Origins: Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away

Subject: Some tyrant
From: GUEST,Dave Walters
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 02:08 PM

Anyone got the words to a song with the rather catchy title of "Some tyrant has taken my true love away"? I heard a lovely version by Keith Kendrick recently but I don't know if it's on an album. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Some tyrant
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 02:43 PM

Descended from a mid 17th century popular song expanded by Laurence Price into "Loves fierce desires and hopes of recovery", which is in the Laurence Price file on my website. www.erols.com/olsonw. Sometimes begins "The Americans have stolen my dearest away. See Margaret Dean Smith's 'A Guide to English Folk Song Collections' for several traditional versions in books of folksongs and JFSS. (2 tunes for it in JFSS are stressed note and mode cooded in file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Some tyrant
From: Lesley N.
Date: 15 Apr 00 - 06:57 PM

I have lyrics and a midi of it at "Some Rival has Stolen my True Love away" at Rival (http://www.contemplator.com/folk6/rival.html). The music and information there is from Lucy Broadwood (1898), so it may not be the same lyrics.

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Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 08:34 PM

Well, I lost my notes. Can someone please identify the version of "Some Tyrant has Stolen My True Love Away" (Roud 587 that contains the following stanza:

The bugle shall speak and the serpent shall sing
There'll be instruments of music for to make the valleys ring.
Oh the huntsman he'll holler and the hounds make their noise
For to fill my love's heart with ten thousand bright joys

I can find this on the internet among the lyrics of songs of a CD, but of course there is no hint as to the source of this version.

Stephen R.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 09:12 PM

That verse is from Henry Hills, late of Lodsworth in Sussex. It was included with other songs noted from him by W Percy Merrick in The Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol. I (3) 1901, p. 96, titled My True Love I've Lost.

I take it we're talking about a recent recording made by Kate Rusby? Her arrangement is clearly based on Mr Hills' text, but there has been some editorial work done at some point (probably before it got to Kate) and the first verse has been grafted on from elsewhere, I'd say.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 10:27 PM

I don't think we have this song posted anywhere at Mudcat or in the DT. If someone has lyrics, please post them. If you have a tune/melody, e-mail it to me for posting.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-
[e-mail]

---

there's a bit of an entry at folktrax.org:

SOME RIVAL HAS STOLEN MY TRUELOVE AWAY - "and I in Old England no longer can stay" - lament for lover's absence - ROUD#587 - BROADWOOD ETSC 1908 pp108-111 & p125 Mr Lough, Dunsfold, Surrey 1898 (notes on song) - SHARP-KARPELES CSC 1974 1 pp487-8 John Fox, Bagborough, Somerset 1908/ Mrs Beechy, Shipton, Oxfordsh 1911 1v/m "My True Love is Lost" & 2 pp631-2 Robert Rowlands, Shipley, Sussex 1908 "The Americans have stolen my true love away" - JFSS 1:3 1901 p96 Merrick, Henry Hills, Lodsworth, Sussex 1899 "My True Love I've Lost" - JFSS 1:4 1902 p205 Lucy Broadwood: Mr Lough/ p208 Henry Burstow, Horsham, Sussex (1v/m) & Mr Woodham, Warnham, Sussex (w/o) "The Americans" - JFSS 3:12 1908 pp223-8 Grainger: Alfred Hunt, Wimbledon, Surrey 1905 "The Merry King" ("It's a merry king of Old England -") - GRAINGER ONS#19/ RNS#10 Alfred Hunt, Wimbledon, Surrey 1905 "The Merry King" - WILLIAMS FSUT 1923 p179 #348 King family, Castle Eaton, Wiltsh (w/o) "The Rifles" - REEVES IOP 1958 pp98-99 Robert Rowlands (w/o) "The Americans" - REEVES EC 1960 pp245-6 Richard Read, Bishop's Sutton, Hampsh (w/o) "Some rival has stolen" - DAWNEY PG 1977 p5 George Butterworth: Mrs Cranstone, Wood dale, Sussex 1907 "The American King" - Cf CUCKOO, THE - see DEAN- SMITH notes p106 -- STEELEYE SPAN: CHRYSALIS CHR-1151 1977

Subject: ADD: The Americans Have Stolen My True Love Away
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:17 PM

THE AMERICANS HAVE STOLEN MY TRUE LOVE AWAY
[Trad. arr. E. Carthy, E. Boyd, S. Rose]

The Americans have stolen my true love away
And I in old England no longer can stay
I will cross the briny ocean all on my sad breast
To find out my true love who I do love best

And when I have found him, my joy and delight
I'll be constant unto him by day and by night
I will always prove as constant as a true turtle dove
And I never will in no time prove false to my love

When meeting is a pleasure but parting's a grief
And an inconstant lover is worse than a thief
For a thief he will but rob you, take all that you have
But an inconstant lover brings you to the grave

The grave it will rot you and bring you to dust
There is not one in twenty pretty ladies can trust
For they'll kiss you and court you and swear they'll prove true
And the very next morning they will bid you adieu

Come all you pretty maidens wherever you be
Don't settle your mind on yon sycamore tree
For the leaves they will wither and the branches will die
And you'll be forsaken, you won't know not for why.


