BS: Paradox and irony

Subject: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:54 AM

Why is it that people insist on misusing the term irony to refer to situations that are in no way ironic? Every now and again some thread will turn up talking about people not being able to understand irony and so forth - and in the ensuing exchanges it becomes clear that most of the examples of "irony" given aren't actually examples of irony at all.

For example if someone wins the lottery and drops down with a heart attack that's only too likely to be described as "ironic". Or if it turns out that some health food is in fact harmful, that'll get landed with the same word.

And what happens all the time is that the expression is used in a context where what is involved is accurately described as "paradoxical". Which is in a way the precise reverse of being ironic.

Irony means you say something, but mean the opposite, and intend your hearer to understand that (which is where it differs from lying.)

A paradox is when you say something which a listener will take as not being meant to be taken as true, but it is so meant. "War is the health of the state", for example.

Here's an article I found the other day which discusses all this at greater length than would fit in a post.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:09 AM

I don't think this is valid. People are using "ironic" here in the sense of tragic irony -- Someone thinks they are doing one thing, but the gods have different ideas (Oedipus for example). This is the universe saying one thing, and meaning another.

The one that bothers me -- speaking of tragedy -- is the misuse of tragedy. People are always saying something is tragic when they mean pathetic, i.e. full of sad emotion.

And don't get me started on decimate.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:17 AM

McGrath: I quite agree with you that someone winning the lottery, but being prevented from getting the benefits owing to a heart attack. is not ironic necessarily. It is just a piss-off. But if the news that the person won the lottery was the excitement that precipitated the heart attack, then we are definitely dealing with irony. To get highly technical, in terms of the historical meaning of the word: a man falling on a banana skin is not of itself ironic. Even if he threw the banana skin away himself, it is not necessarily ironic. It would only be ironic if he threw the banana skin down in order to make somebody else fall over, but ended up falling over on it himself.
   At least, that is how the term has been defined and used for a long time. One meaning is the "using words in the opposite sense from their literal meaning": like Mark Antony saying "Brutus is an honourable man" when we know he means the opposite. But irony also refers to a course of events that have a result which is opposite to thet expected, due to the operation of fate in a twisted way. So something that should make you happy, but actually makes you so happy that it kills you, is definitely ironic. That is a somewhat similar thing to paradox, but also different. The eseence of irony, in origin and usage, is "opposite", or disguising something so that it is completely different from its real self . And as you say, not at all the same thing as something vaguely disappointing, which is a kind of usage creeping in from America.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:22 AM

And specifically on the health food example: if something is marketed as a health food, and is actually toxic, that is definitely ironic. Particularly if it were to damage the person making the claim that it was good for you. But it wouldnt be at all ironic if you died from mistaking a poisonous toadstool for an adible mushroom. That would just be a tragedy. Though it would, of course, be ironic if the person who died of the poison actually made a living making TV programmes and writing books about the virtues of living on produce gathered from the wild.
Oooooh: doesnt it get complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:47 AM

Definitions of irony on the Web--which indicate to me that the purity of sense to which McGrath appeals is long since lost:

witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid"; "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Johathan Swift
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs; "the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


a trope that involves incongruity between what is expected and what occurs
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn


saying [or writing] one thing, whilst meaning the opposite
www.mantex.co.uk/samples/eng.htm


expression that comes across contrary to the intended meaning, often because the audience knows what the speaker does not.
rinkworks.com/words/linguistics.shtml


In literary criticism, the effect of language in which the intended meaning is the opposite of what is stated. The title of Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is ironic because what Swift proposes in this essay is cannibalism — hardly "modest."
www.galegroup.com/free_resources/glossary/glossary_im.htm


stating something by saying another quite different thing, sometimes its opposite. An example is Sir Thomas Wyatt's "And I have leave to go, of her goodness" from his "They flee from me."
www.creativestudios.com/lit/glossary2.html


a method of expression in which the intended meaning of the words is the direct opposite of their usual sense. Example: "The speaker was using irony when he said that the stupid plan was 'very clever.'" Irony can also mean a combination of circumstances or a result that is the opposite of what might be expected or considered appropriate.
www.humanities.eku.edu/Glossary.htm


the difference between how you might expect something to be and how it actually is, for example when the slaves in The Two Generals like the brother who believes in slavery more than the one who would set them free
www.longman.co.uk/tt_seceng/resources/glosauth.htm


