BS: English To English Dictionary

Subject: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 12:57 PM

Now, don't get your knickers in a twist. In America, that would mean something quite different than in England. Same word, different meaning. Knickers over here were what I wore as a kid... they only came in corduroy, and were outer pants that went down to about the knee with an elastic band at the bottom. Corduroy knickers in England would not only be uncomfortable and bulky... they'd be downright kinky.

Now, I hear that cavorting on the davenport, while a delightful passtime over here, would be rather acrobatic and even dangerous in England. Over here, a davenport is a couch is a divan (or a studio couch) while it is a small, slant-topped table in England. Ouch!

Words come in and out of fashion in both countries, and they often date us. Sometimes, they cause confusion and misunderstanding, or more often, just quizzical looks.

The Opry over here is the Grand Old Opry, not the Opera, with "opera glasses" Opry glasses are usually filled with Miller.

Then, there are brand names like Marmite (which I thought was a small, weasel-like animal at first) or Frigidaire, over here. When I was a kid, all refrigerators were Frigidaires, because it was such a popular brand name. Same with Kleenex... I didn't hear the term facial tissue until I was in High School (which was probably something else in England. Isn't Gymnasium a term for lower Elementary School in England? Or is it Germany?

Life used to be simpler. If you had a cold, you took an aspirin (not a tylenol or an Excedrin or all the other pain killers) kept a box of Kleenex at your side, and if you wanted to drink cold liquids, you went to the "fridge." Peanut Butter was either Skippy or Peter Pan.

And God help you if you go to another English-speaking country. Better bring your English to English Dictionary.

Got any other words that passed in favor, or mean radically different things in different countries? Or don't mean anything, as far as you're concerned?

Leave a note on the chiffarobe, or the credenza, or the day bed..

Jerry-mander

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Schantieman
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:09 PM

Well, there's Durex, which I believe is Australian for Sellotape. Bloody painful, I should think, and nowhere near as effective.

And vacuum cleaners are generally called Hoovers over here - probably because they never dam' well work properly.

I'll get my coat.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:23 PM

Billy boots
Gum boots
Rubber boots

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM

Brucie - don't you mean wellies? (in the UK they are Wellington boots, or wellies).

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM

Past threads on This Topic = Old Craic?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:36 PM

Sellotape = Scotch tape

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:40 PM

And Scotch tape is a brand name, just like Kleenex, even though all brands of clear adhesive tape are called "Scotch" tape..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:43 PM

Pissed = Angry (US)
Pissed = Drunk (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:52 PM

Hoods and bonnets, chicks and birds,
Quite the mess, these English words!
Leaves us gaping, old or young,
Divided by a common tongue.

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:54 PM

pissed = either angry *OR* drunk - at least where I grew up in the states.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:54 PM

Stuffed = eat too much (US--particularly applicable to this week's Thanksgiving holiday)

I hear it means something a bit different in the UK :)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:59 PM

From recent threads:

porked (US) = shagged (UK)
whole step (US) = whole tone (UK)
half step (US) = semi-tone (UK)

And you could write a book about car parts!

bonnet (UK) = hood, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:01 PM

SRS - re: stuffed

again had a *distinctly* different connotation (in ADDITION to the common) where I grew up.

Sometimes TONE changes meaning...

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:13 PM

When my wife and I went to take Colin (ColK) to the airport when he was flying back to England, I said that I'd put his suitcase in the trunk of the car. That's another foreign English word to him. If I remember correctly, you Brits call the "trunk" of the car the "boot?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:20 PM

Then there's that whole pants vs. trousers potential embarrassment for North American visitors to the British Isles.

Pants = Trousers (North America)

Pants = Underpants (Britain)

Shorts = Short Trousers (Britain)

Shorts = Underpants or Short Trousers (North America)


And "bum", as an anatomical part, is considered a rude word over there.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:27 PM

"bum" is rude WHICH "over there"?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:29 PM

More car parts:

gudgeon pin (UK) = wrist pin (US)
propeller shaft (UK) = drive shaft (US)
cam follower (UK)(not to be confused with cathode follower) = valve lifter
petrol (UK) = gasoline (US)
saloon (UK) = sedan (US) : This one could really cause problems!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:51 PM

In canada there is a mixture of these terms.. I wear wellies, say arse not ass, a vacuum cleaner is a hoover, a tie is a slepper, and so on. Guess it just depends on where you come from but a vest is still an undershirt and wankers are the same all over.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 04:38 PM

We don't have wankers in the U.S. We believe in the inherent dignity of the individual and a couple of other forgotten things...I forget what they are, but they are very important...but basically we have a wanker-free nation throughout the 50 states, excluding the District of Columbia...


A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

A packet of fags = 20 cigarettes (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:24 PM

Oh, I nearly forgot.

Fanny = Backside, usually female (US)
Fanny = Female pudendum (UK)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 05:26 PM

And now I know that a bathroom (or a "can", or the "head" over here) is a loo in England.

I finally understand what the song Skip to my Loo is all about...

And over here, why do women refer to the bathrooms as "The Little Ladies room" or the "Little Boys Room?" As in, "I'll be right back; I have to go visit the Little Ladies Room." Visit? Of course... it's a necessary place to visit but no one would want to live there..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:08 PM

I shared an office with an American colleague for a couple of years. We had the usual "misunderstandings" over requesting to borrow his rubber etc but I was completely taken aback at being asked to purchase a sample bottle for another colleagues birthday.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:08 PM

Pissed off = angry
Pissed up = drunk (a piss-up is an opportunity to drink heavily)

So you can see where that comes from.

On the subject of car parts we have 'bonnet' for what in the USA is I believe the 'hood'. Now isn't that just cute and British?

I suppose that in the British Isles and other places where English is spoken we understand more of the Americanisms because of our contact with US films, TV and books. Anyway it's time for me to roll a fag (which is commonspeak here for making a cigarette).

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM

Vest= Undershirt(UK)
Vest= Waistcoat (US)
Suspenders= Garter belt (UK)
Suspenders=Braces(US)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:05 PM

While over here it is a highly frowned upon abuse against those of differing sexual persuasions....

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:08 PM

Aspirin, itself, was once a trade name for acetylsalicylic acid. Companies are far more alert for infringements on trademarks than they used to be, I believe. As mentioned above, Frigidaire, Kleenex, Scotch tape, Hoover, Xerox, Jello and many, many more have become generic names for specific products, and it's common to hear people saying 'Our xerox is a Pitney-Bowes'. Or, 'Pick up some kleenex at the store, but don't get the expensive brand'. Companies that have successfully insinuated their product with great effort and expense into our culture are not happy about the takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:11 PM

IMHO it would take a fool to object to his brand becoming a generic and widely known noun such as Xerox. Sure you lose some sales to brand confusions, but you probably garner many more because of the implicit "genuineness" of your product. Why fight that?

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:30 PM

Oh, goody! Maybe someone from the UK can explain one of the ways in which the word "surgery" is used over there. In the US "surgery" usually means a medical procedure. Occasionally it may mean the place where the procedure takes place (though "operating room" or just "doctor's office" are much more common).

I once read a book written by a British author in which "surgery" was used in a non-medical sense. It seemed to mean something like "office hours" during which elected officials meet with constituents. Is it just a matter of "surgery" meaning "doctor's office" getting applied to the offices of other professionals as well as doctors?

