BS: Has America ever won a war?

Subject: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:45 PM

Contentious I know and no one ever realy wins a war anyway. But son #3 said earlier that he heard someone on TV saying that America had never lost a war. So, he got to thinking and looking on the web and could not find a single instance of America winning a war on her own!

Right from the war of Independance, where they were assisted by the French to Iraq where they are part of a coilition. WW1, WW2 - Both allied force victories. I think they did loose the war against Canada on their own but had help with making a mess in Korea and Vietnam.

Not getting at anyone here, truthfuly. Genuine academic interest. And to prove it I am quite happy to ask the same question of Englands forces or those any other country.

Or can anyone even just point me at a good website?

Going to bed now and expect the flames tomorrow. I shall try to sepeate the chaff from the wheat!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:46 PM

kicked some beachcombing ass in Granada, man. Not nobody braved that one with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:49 PM

Well, I think they lost Vietnam all on their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

Australia's greatest celebrated "Glory in War" is Gallipolli - where the Turks kicked our butts right off the beach... there is a great degree of respect between the two countries now.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM

1812?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: jimmyt
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 06:57 PM

so when it comes to the responsibility of being IN the war, it is America, but otherwise, it is not America, but AMerica and its allies or a coalition? give me a break here. A rhetorical question, perhaps, but seems to be one to just fan the flames over. I guess you would heve been better off if America had just kept its nose out of your squabble with Germany 2 times?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,General Isaac Brock
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:06 PM

Their every attempt to invade and subjugate Canada during 1812-14 failed miserably, and our troops burned Washington. They did, however, do well on the Great Lakes in that war. All in all, I'd say they lost it, but only in the sense that their offensive aims were frustrated. They did not lose it decisively, but conditionally. They have forgotten this by focusing on a few isolated naval victories and the Battle of New Orleans, which they did win.

They won a war with Mexico and a war with Spain, and gained much territory...official or unofficial territory...out of both those endeavours, including Calfornia, Cuba (temporarily), the Phillipines, the Southwest USA, and Puerto Rico.

They lost the War in Vietnam...not on the battlefield, but on the larger field of politics and public opinion. The best evidence of that was their final, hurried departure by helicopter from the roof of their embassy in Saigon.

They managed a draw in Korea.

They won decisively in both World Wars.

And by the way, they killed me, but I still beat them. You can see my statue on the Canadian side of Niagara.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:08 PM

Hey, this all depends on how one defines win or lose. If winning means you get to steal the other country's land or stuff afterwards then Vietnam was lost, Korea was lost, Grenada was lost, WW I and WW II were lost, the War of 1812 was lost, The Spainish American War, ahhhh, kind lost, the French and Indian War, ahhh, half. The Civil, which it wasn't, War was one by half the counrty and lost by the other half... But now the Mexican War? Won that one. And the War for Independence? Won that one too. So lets see how we've done? 2 wins, 5 losses and 2 ties. Won't get ya into the playoff's....

But if you redifine win or lose, hey you could probably come up with any number of win/lose records...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:09 PM

Perhaps by ourselves, we may not have. I doubt anyone would argue that we did not make a significant contribution to WWI and WWII though.

We certainly cannot claim victory in Korea or 'Nam. Perhaps, had Johnson had the balls to allow the military to win the war, things would have been different in Vietnam. The same for Truman during the Korean "conflict."

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:11 PM

Dave is a friend of mine so I know he is not a troll.

The war of 1812 sort of just fizzled out. The boundry between the USA and Canada was set in 1843 (Webster-Ashburton)
The Mexican war got us a lot of territory.
I believe we won the Spanish American war.
We won, and lost the Civil war.
We never defeated the Seminoles in Florida,
The Korean war is still not settled
In Viet Nam we just sorta said screw it, and left.

One clear victory, the Barbary pirates. Commodore Preble, a local boy, went over there and kicked asses all over the place.

Dave, your son raised a good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:14 PM

If you leave out imperial expeditions, where big countries make war on very small countries, or on tribes, it's pretty hard to think of too many cases in recent years where a nation on its own has won a war.

Israel on occasion. India when it liberated Bangla Desh. That's about all I can think of in the 20th century. I'm sure there are afficionados of war who might have other suggestions.

But I urge Americans not to rise to Dave's teasing too indignantly. After all, after posting the arguably inflammatory heading, he did say "I am quite happy to ask the same question of England's forces or those any other country."

I'd suggest that is the question to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:30 PM

Y'all forget Bush says we won in Iraq this time!

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,Heidebundt Pikelmaas
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:31 PM

Most people have forgotten that America totally defeated Elbonia, to the extent that hardly anyone alive today even remembers that such a country ever existed...

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: diesel
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 07:39 PM

Consider Wars of a different kind perhaps ?

America is ahead in the economic war
The Cold war had many sides America (and a few other western countries) definitely won it.

