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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 20 Jan 16 - 04:23 PM Love the fable of the oats, Kendall. Can I steal it and convert it to sterling? All the best Greg |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 16 - 12:07 AM Stim - we can only admire your American "Can do" positive work ethic. But whilst you are cheerfully stating the obvious regarding the greater scheme of things, you don't seem to be 'getting' the equally obvious point that if paid work in this specific sector in the UK is on the verge of becoming extinct, due to savage Government cuts in funding, no one can actually do it anymore. Respect due to Dave. He does understand and acknowledge this apparent economic reality difference between the USA and UK. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 19 Jan 16 - 11:08 PM Dave isn't debating, he's working as a musician and he's giving marketing and promotional advice to others who want to work. You're both right, of course. He says he can do do it, and he does it. You say you can't, and you don't... |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: kendall Date: 19 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM Guest from Sanity, if you want to hear me sing that song, it an be arraigned. I recorded it some years ago before I lost my singing voice. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 16 - 03:24 AM Dave Ruch: "There's a whole world of good paying work out there that seems, in many ways, ideally suited to the folk musician. School gigs, libraries, cultural arts centers, and the like - - places where you can educate a bit while you entertain, and where the venues secure funding to make the programs happen because of the benefit to the community." Stim: "It isn't about finding grant funded arts employment." Don't know about the internal dialogue within your head, but out here in a specific debate between me and Dave, yes it is !!!. Come on stim - less time chuckling and more time concentrating if you don't mind.. In fairness, yesterday I asked a significant other who has a life time at managerial admin level in this sector. The reply, "Well yes we sometimes still get in outside freelancers [entertainers in education] if we can. But mostly these days we are looking for anyone who will do it as a volunteer for free" |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 19 Jan 16 - 01:47 AM Guest--Not a derisive laugh at you, more of an approving chuckle for Dave. I've been listening to musicians over here say exactly what you are saying, and they've been saying it for years. Then I see guys like Dave, (and a lot of other people like him) who still have figured out how to make a career playing music. You've gotta love people like that. When you say, "The work is simply no longer there", I am sure that you're right (though I kind of doubt there was ever a lot of work). Dave's played in bar bands, until he suffered an injury and couldn't physically do the work. He found something that he could do, as a performer, and looked for places that would pay him to do it. It isn't about finding grant funded arts employment. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:23 PM stim - you can laugh as much as you like from across the Atlantic. Local Govt. / Education Authority grant funded arts employment provision has dwindled down to near zero over here. The work is simply no longer there for even the most ruthless business minded musicians to compete and scavenge over. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:07 PM I haven't done gigs for some years - I am a bit old now. But I used to do quite a lot at one time; and I too have had emotional responses to Band Played Waltzing Matilda. I always thought it had been a good performance if it was greeted at the end by complete silence. If interested, it is on my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Stim Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM I have to say that I think Dave's site is wonderful, inspirational even--I have to laugh at our UK friend, who basically says that the way Dave's been supporting a family for the last 24 years isn't viable;-) He says a lot about the business aspect--and that's the part that trips a lot of people up. A lot of performers, especially folkies, look down on the business part of this, and that is what keeps you going. Notwithstanding what everyone is saying about excellence and uniqueness--there are more "same-old,same-old" performers out there who are good with booking and bookkeeping than "unique talents" who aren't. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jan 16 - 10:02 PM Kendall: "Right you are. if you don't feel the music, neither will your audience. I've seen grown men weep when I sing :The band played waltzing Matilda." No wise cracks, please." I would be honored to hear you do it!