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 07:39 PM

UK community doctors operate from "surgeries". Politicians also run "surgeries" where you go and tell them what's wrong, just like at the Doctor's

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 10:27 PM

Pharmacist (US) = Chemist (UK)

Internal pickup in acoustic guitar (US) = bug (UK)

"Bloody" in US simply means someone or something has blood on it. In UK it appears to be one of the nastiest dirty words - for no reason I can see - i. e., calling someone a "bloody idiot" in UK is as bad as, or worse than, calling him a "goddam f***ing idiot" in US. (Of course, I always supposed that if I must be an idiot, I'd rather be a f***ing idiot than a non-f***ing idiot, but I digress.)

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:25 PM

Hoover? but what if your Hoover is an Electrolux? or Kirby? or Miehle?

Hoover is a brand name....(and is the verb form "hoove"?) *grin*...

when analyzed, some UK terms make more sense (petrol, for one..not 'gas', which means several other things) and some US terms make more sense (panties(a diminutive generic)for ladies brief undies, rather than 'knickers', which has roots in a family name Knickerbocker) ..but folks aren't really interested in making sense, are they? They would rather just speak, eat and dress as they learned as a child. Yes...me, too ..it's hard to break out of the mould.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:44 PM

My Dad told me how a neighbour's mother was over visiting from England and requested that on his way out to work the next morning, he "Come by and knock me up, love..."

But being Canadian, he knew what she really meant. But then again....

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:46 PM

The boys in Wyoming roll fags, while the lads in Bristol go out Paki-bashing. Eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:11 AM

chad = (US) some evil sort of obfuscating ballot thingy used to confuse the results in an election, thereby allowing the governor of the offending state to keep playing now-you-see-it-now-you-don't with the votes until the duly appointed-by-another-relative's beaurocrats can step in and hand the top office of the nation over to yet another relative while the general populace stands by wondering what the fuck just happened

chad = (Canada) a term denoting a thing or state of affairs which is really supremely excellently cool and choice...
"Did you see Steve's new bike? With the black suede banana seat, extra high sissy bar, butterfly handlebars and really small front tire? It's soooooooo chad, man!"

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:09 AM

Clew, lift, pram, lorry, hire car, motorbike, mould, bangers, and dirty dick, and...

I love English as she is spoke by the British. Usually I have absolutely no trouble understanding what is being said because of the context within which it is being used. So when someone is pushing a pram I know almost instinctively that:

It's a Monty Python sketch!!

Our PBS local is really a BBC outlet.

Most "Englishisms" make perfect sense, pram - perambulator. Still I question SOME words. aluminum is NOT spelled al-u-minium and it is missle NOT mis-sile.

But, then, the poor dears over the pond have a Queen and while I'm sure she is a lovely person, she certainly doesn't know how to dress.

CB (irreverent as usual)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:21 AM

Our school uniform was a baggy, sleeveless outer garment with a yoke neck, and box pleats. There was a small breast pocket with the school crest on it.
It was worn over a white blouse, belted, with knee socks and loafers or oxfords. In the U.S., the unlovely garment we wore is called a jumper.
I know English girls wore them too. The Belles of St. Trinnians dressed just like us, except they wore ties. (And our headmistress didn't look at all like Alistair Simms.) But I don't know what they were called, because in England a jumper is a sweater, not a dress.

I found a uniform from our old school at a rummage sale. I sent it to my sister for her birthday. I'm looking forward to her response.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 02:12 AM

A tale floated my way once of a journalist who was caught up in a coup somewhere in Africa; it may have been Idi Amin's takeover of Uganda. For a few weeks after the coup, scowling troops stopped all vehicles on the main roads, ordered the drivers and passengers out, then made them take off their hats and shoes. They examined them without saying why and handed them back to their owners. Eventually, the hack summoned up the courage to ask them why they were performing this odd procedure. The Corporal in charge said, "We got written orders from HQ. We got to stop all cars and check all bonnets and boots".

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 02:13 AM

There were some Americans over for EXPO 88 - in 1988 - and I was walking with a lady who saw a stuffed Dingo in a window display.

She: Is that dingo stuffed?

Me: He don't look too well.


Robin

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Hrothgar
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:46 AM

Knocked up - exhausted (Australia, possibly UK?)
Knocked up - pregnant (US)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:12 AM

I remember hearing "Knocked Up" in the 1960's or 70's as an Australian expression meaning pregnant.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jeanie
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:20 AM

LadyJean - the "jumper" you wore as your school uniform was called a "gym slip" over here in the UK. I wore one, too, in a lovely shade of cabbagey green (plus blouse, tie, blazer with braid in house colours, hat with tassel on the back if you were a prefect, etc. etc.) Unlike your school in the US, though, our headmistress most definitely *did* look like Alastair Sim !!

- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:30 AM

I found a book at a car boot sale, on English English for Americans, i.e. if you're from the US, how to make yourself understood and avoid embarrasment in the UK. Written by an ex-pat Yank lady,it includes a big glossary, much of which was sent her by correspondents from all over the British Isles. It includes quite a few words and expressions I've never heard of, and I think one or two of her "pals" may have played a joke on her.

I'll try and find it out tonight.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:01 AM

More car parts.

Wing = Fender
Windsceen = Windshield
Backlight = Rear windshield (LAMPS produce light, lights let it in)
Tyre = Tire
Gearstick = Shifter

Ever part of a car has it's specific name, and not many are common, from my reading of American Mags

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:22 AM

I thought "bumper"="fender"? And "gearstick" is what I call "gear lever" (and "lever" rhymes with "beaver"!)
Engine=motor
Main beam=high beam
Carburettor=carburator (or carburater?)

What do you US-ers call: radiator (and grill), dipped headlights, door pillars, dipstick, head gasket, cylinder head, gearbox, con[necting]-rod, camshaft, timing chain, fuel injection, spare wheel, accelerator (assuming the correct technical name is not "gas pedal"), demister ... anything else?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 08:08 AM

A car "boot" over here is a security item you attach to your steering whell which locks it in place so nobody can steal it. There is also a device called a "boot" that parking lots threatened to use if you parked illegally, which locked the wheel of your car so it wouldn't turn.

And when they sing, "Shake Your Booty" as they did in disco days, they wasn't talking about shaking your trunk. It's lower down in the anatomy.. Did they really sing "Shake your bum?" in Australier?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 08:20 AM

radiator = often shortened to rad.

dipped headlights = low beams (also running lights)

full headlights = hi beams

gearbox = transmission or tranny

demister = defogger (or defroster in Canada)

spare wheel = spare tire or spare

connecting rod = piston rod

Everything else is pretty much the same.


What do you call "wipers" and "pissers"?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 08:35 AM

Bloody isn't really that bad a swear word and gets used quite regularly in English conversations - at leat in the circles I travel in. It's actually quite mild in comparison to some of the more high powered words, although I suppose, as with any expletive, it's the emphasis with which a word is pronounced that adds to its efficacy. i can't think of many people who would be shocked by the use of bloody - which, I believe, is a shortening of 'by our lady'.

I think that the word gap is narrowing with the spread of films and TV programmes, particularly from the States. sooner or later we'll probably all end up talking the same language, but will it be Chinese or Spanish?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 11:40 AM

No, Jacqui, "bloody" is like "lousy": it acquired its expletive value as an extension of its literal meaning. Swift used it in a letter to Vanessa (which I can't find; but here's an example in a poem of his -- use search to find it). This suggests it was a "respectable" expletive in those days and suitable for use by "nice" people, but later became disreputable by its increasing use by the hoi-polloi. (Probably!)