Transcribed by Kira White.


Sung by Eliza Carthy on her album Rice with Saul Rose playing melodeon and Ed Boyd guitar.

Compare this to Steeleye Span's Some Rival on their album Storm Force Ten

from the Garry Gillard/Reinhard Zierke Waterson/Carthy Website

Subject: ADD: Some Rival
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:19 PM

Here's the Steeleye Span version of the song:

SOME RIVAL
[Trad. arr. Kemp / Prior / Hart / Carthy / Kirkpatrick]

Some rival has stolen my true love away
So I in old England no longer can stay
I will swim the wide ocean around my fair breast
To find out my true love, the one I love the best

And when I have found out my joy and delight
I will welcome him kindly by day and by night
For the bells shall be ringing and the drums make a noise
For to welcome my true love with ten thousand joys

Here's a health to all lovers that are loyal and just
Here's confusion to the rival that lives in distrust
For it's I'll be as constant as a true turtle dove
And it's never will I prove false to my love

(repeat first verse)

Steeleye Span recorded this lovely song for their tenth album, Storm Force Ten.

Compare this to Eliza Carthy singing The Americans Have Stolen My True Love Away on her album Rice.




source: Reinhard Zierke, [e-mail]

Subject: Lyr Add: Some Tyrant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 03 - 11:29 PM

I gather these are the lyrics Stephen found:

SOME TYRANT

Some tyrant has stolen my true love away
And here in old England I can no longer stay
I'll cross the wide ocean, ne'er on my bed rest
In search of my true love that I love the best.

When that I've found out my joy and my delight
I will welcome her kindly by day and by night.
Here's a health to all others that are loyal and just
And here's confusion to the rivals that lives in distrust.

There's Venus and Volum they are both joined as one,
So keep yourselves single as you and I have done,
So keep yourselves single and constant I'll retire
Unto her like some Venus that flourishes like fire.

The bugle shall speak and the serpent shall sing
There'll be instruments of music for to make the valleys ring.
Oh the huntsman he'll holler and the hounds make their noise
For to fill my love's heart with ten thousand bright joys.

Repeat first verse +

I know not where I'll find the one I love the best.

Pure Records
Title: Some Tyrant
Album: Little Lights

Source: http://www.absolutelyric.com/a/view/Pure_Records/Some_Tyrant/

OK, so I can't figure out from that who the recording artist was - Pure Records??? Another source says the artist was Kate Rusby, and the album was Littel Lights. That makes more sense. It was also recorded by the Etchingham Steam Band as "Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away."
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:41 AM

This place is incredible, That's all!!


A

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: nutty
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 05:44 AM

There is an early broadside here in the Bodleian Library that may be where the song originated ......

Some tyrant has stolen my dearest away

Printers:Coles, F. (London); Vere, T. (London); Wright, J. (London);          Clarke, J. (London); Thackeray, W. (London); Passinger, T.         (London)
Date:   between 1678 and 1680
   
         Imprint: Printed for F. Coles, T. Vere, J. Wright, J. Clarke,          W. Thackery, and T. Passinger
         Illus. Ballads on sheet: 1
   
         
Copies: Douce Ballads 1(114b)
   
         
Ballads: 1.Loves fierce desire, and hopes of recovery. Or, A true and            brief description of two resolved lovers ("Now the tyrant            hath stolen my dearest away ...")
          Author: Price, Laurence
          To the tune of: Fair angel of England.

Subject: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 10:17 AM

Well, I have lost my notes. Can someone please identify the version of Roud 587, 'Some tyrant has stolen my true love away' (aka 'Some rival . . . ,' 'The merry king . . . ,' 'The Americans . . . '. etc.)?

The bugle shall speak & the serpent shall sing;
There'll be instruments of music for to make the valleys ring.
Oh, the huntsman he'll holler & the hounds make their noise
For to fill my love's heart with ten thousand joys.