Space war ? Maybe the economic win allows them to still fight this one - but the argument may be said the same for the russians - had they the resources.

rgds
Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM

Does anyone ever really win a war? Can anybody point a finger at a single war and say "we the people of {fill in the blank with your preferred nationality} won that war, we had no help, we never regretted it, and it never turned around and bit us on the ass in any way whatsoever." Wars of antiquity where the only evidence is legend and archeology (eg, Trojan War) don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 08:28 PM

Yo, Artbrooks... With all due respect, this thread assumed that no one wins wars...

So what the heck is the question again?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:12 PM

Korea was not a goddamn draw. We decisively routed the NK's out of territory they had occupied illegally in defense of our SK allies; we did it at huge expense. We left them with what they had when they began, and that only because Washington was a little leery of China, understandably enough. Politics is senior to military operations. What we fought, though, we won.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:15 PM

In my opinion the world would be a better place if no wars ever were fought unilaterally. If a country cannot convince friendly countries that such a grievous condition exists that war is an imperative, my guess is that the first country is incorrect.

Perhaps, had Johnson had the balls to allow the military to win the war, things would have been different in Vietnam. The same for Truman during the Korean "conflict." DougR, Hitler felt the same way about Germany's experience in the Great War. He blamed the people for the military's defeat. But I do think you are being purposely simplistic. In the case of Korea, you surely do not believe that it would have been advisable to fight China?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:22 PM

The only way that a military victory could have been won in Vietnam would have been to withdraw all the allied forces and nuked southeast Asia. Of course, that wouldn't have looked too good. But it would have been a military victory. Just another lose in the big scheme of things...

I'm with Ebbie...

... like what if they called for a war and no one showed up?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: mg
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:34 PM

Cool. No war. But a hell of a slaughter. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:40 PM

Ahhhh, you missed the point, Mary. You mixed two very much different thoughts into one. Reread... Please... You may have to reread Ebbie's prior posting also.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:51 PM

Well, let's see...a few others as well not noted here...........

We ain't doin' real well in the War on Terrorism....We kicked up some shit in Iraq, but since the 9/11 attacks were by Saudis, trained in Pakistan and Iran, and launched from Afghanistan.....Hmmmmm....So how many points do we get for Iraq? And where is Old Sammy Been Laden? I guess we're making progress though as now most everyone in the country is equipped with duct tape.

The War on Drugs has pretty well petered out, Not that it was ever really cookin' to start out with, but we did arrest Noriega for some reason so I guess that about covered it.

The War on Poverty......Oddly enough, this one was seriously underfunded but then again it's a bitch to get money appropriated if you're trying to save people instead of kill them. Anyway, it's pretty well forgotten now.........

Clinton put Gore in charge of the War on Bureaucracy but they found they needed a large bureaucracy to get the thing underway, so it was a no-starter.

I'd be all for starting a War on Governmental Bullshit but without the bullshit, there wouldn't be a government. So we'd need a revolutionary overthrow and right now, I don't see anyone lining up to support a Coup so why bother?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 09:55 PM

Naw, Amos. Korea was a stalemate, which amounts to a draw. Either that or it was:

1. A decisive North Korean victory, capturing all of the South except one small enclave around Pusan...followed by...

2. A decisive U.N. counterstroke by MacArthur at Inchon, routing the North Koreans and driving them way, way back...followed by...

3. A decisive, overwhelming assault by the Chinese, sending the U.N. forces stumbling in headlong retreat and retaking Seoul...followed by...

4. A gradual, but ever more successful counterattack by the U.N., using massive air superiority and naval bombardment to first stop the Chinese, and then retake Seoul and move slightly north...followed by...

5. A bloody stalemate along the original borderline where the whole thing began!

I call that a draw. Both sides can claim victories here and there along the way, but nobody won it. In fact, everybody lost it, so to speak. And they can all, of course, claim they "won"...that's human nature.

Mao-Tse Tung even lost his own son, who was killed in combat in North Korea. The Chinese, like MacArthur and Truman, took that war very seriously, and were prepared to do whatever had to be done to "hold the line". Both sides were drawing a line in the sand and saying, "You go this far and no farther." That line ended up being the border between the two Koreas. The Chinese were even ready to endure nuclear attack if necessary, and still keep fighting, and at that point, they could have. Nuclear weapons stockpiles were not yet large enough to obliterate a nation of China's size and depth, nor would Russia have stood aside and let it happen. And Truman clearly saw that, even if MacArthur had too much hubris to see it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:01 PM

That may or may not have been true, LH -- it was a hypothetical then and is now. But it reflects the conventional wisdom.

Considering what MacArthur accomplished I am not sure he wasn't right about the peninsula. Sorry if that sounds heretical.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:05 PM

I agree with DougR -- Vietnam could have been won IF the politicians had kept their hands out of it (and without the use of nukes, too).

But when you have someone in DC (call sign Eagle One) directing the supporting fires of a destroyer in the Tonkin Gulf, there's something amiss.

Civilian government should and must control the military. But those same civilians shouldn't be playing soldier when they tell the military to "go git 'em." The PBI (and others) die that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:27 PM

Korea was neither a win, a loss, nor a draw, 'cause it ain't over. Ask the 37,000 US troops still defedningf the border.