Shame -- the "by Our Lady" story is a good one!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Merritt
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:19 PM

Re "shake your booty"..and then there was Frank Zappa's late-70s album "Sheik Yerbouti"

- Merritt

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: bill\sables
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:19 PM

As an Englishman I have traveled to most states in the USA and found that I can understand almost all of the English spoken including accents. I find there is not so much difference in accents between San Francisco and New York or between New Orleans and Boozeman Montana as there is in England. I think it would be puzzling for an American to understand accents during a British trip taking in Cornwall, London, Birmingham, Norwich, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle and Glasgow.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:45 PM

re: 'hire' as in hire car...is this used for other situations in the UK where one gains temporary use of something in exchange for cash? Are apartments ummm.. flats hired? In the USA hire refers to accepting a person for employment, while a car is 'rented'....Is rent used at all in the UK?

and is the term 'cab' used when wishing a taxi? We in the US use taxi, cab, or taxicab almost interchangably, with 'cab' sort of being common street usage in many big cities.(We seem to like the shortest possible word or slang for many terms...we seem to even choose shorter spelling versions..'color', 'colour'..)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 01:09 PM

Bill, I can tell you've travelled widely in the US by your use of their mis-spelling of the word 'travelled' :-)

Jerry, if the loo (UK) is the bathroom (US), what in hell's name do you call the place you go to for a bath? In the UK it's The Bathroom - logical, no? In the UK we also occasionally call the place where you take a leak The Bog, The Slash-House or The Wazzer (or Wazzerie if you're posh).

And in case you're wondering what 'Posh' is, it means 'Upper-Class'. The story goes that, in the old days of travel by steamer between Blighty and The Orient, because of the position of the sun the cabins on the Starboard (i.e. right-hand) side of the ship were hottest on the outward journey and on the Port (i.e. left-hand) side on the return. The upper-class passengers could afford to pay extra for the cooler Port-side cabins on the outward journey and Starboard-side ones on the return - hence the word 'P-O-S-H' (Port Outward, Starboard Home' was applied to them. At least that's what they say, no doubt some smart-ass (US) (sorry, arse (UK)!) will tell me its a load of manure (UK) - shit (US)!

Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:16 PM

We had an overheated debate about an e-mail on e-cailidh which was basically chastising us for calling English Country Dances as English Ceilidhs - how dare we - it is a Scottish word. This was from a third or fourth generation American. You can imagine the tennet of the rightous on the subject of spelling and English (UK) (HUH?) spell correctors.

Personally I like the words Fleadh or Twmpath - much more cashe these days - don't ya know?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 03:21 PM

Johnny:

I had to go to the Brits -- the OED Web site in fact -- to find this:

The story goes that the more well-to-do passengers travelling      to and from India used to have POSH written against their bookings, standing      for 'Port Out, Starboard Home' (indicating the more desirable cabins, on the      shady side of the ship). Unfortunately, this story did not make its appearance until the 1930s,       when the term had been in use for some twenty years, and the word does not       appear to have been recorded in the form 'P.O.S.H.', which would be expected       if it had originated as an abbreviation. Despite exhaustive enquiries by       the late Mr George Chowdharay-Best, researcher for the OED, including       interviews with former travellers and inspection of shipping company documents,       no supporting evidence has been found.

Sorry, mate!

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 04:55 PM

Spike Milligan in The Goons created "Sheik Rattle Nroll"

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:04 PM

Bill D - Actually, the reason that you Yanks spell words like 'colour' wrong is all down to a violent Anglophobe, Noah Webster of Dictionary fame, who decided all the spellings ought to be standardized. So naturally he picked the version that the British didn't use wherever possible!

As for 'rent', you would may either rent or hire a car (though the latter is probably moer common), but you would certainly rent a house, flat, or video! Curious, though, you would hire a video player, rather than rent it. We also have the concept of hire-purchase, not rent-purchase.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:20 PM

"Booty" I suspect is a variant pronunciation of "botty" (short for "bottom"), though there may also be an association with the alternative meaning of treasure.

As Amos says, the "Posh" story is nonsense. Widespread use of acronyms is a relatively recent phenomenon, & incorrect back formations of a number of words (such as "fuck") now exist.

Another recent occurence is back formation of words by adding or subtracting prefixes to reverse meaning. Usually this is incorrect usage. By way of example: Dis/gruntled - both words mean unhappy, irregardless doesn't suddenly become "full of consideration", nor does "dischuffed" become unhappy ("chuffed", in any case, has reversed it's meaning in the last 50 years, my dad remembered it as meaning angry, rather than pleased, when 'e were a lad...).

Often the supposed negative on the front of a word isn't any such thing. Instead, it's an intensive, so that "disgruntled" actually means "really gruntled" i.e. really pissed (off, that is! *g*). In this instance, to reverse the meaning you would probably have to say ungruntled or, more accurately, anti-gruntled. On the other hand, you could just stop being a pretentious pillock & simply use merry, happy, cheerful, gay, jolly, glad, or any one of many other perfectly good words to describe your positive mood!

(Not that I'm above using gruntled myself, but I normally use it in its correct context, not least because it confuses people! {Evil Grin})

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:21 PM

Now I can guess why fawcet gained currency in the colonies

You see a fawcett in English (UK) is a wooden tap. Which is driven in to a barrel by tapping. While the pioneers carried water in barrels us sophisticates had the stuff piped in and the flow was regulated by stop cocks. (remember them?) Now the real puzzle is why were they called cocks?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Raedwulf
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:36 PM

It's faucet (which comes from middle Fr., whereas "tap" is English), Red. Fawcett is a surname.

A cock is, amongst other meanings, a device for regulating liquid flow. As a verb, most of its meanings revolve around "to turn, tip, or stick up". I reckon that's influenced or inspired the noun. In most/all cases a cock is a simple on/off, up/down device. So it's either turned up or turned down - 'cocked' one way or t'other.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 05:50 PM

There's a wonderful song called "The Widow Who Keeps The Cock Inn" - from Pills to Purge Melancholy, I think.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: LadyJean
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:10 AM

And then, course there are the regional dialects. Scots would know what a Pittsburgher meant if she said "redd up". But they*d be confused by th Pittsburgh definition of neb. Here, a neb is a snoop.
Thorns are jaggers, baby chickens are peeps, rubber bands are gum bands, and yinz is the plural of you. The clerk at McCrory's said, "Yinz is really evil aint ya?" when we bought my friend Emily a very short, very red nightie with fringe.
Jeannie, our school uniform was green too.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: s&r
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 04:39 AM

Aluminium is aluminium. Aluminum is American usage.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: s&r
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:03 AM

Elevator - used in shoes to make you look taller.
Flat - apartment
Tart - derogatory term for woman
Bird - woman
Traffic jam - gridlock
First Floor - the one above ground level (called the ground floor)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: muppett
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:23 AM

UK Bum bag
US Fanny bag

UK Rubber = the thing you use rub out mistakes you have made with a pencil

US Rubber = a Contraceptive

The Expression 'to loose your Cherry'
UK = you had a cherry & now you've lost it
US = you've lost your virginity

The implement you use to turn water on/off
UK = A tap
US = A fawcett

A Faggot

UK = A delicacy
US = A gay person

To play crap

UK = Some who plays sub standard
US = a Card game

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 06:33 AM

Jerry - your question:
Isn't Gymnasium a term for lower Elementary School in England? Or is it Germany?