The mythos (sense 2) of the literature concerned primarily with a "realistic" level of experience, usually taking the form of a parody or contrasting analogue to romance. Such irony may be tragic or comic in its main emphasis; when comic it is normally identical with the usual meaning of satire.
www.sil.org/~radneyr/humanities/litcrit/gloss.htm


At its most basic, a difference or gap between the presentation/representation of something and its reality. In other words, when what something appears to be and what it is are not the same. Irony can be engaged or detached: Engaged irony uses the gaps between reality and representation to make a point or expose something; detached irony exploits gaps for immediate effect, like humor, satire or surface criticism. Irony can also occur at different levels of a text; for instance, verbal irony would occur at the level of the word or sentence, where double meanings come into play; dramatic irony would occur at the level of the plot, where events and action are constructed in a way to take the reader in one direction while the reality is something else (a technique often found with 1st person unreliable narrators and 3rd person privileged narrators).
www.viterbo.edu/personalpages/faculty/jwood/vocabulary%20page.htm


the use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meeting
ww2.aps.edu/~apsedumain/CurriculumInstruction/glossary.htm


The use of language to express something quite different from or opposite to its literal meaning.
fajardo-acosta.com/worldlit/glossary.htm


The use of words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning; an expression marked by such a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning; incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.
www-relg-studies.scu.edu/facstaff/murphy/courses/sctr032/glossary.htm


techniques that involve surprising, interesting, or amusing contradictions
www.geocities.com/educationplace/poe/gl.htm


this means that something is the opposite of the meaning of the words, for example 'a fine mess'. 'Fine' usually means something good, but in this case it means a bad mess.
elc.polyu.edu.hk/advdicts/glossary.htm


a difference between the actual result of a sequence of events and the expected results
www.brawleyhigh.org/writingstyleguide/glossary.htm


a situation or statement characterized by a significant difference between what is expected or understood and what actually happens or is meant. See cosmic irony and dramatic irony. Close Window
www.wwnorton.com/introlit/glossary.htm


The suggestion of the opposite, or nearly the opposite, as in saying that being caught in a freezing downpour is "delightful."
www.womens-studies.ohio-state.edu/pedagogy/Writing/glossary.htm


is a result different from the expected.
www.homepages.dsu.edu/jankej/Writing/glossary.htm


A literary device that uses contradictory statements to reveal a reality different from what appears to be true.
ctl.clayton.edu/English/glossary.htm


, saying something, but meaning the opposite. E.g., "that Mustang Cobra is really bad." Usually irony is not deceptive; the audience is supposed to realize what the speaker really means. But irony can also be used to keep some of the audience, those who don't "get it," in the dark. Because Socrates used irony this way, he is often called "the ironic man," famous for "Socratic irony." Some have argued that Paul also deserves the title.
courses.smsu.edu/mdg421f/reli321/glossary.htm


A device by which a writer expresses a meaning contradictory to the stated or ostensible one. (used to achieve special rhetorical or artistic effects)
www.english.uga.edu/cdesmet/class/engl4830/work/projects/brent/chardef.htm


[noun]: incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs [Characterization]
www.southlakems.org/AnimalFarm/DanielleAmanda/glossary.htm


two separate and contrasting levels of meaning embedded in one message
www.migrant.org/assets/literature/literary_glossary.cfm


a general definition: suggesting more than is actually said saying one thing and meaning another (verbal irony) seeing contradictions between the way things appear and what they really represent (an ironic world view), and exposing those contradictions (satirical irony) recognizing that human beings are nothing more than the playthings of fate or God - revealing the Catch-22 nature of human existence, such as the habit of striving for an ideal which cannot be met (cosmic irony)
gs.fanshawec.on.ca/online/engl286/glossary.htm