This is easy to find on the internet as a lyric on a CD, but of course there is no information about the source of the version, which is what I need.

Thanks,

Stephen R.

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I moved this message from another thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Stephen R.
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 10:22 AM

Thank you all, and in particular Malcolm Douglas for coming up with exactly the information I need.

Stephen R.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:48 AM

There has been some debate as to the meaning of this song. "Some rival" (corrupted at times into "some rifle") is simple enough, but "some tyrant" often seems to trigger imaginative speculation on the involvement of some monarch or other. There doesn't seem to be any internal evidence to support this, but "the Americans" and "the merry king" both occur instead in the first lines of some versions, which tends to confuse the issue. The one is presumably a corruption of the other, but it is difficult to say which would be the earlier form.

Lucy Broadwood's reference in Traditional English Songs and Carols (1908 p. 125) to a ballad printed in the first half of the 17th century, A courtly new ballad of the princely wooing of the fair maid of London by king Edward, further confuses the matter: Miss Broadwood wondered whether Edward IV might be the "merry king", and people have since not infrequently taken her remark to indicate a firm connection with Some Rival (Lesley Nelson goes a step further and states without evidence that it is another version of it, though that isn't what Miss Broadwood said) but the only clear connection is the fact that, in common with a number of other otherwise unrelated songs, they were set to the same tune. Fair Angel of England, the tune indicated for Price's Loves fierce desire, derived its name from the first line of the "courtly new ballad": this was set to Bonny sweet Robin, which so far as we can tell was the original name of the tune. (See Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 59-64.)

The full text of Price's Loves fierce desire is transcribed at Bruce Olson's site:

Loves fierce desire, and hopes of Recovery

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST, NOMADman
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 11:58 AM

The Keith Kendrick version can be found on his 1997 CD "Home Ground" - Fellside FECD118. The words are as posted above by Joe Offer, with very minor variations.

Regards,
John

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST,Harlowpoet
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 12:57 PM

I've heard this song plenty of times over the years, especially by Keith Kendrick,who sings it brilliantly. However due to the mood it invokes, the word tyrant never seems appropriate.

The word I'd replace it with probably wouldn't be appropriate for a folk club either.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 01:22 PM

Joe posted three texts. Which one do you mean? (I assume it's the second, from what I recall of the Kendrick recording. Certainly he used that tune).

The texts quoted above are all from recordings made by revival performers, and need to be referred back to their traditional sources if they are to be useful other than as unattributed raw material.

The text from Steeleye Span is easy enough: it is the set from Lucy Broadwood's Traditional English Songs and Carols (1908, 108-11), which was noted from Mr Lough (a farm labourer) at Dunsfold, Surrey, in 1898. This is also the set quoted by Lesley at her site.

The text from Eliza Carthy appears to be collated from two sources: a set noted by Cecil Sharp from Robert Rowlands at Shipley, Sussex, in 1908; and one which appeared in The Journal of the Folk Song Society (I (4) 1902 205); tune and first verse from Henry Burstow of Horsham, Sussex, with four verses from Mr Woodman (like Henry, a bell-ringer) at Warnham, Sussex. A few additional changes have been made to the text as transcribed here. I don't have Eliza's Red Rice, so I can't say whether she used Henry Burstow's tune or Robert Rowlands'. Verses 1, 2, 5: Mr Rowlands. Verses 3 (a standard floating verse, here changed a bit from its form in FSJ) and 4: Mr Woodman.

The text from Kate Rusby is, as I mentioned, based on Henry Hills' My True Love I've Lost (Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (3) 1901, 96). The first verse is introduced from elsewhere and the second is altered. I can't actually think of any examples of the song found in tradition that begin Some tyrant, though several revival singers have recorded sets under that name. I haven't heard Kate's recording, but she rarely goes to traditional sources for her material, so I'd imagine she has learned somebody's re-write of the Hills set, along with what may have been a mis-hearing in the second line. Whether she uses his tune (which was a variant of The White Cockade) I don't know.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE RIFLES
From: Little Robyn
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM

Keith Kendrick's version is the one Joe posted just before midnight on Christmas Eve.
I also have a version called "The Rifles" which suggest a regiment has taken him overseas....

THE RIFLES

Oh, the Rifles have stolen my dear jewel away,
And I in old England no longer can stay.
I will cross the wide ocean all on my bare breast,
To find my own true love whom I love the best.

And when I have found him, my own heart's delight,
I will prove to him kinder by day and by night.
I will prove to him kinder than the true turtle-dove,
I will never at any time prove false to my love.