In Germany gymnasium is the secondary school qualifying for University. In my prime it was classical (Latin, English, Greek and one or two more modern languages in the last years, Hebrew at will for future ministers) or modern (sciences, English first, less Latin, no Greek).
Now the classical branch is abandoned, but for qualifying you still need 9 years (5th to 13th) after 4 years of elementary school.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:42 AM

S&r: most people in the US use traffic jam. Muppett: Fanny bag=fanny pack, fawcett=faucet, the game is craps and is played with dice. LadyJean, herself (a Taylor-Alderdice grad) says you left out grinnies.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:50 AM

Amos, Raedwulf - you just blew my best anecdote out of the water! I'm applying the razor-blade to my jugular as I type. Goodbye Cruel World.................................THUMP!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Strollin' Johnny
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 07:54 AM

Hey again Raedwulf, your treatise regarding the addition of prefixes/suffixes to reverse words is interesting. My favoutite (which I've use for years) is 'mantle', meaning to put something together,(as distinct from dismantle). Eg "That clock yer dad dismantled is still in pieces, he'd better mantle it again" :-)
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Splott Man
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 08:00 AM

Driving on the pavement (sidewalk) is still illegal here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: muppett
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 09:46 AM

Oops sorry artbrooks for my blunders

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Midchuck
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 10:32 AM

Was just looking at some old Robert Burns song lyrics.

There's one called - I swear I'm not making this up - "Cock Up Your Beaver."

Meaning: tip your hat - I think.

Good idea in any case.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:13 PM

Midchuck, in that usage "beaver" is the part of a knight's helmet with "cocks" up off the face when not in battle, and can be lowered to provide protection and some vision through apertures.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 12:33 PM

So you don't think old Rab was having a joke, then?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 05:24 PM

Raedwulf

the least I say about American pronunciation and American spelling the better but one has to acknowledge they are homophones.


the SOED CD ROM says -
1 A peg or spigot to stop the vent-hole in a cask etc. LME–M18.
2 A tap for drawing liquor from a barrel etc. Now dial. & US. LME.
3 A tap for drawing any liquid or gas from a pipe or vessel; spec. one providing access to a supply of piped water for household etc. US. M19.
4 The enlarged section of a pipe made to receive the spigot end of the next section. US. L19.

and second entry

A facet; a faceted stone.

go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 06:12 PM

The beaver referred to in "Cock Up Your Beaver" isn't the visor on a knights helm.

It's one of the old felt hats made with the hair from beaver pelts. It was supposed to be the best hair to use in making hats which were extremely popular in the last few centuries and the main market for the booming fur trade in the Americas. The hats were nick-named "beavers".

So Midchuck above was right.

On both counts.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 06:54 PM

I don't believe it. Sure, I was pretty stinkin' last night and I was pretty hung over when I went to pick up the old woman at her old ladys, but did she need to ride my ass about it? I finally pulled into a rest stop and told her that if she could take the wheel, and she did and I got some naptime from there to the garage. She didn't wake me when we got home, either, and I woke up looking at a grinny through the passenger window. Good thing I'd redded up the place before I left, 'cause there was enough hell to pay without that too.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 27 Nov 03 - 10:27 PM

DaveO - strictly speaking, the beaver is actually the bottom portion of a knight's helm (I ought to know, I'm a re-enactor) that protects the chin & mouth. It can't be "cocked up" I'm afraid. The beaver is definitely a hat in this case.

Johnny - glad to see yer still wiv us! *g* You can always complete the anecdote with the (possibly) correct definition of "posh" y'know. Even the dikkers don't have this. The OED says that it may be derived from slang for a dandy or fop. So I looked up posh in Partridge's dik of historical slang. It reckons that posh derives from the Romany for half, which was applied to a halfpenny, from there to mean having money in general, and ultimately someone that had (or appeared to have) money was therefore posh. Not quite sure why the main dictionaries don't credit this explanation suficiently to offer it moer assuredly. Possibly because there isn't enough of a concrete trail back to the original...

As to mantle for put together, that one is a back formation I think. Webster Online gives the second definition of dismantle as to strip of dress or covering, & mantle as a cloak or covering, or (as a verb) to cover something; rather than to put something back together. I've also seen mantling used as describing the action of climbing onto a ledge (as in mantlepiece, in this context).

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 04:34 AM

Romany posh karoon = half-crown, a Brtish coin that disappeared with decimalisation, worth 2s6d, or 12.1/2 new pence.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Nov 03 - 01:50 PM

This is good. I wish I'd found this thread earlier on my trip to Australia. Unfortunately I fly out today and will have little use for it. But the trip has shown some interesting differences between our English and the Aussie version. And there must be some very interesting differences between the UK english and the Aussie english.

...separated by a common tongue? Is it a plot to keep those learning english as a second language on their toes?

Subject: ADD: Don't Know the Words... (for My Favo(u)rite T
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 04:54 PM

As a transplanted Yank (Detroit-area to Sheffield), I'm particularly enjoying this thread.

A few terms I haven't seen mentioned yet:

Shattered: emotionally traumatized (US); exhausted (UK)
Muffler: car silencer (US); scarf (UK)
Scoff: make fun of (US); gobble up (UK)

Mobile: something you hang over a baby's crib (US); portable phone (UK)

There are a few more in this parody wot I wrote (I think most are evident from context, but if not, let me know & I'll clarify).

Don't Know the Words... (for My Favo(u)rite Things)
(with apologies to Rodgers & Hammerstein)

Jelly is jam here, and jello is jelly
Cars have a boot and my foot wears a wellie
Mention "sultanas", I think: Eastern Kings
Don't know the words for my favourite things

Summat is not where you go when you're climbing
Jumper is not someone into sky diving
Bob is Your uncle, the Beeb is your Aunt
Don't know the words to explain what I want

If my languish causes anguish; if you think me sad
Oh, won't you remember I'm just a poor Yank, and that's why I talk... so bad

Beer's sold by landlords instead of bartenders
Don't tell the clerk that your man needs suspenders
Braces aren't something you wear on your teeth
Rubber is nothing to do with a sheath

I stand in line; over here it's called queueing
Lines are engaged but they never need wooing
You work while five while I labor 'til four
Knob isn't always a thing on a door

If I speak, luv, like a freak, luv; if you think me mad
Oh, won't you remember I'm just a poor Yank, and that's why I talk... so bad

Biscuits are sweet but a tart can be racy, a
Nice bit o' crumpet might wear something lacy
Crackers are not to be eaten with cheese
Folks don't wear flannels but you can wear fleece

Chips come with haddock; and crisps in a packet
Soccer is football and baseball's not cricket
Stockings have ladders and Cricket has runs
Baps is the word for my favourite buns

If my diction causes friction; if I seem a cad
Oh, won't you remember I'm just a poor Yank, and that's why I talk... so bad

Two pints of bitter were not a bad notion
Held up two fingers and caused a commotion
I didn't quack but you called me a duck
Muffler's not something to quiet a truck   

You call me luv; I don't know who you are, pet
But when I say shag, ducks, I only mean carpet
Met a cute bloke at the Anchor & Bull
Kept my hands off him but he said I pulled

I get confused but I can't ask my granny
My knickers are knackered and show off my f...reckles               
You can go barking though you're not a dog,
Everyone goes to the loo in a swamp... um, bog!