A striking contrast between the apparent and the real situation or between what a character says and what the reader knows.
www.crown.edu/humanities/Wheatonj/eng132/Terms%20-%20Short%20Stories.htm


the use of words to express something different from and often quite opposite to their literal meaning
www.oswego.edu/~thoffman/semiotics/assignments/assignment04/activity_1.html

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:49 AM

The grenade exploded near me, and now my leg is very irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:51 AM

NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. i·ro·nies
1a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See synonyms at wit1. 2a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain). b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic. 3. Dramatic irony. 4. Socratic irony.
ETYMOLOGY: French ironie, from Old French, from Latin rna, from Greek eirneia, feigned ignorance, from eirn, dissembler, probably from eirein, to say. See wer-5 in Appendix I.

USAGE NOTE: The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply "coincidental" or "improbable," in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of ironically in the sentence In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentenceIronically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:09 AM

Quite a lot of Amos's examples do fall within the "purist" definition. The rest illustrate what I was complaining about.

Tragic irony is basically about the observer seing the contrast between what someone thinks they are doing and what they are actually doing, and with Oedipus the observer literally means the people watching the play. Taking "the Gods" as being the observers I suppose it's a logical enough extention of that to use it even in a context where there are no human observers.

A lot of Amos's examples do actually fall within the purist definition. Where they don't I think that it is still worth resisting the extension of the term to mean anything that is sligtly odd or unexpected. Or where there is a more accurate word, such as paradoxical in this case: "the difference between how you might expect something to be and how it actually is, for example when the slaves in The Two Generals like the brother who believes in slavery more than the one who would set them free"

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:49 AM

Chambers' Dictionary: a condition in which one seems to be mocked by fate or the facts

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:59 AM

I don't see people misusing the word 'ironic' in the examples, for instance in the health food example. This use is well within one of the dictionary definitions cited above. You may complain that now the dictionaries allow more meanings than in the old times but to use the word 'misuse' for a meaning allowed by dictionaries stretches a bit the sense of this word.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:20 PM

I like weerover's definition. It circumvents the "stage ploy" concept that makes 'irony' a tool for deception and/or distraction (a 'between humans' kind of thing...) and brings it to what I would call it's essential meaning... the heavenly mockery that fate provides... or karma if you will...

I feel that it's profoud meaning is prostituted when it is used as a staging vice for the manipulation of human relations... Hmmmmm? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM

Different places, different dictionaries.

There's always this question how far dictionaries should be prescriptive and how far descriptive, and there is no fixed answer. However the fact that a definition appears in a dictionary, or an online glossary, does not in itself guarantee that it is an "accurate" definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:24 PM

McGrath, I take your point and I am on occasion (I'm told) a little too traditionalist about words and their meanings. However, some evolution has to be allowed for - if we're going to be absolutely accurate, the original meaning of irony was "the Socratic method of discussion by professing ignorance"

wr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:56 PM

Not only 'different places, different dictionaries' but also 'different times different dictionaries' (even at the same place). Languages live and that means change.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:09 PM

Lots of definitions of irony but I don't see the problem as posed. A paradox is completely different:
par·a·dox   
n.
A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" (Mary Shelley).
An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
A statement contrary to received opinion.


[Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter sing. of paradoxos, conflicting with expectation : para-, beyond; see para-1 + doxa, opinion (from dokein, to think. See dek- in Indo-European Roots).]
para·doxi·cal adj.
para·doxi·cal·ly adv.
para·doxi·cal·ness n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

My favourite quote on the word is:
A pig is a paradox; it must be killed before it can be cured

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:26 PM

Agreed. But balance in everything, and this is, I suggest,the kind of word where there should be more resistance to change than in many other cases. Generally speaking I am in favour of going with the flow of spoken language.