We just haven't been shooting at each other as much lately.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Dec 03 - 10:33 PM

Yeah, Amos, it's hypothetical. Who really knows for sure?

As for Vietnam? Yes, it could have been "won" militarily speaking...in which case the Vietnamese would have simply continued fighting a local guerilla action in the slow, patient way that they fought against the French, then the Japanese, then the French again, and then the Americans. And they would have eventually gotten the USA out of there and established their own sovereignty, which is all they were after.

Had the USA not abrogated the agreed-upon election process (for the whole country) after the French withdrawal (in 1955?), and set up a puppet government of Vietnamese Catholics in a predominantly Buddhist country, there would have been one united country achieved by lawful election in 1956, the Viet Minh would have formed it, and there would have been NO further Vietnam war at all.

The USA in 1955 was standing directly in the way of a single, small country's attempt to secure national independence under the very people who achieved that independence...and the USA did so illegally, with contempt for past signed agreements, because Ho Chi Minh was not their picked man, so he couldn't be controlled.

Therefore, in my opinion, the right people finally won that war 20 years later, and America didn't deserve to win it...though they certainly had the firepower to achieve military victory on the battlefield at any given time or place.

Mere firepower isn't always enough, when there is no moral position, no legal position, and no good reason of any kind for fighting in the first place.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:49 AM

As Spaw mentioned him, I thought I'd ask. Whatever happened to Osama Bin Forgotten?
John

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 04:08 AM

Thanks for all your faith in me, particularly Kendall. I can assure you the trust was well placed as this is far from a 'troll' question.

From the information received I gather that the US of A won wars against both the Spanish and the Mexicans single handedly. Good information that I can pass on to son #3. Was Mexico a straight USA conflict though or was it Texas vs Mexico with the US stepping in and Texas then joining the union?

Any more?

I never realised that the Canadian war was in 1812. I guess Tchaikovsky's little piece with the cannons has a whole different meaning over there:-)

In answer to a few other points I was going to have a laugh at the expense of the Guest (Sorry Guest!) suggesting the US was at war in Granada. Considering the war with the Spanish perhaps this is correct after all:-)

I do mean 'win a war' in the truest sense of the term. Ie - there is no doubt who is the victor and vanquished.

I never once suggested that America held the responsibility of being in any war or that they did not help greatly in any allied conflict. I just asked if they had ever won a war single handedly. Does that help placate your injured dignity jimmyt?

I don't think the USA can claim full responsibility for Vietnam. Us Brits and the French had a good go at cocking it up before the Yanks got there!

Finaly - Now back in time zone GMT. - C'mon you English. Let me know if we did any better. (Or worse depending on your point of view...)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 04:19 AM

The troops sould never have been sent in to Vietnam if the CIA (directed by Eagle One) hadn't manufactured the Tonkin Bay incident. And if the various Political Parties hadn't been dicking around behind the scenes to play politics, the Iran hostages would have been home BEFORE the new President took Office...

aaaaah --- yer mudda's mustache!

(sorry, just frustrated with the games politicians play... while they are lying to us plebes...)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 05:46 AM

War is the ultimate failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:12 AM

Actually Vietnam was a case where the war was "won" at a terrible cost. But not by America.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:43 AM

Here we go with the usual Yank bashing! If it was not for America's involvement in the last world war, I am quietly confident that there would be NO english mudcat contingent. The SS had all sorts of differing plans for this country, none of which involved the indigenous population lasting more than a generation. Think on, you Hippies!

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:52 AM

Sigh...

Good job I get irony (or is it ironed...?)

Anyway. You upper class twits would have been OK anyway. Wasn't the King a closet facist?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:01 AM

"Irony" Hmmmm..... That is the usual glib response from the posters of contentious threads when the heat turns up. "I'm much cleverer than you, I was only being ironic, and you did not get it"
   Delete Irony and add Naivety.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM

I wasn't talking about my irony, twit! I don't have an ironic bone in my body! Apart from the irony bone, but that's another matter...

I was talking about yours.

It was irony wasn't it?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:01 AM

In the case of all wars, it is sometimes worth considering the aims for which the war was originally declared (or the surprise attack originally launched, or whatever). Sometimes, it is possible that a limited objective can be achieved without all sorts of ramifications and unintended factors getting in the way. (Example: the Falkland Islands War).

More often, a confused original situation combined with half-hearted statement of intentions produce all sorts of surprises, or an inevitable drift into an unwanted situation.

The Anglo-American War of 1812 is one I have studied (and visited some of the Battlefields). The Americans declared war against Britain on the grounds against some British Orders-in-Council aimed at blockading Napoleon's Europe hid American commerce hard, and high-handed impressment of seamen into the RN from American merchant ships. Within a couple of months, the offending Orders-in-Council had been rescinded, and American seamen could obviously no longer be taken into the RN (though as prisoners-of-war or interned belligerents, their situation wasn't immediately much better). But it took another two and a half years before Britain and America stopped fighting.