If you're thinkin' I've been drinkin'; if you think me lewd
Oh, won't you remember I'm just a poor Yank, and that's why I seem... so rude!


Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 05:16 PM

Great song, Yorkshire Yankee!

For some reason, I was reminded of eating at a restaurant, many years ago. A very sheltered, sweet friend of mine was with me, and he saw Veal Cutlet on the menu. A Veal Cutlet Wedge. That's a sandwich, made with a long roll, slit down the middle. He didn't know what a wedge was, and asked me. I told him, It's like a "grinder." He had no idea what a Grinder was, so I said, "It's like a submarine sandwich." And his eyes glazed over. "Like a Hoagie? I offered, hopefully," only to be met with even dimmer recognition. "A Hero sandwich? I offered in final desperation. He'd never heard any of the terms, although he was born and raised in this country and was in his fifties. Finally I said, "It's a sandwich made with a long roll, slit down the middle." He nodded, indicating that he understood what I was talking about.

When the waitress came over he said, "Can I have the Veal Cutlet Wedge, without the bread?"

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 06:43 PM

So many usages that were once confined to one side of the pond or the other have now become common on both sides. Much of what is posted above as British or American falls apart when regionalisms are taken into account.
Also usage has changed with time; when I was a child, vest in the U. S. meant an undershirt as well as a waistcoat, now it has become a waistcoat- but one that matches the pants (tailors prefer trousers) and suitcoat. Fancy waistcoats are worn primarily as period pieces.

Color was originally Latin; which now is couleur in French but remains color in Spanish; the English colour (colur) became usual in England in the 14th c., but color also was used in the 15th c and later, becoming standard in the U. S. Color predates Webster in the U. S., he just accepted general usage. Why? Dunno. In fakelore books, it is said that the 'u' distinguishes words borrowed from the French, but this is not true- the 'u' is applied to some words that did not come from French, and is left out of others.

Webster was a standardizer, but there were several compilers in the British Isles who accomplished standardization as well.

Much of what is being posted here has been gone over in several earlier threads. The subject seems to come up in about a nine-month cycle.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:39 PM

Must be an interesting subject, if it keeps coming up... :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 29 Nov 03 - 08:53 PM

I was ordering food in an English-style pub in California, years ago, and saw two items on the menu that were unusual: "bangers" and "bloaters". I still do not know what they are, but neither name makes you want to order them!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 12:47 AM

Ah, bangers and mash. Sausage and atomized potatoes. Bloaters are a fish, bloated herring. The name brings up visions of dead, gaseous bodies, so I never have, and never will, eat one.
Why banger? For low-grade sausage bloated with water so that they explode when cooked in a pan?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 12:14 PM

I am Wild About My Flat Means either that I am annoyed because my motorised vehicle has a puncture, Or that I am ecstatic about the apartment I live in. And in UK we have been known to 'hump' heavy objects!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 01:19 PM

Faggot can also mean a stick of 'fat wood' used as a torch or to light a fire.

Loo/vs bathroom--usually our toilets, washing up sinks and bathtubs are all in the same room. In public toliets (almost always free) you only get a toilet and a hand washing sink.

While we're on it, where did 'toff' come from? Means same as 'posh' I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 02:29 PM

SU - tin (noun): an elemental metal; also a prime ingrediant in solder

UK - tin (verb): to place excess food in moderate-sized metal container for future use

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 06:02 PM

Interestingly people used to "can" food long before "tin cans" were invented - a "can" was also used as a drinking vessel - going back long towards the Middle Ages. The phrase "canning" was used in the USA from early days - and is still ocassionaly used to refer to preserving food in glass jars.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 07:15 PM

You're right, Foolestroup... we "canned" vegetables every summer in Mason jars... a wide mouthed jar with a rubber ring gasket and flat top.

Would have seemed weird saying we were glassing vegetables..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 10:12 PM

Fowler's & Vocola "Bottling" (Canning) kits are still seen in the shops in Australia from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 03 - 11:17 PM

We eat what we can,and what we can't... we can!

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 12:08 AM

Wonderful parody YY.

Taxicab, I read somewhere, is short for taximeter cabriolet. A Cabriolet is a vehicle whose passeneger accomodations are closed and whose driver sits out in the open and whose mileage (and therefore rate for hire) is determined by a meter which measures distance traveled - a taxi meter. Pronounced: taksimiter cabrolay, emphasis on sim and bro.

Cabriolets were horsedrawn until the advent of the automobile. There are a number of classic autos which are called cabriolets. The Lagonda was one, I believe, and I think that Rolls had a model or two called cabriolets. There were probably others.

I don't know the difference (if there is one) between a cabriolet and a Hansom unless it is the number of wheels (or horses?) but if what I read is correct and cab is short for cabriolet, it is possible that it should be Hansom cabriolet not Hansom cab?

CB

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 05:28 AM

Sorcha, A toff is a nob, more or less; "toff"="toffee-nose", i.e. "one with his nose in the air", and "nob"="noble/nobility". Neither expression is derogatory per se, and both mean an upper-class or well-heeled person, usually a gent[leman]. "Toff" can also be used metaphorically to mean a decent or generous person, as when a cab driver might say in response to an unusually large tip, "Cor stone the crows, you're a toff sir, an' no mistake." Well, he might in Mary Poppins! (More likely "Get me sarf o' the river this time o' night, I expect more than a bleedin' Lady Godiva!")

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 01 Dec 03 - 08:00 AM

...and a bloater, FWIW, is exactly like a kipper except you smoke 'em with their guts still inside (kippers are filleted first). So, they can optionally be cleaned before grilling (trad for bloaters) or grilled whole. Oops, I mean broiled. Do I? erm, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 08:46 PM

More about "posh"...

Found this in a recently-acquired book (it echoes/confirms what's already been said above, but offers a bit more detail):

posh        Swanky. Deluxe. [A direct borrowing of the form but not the sense of Romany posh, half. Brit. Gypsies commonly, if warily, worked with Brit. rogues. Shiv, Romany for "knife", came into Eng. through this association. Similarly rum go is at root Rom go, "a Gypsy thing," hence, a queer thing. Brit. rogues came to know posh in such compounds as posh-houri, half pence, and posh-kooroona, half crown, so associating it with money, and from XVII to mid XIX posh meant "money" in thieves' cant, the sense then shifting to "swank, fashionable, expensive" ("the good things money can buy").]
        NOTE: A pervasive folk etymology renders the term as an acronym of p(ort) o(ut), s(tarboard) h(ome), with ref. to the ideal accomodations on the passage to India by way of the Suez Canal, a packet service provided by the Peninsula and Eastern steamship line. The acronym is said to explain the right placement of one's stateroom for being on the shady side or the lee side of the ship. On the east-west passage it is true, the ship being north of the sun, that the acronym will locate the shady side (though time of year will make a substantial difference). The lee side, however, is determined by the monsoon winds, and since they blow into the Asian heartland all summer and out of it all winter, only the season can determine which side will be sheltered. The earlier dating of posh as glossed above sufficiently refutes the ingenious (but too late) acronymic invention. As a clincher, veterans of the Peninsula and Eastern, questioned about the term, replied that they had never heard it in the acronymic sense.