However I'd make an exception here. If it loses its precision, it will be very hard to find an adequate substitute, and the language will be poorer.

It is said that when a language dies a way of seeing the world dies, and to a lesser extent something like that can happen when a word loses a precise meaning, without being replaced. Without the word it can even become impossible to have the concept expressed by the word.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:28 PM

Mine:

Any paradox can be paradoctored.

Robert Heinlein


A

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:30 PM

Couldnt agree more, McGrath. Look what happened when people started misusing the word "folk" to include singer-songwriter stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:32 PM

My previous post is an example of irony(purist definition), though not paradox.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:34 PM

You mean some people DON'T know the meaning of irony?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM

That paradox,
That most ingenious paradox!
We've quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
But none to beat this paradox!
A paradox, a paradox,
A most ingenious paradox!
Ha! ha! ha! ha! ha!
Ha! ha! ha! this paradox!


For some ridiculous reason, to which, however, I've no desire to be disloyal,
Some person in authority, I don't know who, very likely the Astronomer Royal,
Has decided that, although for such a beastly month as February, twenty-eight days as a rule are plenty,
One year in every four his days shall be reckoned as nine and-twenty.
Through some singular coincidence -- I shouldn't be surprised if it were owing to the agency of an ill-natured fairy--
You are the victim of this clumsy arrangement, having been born in leap-year, on the twenty-ninth of February;
And so, by a simple arithmetical process, you'll easily discover,
That though you've lived twenty-one years, yet, if we go by birthdays, you're only five and a little bit over!


(From "The Pirates of Penzance")

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Cluin
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 03:44 PM

I found it ironic that Alanis Morissette recorded a song called Ironic without ever looking the word up in the dictionary to see what it meant.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:05 PM

OK... if I must stand corrected... ;^)

Is it really true, weerover... that Socratic Irony is the original? Yikes! Methinks it's time to do a little research... Sounds alot like 'Sophistry' to me right of the bat... well... thanks for the eye opener, and I'll get back to you after I've read up on it... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:50 PM

OK... heres a start... Encyclo Britan

IRONY, a form of speach in which the real meaning is concealed or contradicted by the words used. It is particularly employed for the purpose of mockery and contempt. The Greek word was used for an understatement in the nature of dissimulation. It is especially exemplified in the assumed ignorance which Socrates adopted as a method of dialectic, the "Socratic Irony". In tragedy, what is called "Tragic Irony" is a device of making a character use words which mean one thing to him and another to those aquainted with the real issue.

My question... is it appropriate to use "Tragic Irony" off stage? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:06 PM

Actually, the definition of "Socratic irony" is very controversial. Until writers like Gregory Vlastos got involved, it was assumed that Socrates was assuming ignorance, but that he had a "real truth" hidden away, and was entrapping his interlocutors to make them look foolish. Many analysts of Socrates currently think that Socrates was not feigning ignorance (and thereby being ironic when he said he knew nothing), but actually engaging in a kind of opening up of himself -- and his interlocutor -- to the search for mutual truth (in the course of which both would look foolish for a long time). This involves differentiating between the early and later Socratic dialogues, and Plato's understanding or misunderstanding of what Socrates was about.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:17 PM

Since virtually everything we know or think we know about Socrates is mediated through Plato it's a bit hard to try drawing distinctions between his version of Socrates and the hypothetical real Socrates.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:58 PM

You're obviously technically right about that, McGrath, but I think when you read Plato's version of Socrates and then Plato writing as himself, you do get an impression of two distinct personalities. So, while Plato will obviously have modifed the reality of Socrates to suit his own ends, we are still getting a strong impression of a man who is quite unlike Plato. And the reason I am inclined to think that Plato is being fairly accurate is that the Socrates he paints is a lot more likable than Plato himself comes across. And if Plato was being dishonest, you might expect the difference to be the other way about.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:24 PM