The Americans did win one important strategic victory. Tecumseh's confederation of Indian tribes naturally allied itself with the British and depended on them for weapons and supplies. The Americans broke the confederation, and killed Tecumseh himself. However, they would have achieved this sooner or later, with or without the War of 1812.

Other than some of the Indian peoples, the only losers of the War of 1812 were the unfortunate inhabitants of Washington, York (modern-day Toronto) and several other communities around Chesapeake Bay, the Niagara River and in modern-day Ontario, who lost their homes and other property, and sometimes suffered worse indignities and mistreatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 09:45 AM

The big winners in every war are the profiteering corporations that donate to the political bosses and thereby receive the big defense contracts and huge awards for reconstruction. The war mongering polititions have usually won re-election also. America has certainly had its share of war time winners in this catagory.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:55 AM

Ah yes, Alaska Mike, I wondered when somebody was going to wade in with the usual left-wing pratter about America's corporations.

Ebbie: As I recall, we DID fight the Chinese during the Korean war.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:08 AM

But Korea involved lots of countries and therefore wasn't eligible for the "on her own" requirement laid down by Dave in his opening post.

What's particularly left-wing about distrusting big corporations and crooked politicians, Doug? If people don't trust big government, why on earth should they trust big business any more? At the end of the day you find the same names on the payroll at the top either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 11:31 AM

"War is the ultimate failure." Always thought it was, "...the continuation of policy by other means", Carl von Clausewitz (1780-1831).

Has America ever won a war? - Yes loads of them, haven't any of you seen the movies.

Interesting post on the 1812 War, HuwG. A book "The Lion & The Eagle" among others put "Orders-in-Council" and impressment of American sailors as being only the pretexts given for "Mr Madison's War" What the pro-war faction in the United States wanted a war for was to break the Treaty signed with the Indian nations and allow expansion into and beyond the Ohio and Wabash Valleys. In short just another land grab.

"Oh the Redman was pressed
From his home in the West
Grasping Founding Fathers grabbed more
And in deals with the Frog's
Bought up hills, streams and bogs
Till the land stretch-ed from shore to shore"

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 01:14 PM

Well, all right!

Let's draw lots and take sides and start refighting some of these battles again! I'd like to take the first shot, at the 11:31am GUEST, not so much for that cheap shot as per the misnamed War of 1812, as for the bad poetry.

Some one ought to send in a detachment to take out Dave the Gnome, again, not for starting the thread, but for trying to smooth things over in such a lame way.

I expect any number of people would like to lob a few grenades at Little Hawk, who always seems to use his high ground for the purposes of sniping.

I don't think we have to worry too much about Beverly Barton, who has no particular ground to defend, but insists on advancing into no-man's land--when you're stumbling around in a minefield, it's only a matter of time!

As to Foolestroupe, DougR has got you and Alaska Mike in his sites, as well as anyone else who attacks the military industrial complex and the CIA--

Now the thing is that the Blue Army thinks that they are going to corner Bobert and McGrath any day, and they been claiming this for years--but theRed Army always manages to take down all comers--and when things get tight, Catspaw always jumps in with his secret weapon--

As to NicoleC and the rest of you--if you have't figured out which side you're on, ask--because everyone else knows where you stand, even if you don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 01:46 PM

Song M.Ted, bad song (tune as for Home on the range)

"the misnamed War of 1812" ? Google it up and you get stacks of hits for "Mr. Madison's War" relating to the "War of 1812". Nothing misnamed about it, you little tinker.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM

Hmmm ! - I was going to stay out of this thread, as I could see it dgenerating into a spate of transatlantic/leftish v rightish US of A bashing. Something I have forsworn since 11th Sept.01.

However - Spaw has put his finger on it, as did Amos in another thread. The War against Disease, Poverty, Illiteracy etc. I do not know if the US of A has every formally declared war on this factors, be they internal or external.

Amos raised FDR's four freedoms some days ago, Spaw raised the spectre of poverty. Historically, if I recall Kennedy started the Peace Corp and USAID to developing nations. Trueman gave us the Marshall Aid.

Not withstanding positions on the very neccessary action against the Iraqui dictatorship, and the fundamentalist theocracy in Afghanistan I can't help thinking that if a fraction of the effort poured into the military over the past 50 years ago had been spent on education, and developing basic education, transport and health foundations in the developing world then the need, or desire for military intervention would have subsided.

In the few cases that it might have been rendered neccessary there would not have been this kneejerk anto US of A government protests that seem to be the norm, and the world may well have followed the US of A's lead.

It might have also lead to the position where Bush Jnr would have been unlectable, despit Bro Jebs efforts in purging the electorial rolls.

Just my thoughts !

On a change of tack - The Navel War of 1812 gave a much needed boost to Royal Navey thinking, both on tactics, and conditions for the crew on the lower deck. I think it is fair to say that the foundation for the developement of the Royal Navey as a career, worthy of all, arose from the first frigate actions.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 05:33 PM

Quite right, Gareth. The USA built far and away the best frigates in the world in the early 1800's, and had some excellent captains commanding them. The British learned a lot from their brief experience fighting the US Navy in 1812-14.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

I say "misnamed" because the name is misleading.