-- from A Browser's Dictionary
   A Compendium of Curious Expressions & Intriguing Facts
   by John Ciardi (published in 1980)

(Anyone else remember hearing "Good Words to You", Ciardi's weekly bits on NPR (Morning Edition, if I remember rightly) in the 80s?
I really enjoyed 'em!)

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Splott Man
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:15 AM

A few years ago an American visitor was much amused by the road signs near my house saying "You are now entering the Tremorfa Hump area" and "Humps for 100yds".

And I've just noticed the legend above this "Reply to Thread" box. It offers to translate English to French!
Aaaaaaargh!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Splott Man
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:18 AM

Damn! I was tryng to be no 100 again. Missed

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Splott Man
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:19 AM

Got it!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 08:32 AM

Brill!, Splott man!!!!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 09:22 AM

Please constrain your posts to BS!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: maire-aine
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 12:50 PM

Does anybody call alumin(i)um foil "tin foil" any more?

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:04 PM

Sure!! It's the generic for the stuff regardless of what it is made of. For one reason, slang never goes uphill toward three syllables when it is already comfortably ensconced in one syllable!! It entropic -- head for less energy!

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 01:28 PM

Hey, Steve! Huh? This IS a BS thread. I don't get it.. who you talkin' to?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:17 PM

As music fans, we are probably more familiar with the "tin ear" than the "tin foil".

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: LadyJean
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:46 AM

It suddenly occurred to me to wnder what The British would think of my favorite breakast, biscuits and gravy!

Many years ago, a friend of my mother's was in a resort town in New Jersey. All the hotels had signs that read, "No Fags". The lady thought it was an odd way to say no cigarettes.

One of the Many times I got lost in London, I followed a sign to the subway. I was of course seeking the tube, not that walkway under the road.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:14 AM

Jerry ... I can't remember! Somebody mentioned music, I think ...

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:42 AM

Music does manage to creep into BS threads every once in awhile, Steve.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Conclusion
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:13 AM

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Conclusion
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:13 AM

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 09:16 AM

LadyJean wrote this in 2003:

"And then, course there are the regional dialects. Scots would know what a Pittsburgher meant if she said "redd up". But they*d be confused by the Pittsburgh definition of neb. Here, a neb is a snoop"

end of quote

On top of the differences between American English and other English, there are racial/ethnic differences within the same region and nation.

I've lived in Pittsburgh for almost 35 years, and I've never heard any African Americans [or non-African Americans for that matter] say "neb". But informally, we {African Americans} might say "nebby". When we use it "nebby" means "nosey" [minding somebody else's business when you should be minding your own] For example, "Get out of my bizness. Why you tryin to be so nebby?"

I have also heard "She's a nebby nose." But that seems to be used much less often than the word "nebby" itself.

Incidently, this word didn't originate among Black folks.

Tony Thorne's "The Dictionary of Contemporary Slang" [America, Great Britain, Australia, the Caribbean, and other English speaking places], 1990 has this offering:

"nebish, nebesh, nebech [noun]: A fool, an effectual, clumsy or pathetic person. The word entered English speech from Yiddish in which on of its meanings is a pitiful nonentity or 'loser'. The ultimate origin of the word is the Czech adjective neboby, mening unhappy, unfortunate, or diseased."

end of quote

So to end where I started, in Pittsburgh Black lingo, a person who minds someone else's business is a fool.

****

PS: I've never heard any African Americans in Pittsburgh {or any where else} say 'redd up'. I'm assuming it means "to clean house" [get a place ready for guests] but I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 02:48 PM

Azizi, Lady Jean didn't say black Pittsburghers, as to either of those usages.

Also, I have some question whether that Yiddish set of terms, "nebish, nebesh" and so on, for "loser", has anything to do with the Pittsburgh neb and nebby. At least the quotation you gave doesn't indicate that, and doesn't mention being nosy.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:14 PM

lobscouse and spotted dog

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 03:27 PM

....Jimmy cleesed me that groaters were coming and I was simply stonkered...so I had to perg around to Dunwizzie's for some cazzle and twiskits. I sure hope the ruggies are down on the debs tonight!



(well, that's what it feels like when I read some of the more 'local' posts from those who have had the language for 800-900 years...*grin*)

We poor colonials have a ways to go to get back to 'colorful'...ooops...'colourful'....except for Texans, who have an entire language subset to define their culture.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 04:05 PM

Uncle_DaveO -

You are correct. Lady Jean's post didn't distinquish between which population of Pittsburghers she was referring to..

In my post I added additional information that makes that distinction. I did so because I believe that in a multi-racial/multi-ethnic society is not only valid but it is important and interesting to document differences in word usages & word meanings among peoples of different races & ethnicities.

You may be correct that the Yiddish set of terms, "nebish, nebesh" and so on, for "loser" has nothing to do with the Pittsburgh region's use of "neb" and "nebby."

I love etymology, but I'm barely in the first grade vis a vis the study of the origins & meanings of words and phrases. However, one of the first lessons that one learns in that field is that words don't have to be related just because they look very much alike and are pronounced the same or similarly.

So let me amend my post to say that it may be possible that the use of "neb" and "nebby" in possibly different ways and with possibly different meanings among Pittsburgh region's African American and
non-African American populations may come from the Yeddish word "nebish".

I'll then hand this question over to competent eytmologists for them to study, agree upon, and/or fight over.


Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 06:29 PM

Texans use language?

I once had an Irish girlfriend, who used "neb" or "nib" (with no observable distinction) to refer to the nose. I've never heard it in native English.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

Somehow recently I came on a link to this American-British/British-American Dictionary. I was going to post the link to an appropriate thread here, but didn't have time to find one. SO, today here 'tis, and when I google to find the above dictionary link, I find there's billions of 'em. So, no excuses now.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 08:53 PM

shore Texans use langwidge! They are economical with it, too! They get one word to convey multiple concepts!

"I was out fer a drive across my raynch when my truck broke down. So I had to get out a raynch to fix it, but while I was doin' that, I raynched my arm and got all my hands all greasy, so's I had to raynch 'em off in the crick."

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 10:28 PM

Interesting stuff in the last few posts concerning neb and Red up. I always heard these Nib and RId as in "Don't be a nib-nose, and rid up your bedroom (or kitchen )" My family comes from 125 miles from Pittsburgh so it is interesting these are similar. People from southeastern Ohio also use such terms as Get out of my road instead of get out of my way.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 09:05 AM

Unlike Richard, I have heard "neb" in Britain (South Pennines), both to refer to the nose itself, or in phrases like "have a neb at ...", in the same way that "nose" is used figuratively for the action of searching.

And the US/UK dictionary agrees on the meaning: conk sl n : nose, syn. hooter, neb.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:27 PM

Ah - memories of the old Punch Up The Conk Show come floating back....

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:18 PM

As to the word 'conk'.

Once upon a time there was a product in the United States that was called "Conkalene'. Conkalene was
a lye based grease used to straighten African American men's [and women's hair.

So a Black person who had a 'conk' had their hair straightened with Conkalene [I might be spelling it wrong.I'm not sure}.