And when we are married the bells they shall ring,
With many sweet changes our joys to begin.
The music shall play and the drums make a noise
To welcome my true love with ten thousand bright joys.

My notes say 'Also known as "Some Rival has stolen my true love away". Collected by Mrs Lucy Broadwood in Dunsfold in 1898. Same words collected from the King family in Castle Eaton by Alfred Williams around 1914-16. He called it an 18th C war song.

Eliza's version seems to have picked up floating verses that are found in American songs - like "On top of old Smokey" as well as British ones. But I love the way she sings it (and Keith too).

Robyn

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 07:10 PM

I am sure Vic Gammon sings a version of this which has a verse about a myrtle tree growing in the ocean. Perhaps it was one that was specific to Sussex, where he once used to live.
Anyone know it?

Subject: Lyr Add: MY TRUE LOVE I'VE LOST
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 08:04 PM

As so often, Alfred Williams was guessing in the dark, though his idea that the song belonged to the 18th century might perhaps suggest that the tune he heard was similar to the one Lucy Broadwood published. "Rifles" is almost certainly a corruption of "Rival". The set including the "myrtle tree" verse (another floater) will, I expect, be the one that Percy Grainger found at Wimbledon; the singer, Alfred Hunt, was from Kirdford in West Sussex.


Here is the song as Henry Hills sang it:


MY TRUE LOVE I'VE LOST

(From Henry Hills, late of Lodsworth, Sussex. Noted by W Percy Merrick at Shepperton, Middlesex, November 1899)

My true love I've lost, and I cannot her find,
For who knows, for who knows that she mayn't change her mind?
I'll go and search some shady grove by night and by day,
For to find, for to find, for to find,
For to find out my own true love, the girl that I love best.

And when I have found out my joy and heart's delight,
I'll comfort her more kinder by day and by night;
It's I will prove more constant than any turtle-dove
Unto her, unto her, unto her,
Unto her like some lover I always will prove true.

Here's Venus and Volum, they were both as one,
So keep yourself single as you and I have done;
So keep yourself single, so constant I'll retire
Unto her, unto her, unto her,
Unto her like some Venus that flourishes like fire.

We'll make the bugle speak, and the serpent shall sing,
here's instruments of music for to make those valleys ring;
The huntsman he shall holloa, and the hounds shall make a noise,
For to fill, for to fill, for to fill,
To fill my love's heart with ten thousand of bright joys.


Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (3) 1901, 96.


X:1
T:My True Love I've Lost
S:Henry Hills, late of Lodsworth, Sussex. November 1899.
Z:W Percy Merrick.
B:Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (3) 1901, 96
N:Tune is a White Cockade variant
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:4/4
K:C
"Allegretto"
C2|(C2 E2) G2 G2|(G2 F2) D2 F2|(E2C2) D2 (DB,)|C6 C2|
w:My true_ love I've lost,_ and I can-*not her_ find, For
(C2 E2) G2 G2|(G2 E2) F2 G2|A2 G2 F2 A2|G6 C2|C2 E2 G2 G2|
w:who_ knows, for who_ knows that she mayn't change her mind? I'll go and search some
G2 E2 F2 G2|(A2 G2) E2 C2|(D2E2) (FG) A2|HG4 (G,A,) B,2|C4 F2 G2|
w:sha-dy grove by night_ and by day,_ For_ to find, for_ to find, for to
A4 D3 C|(C2 G2) G2 G2|G2 E2 E2 G2|F3 D E2 E2|C6|]
w:find, For to find_ out my own true love, the girl that I love best.


The tune is a variant of The White Cockade. Cecil Sharp also found examples of the song in much the same form. Volum was glossed as "probably = Vulcan", but it appears that Venus and Volum was actually a mis-hearing of Phœnix and female, as the following broadside example shows:


PHŒNIX AND FEMALE

My true love is lost, and I cannot her find,
Who knows and who knows but she may change her mind,
But I'll go and search the groves by night and by day,
For to find out my true love that never would obey.

And when I do find out my own heart's delight,
I'll comfort her kindly by day and by night
And prove more constant than the turtle dove,
Nor ever prove false to the girl that I love.

The horn it shall sound and the serpent shall sting,
The melodies of music shall make the groves to ring;
The huntsman shall hollo, and the hounds make a noise,
To fill my loves heart with ten thousand sweet joys.

The Phœnix and Female they being both as one
She keeps herself single by living alone,
Be not dearest dear so chaste and so retire,
Left like a Phœnix you perish in the fire.