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: kendall Date: 16 Jan 16 - 09:18 PM Right you are. if you don't feel the music, neither will your audience. I've seen grown men weep when I sing :The band played waltzing Matilda." No wise cracks, please. One of the best descriptions of someone who is not ready for prime time came from My old friend, Sandy Paton. He called them, "Teen age philosophers wailing out their diary entries". |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:37 PM Kendall: "First, you must be one of a kind. If all you do is imitations of famous people who made it, better get a day job." Amen to that!!!...That includes your run of the mill protest/political 'statements' and any and everything that puts you into some worn out fad of yesteryear. You can say more as a 'social commentator' than a quasi-'political activist'....but FIRST you HAVE TO DO YOUR MUSICAL HOMEWORK!!...and play to and from the heart...not just another 'fill your head' trip!!..then practice, practice, practice!! Playing 'benefits' is great for exposure, but not for money...so use them wisely, and don't get hung up is playing them all the time. You can reach a greater audience, using one to promote the other, while still doing beneficial work for others...BUT, DON'T get hung up in playing 'political events'....when you do, even though you may 'self impress yourself' that certain people may like you, you also lose half your audience, by those who may disagree with your politics, no matter what the song sounds like, or how much time you put into it. Remember, if you're a musician get an instrument...if you're a wannabe activist, get a soapbox!! People will listen IF your music is not just 'good' but great...besides, if you're out to make political statements, but play shitty, then nobody is interested in either....and it reflects on the shallow benefits, of which you think you're trying to promote! You might not get rich, but that's my two cents in your pocket!! GfS |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,DTM Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM How do you make money in folk music? "Ah, but you may as well try & catch the wind" - Donovan (1965) |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Guest can't remember password Date: 16 Jan 16 - 08:19 AM The late Diz Disley used to say "You'll never be poor if you remember these three little words ... "Stick 'em up" |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:01 AM How do you make money in folk music? Get a job at McDonald's... |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: kendall Date: 15 Jan 16 - 05:35 PM First, you must be one of a kind. If all you do is imitations of famous people who made it, better get a day job. When I lost my singing voice, that was that for the folk music. I still do performances as a Maine humorist, but, no more Thousand dollar gigs. Performers such as Gordon Bok, JedMarum, Seamus Kennedy do stuff that not everyone can do. So, if they want Jed Marum, they must be willing to pay Jed Marum. He is the only one qualified. I used to tell a story to people who wanted me to drive 200 miles for $50.00. The fable of the oats. "If you want top quality, fresh oats, you must pay top dollar. However, if you can settle for those that have already gone through the horse, they are much cheaper." |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Dave Ruch Date: 15 Jan 16 - 08:11 AM Thanks GUEST and FreddyHeadey. I can't comment on the UK scene other than my brief tour there in 2009 playing mainly in folk clubs (though the best paying gig, by far, was...at a museum). And apologies if I made the USA sound like the land of milk and honey; it's far from that. In fact, I know many talented performers here who would echo GUEST's comments to the letter. I do think some of it comes down to the amount of "hustle" we put in though. For me, I haven't had much of a choice, as I broke off from a steady job twenty-some years ago to pursue music on a local/regional level and have been the sole breadwinner for my family of four since that time. I've simply HAD to find a way to make it work for me. I'm here to say - it can be done. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: FreddyHeadey Date: 15 Jan 16 - 01:21 AM anonymous 'GUEST' you might be right but maybe the "elite minority of 'approved' performers" are following Dave's blog... checklist of daily jobs. Worth a read. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 09:02 PM Dave - sorry to be a pessimist, but in the UK these funded opportunities are mostly long gone, and the pitiful few left tend to be monopolised by an elite minority of 'approved' performers. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Dave Ruch Date: 14 Jan 16 - 08:20 PM There's a whole world of good paying work out there that seems, in many ways, ideally suited to the folk musician. School gigs, libraries, cultural arts centers, and the like - - places where you can educate a bit while you entertain, and where the venues secure funding to make the programs happen because of the benefit to the community. I've been doing this full time, very comfortably, for the last twenty years, and have started a blog to help others do the same. Articles can be found here: Educate and Entertain: A Great Living in the Arts Would love the feedback and contributions of the Mudcat community. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 14 Jan 16 - 06:03 PM 'how do you make money in folk music'? Start a band called Bellowhead! Simples! |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 14 Jan 16 - 03:40 AM Guestmg - you obviously don't know any teachers in GB. Despite gaining 10% of their time table to prepare and mark, the job takes over normal life. ' You must mark in three different colours' - the heads been on a course - so it takes twice as long. Then the head goes on another course! Holidays are spent getting the work ready for the next term because Government have changed what you have to teach yet again. One third of young teachers leave within 3 years. The days of being a modestly paid government employee but one where you could develop other interests are long gone. ( except the bit about the modest pay). FloraG. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,mg Date: 13 Jan 16 - 04:52 PM I think some people do pretty well with house concerts. I think a teacher's schedule would lend itself best to folk music money..summers off, can write off some travels and expenses, good weather.... |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,John Fitzsimmons Date: 13 Jan 16 - 08:41 AM Quite funny. I found this post today after a long absence from Mudcat. 12 years later, and I have a pretty good "thing" going (and one more kid for that magic seven). I "don't" make a living as a folksinger, but I do make a pretty good side living playing ten or so gigs a month--and get paid enough to at least make a dent in the college tuitions I pay. If anything, the pub scene is worse (paywise) than ever. Most pubs around here (Concord MA) try to get musicians to play for food vouchers. The better money is in the harvest festivals, private parties, school gigs. The best advice on the thread--among a lot of deeply appreciated thoughtfulness) is to consider yourself as an entertainer and to learn the songs that truly entertain the crowd at hand--and there are plenty of pretty amazing songs that "entertain" (whatever entertain really means, so I do not feel like I have horribly short-changed my artistic vision for my life. If any of you are in the Boston area, stop by The Colonial Inn in Concord and join me for a set. And even split the tip jar with me--which most weeks is more than the pay:) |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,DTM Date: 12 Jan 14 - 04:16 PM My theory is the minute you're paid to perform you cease to be a 'folk singer'. You have become an artist/musician/professional/etc. Hold on! Before the war starts, that's just my pawky definition and it applies to me alone :-) |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: The Sandman Date: 11 Jan 14 - 05:36 PM Take as your role model the Person who bought up other people recordings and suppressed them, problem is you cant take your money with you to the grave, to whom it may concern hand back those recordings now. Rosemary Hardman for instance is on hard times[as i undertstand ]and could do with some dosh from her recordings. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST Date: 11 Jan 14 - 04:54 PM 15 Jan 04 - 05:35 PM Jon Spiers, the day before he turned pro... |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Rev Bayes Date: 11 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM Main thing is to not sing or play it. Yon's a mug's game. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:49 AM I `ad that John Spiers in my cab the other Day. `parently, `ed just done a booking and the collection on the door didn`t cover `is fee. `e looked just like `ed got an `ole in `is bellows. `e said, "`ere Jim. You and your band `ave done all the clubs over the years. `ow does one make money in folk music?" I said, "Well Squeezy, my bruvver `as no problem." `e said, "Go on then!" I said , "`es got this little shop, see, flogging instruments, anything that makes a racket. Bearing in mind what is marketted as "Folk Music" nowadays `e stuck up a notice saying "Folk Instuments". The kids are all over `im like a rash. Lovely little earner!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: The Sandman Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:04 AM song writing |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Pete Jennings Date: 09 Jan 14 - 05:44 AM There's a similar saying in motor racing, Mark: Q. How do you make a small fortune in Formula 1? A. Start with a large one! |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 09 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM Mark, I didn't realise where I'd picked that up - I share it around all the time. I only know a few folkies who make their living from their music. Some manage by also producing their own & other folks' music, teaching music & doing related stuff. Most have day jobs in different fields. sandra |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Mark Ross Date: 08 Jan 14 - 08:38 PM As Utah Phillips used to say; "You want to make a million dollars playing folk music? Start with two million." Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: JedMarum Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:43 PM LOL - Jeremiah, I have to admit that I do exactly that, now and then! |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Jeremiah McCaw Date: 19 Jan 04 - 11:59 AM Easy. While on your way to a gig in a place you would never be if you were not a folksinger, stop and buy what will turn out to be a winning lottery ticket! You're welcome. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: JedMarum Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:46 AM Is it too late to add a serious answer? I joked at the start of this thread, when I said, "I wish I knew ... " (How to make money in folk music) but I have made a living at folk music for the last 4 years, modest as it has been, and it's getting better. I guess I've learned a few things, at least things that have worked for me. There are a few good practical suggestions above, some that maybe I should have looked at - but I want to make my income from performance and from CD sales, so that is what I've stuck to. I work festivals, clubs and pubs. I sell 2/3 of my CDs from the stage, and CDs are an important portion of my income. I do spend a lot of time digging, working at bookings, planning tours - and that could become a problem because the business of music can suck the joy out of it - but I'm quite motivated to make it work, so I accept that that is just part of the job. I ignore the push to become more "marketable" because that would also suck the joy out of it for me - so I develop the music that I love, and hope enough of the "market place" will see the same beauty I do. In truth, rather then become more mainstream, I've become more parochial! But I love it, and I'm still working - so I go with it. Small victories mean a lot to me. Every year I add new festivals, new concert venues - each one makes my life just a breath easier. I just keep plugging away at it. I work like heck to keep the calendar full, and always try to add new venues to the mix. I used to travel in hopes finding places to play ... now I travel when I have places to play and there's enough money to make it worthwhile. I take chances, but calculated chances. I guess I try to build on the successes I've had, learn lessons from the places that didn;t work for me. Like that country pop songs says, "some girls don't like boys like me - ah, some girls do!" I stick to the ones that do. I've read some of your poetry and listened to a bit of the sound tracks, John - you can make this work. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,sory Dieter again. Date: 16 Jan 04 - 10:21 PM I am just back from a concert in Schwanstetten, here in Germany, by Pat Cooksey, he was great and it was full so that many of my freinds could not get get get in, 700 people here there, so I think Pat did O/K. We listend outside, and later Pat sang for us in our local pub for 1 Jameson, I do not think Pat cares for money too much, but he Knows how to have fun, and is as modest with his talents as I have ever seen. We played darts together two weeks ago with some of U.2. Great. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Dieter Boss. Date: 16 Jan 04 - 10:02 PM |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM That crap about not doing free shows is just that!! One other point: Give quantity discouts ! I wanted to stay near home to take care of my wife Carol's medical conditions better. The owner of the boat had a limited budget but MANY STEADY gigs to offer. I lowered my fee that I got if I was doing a college concert etc. That led to a ten year gig----five months a year (every other day) on a stemboat on the Mississippi River. Was home every night with NO MOTEL BILLS. (Did drive 160 miles over and back each day I had the job.) Got our son through college with nobody oweing anything. On the off day I'd do other gigs in the midwest. Only had to take jobs I wanted to do. Took many for nothing. Quoted high for things I halway would've rather not done---and often did those jobs as well.----The other seven months a year I hooked up with an agency that set me up doing shows in schools in the eight counties around Chicago. Played a coffeehouse in Chicago that hardly ever paid anything for 37 years. It was my second home ans spiritual base. I'd've done that for nothing if they hadn't offered to pay me to do it. (But I never told them that.) ;-) There were several gigs where that was true. I just loved the people. Art Thieme Art |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:27 PM Be true to your dream Have what they want to purchase. Do it well. Be in the right place at the right time. Be lucky. (the main one.) If they offer you $50.00 for the gig, just tell them "Obviously you need the money more than I do."----Then offer to do a benefit for them gratis. If the venue is successful, you have a paying gig there forever. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Martin from Barton Beds Date: 16 Jan 04 - 04:33 PM The answer is very easy.All you have to do is become The Prime Minister. You can make all the money you like out of Folk Music then. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 16 Jan 04 - 03:05 PM "part of the equation is that buiness sells not only what folks want, but what it is in the interest of buisiness to sell. So, you see the censorship of MTV" You can't have your cake and eat it too Larry. On one hand you are complaining about not having paying gigs and then you complain about a commercial venture like MTV making money. MTV, the last time I looked, was not public-access programming. They are a cable operation and their rules are different than even broadcast televsion. They aren't "censoring" but in reality they are "programming" as they see fit. While I don't agree with their choices either, I would not make presumptions to tell them what they should and should not play. Folk music is not the path to big bucks, unless you get very lucky. The great thing is, the best artists are not motivated by money. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: George Papavgeris Date: 16 Jan 04 - 02:17 PM "...not because it's lucrative, but because you can't help it". InOBU and Squeezy J have the best (bravest too) approach. But that basically invalidates the original question. Making money, nice though it is, is secondary. Playing folk music comes first. Too late for me at 50, I've "sold out" to the day job long ago. But I admire and envy you John. Go for it, man; and carry our dreams with you too. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: InOBU Date: 16 Jan 04 - 12:06 PM I don't agree that supply and demand figures into it. The audiences are there, as those of us who busk in order to supliment what our bands aren't paid when we do gigs... (no kidding), but part of the equation is that buiness sells not only what folks want, but what it is in the interest of buisiness to sell. So, you see the censorship of MTV... the complete absence of protest music when the world needs it the most. Keep hammering away, not because it is lucritive, but because you can't help it. Ouch Larry |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Dave. Date: 16 Jan 04 - 11:06 AM My point was that English Folk Music remains stuck in the same old crumbling mould, with an ever decreasing number of old diehards trying to sustain it, Paul Simon plays to slightly bigger audiences these days. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,JOHN OF ELSIES`S BAND Date: 16 Jan 04 - 04:47 AM Breezy, Its a pleasure to know you got your inspiration from our club in the "Railway Tavern" at Catford and it stands you in good stead today. I trust all goes well with your present enterprise. GUEST Dave, If Paul Simon isn`t "there" then the Pope of Gozo i Jewish!! |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: GUEST,Dave. Date: 15 Jan 04 - 09:57 PM The Herga is still there at it's original venue, Paul Simon is not. John Spiers, well said, good luck to you. Folk music does have a considerable following, but not in England, where the majority of sessions I have attended seem to be Irish in origin. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: breezy Date: 15 Jan 04 - 08:08 PM its a two way deal between organisers and performers as well. Performers always have the option of initiating and organising whereas organisers who dont perform cannot. Its late. Saw Paul Simon at Catford I was in the front row, boy did he take a lot of time tuning his martin, then in cleethorpes f c when on teaching practice. Apparently Herga paid him £12 too. The Herga is still there at its orignal venue, but the room was painted last month when Mr Patel took over. I gained my inspiration to run a club by what I saw at catford railway Tavern. 40 years on and I'm doing it.Anyone got Paul Simon's e-mail, well I've already booked Martin Carthy. |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: clansfolk Date: 15 Jan 04 - 08:02 PM Supply and Demand If people want something they will pay good money for it - at the moment there is not a real demand for folk music in anything like the quantity it is being offered - and I doubt if (certainly here in the UK) there has ever been enough demand! It has been a well paid hobby for most performers most of the rest have had to change there style to become more commercial or been in the small percentage that did what they did and were in the right place at the right time to "Get That Break". To be fair I made quite a good living from music in the mid 60's and 70's but again I had to "give the Clubs what they wanted" and luckily I enjoyed most of the music I played - but not the Bingo, smoky clubs, and the travelling! Most self employed people have a hard time of it whether they have a little corner shop or a market stall why should musicians be any different :-( as me Dad used to say "Why don't you get a real Job" ;-) |
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Subject: RE: How do you make money in folk music? From: greg stephens Date: 15 Jan 04 - 06:55 PM Well I am extremely poor, but I have a lot of friends. The only non-musical job I ever did was for three weeks in about 19711. it was crap. Other that I just strum, squeeze and whack away and get paid a pittance. Great stuff, nobody made any promises to me. My decision.Yippee, why not? Good luck, squeezy/John spiers. However bad it gets, it's better than a real job. |
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