The general impression that the designation "The War of 1812" creates, is that the war happened in 1812--It is true that the war, which was recommended by James Madison in November 1811,was declared in June 1812. However, though Congress debated it for seven months, it seems that no one actually prepared for the war during that time. This would have been fatal had the British forces been otherwise engaged. Due to the slow start-up, most of the interesting stuff happened in 1813, 1814, saving the most decisive battle til after the war was ended, as mentioned above, in 1815.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:41 PM

How can the Battle of New Orleans count as a decisive battle, since it happened after the war was supposed to be over, so it couldn't have any effect on the result? Good song eventually, but that's a different matter. Like scoring after the final whistle.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:47 PM

Dave the gnome:

You asked about the Mexican War so...

... President Polk sent Us troop into Mexican territory and, as occupiers (invaders) they we resisted by the Mexicans. Then Polk goes to Congress with his indignation and says...

... "Hey, we've been attacked by Mexicans!" so...

... Congress authorized the war and a greatly overpowered Mexico was dispatched and,,,

... the US got Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and parts of California in the "settlement"...

Now, that's the way it was...

More like an armed robbery than a war...

But, hey, the First Nation folks know all about that stuff.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:54 PM

No, things don't change much, do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 07:57 PM

Doug, who is the big beneficiary in war? the companies that make bullets and bombs, or the local gas station attendants?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 08:18 PM

Ahhhh, the gas station attendants?....

No?....

The arms manufacturers...

No...

The attendants...

No, the gun guys...

No...

Is this a trick question, Kendall?

Next time just make it muliple guess and mark me down fir "C', will yeah....

I've got a headache...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 10:53 PM

Back to the 1812. As a GUEST posted, it is (and was at the time) a common belief that the maritime concerns of the Tidewater communities were only a pretext for the acquisitive pioneers to grab more Indian and Canadian land.

One of their spokesmen was Congressman John Randolph, of Roanoke in Virginia. He thundered in Congress, "Agrarian cupidity, not maritime right, urges this war. We have heard but one word, like the whipoorwill; but one eternal monotonous tone: Canada ! Canada ! Canada !"

Now you can argue that Randolph was a brave and conscientous man, who stood up honestly against what he perceived as a dishonourable course for his country to take. Or you can argue that he was a traitor, responsible for the US embarking on a war after months of debate, almost completely unprepared to wage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 02:04 AM

By winning the Battle of New Orleans, the US held onto it's access to the Missisippi, which meant access to the Louisiana Purchase--

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 10:47 AM

Amos, even if one calls Korea a victory (I don't), it still doesn't qualify under the terms of the thread.

First, officially it was not the US but the UN fighting against the North Koreans.

If you (probably rightly) discount that, I remind you that the US was not alone. There were troops of other countries there, fighting along with us. Sure, our troops were the majority, but not alone, as posited by the first post above.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 11:02 AM

Yeah, Dave, you're right. Sorry I got a bit stirred up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:40 PM

Nobody never wants to talk about Granada. Come on, be proud. Kicked their butts. -guest

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 01:42 PM

Some one ought to send in a detachment to take out Dave the Gnome, again, not for starting the thread, but for trying to smooth things over in such a lame way.

Just try it, M Ted, just try it...;-)

I have never smoothed anything over in my life - as can be seen by the state of my shirts. Besides, I have just completed a course in Kung Shui (The are of arranging furniture so enemies fall over it) so any attempt at such a sortee will be ill fated.

Mind you, if you are offering to take me out to the pub I am sure things could be arranged.

LOL

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Walrus
Date: 19 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM

Re:- War of 1812 & Impressment of American seamen.

The problem with the pressing of American seamen came from the American attitude that anyone on American soil (or an American deck) could declare themselves 'American', making American ships a haven for RN deserters and those British sailors seeking to avoid impressment (a risk run by all British merchant seamen except those on Indiamen) - as there was no easy way to tell to tell many Americans from British (and as the British government didn't recognise any change in citizenship) many unscrupulous captains saw American ships as 'fair game'.
As for the outcome of the war, the invasions of Canada failed (as did the counter-invasions of the USA), the treaty left the situation as Status Quo Ante and, as by this time the need for a large 'Fleet in Being' or blockade had been removed, the situation was totally disarmed; Thus, I would say that the War of 1812 was a draw at best, except for the dead and disposessed, who, as with every other war, lost.

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:59 AM

But WHY has the US, on the winning side in so many wars, won so few on her own? In 1898, the Cubans were in revolt against Spain before the US entered. In 1917, WWI had been long under way before the US intervened. In 1941, WWII had been long under way. The two Koreas were already fighting when the UN, including the US, went in. The two Vietnams had been fighting, and the French had intervened, before the US intervened. Iraq attacked Kuwait first, then the Allies intervened. In Afghanistan, the war against the Taliban had been going on for years before the events of September 11 persuaded the US to intervene. In the present war, the US is supported by a coalition, especially by the UK. The US hasn't won many wars ON HER OWN for the simple reason that she hasn't BEEN in many wars on her own.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 04:02 AM

And that's bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: The Walrus
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 06:05 AM

Kent Davis wrote
"... The US hasn't won many wars ON HER OWN for the simple reason that she hasn't BEEN in many wars on her own..."

