him. "They say I have Parkinson's, but it is developing too rapidly," he said. "I did not have a problem until I got those shots." First Sgt. Gerry Mosley crossed into Iraq from Kuwait on March 19 with the 296th Transportation Company, hauling fuel while under fire from the Iraqis as they traveled north alongside combat vehicles. Mosley said he was healthy before the war; he could run two miles in 17 minutes at 48 years old. But he developed a series of symptoms: lung problems and shortness of breath; vertigo; migraines; and tinnitus. He also thinks the anthrax vaccine may have hurt him. Mosley also has a torn shoulder from an injury there. Mosley says he has never been depressed before, but found himself looking at shotguns recently and thought about suicide. Mosley is paying $300 a month to get better housing than the cinder block barracks. He has a notice from the base that appears to show that no more doctor appointments are available for reservists from Oct. 14 until Nov. 11. He said he has never been treated like this in his 30 years in the Army Reserves. "Now, I would not go back to war for the Army," Mosley said. Many soldiers in the hot barracks said regular Army soldiers get to see doctors, while National Guard and Army Reserve troops wait. "The active duty guys that are coming in, they get treated first and they put us on hold," said another soldier who returned from Iraq six weeks ago with a serious back injury. He has gotten to see a doctor only two times since he got back, he said. Another Army Reservist with the 149th Infantry Battalion said he has had real trouble seeing doctors about his crushed foot he suffered in Iraq. "There are not enough doctors. They are overcrowded and they can't perform the surgeries that have to be done," that soldier said. "Look at these mattresses. It hurts just to sit on them," he said, gesturing to the bunks. "There are people here who got back in April but did not get their surgeries until July. It is putting a lot on these families." The Pentagon is reportedly drawing up plans to call up more reserves. In an Oct. 9 speech to National Guard and reserve troops in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, Bush said the soldiers had become part of the backbone of the military. "Citizen-soldiers are serving in every front on the war on terror," Bush said. "And you're making your state and your country proud." -0- Mark Benjamin can be contacted at mbenjamin@upi.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 19 Oct 03 - 04:30 PM Here's another little item - from the LA Times, but you have to be registered to read the article, so I have reproduced the essential parts here: Atty. Gen. Ashcroft is pulling out all the stops to prosecute protesters. It has lain dormant in the darkest recesses of American law for 125 years, but this month Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft introduced critics of the administration to his latest weapon in law enforcement. In a Miami federal court, the attorney general charged the environmental group Greenpeace under an obscure 1872 law originally intended to end the practice of "sailor-mongering," or the luring of sailors with liquor and prostitutes from their ships. Ashcroft plucked the law from obscurity to punish Greenpeace for boarding a vessel near port in Miami. Not only is the law being used to prosecute one of the administration's most vocal critics in an unprecedented attack on the 1st Amendment, but it appears to be part of a broader campaign by Ashcroft to protect the nation against free speech, a campaign that has converted environmentalists into "sailor-mongers" and nuns into terrorists. None of these organizations contest the right of the government to punish them for trespass or even criminal misdemeanors. Indeed, they view such punishment as a badge of honor. However, Ashcroft is now seeking symbols of his own: The image of a major environmentalist organization placed on probation or nuns being sent to jail is clearly meant to send a chilling message from the man who once accused his critics of aiding and abetting terrorists. Unless deterred by Congress or the courts, Ashcroft will continue his campaign to protect Americans from the ravages of free speech. If he succeeds, it will not be sailors but free speech that will be shanghaied in Miami. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 03 - 05:17 PM And if that's what it's like for the US troops who need medical help, God help the Iraqi civilians. As Don Firth pointed out, other sources of information are out there, within easy reach. If people rely on the junk sources for the junk news, that really is their own choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:16 AM If people rely on the junk sources for the junk news, that really is their own choice. And that's how they become junk citizens and elect junk government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:00 AM And this just in from trhe Moron In Chief: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 No wonder Bush doesn't connect with the rest of the country By HELEN THOMAS HEARST NEWSPAPERS WASHINGTON -- President Bush recently gave an hour-long exclusive interview to Fox TV anchor Brit Hume, who tossed him a series of softball questions. Among them, Bush was asked how he gets his news. Answer: He relies on briefings by chief of staff Andrew Card and national security affairs