My heart it is uneasy I can take no rest,
For thinking of the pretty girl that I love best,
For thinking of the pretty girl distresses my mind,
Unto her like some turtle dove will never prove unkind.


Printed and sold by J Pitts, No 14, Great St Andrew Street, Seven Dials. [Between 1802 and 1819]. Bodleian Library, Harding B 16(203c). At the Bodleian Library: Phœnix and Female.


There are echoes in this broadside of Lawrence Price's song, though whether there was any direct influence I wouldn't like to guess. Other forms of Some Rival found in tradition are also a mix of material apparently conflated from Price, whether mediated through the Pitts broadside or another (I think that it was also issued by other printers) or through some other interim source, and of common floating verses.

The forms we have from oral currency fall into two tune groups: those noted by W Percy Merrick (Sussex) and by Cecil Sharp in Oxfordshire and Somerset are sung in 4/4 to a White Cockade variant, with repeated phrases as commonly found with that song; while those noted by Percy Grainger (Surrey), George Butterworth (Sussex), Lucy Broadwood (Surrey and Sussex) and Sharp (Sussex) are sung in 3/4 to variants of a quite different tune which I can't place at the moment, though I'm a little reminded of The Ploughshare (in the DT as The Seasons Round) as the Copper family sing it. The song was also found by Alfred Williams (Wiltshire: no tune noted) and by the Hammond Brothers (Hampshire: tune noted but unpublished). Neither tune group bears any obvious resemblance to Fair Angel of England:


X:1
T:Bonny Sweet Robin
T:Fair Angel of England
B:Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 60.
N:From 1628 virginal arrangement in BM MS Add. 23623, fol. 13v, where it appears as "Bonni well Robin van Doctr. Jan Bull".
N:Original contains varied repeat of each strain.
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:3/4
K:C
D2|:F3 G F2|E3 F D2|c3 A d2|A4:|
|:A2 d2 c2|B3 A G2|c3 B A2|F3 E D2|
c3 B AG|FEFG A2|G2 E4|D6:|]

Subject: Lyr Add: SOME RIVAL HAS STOLEN MY TRUE-LOVE AWAY
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 09:10 PM

Perhaps I should also post the "Broadwood" set. The tune is the best-known one, after all.


SOME RIVAL HAS STOLEN MY TRUE-LOVE AWAY

(From Mr Lough, Dunsfold, Surrey. Noted by Lucy Broadwood, 1898)

Some rival has stolen my true-love away,
So I in old England no longer can stay.
I will swim the wide ocean around my fair breast
To find out my true-love whom I love the best.

When I have found out my true love and delight
I'll welcome her kindly by day and by night,
For the bells shall be a-ringing, and the drum make a noise
To welcome my true-love with ten thousand joys.

Here's a health to all lovers that are loyal and just,
Here's confusion to the rival that lives in distrust,
For it's I'll be as constant as a true turtle-dove,
For I never will at no time prove false to my love.


Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (4) 1902, 205.
Also in Broadwood, Traditional English Songs and Carols (1908, 108-11)


X:1
T:Some Rival has Stolen my True-love Away
S:Mr Lough, Dunsfold, Surrey, 1898.
Z:Noted by Lucy Broadwood
B:Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (4) 1902, 205.
N:Roud 587
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:3/4
K:E
(EF)|G2 G2 B2|F2 F2 B2|G2 A2 F2|E4 (EF)|G2 G2 B2|
w:Some_ ri-val has sto-len my true-love a-way, So_ I in old
F2 F2 B2|G2 (AG) F2|E4 E E|B2 B2 (cB)|G2 E3 E|
w:Eng-land no lon-ger_ can stay. I will swim the wide_ o-cean a-
(cB) G2 E2|(F3 A) (GF)|(ED) C2 (AG)|F2 B,2 (BA)|G2 A2 F2|E4|]
w:round_ my fair breast_ To_ find_ out my_ true-love whom_ I love the best.


Miss Broadwood points out some similarity between this tune and Love Will Find Out the Way, which takes its name from a broadside ballad of c.1630. See what you think.