Spike Lee's Malcolm X movie has a great scene based on the book on Malcolm X before he became a Muslim 'conking' his hair ['conking' meaning using Conkalene]. And to protect your conk at night you might wear a do-rag {a rag/scarf to protect your hair do {the hair that was 'done'??} Of course most people just used the foot of nylon stockings as a covering for their hair, putting this on before going to bed..

Currently products [called 'perms' I suppose from 'permanent', though they are anything but permanent] used to straighten tightly curly hair don't contain lye. They haven't since the mid 1960s.

Still if you aren't careful, those perms still burn-or so I'm told..
****

PS: One of the by products of having a White roomate in college was that I learned that White women perm their hair to add curls while Black women perm their hair to straighten it.

Oh, the joys of multi-cultural living!!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:14 AM

One thing that puzzles me (apart from saying the time is 10 of 6??) is why Americans use the phrase 'I could care less' when the British equivalent seems so much more sensible. 'I couldn't care less'. If you could care less then by definition you care to a greater or lesser extent whereas if I couldn't care less then it doesn't mean anything to me at all. Is the American expression shortened from something you'd hear on Friends? 'Like, I could care less?'

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Layah
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:12 AM

I am American and I say both could care less and couldn't care less. I never understood the could, because you're right, it doesn't make any sense that way. Someone once suggested to me that perhaps if you say I could care less you're being sarcastic, but I don't think so. My theory is that it comes from I couldn't care less, which got turned into a set phrase, so people stopped breaking it down to understand the meaning, and as long as no one is looking at the literal meaning, could and couldn't actually sound very similar and it could easily get changed from one to the other.

I'd never thought before about saying 5 of 6 for time. Don't know what the of is doing there, but I would probably personally say 5 till 6. What really confused me was when I first heard British people saying half eleven, and I couldn't decide if that was going to mean 10:30 or 11:30. I think someone told me that in German half eleven would mean 10:30, or maybe it's Russian...But in British it means 11:30

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:30 AM

Neb for nose is common usage round here (Hull in Yorkshire, England). To have a 'neb round' is to have an quick inquisitive visit, as in looking round a shop or pub without buying anything.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Torctgyd
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:16 AM

Layah,

Thanks for you reply. Half 11 is definitely 11.30 but to me 5 till 6 means you'll be doing something from 5 to 6 o'clock. I though saying 5 of 6 meant five minutes past 6 (or is it 5 minutes to 6?)

Diverging from the time, I remember when I was about 9 my mum's cousin, who is married to a US Airman, was staying and she asked me to get her purse from the living room. As you can imagine she wasn't very happy a minute or so later when she came to find out why I'd been taking so long to see me rummaging around her handbag looking for a purse. She quickly forgave me when she realised the language gap. (Purse (US)= Handbag (UK), Purse (UK)= Pocketbook(?)(US))

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Layah
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

Purse in UK is what I would call a wallet. Just happens to be a big wallet, but I call them all wallets.

I also miswrote, I don't say 5 till 6 I actually say 5 to 6. Which could in the right context also mean starting from 5 and going to 6, but if someone says "what time is it?" the answer "five to six" makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

A conk is a type of fungus that grows straight out of a tree trunk and looks like ... a nose.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM

I guess being 'nebby' as used by African Americans in Pittsburgh area does mean sticking your nose in other people's business.

As to 'conk', Clarence Major's dictionary on Black American slang "Juba to Jive" has this entry for 'conk':
"{n} 1930-1950s; pomade for the hair; a hairstyle; the human head itself; brains or intelligence. in general white use during the same time period, this term refered mostly to the human head or the face or nose, and to the act of hitting someone on the head."

Majors also has an entry for 'conk-buster', 'conk-busting': [n;adj],{19302-1950s} anything proving mentally difficult, also sometimes referred to what drugs or liquor did to the mind; from the forties into the fifites, cheap whiskey or wine. Example: "That cat comes up with some conk-busting questions."

end of quote

Well the brand name "Conkalene" had to come from some where..I guess it fits with the 'conk' having to do with the head.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:14 PM

Conkalene,
Honey, is that you?
Oh, Conkalene!
Honey, is that you?
You stir-frying my brains, girl
The way you allus useter do....


A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 07:47 PM

Amos, what song are you quoting?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Pogo
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 09:41 PM

LOL...don't even get started on English and Southern English...


Mash the button (pushing the button)

If I had my druthers (meaning something like If I had a choice about it)

Riled up (meaning angry)

Yonder (meaning a direction...Over there yonder apiece...or Ovah yondah with the accent)

Betwixt (between)

Ill (meaning grumpy...She gets me so ill sometimes)

Sugar or Shugah (Kisses...Give Gramma some sugar, honey)

Arsh potaters (Irish potatoes...what my grandaddy always called them anyways)

Butter Beans (Lima beans)

Warshin' powders (Laundry detergent)

Drawers (Underwear)

Drank (Any beverage...I'd like a drank of Coker Coler, honey)

I reckon (I suppose)

heheh...and one of my favorite expressions...as much chance as a kerosene cat in hell with gasoline drawers on...

hooowee...

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:19 PM

Pogo, here's a couple more English & Southern English that I've heard
      used {though since I'm not from the South & have no Southern
      relatives, this is second hand information}


tote- I had to tote that heavy box all the up them stairs. {carry}

Fixin -I'm fixin to {I'm getting ready to cook a mess of greens}

"mess" meaning "a lot of"

And is "buggy" {baby carriage} US Southern English too?

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:41 PM

Have to add that almost every "southern" phrase mentioned above is equally common to Wisconsin. At least southern Wisconsin.

You dasn't limit it to the South.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

"dasn't" ??

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 12:16 AM

Jerry-

My favorite Wisconsinism came at a department store when I asked for help from a clerk who was, unbeknownst to me, taking her lunch break.

"I'd like to help you," said she, "but I'm on my off."

(Second place goes to a golf partner who, after hitting his drive on a short par 3 pin high but into the sand trap on the left remarked,
"Damn, I got the right up but the wrong over.")

Worst part is, I knew right away what both of them meant.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 12:21 AM

Azizi

I always took dasn't to mean dare not.

If you live near 70 and 80 year old ethnic Germans, you'll hear it quite often.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 07:05 AM

Back to "5 to 6"...

In Yorkshire, they use "while" the way most others use "until" (or "till"). Example: "The shop's open from 9 while 5."

There's a joke I've heard concerning the introduction of traffic lights to Yorkshire (which wasn't exactly recent, so I'm assuming it's an oldish joke); because this was a new thing, the lights were accompanied by signs with instructions: "Stop here while the light is red." So of course the Yorkshireman concerned stops & waits through the green & yellow lights, and continues on his way when the light turns red...

Another expression that took some getting used to for me was "stopping" (meaning "staying"). Example: About 5 pm, a work mate asked me "Are ye stoppin'?" I was planning to stop working in a couple of minutes, so I said "Yes." He took that to mean that I would be staying & working late...

Yet another rich source of misunderstanding is the word "dinner". Of course, that varies from region to region in the US as well as in the UK. I have read about a public speaker (in the UK) who ended up double-booked because he had accepted "lunch" and "dinner" engagements – which both turned out to refer to the mid-day meal...