Ebbie wrote
"And that's bad? "

No that's not a bad thing, but what is bloody annoying is the way *some* Americans immediately assume, nay believe, that, no matter what happened, it was The Americans -and no-one else- who won the conflict (never the alliance/ coalition/ what have you).

Merry Christmas

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 12:56 PM

We don't believe in starting fights.
Not all Americans are war mongers, and most of us didn't vote for "Bush lite" either.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:31 AM

No, Ebbie, it's not bad. It's multilateralism.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 01:41 PM

Don't forget the big one - the conquest, occupation and settlement of the territory that became the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

We learned invasion and exploitation from the masters, our English relatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:33 PM

The War of 1812 - it's wrong to assume that the USA was fighting on its own as the greater part of the Royal Navy and nearly all the British Army was keeping an eye on a certain Mr Bonaparte and his navy and army for most of the time. The only lesson that the Royal Navy learnt was that British ships could not always take on bigger ships and win, as they had often done in the past.

The answer so far seems to be that seldom does a nation fight a war on its own - as it makes much more sense to get other nations to help out. Start by making a list of wars that are fought by single nations and work on from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Not to mention that we learned the art of slavery from the masters too. And did you know that during World War II Canada too interned people of Japanese descent? Canadians- those nice folks??

The best defense is ATTACK!!!!

*BG*

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:07 PM

Not a question of learning from the British. You were
British at that point in history. Warts and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

even the Spanish and French? and the Scots?   And the slaves? I would agree thet the majority were from England, but not in toto

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:18 PM

Kendall - a shame you couldn't learn about slavery from 'the masters (your) English relatives - we did in the trade in 1807 and the practice (officially at least!) throughout the whole Empire (a big place) in the 1830s. We didn't need a major civil war to do it either!
From one of your English masters.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 05:39 PM

I don't think there is cause for smugness or complacency in any country now, or in the past. England certainly has a history of bloodshed and exploitation. That tends to go right along with power.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 07:18 PM

Oh my God! you mean to say none of us is lily white?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 07:27 PM

Hmmm ! Going back to a previous posting of mine has any US of A President declared war on Poverty, Illness tec since the days of FDR and LBJ ????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 09:10 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Dec 03 - 09:19 PM

And don't hold your breath waiting for it. You don't fight poverty by landing bigger weapons and oil contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 06:22 AM

kendall 21 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

"We learned invasion and exploitation from the masters, our English relatives."

Really? and here's us non-Americans being told to believe what great documents your Constitution and Bill of Rights are. How enlightened they were and how they broke the mold of the times when our two nations seperated.

What was it exactly that "forced" the newly emergent United States to pursue it's policy of slavery until 1865 where a civil war was required to impose that state in the USA (after all the old country implemented the abolishion in 1807 and completed it by 1830 i.e. within 54 years of your declaration of independence). Having abolished slavery it then took damn near another 100 years for those you freed to "win" their civil rights (Yes the ones painstakingly scribed out in 1776)   

What was it that "forced" successive American administrations to break damn near every single treaty signed with the American Indian Nations?

The answer in both instances has got nothing to do with your former "masters" - the matter lay with the respective US Governments of the time - accept that they take responsibility for what path they chose to take.

Ebbie 21 Dec 03 - 02:39 PM

Ref the above with regard to Slavery - as usual you are talking complete and utter hogwash.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:01 AM

jimmyt - 21 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

"even the Spanish and French? and the Scots?   And the slaves? I would agree thet the majority were from England, but not in toto"

I think that the French and the Scots have (100 years War and Scottish Wars of Independence) both of which established their Kingdoms free from any foreign Claimant to the their respective Thrones.

Majority of slaves were from England? from England or shipped by the English? Either is incorrect. Arabs, French, Spanish, Portuguese come a long way ahead of Britain. The only agreement Wellington got from the Congress of Vienna in 1815 was that the other European states would abolish slavery in line with Britain - he only managed to get that out of them because that certain Mr. Bonaparte escaped from Elba and those attending the Congress decided that Wellington really needed to be elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:11 AM

Teribus, I'll match our atrocities with those of England any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:16 AM

Besides, as I recall, it was the Dutch, not the English who started the slave trade.
Furthermore, Teribus, money and greed were the driving forces in maintaining the slave trade. We Liberals are not driven by the love of money. The problem is, the few people who control most of the money run things, and they are not Liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:06 PM

I've read this thread. The huge majority of you lot need to find one of the following:

A decent history of the War of 1812, including the issues and causes leading up to it;

A decent history of the United States military;

A decent history of the British military;

A life.