X:1
T:Love Will Find Out the Way
T:Over the Mountaines
B:Simpson, The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 472.
N:From A Musicall Banquet, 1651, Part I, No. 8, for lyra viol.
Q:1/4=100
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:F
A2 F2 c2|B2 G2 AB|c2 A2 G2|[1 F6:|
[2 F4 EF|G3 A GF|E3 C FG|A2 G3 F|
B4 AB|c3 F ED/|E2 C2 FG|A2 G3 F|F4|]

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Little Robyn
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 10:00 PM

So are there any words to "Bonny Sweet Robin"?
Robyn

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Dec 03 - 10:43 PM

It appears that they are lost; though it may be that Ophelia sings the closing line of one stanza in Hamlet (IV, v):

For bonny sweet Robin is all my joy.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: nutty
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 03:42 AM

Mary .......... the line you mention is certainly included in The American Stranger which is known by other titles including I'm a stranger in this country

In the middle of the ocean shall spring a myrtle tree
If I ever prove unfaithful to the girl who goes with me

Indeed, there are so many variations on this song it really deserves a thread of it's own. It would be very interesting to discover if it is connected with "Some tyrant"

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 11:50 AM

Thanks nutty - now you mention it, Vic did have a song that mentioned American stranger. I am probably confusing the two songs. But, as you say, they are very similar.And I am sure he does sing a 'tyrant' song too.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 02:11 PM

Malcolm, this is the sort of response that warms the cockles of the heart--everything I asked for and more. Tell me, do you suppose the huntsman with horn and hounds in the Hills version is an echo from Love's Fierce Desire, in which it is the temporarily abandoned lover himself who seeks to forget his woes by hunting foxes in the forest? I haven't seen a huntsman in other versions, but haven't studied the song either.

Stephen

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 04:23 PM

It could well be; I haven't looked all that closely, but I had a nice time yesterday chasing up the various oral versions and discovering that broadside, which does appear to contain material ultimately derived from Price; though what happened in the intervening century-or-so is mysterious, of course. What I failed to mention was the other clear division into two groups, in one of which the truelove has been stolen, in the other (to which the Pitts sheet belongs), lost. Both groups contain material apparently deriving from Price, but it seems that there ought really to be another intermediate form including the tyrant or rival. I'll have a look for more huntsmen, too.

The floating "myrtle tree" verse occurs in one example only of Some Rival that I know of, which Percy Grainger found at Wimbledon; the singer, Alfred Hunt, was from Kirdford in West Sussex. I mentioned it earlier, but probably was not specific enough.

What I want to know is how that Tyrant got back into the song. He doesn't appear in any of the traditional sets that I know about. Perhaps Keith Kendrick was responsible?

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 26 Dec 03 - 06:53 PM

Kate Rusby acknowledged Keith Kendrick as her source. He in turn acknowledged Eddie Upton.

John Conolly has written a wonderful new song titled Old Men Sing Love Songs, full of subtle references to folk music. Although his name is not mentioned, the words are about the composer and folk song collector George Butterworth.

One line runs "On the fifth day of August, not a cloud in the sky", which is a paraphrase of the start of Brigg Fair, "It was on the fifth of August, the weather being fine". Butterworth died on 5 August 1916, shot by a sniper at Pozières in the Battle of the Somme.

Another line runs "When the banks of green willow are wasted in war", a reference to Butterworth's composition The Banks of Green Willow. Butterworth took both themes for this piece from the singing of Mr and Mrs Cranstone of Wood Dale, Sussex.

Unwittingly, John Conolly has set his words to a traditional tune, which proves to be one collected in 1907 by Butterworth himself, The American King. By an astonishing coincidence, this too comes from the singing of Mrs Cranstone. See M Dawney, The Ploughboy's Glory, EFDSS, 1977.

The title of the new song is taken from Bill Whaley and Dave Fletcher's second CD Old Men and Love Songs. John Conolly has given the song to Bill and Dave and it can be heard on their brand new CD Less Sprightly.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 06:05 PM

And a great CD it is too!

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Dec 03 - 06:28 PM

Thanks for those connections, Henry. Looks like Eddie re-introduced the tyrant, then.

I was wrong to say that the "myrtle tree" floater only appears in one set; there are actually two among the small number of printed examples available, the other being Mrs Cranstone's (see above). If you disregard floaters and the "Phoenix" conceit, much the same essential material is present in all, most of it traceable to the Price song; though rather changed in some cases.

The main tune appears first in recognisable form (I don't hear much similarity in Fair angel of England, but that might just be me) associated with a form of the song in the second part of Playford's Catch that Catch Can, or, The Musical Companion of 1667, where four verses were printed, beginning "Though the Tyrant hath ravish'd my Dearest away"; unfortunately I don't know what form the text took, though it was evidently based on Price. The first part of the book is available online as facsimile images, at Catch that Catch Can: very interesting for those who are keen on 17th century rounds and catches, but I confess I'd rather have had part II.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 02:31 PM

Thank you Malcolm. I've been puzzled by Venus and Volum for a long time!