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:04 AM

YY - I think traffic lights came in in the 1930s, but that story dates from the 1960s when gates at railway crossings were being replaced by raising barriers and flashing lights. The sign at the crossing read "Do not cross while red lights are flashing"

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 09:08 AM

Hey, Azizi:

My Father used to say dasn't, and it did mean dare not. I'm not sure where he got his words, but his Father and Mother were born and grew up in Denmark, so it does make sense that it would be Germanic. He also called our frying pan a spider. Now, "skillet" is old enough as a term in itself, but "spider?" It wasn't until I studied colonial life as an adult that I found out where the term came from. A spider is a skillet with feet (not 8, however.) They were used for frying food over the embers in a fireplace. Who says there isn't reincarnation?

My sons always liked the wisconsin term "couple three." And then of course, there are all the localisms that wouldn't make sense to someone in another state. When my Father wanted to describe a place that was far away, he's say it was "from here to Hanover." Or maybe even Barbury Cross.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,neovo
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

The phrase "keep your neb out" is quite common in Yorkshire, meaning keep your nose out - mind your own business. I also recall the "while/while" urban myths. The one I remember was about not lighting a boiler while there was water in it. BANG!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM

Does this count as English? I learnt it as a kid in Yorkshire....

I were bahn dahn us ginnel
As t'pictures were loosin'
It were black as t'coil oil and mucky as t'tip
When I saw t'rag and boon man
All brussen wi' boozin'
'Twelting t'osses ower t'ead wi'a whip!

Arnie

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GLoux
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 04:37 PM

I was visiting the UK a few years ago, woke up one morning, turned on the radio and heard that "the gritting lorries were out"...my imagination went wild, trying to figure out what was meant...OMIGOD, should I stay behind a locked door until they're "put back in"???

the salt trucks were out because it had snowed overnight...

-Greg

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:47 AM

Bill--

From what I hear, you as a guy could have a "stonker" but not be "stonkered"--and stonkered would definitely not be hungry.   Can any of our UK members confirm any use of this word, that Bill, I think, believes he just made up.? Or is it restricted to the English source I hear every day? (appears to be one of her favorite words)--maybe she made it up.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM

GUEST,Arnie,

Would you provide a translation please?

****

When I first moved to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania* I heard several Black people say that they were 'drugged' and I thought to myself "There must be alot of drug addicts in this city [true LOL]
but actually they were using in to mean annoyed or upset or "pissed off"..for example: "I'm drugged that our team lost last night".

Does anyone know if "drugged" is used this way in any othehr place? area use this word this way?

*For those unfamiliar with the home of the Steelers football team and the Pirates baseball team, Pittsburgh, PA is about a 6 hour drive from the probably better known Philadelphia, PA; and Pittsburgh is about a 5 hour drive away from New York City..]

Since it once had a deservedly bad reputation as a dirty city because of the steel mills, "yunzt" may be surprised at how beautiful Pittsburgh is now...

We've "cleaned up our act!!"

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:23 AM

Azizi!

Go Pirates!

And now that I think about it, "dasn't" is clearly a contraction of dast not. Sounds Shakespearian to me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 10:15 AM

Go Jerry!!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 12:02 PM

I expect it is the past perfect verbal form of encountering something that is a "drag", meaning a downer, bummer, bad trip, and so on.

Everyone knows the verb "drag" has the past perfect "drug" right?

A

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:21 PM

Amos:

'drugged' being the past perfect form of "a drag"? You might have been joking but that's the best explanation I've ever heard for "drugged" being used that way.

:O)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 04:43 PM

Azizi asked:

And is "buggy" {baby carriage} US Southern English too?

Southern Minnesota, where I grew up 55 to 60 or 65 years ago.

We used to have a tongue-twister: Rubber baby buggy bumpers.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Frank Maher
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 06:36 PM

In Newfoundland,We have Our Own English!!!!

    http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/d8ction.html

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:36 PM

Ron

Apparently you could be stonkered in Australia , but I've never heard it as a verb in UK.

Here's one UK stonker and here are several more

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:58 PM

Hello Dave!

I've heard that tongue-twister: "Rubber baby buggy bumpers" in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania too! I think it's still being said by some kids...

BTW, in my hometown of Atlantic City, New Jersey, we didn't use the term "buggy" for a baby carriage..we called it by it's 'real' name- "baby carriage". LOL!!

But the "carriage" was for the infant or smaller baby to lay down in..when the baby was bigger and able to sit up, they would 'graduate' to a "stroller".

But it seems to me that baby carriages are being phased out for strollers..I don't see that many carriages around here. But of course, we got a lot of steep hills in Pittsburgh, and I know from experience that pushing a carriage up hill is no joke..

"Umbrella strollers" are more recent inventions [say 20 or so ago??]. This type of stroller is more lightweight [read flimsy]. It folds like an umbrella hence the name}. Because of that capability, umbrella strollers can be used to push a baby/toddler to the bus stop. It then can be folded when the bus comes and unfolded when the adult {usually female} and child get off at their destination.

Are there other names for 'strollers' around the English speaking world?

And BTW, have you noticed the different ways that men and women push strollers??

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:59 PM

actually, I dredged up 'stonkered' from a distant memory of a conversation in an old Heinlein novel.."Sixth Column", where the hero is trying to come up with a code to communicate with someone so that his Asian captors won't get it... "The chopstick laddies are stonkered and discombomulated" I had no idea whether Heinlein made it up. I sure hope the rest of 'em ain't part of someone's real slang!

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Layah
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:08 PM

I've also heard "rubber baby buggy bumpers" but never anyone who actually called them buggys. As far as I know in California buggys don't exist and all babies are put in strollers. In London strollers were called push chairs. I have heard that in the UK buggys are called prams (short for perambulator?) but I haven't actually heard the word used. Although I haven't seen people in California use them, I would be likely to call them baby carriages.

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:40 AM

oh, we used "baby buggy" in my family! My brother had a baby buggy (high, with springs and collapsable cover looked very much like this)...I remember it well when I was about 5-6..I never thought much about it till I heard 'carriage' in later years and it dawned on me that 'buggy' was not the most common usage. You adopt local cant and vernacular and sometimes it's hard to change.

(couch? divan? settee? sofa? davenport? and more..)

Subject: RE: BS: English To English Dictionary
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:12 AM

I grew up familiar with "rubber baby buggy bumpers" too – in the Detroit area. However, the person I remember hearing it from was my dad – a New York City boy – so I don't truly know how well known it was/wasn't in SouthEastern Michigan, but I have a feeling it was...

As for stonker vs stonkered, I checked with my (English) hubby, who says that there's no "stonkered" over here, but "stonker" means huge – which could explain Ron Davies' suggested meaning (a guy could have a "stonker"), although hubby says he's not heard it used that way over here. He says its origins are military; a "stonk" was a brief, concentrated artillery attack. For example, a battery (4 guns) would suddenly fire 3 rounds each (for a total of a dozen shells), all at the same target, then stop.

I did some Googling, & found the wwftd dictionary, which has the following entries:

stonk
    a heavy concentration of military fire
    loosed a ~ on them and wiped them off the face of the earth
stonker
    [Austral] 1) to hit hard: knock unconcious
    2) to baffle completely: outwit, foil
stonking
    [Brit] 1) impressively large 2) an intensifier
    a ~ good time

Another word I found confusing when I moved here was "revise" – as in "Did you spend a lot of time revising for that exam?" (For the Brits amongst you, in the US we'd use "review" there; "revise" is used only in the sense of correcting something, or making minor changes.)