adviser Condoleezza Rice. He walks into the Oval Office in the morning, Bush said, and asks Card: "What's in the newspapers worth worrying about? I glance at the headlines just to kind of (get) a flavor of what's moving," Bush said. "I rarely read the stories," he said. Instead, the president continued, he gets "briefed by people who have probably read the news themselves." Rice, on the other hand, is getting the news "directly from the participants on the world stage." Bush said this had long been his practice. "I have great respect for the media," he said. "I mean, our society is a good, solid democracy because of a good, solid media. But I also understand that a lot of times there's opinions mixed in with news." To which Hume told Bush: "I won't disagree with that, sir." Bush continued: "I appreciate people's opinions, but I'm more interested in news. And the best way to get the news is from objective sources. And the most objective sources I have are people on my staff who tell me what's happening in the world." What struck me and a lot of other folks about the interview was Bush's revelation that he does not read newspapers. Anyone who wants to stay in touch with national, international and local events looks forward to reading the newspaper every day. The variety and breadth of newspaper stories make Americans the best-informed people in the world. If the president doesn't read newspapers but relies only on his aides, then I wonder if they told him about Kimberly Requell Mari Brice, the Landover, Md., 5-year-old first grader who was fatally shot by her 4-year old brother. Her teacher said Kimberly "always gave me the biggest and best hugs." The story was in The Washington Post on Oct. 9. It was a tragic story that made a compelling case for gun control, something that Bush is totally opposed to. Busy as he is, Bush would be better acquainted with the daily lives of Americans if he read his daily newspapers. I don't know of many brave White House staffers willing to risk the president's anger by dishing him the bad news. Instead, Bush is spoon-fed the 'relevant' news from his staff. Top aides usually know the buttons not to push when it comes to bad news. More often they will tell the president what he wants to hear -- the good news if there is any. Or they may just sugar coat the news that is tougher to swallow. It's too bad that Bush's reading habits take him out of the information link that connects us and provides the glue that holds our society together..... * The rest HERE |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,WHA-A-A-A-TTTT??? Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:36 AM Americans are "the best informed people in the world"????? Oh yeah? LOL! I wonder who dreamed up that notion? Must have been an American, I suppose.... :-) I mean, really, what on earth would make Americans better informed than, say, the English, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, the Canadians, the Swiss, the Irish, the Norwegians, the...etc..etc..etc..? It's little Freudian slips like that which inadvertently expose the collosal hubris and unreality that is imprinted on American culture and taken for granted in the 50 states of the Union by its befuddled populace. Look, guys, I lived in the USA for some years, and I found them to be comparatively less well informed than a number of other societies I've been exposed to. When a system has a great deal to hide, it doesn't tend to inform its people particularly well. It simply buries them under an avalanche of carefully prepared disinformation and propaganda, along with the usual commercial advertising, which is the main point of its media anyway. The last thing the US government has in mind is to truly inform people. If people in the USA were truly informed there'd be a revolution, and the careers of most of your leaders would be abruptly terminated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:59 AM Although I have to agree with the previous poster that Americans are not the best-informed people in the world, I also have to wonder if anyone is indeed well-informed. All newspapers have a specific perspective; all sources from which newspapers get their news have a perspective. What we consider "mainstream" media, such as the Globe & Mail, present the news from their own bias, even if subtle. I believe that news has become virtually subjective, and the only way for a person to learn what is going on is to read the same story from several different slants - right, left, Israeli, Palestinian, whatever. Sometimes foreign news sources give us information that our own have omitted. With the internet, this choice is no longer so difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:19 PM "Anyone who wants to stay in touch with national, international and local events looks forward to reading the newspaper every day" I'm sorry but this is so dated as to be codwallop. For one thing newsopapers are notorious at the fine art of distortion in support of circulation figures. They seek controversy or make it where ther eis none; they emphasize and dramatize the danger and harmful elements in the environment and refuse to give much space to positive accomplishments, benevolent developments, or siomple progress. It is still true you can learn more about the little filler stories. I suck up a large volumer of news every morning and I haven't read anewspaper in months. I find out what is happening from groups of people all over th eplanet juist by visiting appropriate news groups and specialized interest portals such as SlashDot. I can find someone in any part of the world to offer a local opinion, if I care to do so, and I can read news culls from dozens of wire services and newspapers. Why should I limit myself to the parochial and largely biased angles of, for example, the yellow right-wing San Diego Union, for example? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:36 PM Of course, that writer is Helen Thomas, a columnist/reporter who has been around for several generations. I don't know how old she is but she has to be at least in her upper 70s. My guess is that a great many things have changed in this country over the years, and that she is still looking at them from an earlier perspective. I could be wrong, though... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 03 - 12:52 PM It's pretty clear from that piece by Helen Thomas that she's not too well informed herself. Alternatively, if she really thinks Americans are "the best-informed people in the world" she must must have the most profound contempt for the ability of people in other countries to know what is happening in the world. That's going by the story that started off this thread. Here's the link to it once more. Reemember, it appears to indicate that sixty percent of Americans actually believe at least one of these propositions, all of which are total cobblers: U.S. forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. There's clear evidence that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein worked closely with the Sept 11 terrorists. People in foreign countries generally either backed the U.S.-led war or were evenly split between supporting and opposing it. Sixty per cent - and that's not even counting the ones who said "don't know". "The variety and breadth of newspaper stories make Americans the best-informed people in the world. Well, they could be if they wanted to be, and are when they do want to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Mark Clark Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:06 PM Helen Thomas is still a very respected journalist and I imagine that her remark about the most informed was based on her detailed knowledge of the vast amount of information available to people in the U.S. Americans probably do have the opportunity to be well informed; clearly, relatively few of us actually take the trouble to read it. This tendancy of Americans to stay on the stupid side isn't a new development. I remember having lunch with some engineers in 1967 or so and discovering they were hopelessly misinformed about our nation's activities in Viet Nam and the history of that conflict. When I asked for the source of their information, it turned out to be Steve Canyon, a comic strip in the daily newspaper. It's common to see articles reporting that new graduates in this country don't know where states and cities are located and haven't even heard of most countries let alone have some clue as to their whereabouts. Americans don't know the history behind almost any given conflict and that includes local ones like the War with Mexico and the American Civil War. Many Americans seem to practice a faith that is a combination of Christian fundamentalism and ill-informed patriotism. Long dead leaders like Abraham Lincoln are often jumbled together with Jesus in a pretty confusing way. They really practice a sort of generalized religion of Goodness that confuses politics, religion, nostalgia and soft rock music together in one murky born-again soup where everyone feels good. Sigh. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:14 PM I have great disdain for newspapers and more for pollsters. May I point out that this article we are reviewing is a poll reported in a newspaper. One question I have is in reference to misperception #2. Didn't the Bushites tell us (I'm asking-I'm not positive) that there was a link between Hussein and al Queda terrists? If so, the problem on that particular is not that the population is misled by the television media, or unable to comprehend what they have been properly told by the media, but is instead that they were lied to, causing confusion. If the President says there is a link between Hussein and Al Queda, and Fox reports that the President says there is a link between Hussein and Al Queda, and then some people believe there is a link between Hussein and al Queda, is the proper conclusion that the current generation of yanks is a population of morons? I don't think it follows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 03 - 03:46 PM In the end Bush did actually come out and admit that there was no evidence for any kind of link between Saddams and his followers and Al Qaida prior to the war (though, of course, there probably is now, thanks to Bush and Blair). But maybe the junk news media didn't give that as much coverage as they had the earlier times, when he implied pretty strongly that there was such a connection. It seesm fair to assume, as has been suggested earlier in the thread, that there is a deliberate attempt by some major media outlets to manipulate public opinion in a way that helps Bush. However I still feel you can only be manipulated in this kind of way if you actually want to be manipulated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Amos Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM 60 %??? Good lord, what a collectivity of wooly-headed followers. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,heric Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:05 PM I think I can buy that last line abut manipulation. However, the various subsets of populations would get very complicated. You would have the illiterate, and otherwise truly ignorant, populations who can be broken down into "want to be manipulated" versus don't want. Then you would have a population of those who are capable of discerning propoganda, but don't care to (in some instances.) Interesting results. I never want to believe that a President or Prime Minister would lie (Goddam that Clinton and the "that woman" speech.) People would want to believe they have outside support for an inevitable outcome (invasion.) People would want to believe that the invasion was morally justifiable (especially when it is being done in their name but without any control over it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 20 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM heric, your last few sentences say it all. It is easier to believe what one wants to believe, i.e. that everything is fine -- than to actually think critically. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: DougR Date: 20 Oct 03 - 10:41 PM Misophist's comment of October 8, 8:20 PM, is, IMO, a typical liberal's opinion of the thinking of the "rest" of the country. We don't agree with the liberal point of view, therefore we are pore old ignorant people. And some people wonder why dialogue between people of opposite views is so difficult to conduct. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:16 PM Its particularly difficult to conduct when one person wilfully, or ignorantly, completely misrepresents what the other has said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: GUEST,The Lesser Gods, Major Archetypes, and Archa Date: 20 Oct 03 - 11:23 PM Indeed, Doug. People from different backgrounds, with all the best intentions in the world, still tend to marginalize and belittle those different from themselves. To overcome this tendency requires great patience, compassion, and willingness to listen and get to know one another better. These attitudes are rare in the field of political discussion, but not completely unknown. They're even rarer in warfare. You will all have a good laugh about it someday in the spiritual regions, when you see what worthy opponents you made for each other and what a great, engrossing game it all was. It's an opportunity not to win...but to transform yourselves into a higher awareness. Because truly you are all One. And now...back to the debate! :-) (If you want it...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:22 AM Describing that post as "a typical liberal's opinion" was surely doing just the same thing as you accused misophist of doing, Doug. The implication that people outside big cities are inescapably ignorant and out of touch just doesn't stand up, as I pointed out in the post immediately following that one, and was backed up by others. On the other hand, it must surely be worrying to people of any political opinion, if there is evidence that a sizable majority of your population is as badly informed about important facts which are not in dispute, as is the case if that survey is to be believed. This would apply just as much if the politics were reversed, and all this had been happening under a Denocrat administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 03 - 11:40 AM As has happened, from time to time... I was intrigued by the fact that Toronto's very right wing newspaper, the Toronto Sun, has always supported any American military campaign anywhere with frothing and bloodthirsty enthusiasm....EXCEPT for the US-led Nato attacks on Serbia in the late 90's. They expressed extreme doubts and criticisms about that in a number of respects. Why? Because Bill Clinton, a Democrat whom they detested, happened to be president. If it had been a Republican president and he had dropped nuclear bombs on Serbia, the Sun would have been cheering all the way. That's the way it goes. People are more subjective than most of them are prepared to admit. By the way, it was about the only time I've ever agreed with the Sun about anything...I thought the Nato bombing of Belgrade was unnecessary and way out of line. I was amused that we DID agree for once, and thought "Well, it takes Bill Clinton to get the Sun on my side..." :-) (And I wasn't hugely anti-Clinton at the time...had very mixed feelings about the man...but to the Sun he was the Antichrist. So naturally they opposed anything he was connected with.) I believe the Sun, a Canadian newspaper, would support the invasion of Canada by the USA...at least if it was launched by a Republican president. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Metchosin Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:11 PM "The reason it's called the American Dream is you have to be asleep to believe it." -- George Carlin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 03 - 12:31 PM LOL!!! Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse would agree with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Willie-O Date: 21 Oct 03 - 10:11 PM Our friendly neighbourhood conservatives don't seem too inclined to engage in actual debate here...just snipe an' run! Wonder why? About the "link" between Saddam and Al-Quaeda. There was one piece of very surprising, possibly authentic evidence discovered in a Baghdad government office, which was allegedly found by a reporter for the (relatively liberal, or at least Liberal) Toronto Star. A credible source, and the discovery was made fresh on the liberation of Baghdad--if it was a put-up job, it was well done. But the reporter says the CIA was in the room and gone again before he found the document. Maybe that's why this specific incident was such a three-day wonder in the media... The document indicated that some sort of Al-Quaeda emissary spent a couple of weeks in Baghdad in 1999 and may have met and possibly discussed some kind of diplomatic relations between A-Q and the Saddam regime. bin Laden's name was "whited out" in several places! Subtle what. Of course, the enmity between those two groups is well known. There is no evidence that anything ever came of this visit, but you can call it a "link". Somebody went to Iraq and talked to somebody else. One single solitary contact, documented by one single paper record. By the same token, there have been lots of "links" between David Trimble and Gerry Adams but they don't exactly seem to be in each others' pockets, do they? Here's the CBC version of the story: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/26/saddam_osama030426 There were certainly lots of direct "links" between active Al-Quaeda members and American flying schools, but I don't see the U.S. air force bombing the flying schools into the stone age..."link" is a pretty weak word to be using, it's there because they can't prove any more substantial collaboration. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:17 PM The USA has succeeded before in causing deadly enemies to show a temporary interest in communicating and even cooperating...consider the case of North Vietnam and China! Let's face it, when Genghis Khan comes riding in you put aside your squabbles with your next door neighbours for a bit...and resume them at a later and more convenient date. Be that as it may, I don't think Saddam and Al-Queda ever had much in common aside from a shared hatred of the USA and Israel. They were on opposite sides of the Muslim playing field in the Middle East. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:07 PM Above, I made the statement, "The dumbing down' comes from laziness, lack of interest, and desire to be entertained rather than informed." After thinking it over, I'm afraid I was a bit harsh. When you consider the huge numbers of people who are working two jobs or working vast amounts of overtime just to keep ahead of the game, while at the same time trying to raise a family, they have neither the time nor the energy to sit around being philosopher kings. Tired and harried most of the time, if they read or watch the news at all, they have time only for headlines and sound-bites. This is grossly aggravated by the fact that what information they do get is slanted and often inaccurate. The fact that such a large percentage of the population believes that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 (I heard a woman in a "man-in-the-street interview" just yesterday say that she didn't like the fact that we went to war with Iraq, "but, after all, they attacked us first.") is an extraordinary indictment of the media. On top of this, many people don't see the connection between politics and their own lives. A bunch of old, fat, white guys arguing incessantly about economics and foreign policy and other things they don't really understand much about, and besides that, they're all a bunch of crooks anyway, and there's nothing you can do about them. They write the whole thing off as not worth bothering with, failing to realize that what these old, fat white guys do can have a direct effect on their lives. This, in turn, is an indictment of our educational system, which has been in the Dumpster for some time now (a situation that will not be improved by Bush promising "no child left behind," while continuing to cut funding for education). So there is some justification for the general public not being well informed. It doesn't excuse it, but it makes it easier to understand. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 03 - 06:16 PM Don- An explanation is not a justification. You were closer to being correct the first time 'round. Citizens have a responsibility to be informed. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM Well, we also need to keep in mind that the US (and its allies) have never recovered from Vietnam and the lies that were told to whip the masses up into warmongers. So it seems logical that this generation of whipped up warmongers find it less diffidult to beleive the lies than to confront the truth. We will not get fooled again? Well, lots of us haven't, but it seems that 60% got sucked in again... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 03 - 07:20 PM McGrath, et al, as Don Firth mentioned, a great many people in the US either work two jobs or both parents work fulltime. Is the same thing true in the UK and in Europe? They say that in this country the old stereotype of papa going out to work and mama staying home to bake cookies for their 2.5 children is no more. What is the situation in other countries? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:32 PM Greg, I was using the term "justification" in the sense of "an explanation for a certain action or belief." I did not say that it excuses it. I am constantly yelling about the responsibility of citizens to be well-informed. My point was that a vast portion of the citizenry is so busy just trying to make ends meet in today's economy that they have little time or energy left over to pay much attention to things outside their immediate sphere. What news they get usually comes from the car radio as they are commuting to work or trying to get to the day-care center in time to pick up the kid before they have to pay for an extra hour. If they have a chance to watch the evening news at all, it's probably the local news channel, where they can get a few national and international sound-bites, a little local news, the weather, and the sports. And the news they do pick up is questionable at best. Then into the sack to rest up for tomorrow's grind. Most people don't have the resources that I do, for example. I'm retired, so I have the leisure time to read books and magazines (I'm currently reading The Soul of Capitalism: Opening Paths to a Moral Economy by William Greider), listen to NPR, watch CSPAN and CSPAN2, and cruise through cyberspace and read stories from news services in different countries and comparing the veracity of the various reports. In an ideal world, we would all have the time and energy to be well-informed. In an ideal world, we would not have the Bush administration. In countries like France, as I understand it, there are laws preventing employers from requiring people to work more than thirty-five hours a week and they must be allowed five or six weeks of vacation per year. Damned civilized, those French! In these circumstances, there is no justification for not being a well-informed citizen. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 03 - 08:43 PM Good point, Ebbie! The average American is workin' his and her brains out for Boss Hog, just to stay a few steps behind. Choices of how time gets divied up are difficult and, sadly, a majority form their opinions not from real information, but sound bites which are fed to them like rats in Skinners box... So, like they say, garbage in, garbage out... And you already know the answer to the qiestion that you have posed about comparing the American worker's quality of life with the qualities of life of folks in other western populations... American workers are getting shafted by the corporations. The US is the only country in the western word that does not offer health care to its population. And with health insurance becoming more and more expensive it means that we Americans will have to work even longer on Boss Hog's widget plants to pay for it... Yeah, it is no wonder that the population doesn't have a clue... No time fir clues... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:17 PM Families where both parents are working fulltime to keep their heads above water are pretty well the norm here these days (I don't know the statistics, though it'd be easy enough to dig them out via the magic Net). And of course there are a very large number of one parent families where the mother (in most cases) is holding down a fulltime paid job as well as everything else. True enough, keeping in touch with the news, and even seeing it as relevant, can be pretty hard for overworked people. However, my hunch is that, in spite of this, a lot of overworked people do manage to do this - while a lot of people who aren't overworked don't. At least there is still ready access here to relatively honest and informative news bulletins on the main TV channels. Touch wood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Oct 03 - 09:59 PM A good many people come to Alaska to 'get away from it all'. In many cases I suspect that getting away includes having to worry about what the government is doing, both in Washington and in their own state. (It could be that is one reason for the low voter turnout, not just in Alaska but everywhere in the country.) Oddly enough, Alaskans elect some of the oddest people- talk about reactionary. Maybe it has to do with the parental vs. peer thing a previous thread linked to, maybe it's simply that they don't want to have to do any thinking about it at all. On occasion I get the urge to do the same- get away, that is, not the parental thing. The world seems to lurch and bumble along about the same whether I know about it or I don't. Maybe it's true that no one should read each newspaper until one year later- and then you'd see how many things you have survived? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Greg F. Date: 24 Oct 03 - 10:29 PM Looks like we're circling back to the observation that "Every country gets the government it deserves" and the related cliché that "Nothing worthwhile is accomlished without effort"- don't it? Whoops- gotta go! NASCAR's on! Nothing worth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oh ye generation of morons... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:16 PM I have never seen NASCAR. I gather, from visiting hobby shops, that it involves fast cars that are absolutely plastered with advertising roaring around a track and periodically creating a hideous accident while competing ruthlessly and frantically for big bucks and fame. Sort of like a microcosm of the capitalist ethic... |