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: Stephen R.
Date: 28 Dec 03 - 10:09 PM

Malcolm, I just love the sort of thing I see developing in this thread. We need an article surveying the history of this song; you have done most of the real work already; why not write this up and publish it? The distinction between the "lost" and "stolen" types, the relations between broadsides and oral versions, this is what gives us a real grasp of the song in its various expressions. What with the recent disparagement of "item-centered" research, I had almost concluded that we were not going to see this sort of thing again for ages; but recently it seems to be rebounding nicely. And, hey, the Penguin Book updated for the 21st century is out now; we are already permanently in your debt, so please drive us deeper into debt with a song history! I muttered a few unrepeatable words on discovering that I had lost my note with the reference to the version about which I originally inquired, but if I hadn't lost it I would have missed all the lively interchange on this thread. Thanks to all!

Stephen R.

Subject: RE: version of 'Some tyrant has stolen'
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 09:19 PM

Malcom has just pointed me to this thread. We have just added "The American King" as referenced by Henryp at folkinfo. If any one is interested, it can be found here.

Jon

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:20 PM

This is the song for January 25 on Jon Boden's A Folk Song a Day project. I have to say that as an American traveling in Europe, I never had any luck stealing anyone's True Love....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: RTim
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM

There is one version were the title is - "Some Rifle Has Stolen My True Love"!!
That coupled with - "An American Has Stolen My True Love"
-for me conjures up visions of John Wayne on his horse stealing away my love!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: doc.tom
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 04:29 AM

Also seen title as The Rifles have stolen etc., i.e. the regiment - makes more sense!

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 05:47 AM

It was also recorded by the Etchingham Steam Band as "Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away." Joe Offer

Kate Rusby acknowledged Keith Kendrick as her source. He in turn acknowledged Eddie Upton. Henryp

And I am sure [Vic Gammon] does sing a 'tyrant' song too. Mary Humphreys

Eddie Upton was the dance caller for the Etchingham Steam Band, and Vic Gammon was a participant too. Perhaps the song's re-emergence can be attributed to Ashley Hutchings and Shirley Collins of the Etchingham Steam Band.

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: doc.tom
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:33 AM

Ooops! Brick!! Should have read the whole thread first. It never ceases to amaze me how often every other posting became superfluous after Malcolm Douglas had contributed!

Subject: Lyr Add: LOVE'S FIERCE DESIRE AND HOPES OF RECOVER
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 07:39 PM

From the broadside in The Bodleian Library Ballads collection, Douce Ballads 1(132a)—Douce Ballads 1(114b) is very similar. I have attempted to preserve the quaint spelling and punctuation:


Love's Fierce desire, and hopes of Recovery.
Or; A true and brief Discription of two resolved Lovers, whose excellent
wits, sutable minds, and faithful hearts one to another, shall heedfully
be spoken of in this following the new made paper of Verses.
To an Excellent new Tune: Or, Fair Angel of England.

Now the Tyrant hath stolen my dearest away,
And I am confined with Mopsa to stay,
Yet let Celia remember how faithful I'le be,
Neither distance nor absence shall terrifie me.

In volums of sighs I'le send to my Dear,
And make my own heart correspond to my sphere;
Till the soul of my life may be pleased to see,
How delightful her safest return is to me.

It cheers my sad heart to remember her love;
Though malice hath caused this sudden remove;
And my mind is resolved what ever ensue,
Whether Sunshine or Thunder to be constant and true.

If my Bark sayl but safely, through this rugged Sea,
Though with contrary winds much tossed it be;
In the Haven of rest, and long look't for content,
Wee'l chant forth melodious songs of merriment.

Till then I'le retreat to the forrest and mourn,
Acteon shall eccho my hound and my horn:
No Reynard shall escape me that runs on the way,
But patience perforce I will make him to stay.

My heart hath enquired of every stone,
What convoy the Heavens hath bequeath'd to my moan;
But for ought I can find holy Angels are agreed,
To rival my hopes and to slaken her speed.

Therefore I'le sit down and bewail my sad fate,
Like the Turtle I'le mourn for the loss of my mate;
All the worlds greatest glories vexation to me,
Till my Celia and I in our loves may be free.

* * * * * * * * * *
Celia her sweet Reply to her faithful Friend

Thy presence dear friend I have well understood,
And how in exile thou hast wandred the wood:
But I am resolved thy sorrows to free,
To make thee amends I'le soon come unto thee.