I think it highly plausible that Socrates was not actually trying to 'trick' his students (and certainly not for self aggrandizements), but was actually trying to 'draw them out' so he could begin his teachings from the peripheries of their specific understandings... another way to look at it is that... perhaps Socrates was not 'playing dumb' and laying low so as to attack his opponent for the Sophist version of dominance that he so hated... but was in fact using a listening technique that enabled him to more effectively reach his students... each at their own level... ?waddyathink? ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:42 PM

The statement below is true.


The statement above is false.



@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

The statement below is false.


The statement above is false.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 09:15 AM

I'm not implying Plato being dishonest in his portrayal of Socrates, but pointing out that there aren't really any grounds to think that the limited other sources are closer to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:17 PM

Why do posters on Mudcat who use satire or irony in their messages,invariably find the need to explain that irony by including ** or smiley faces, or even *grin*
I have always believed that if you need to explain irony to your victims you have failed miserably.
I dont care whether every single person gets the joke or not. I know that somewhere, someone will have a quiet smile....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:49 PM

Irony in the literary sense is rare in folk songs, but I think the following is a delicious example:

Excuse me, Sir, the maiden said, for being out so late;
For if my parents heard of this, then sad would be my fate:
My father is a minister, a good and virtuous man;
My mother is a Methodist -- I do the best I can.

She had a dark & roving eye, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:03 PM

Ake:

Those who know their posts can be ambiguous and can hurt if taken awry use smileys to clarify their intent because they care not to hurt unnecessarily. Not everyone does, of course, but you asked about those who go to the trouble. Not because our satire is insufficient, or our confidence in it low, but to avoid paining innocent bystanders. We also appreciate that not everyone is subtle enough to avoid pain on their own. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:23 PM

Very nicely put Amos :>(

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:39 PM

Ouch! ...;^)

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 08:42 PM

It's ironic that paradox is sort of the opposite of irony :(

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 01:26 PM

I think you'll find it's generally Americans who use the smileys and so forth.

This side of the Atlantic, unless you say you actually mean something that could be controversial, it tends to be assumed it's meant ironically. My impression is that in America it tends to be the other way round - if there's no signal that a remark is ironically meant, it tends to be taken as meant seriously.

Hence the widespread misinterpretation, which expresses itself as "Americans don't understand irony".

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 02:42 PM

Working out what was Plato's and what was Socrates' is, of course, a difficult and occasionally paradoxical task. I think it is pretty clear that Plato was puzzled by Socrates, and tried various solutions to deal with Socrates' serene assumption that his method (sometimes referred to as antipeirasmic) was appropriate for the working towards the truth. These solutions changed over time, and one can see an evolution in their manner. The other sources at least give us some evidence that Socrates wasn't just a figment of Plato's imagination.

yours,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 04:24 PM

Number one rule for browsing any part of the Internet: bring your sense of humour along for the ride... if it can be taken as a joke, it probably was meant that way and probably should be anyway. Getting your gonads in a knot over some words on a screen ain't worth it, in my experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 04:48 PM

I am often sent through an uncomfortable loop by inept efforts at irony -- if I respond to the irony, I am forwarding bad humor, and encouraging mediocrity. So oftentimes, if I respond at all, I will ignore the irony as not up to my standards. If this earns me the reputation of not understanding irony, perhaps I will be spared in the future!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 04:57 PM

The important thing isn't to respond to the irony, but to recognise it.

Of course one way to respond to something which is intended ironically is to take it at face value, but to do so ironically.   

This can get complicated. Especialy when other people join in

In the context of the Mudcat, it can get even more complicated when a post comes from an unfamiliar person, especially from a nameless GUEST, because that means that it can be virtually impossible to know whether a remark is intended ironically or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Paradox and irony
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM

Yeah, what he said.