For those of you deciding to not get a life, start with John Keegan's books. Fercryinoutloud.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 01:24 PM

Isn't studying history and getting a life something of a contradiction, Pete...;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:17 PM

I majored in American history. Now, what is your problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 07:42 PM

Errr ! Kendall, isn't the fact that you majored in US of A History your problem ????.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 08:04 PM

Teribus, you are so full of it. Subtlety is not your strong suit, I gather.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:08 PM

Why is it MY problem?

There are two major causes of war. Greed and testosterone

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:41 PM

perhaps there is only one cause of greed? testosterone? oh, I left out estrogin!

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 09:47 PM

Women don't start wars

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Dec 03 - 11:35 PM

Dyer's books are a must read, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 04:12 AM

I'm not too sure whether some of the flak in this thread (e.g. PeteBoom's) is directed at me, but I will plough on with such research and wit as I have.

Incidentally, I first became interested in the subject while doing basic military training at Maindy Barracks in Cardiff. This was home to part of the Royal Regiment of Wales, formed in 1969 by the amalgamation of the South Wales Borderers and the Welch Regiment. The Welsh Regiment was formerly the 41st of Foot; and they celebrate "Detroit" as their outstanding historical triumph. (The Borderers celebrated Rorke's Drift, and other Zulu War battles).

One of my first fatigues was to assist in moving the Welsh Regiment's museum to its present home in Cardiff Castle. Their prize exhibit is the colours of the U.S. 4th Infantry, captured at Detroit. To claim that they were captured in battle is a little cheeky, as they were handed over, along with the entire army, by a former Revolutionary War hero gone senile (Brigadier-General Hull). But, the 41st deserved some reward for all their hard work.

Incidentally, it is a miracle that the colours survived the two miles between Maindy and the Castle; we ought to have checked O/Cdt C***s P****'s driving license before letting him anywhere near a Land Rover, but all's well that ends well; and I'm sure that nobody will divulge this little secret.


Anyway, enough prologue. This thread got me thinking, when did Britain last win a war unaided ? I will leave out Civil Wars and uprisings such as the '15 and '45. The Falklands War is perhaps an example. (The supply of AIM-9L air-to-air missiles does not invalidate the claim, in my humble opinion). However, the British forces in the Falklands included a Gurkha battalion, even though there were well-trained British units available to go.

Before that ? Well, most of the successful counter-insurgency wars from 1948 to 1976 were won with the help of Gurkhas (Nepalis) or Omanis. In both World Wars, the entire Commonwealth was involved, along with the U.S. and France and other allies. The Boer War also involved Commonwealth contingents. Most of the colonial wars of Victoria's reign also involved Indian, Egyptian / Sudanese, native African or other allies. The long wars against Napoleon involved any number of allies, and of coalitions of nations hostile to Napoleon. The 1812 was a draw.

You could argue that Britain won the French and Indian War, only if you count the Colonials (Americans) as British; and most home-grown British commanders treated the Colonials very ungraciously, where they didn't actually despise them. So, let's (very quickly) leave this one out. In any case, Britain had an ally on the continent of Europe, namely Frederick the Great of Prussia, although the difficulty of getting men and munitions across the Atlantic was the root cause of French defeat in America, rather than the demands of campaigning against Fred.

Prior to that, you had odd European brawls in which Britain took the opportunity to grab colonies. Again, Britain's sea power allowed these to be isolated, and other countries' land strength was immaterial. Mind you, I don't think Jenkins ever did get his ear back.

Finally, we get to some of the Anglo-Dutch wars. For some of these, Britain had Louis XIV of France as an ally; for others, it was a straight fight. Britain won the wars, but the Dutch won some brilliant battles, and much of the Honour, if you can attach such a term to a commercial squabble, which Al Capone and Bugs Moran would comprehend instantly.

The Spanish Armada was a single episode in a long war between Elizabeth's England and Spain, which also was a draw. The Hundred Years War was obviously a defeat. And so on.


In fact, if you draw up the definition of "allied" or "friendly" very carefully and comprehensively, you could argue that Britain has never won a war, unaided.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 11:42 AM

Actually, HuwG, I thought your first post was really good - as was this most recent one. In fact, they and a couple of others in this thread give good information without ranting. Maybe I've simply lost my patience with much of the sound-byte-news / ranting-ill-informed-heads talk shows and all that goes with them, but this thread is a classic example of what passes for "news" these days. The amount of dueling non-information in this thread reminds me why I usually ignore BS threads.

Finally - Kendal, I'd have expected more in a discussion like this from someone who majored in US History than I would from an ex-squaddie. That is my "problem."

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 03 - 12:10 PM

Pete Boom - And you need to find a way to overcome the dire temptations of opening BS threads. :-) Think of the valuable time you have already wasted just by looking in here! I think that with a little professional help (counseling) you could probably reach the point where you never you never look into the BS section again at all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:22 AM

HuwG,

The presence of a Gurkha Battalion in the Flaklands conflict does not equate with Nepal being an ally in that fight.

If memory serves me correctly Nepal allows the armed forces of the UK, India and Brunei to recruit soldiers for services in their armed forces. The British Army used to have three Gurkha Regiments (now reduced to one); the Indian Army has one Gurkha Regiment; and a Gurkha Regiment forms the bodyguard for the Sultan of Brunei.