'Tis neither the Tyger, the Wolf, nor the Bear,
Nor shall Nylus Crocodile put me in fear:
Ile swim through the Ocean upon my bare brest,
To find out my Darling whom I do love best.

And when I have found him with double delight,
I'le comfort him kindly, by day and by night;
And Ile be more faithful then the Turtle Dove,
Which never at all did prove false to her love.

The fierce Basilisko that kills with the eye,
Shall not have the power once thee to come nigh:
Ile clip thee and hug thee so close in my arms,
And I'le venture my life for to save thee from harms.

My lap for thy head love a pillow shall be,
And whilst thou dost sleep I'le be careful of thee.
I'le wake, and I'le watch, and I'le kiss thee for joy,
And no venomous creature shall my Love annoy.

The Satyrs shall pipe, and the Syrens shall sing,
The Wood-nymphs with musick shall make the Groves ring:
The Horn it shall sound, and the Hounds make a noise
To fill my loves heart with ten thousand rare joys.

So now I am coming to hasten the deed,
Pray heaven and good Angels to be my good speed.
If fortune me favour, and Seas quiet prove,
I soon will arrive at the Port which I love.

Now Celia is gone to find out her dear,
Her heart that was sad to comfort and cheer:
No doubt but each other they will lovingly greet,
When as they together do lovingly meet.

FINIS
* * * * * * * * * *
London, Printed for T. Vere
The sign of the Cock in
St. Johns-street,

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: Hesk
Date: 25 Sep 20 - 04:32 AM

In Keith Kendrick's version, and several others, the first line of the third verse is "There's Venus and Volum they are both joined as one". Volum does not seem to exist if googled etc. Could this be a corruption of Vulcan, who was, in legend, one of Venus's lovers? I have no proof, of course, but shall probably substitute Vulcan for Volum when singing this song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: Reinhard
Date: 25 Sep 20 - 05:55 AM

See Malcolm Douglas' above post from 25 Dec 03:

Cecil Sharp also found examples of the song in much the same form. Volum was glossed as "probably = Vulcan", but it appears that Venus and Volum was actually a mis-hearing of Phoenix and female, as the following broadside example shows: …

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Sep 20 - 12:27 PM

Some titles;
Love's Fierce Desire, etc - Roxburgh Collection (Ballad Society, Vol. vi., pp. 67 and 69), circa 1656; begins;
Now the Tyrant hath stolen my dearest away
Some tyrant has stolen my true love away - from Sussex
A merry king has stolen my true love away - from Sussex
The Americans have stolen my true love away - from Sussex
Some rival has stolen my true love away - Broadwood, L, 1908, English Traditional Songs and Carols, Sung by Mr. Lough, Dunsford, 1898.
I can't find a Dunsford in Sussex, but there is a Dunsfold in Surrey, close to the West Sussex border.
The Rifles have stolen my true love away

Narthen included The Rifles in 2018 on their No Masters album Narthen. The booklet states; This song was collected from the King Family of Castle Eaton in Wiltshire by Alfred Williams [VWML AW/6/129]. It was first published in 1915 as part of a serialisation, and then in his collection Folk Songs of the Upper Thames [ Wiltshire 949 ] , published in 1923. This version has been set by John Tams to a variant of the tune for Farewell to Tarwathie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Some Rival Has Stolen My True Love Away
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:01 PM

The Etchingham Steam Band (Shirley Collins, Ashley Hutchings, Ian Holder and Vic Gammon) sang Some Tyrant Has Stolen My True Love Away live on 23 December 1974 at the “Nova Scotia” in Bristol. This recording was included in 1995 on their eponymous Fledg'ling CD, The Etchingham Steam Band.

This version is based on Henry Hills' My True Love I've Lost, as collected with other songs by W. Percy Merrick in November 1899 and printed in Journal of the Folk Song Society, I (3) 1901, 96 [VWML RoudFS/S155496] . The E.S.B.'s first verse is introduced from elsewhere and the second is altered.

Steeleye Span (then with Martin Carthy and John Kirkpatrick) sang this song as Some Rival. This is a set from Lucy Broadwood's Traditional English Songs and Carols (1908, pp. 108-11), which was noted from farm labourer Mr Lough at Dunsfold, Surrey, in 1898 [VWML GB/6a/2].

George Butterworth collected The American King from Mrs Cranstone (c. 50), of Wood Dale, Billingshurst, in July 1907 [VWML GB/4/19] . This was printed in 1977 in Michael Downey's book of “hitherto unpublished folk songs collected by George Butterworth”, The Ploughboy's Glory.

From Mainly Norfolk.