I enjoy reading your posts, all the best in 2004.

kendall,

I note that you ignored the two questions asked

Ebbie,

I would compare my knowledge of the history of the slave trade to yours any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 06:08 PM

Amerikky won the war against it's Natives. Sure whomped our Cherokee asses!

But, y'all enjoy yourselves now at our casinos! Yessir, all royalties GRATEFULLY accepted. Step right up! Heh,heh.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 04 - 11:14 PM

I said, "Not to mention that we learned the art of slavery from the masters too." Teribus, if you don't catch the implications there, it's OK; I realize that some great intellects don't pick up nuances. But perhaps it would be helpful if I parsed it out for you: "We", by that I mean the American colonists who were, by and large, English, "learned", by which I mean that we were present and participated in; "the art of slavery", an unprincipled but lucrative and convenient activity; "from the masters", meaning the government to which most of us belonged; "too", meaning in addition to other things.

You are a silly, i.e. pompous, man. But that is OK. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 12:43 AM

The subject is just a bit silly. The United States won a whole lot of wars on its own. Most of them extremely small wars. Can't think of too many modern countries who won big ones on their own, not lately, anyway. I suppose Vietnam defeated the U.S.

Hey Doug! If we had gone all out and "won" in Vietnam, does anyone imagine the world would be a better place today? In exactly what respect would the world be better off? Enough to warrant 10,000 more dead? 100,000? A war with China? I recall Barry Goldwater wanted to use the atomic bomb. Would we be better off if that had been done?

But now, people forget that at the time of the war with Mexico, Mexico was not a small nation. Not by comparison. The Mexican Army was about 4 times as large as the United States Army. Winfield Scott walked right into the middle of Mexico, and if he had lost a single battle he would have been destroyed. He did not lose a single one. The Duke of Wellington, not known for his modesty, called Scott the greatest living general. Among Scott's junior officers were Lee, Jackson, Grant, Longstreet, and Beauregard. If you want to brag about military achievements, that was one.

But are we really sure we want to brag all that much about military achievements. The kind of country that is best at winning wars is not the necessarily the best one to live in. A friend of mine in grad school wrote a doctoral dissertation comparing the southern slaveholder to the Prussian Junker. Very strong parallels there. Those guys make fine soldiers. Lots of military virtues. Maybe one should cultivate other virtues as well -- or instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 05:09 AM

Ebbie 05 Jan 04 - 11:14 PM.

Before you spout forth why don't you do some research. If the "English" colonists learned the "art of slavery" from anyone it was from the Dutch. Who were established in what became New York. Those particular colonists introduced slavery in 1621. The first "black" slaves (20 of them) brought to an "English" colony were landed from a Dutch ship at Jamestown, their status in the "English" colony was that of indetured servant.

The first slaves used in Cromwell's Commonwealth times in Jamaica were Scots prisoners taken after the Battle of Dunbar.

Subject: RE: BS: Has America ever won a war?
From: HuwG
Date: 06 Jan 04 - 09:16 AM

Ducking the crossfire over the slave trade, thank you Teribus for your post.

One clarification for readers; in the British Army an infantry "Regiment" is not actually a fighting unit. It is an administrative body of men with similar hat badges and base depot and usually the same recruiting area. The fighting unit is the battalion. A regiment may have one or more battalions, athough one battalion is usual nowadays. In the field, battalions are organised, along with armoured and artillery regiments (which are fighting units), into Brigades.

The British Army used to have four Gurkha regiments of one or two battalions from 1948 to 1985 ?? when it was reduced to three, each of one battalion. In 1999, this was reorganised into one regiment of three battalions, thus saving a lot of paperwork. On the other hand, it may have introduced complications and internal friction, as the separate Regiments used to recruit from different areas and tribes (and sometimes different castes) within Nepal.

****

I recall quite well the debates which went on at the time of the Falklands War. Some people suggested that as Nepal wasn't concerned in the South Atlantic dispute, the Gurkhas should have been left out of the Task Force. However, the view that they were soldiers of the British Army above all else prevailed, and off they went.

There was far more acrimonious debate (in the Army, not the British public in general) over why the Welsh Guards and especially the Scots Guards went south. Both were "public duties" battalions i.e. their role was shouting and stamping and parading to and fro outside Buckingham Palace. The British Army maintains a "spearhead" battalion, highly trained and ready to go at a moment's notice. In 1982, this was the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Greenjackets. They were not sent. [There was also an "ACE Mobile Force" battalion, similarly trained and ready, but this was assigned to NATO duties and could not have been used without much complaint from NATO.]

To be fair, the Welsh Guards had only recently finished a tour of duty as the "spearhead" battalion and an intense training spell in Kenya, and was reasonably fit for role. The Scots Guards were in no such shape. In the event, the Welsh Guards suffered the disaster at Bluff Cove, but this is hardly a reflection on the unit itself, while the Scots Guards won the tough and decisive battle for Mount Tumbledown.