origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 14 Nov 21 - 02:56 PM

I see my parents in this song near the end of my fathers life. As an orphan he was sent to the country outside Syracuse, NY to the farming families who would take in a child of immigrants. If it is true that people are the sum of their experiences my father was wealth of memories. But by the time he was 75 they were beginning to elude him. My mom was there with gentle reminders of how things happened and where they were when Dad couldn't.

That is how I see Margaret and The Dutchman as well as my parents, Dorrie And Hans Meixner. These people lived their the lives in places that they no longer see but they remember them where they are living now.

And I suppose we all come to the ends of our lives with unrealized dreams. Margaret's were children, my Dad's were to know more about his family in Austria.

I don't think this song is any more that. A simple, eloquent moment in a life.

Don

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Aug 19 - 07:01 PM

I always thought it was dementia, personally. But shellshock or a traumatic brain injury would also fit.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 06:14 AM

Michael Peter Smith does "The Dutchman" Gainesville FL May 2010 + back-story

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Katie Coyne
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:45 PM

I love the song but I have always believed it to be about a married couple, Margaret...and the Dutchman. He has some sort of ptsd, I've assumed about WW2. Isn't it funny how we all see this differently. I would bet my life it's a love song though, romatically speaking as opposed to a brother and sister relationship.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 28 Jul 16 - 02:02 PM

Mysha, I was perhaps over-analysing it all a bit. There's a good old Dutch name for people who do that: 'Kommaneuker'

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Mysha
Date: 27 Jul 16 - 06:21 PM

Hi,

Mrrzy: If it works for you, hear it that way. It wasn't written with that in mind, apparently, but meaning is in the ear of the beholder.

Peter: The "Zay" was intended as similar to "Day". But, I only mentioned it to not stop pronouncing halfway through the name. Joe is right in that Michael Smith pronounces it more like USAnians pronounce the last letter of the alphabet.

For me it's about that enduring love between Margaret and the Dutchman, that they share in good times and bad times.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 11:40 AM

'but for me unbearable, evocation of the chaos of dementia, with that one enduring love lighting the way through the dark corridors. '

Just about exactly the way I feel about it.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:48 AM

"…remembers that for me" — one of the exercises done with dementia patients uses memory aids, for example old typewriters, crockery, newspapers, radios; and music from the era when they were young.

It is true that memory loss first attacks the short-term memory ("Yesterday? Didn't we go to that film? Oh, was that a year ago?"), while people can remember their childhood. But as the brain cells are walled away and the networks damaged, people can only remember with help. "What are my children's names? Oh, thank you… now I remember."

The song is a beautiful, but for me unbearable, evocation of the chaos of dementia, with that one enduring love lighting the way through the dark corridors.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

I never thought about this (love this forum) but I do get the impression that when he was a young man and they first got married he was of normal mental ability, but he's not been right for a long, long time, and shellshock fits really well for that. She married a dashing young soldier, and stayed faithful to the shell of a man who came home from the war.
So sad.

I don't know the song all that well but to be honest the few times I heard it I 'read' it as a description of someone loosing grips with the world due to Alzheimer's disease.

Shellshock is a very unlikely suspect, even if you take it in its modern understanding as PTSD. At least in a Dutch context I wouldn't consider the disorder as the 'go to' explanation, even for the generation that lived through WWII. The Netherlands didn't exactly send off a lot of soldiers into situations that would make shellshock, or whatever you want to call it, a common disorder.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 06:34 PM

In the song, "Zuider Zee" is rhymed with "me", which suggests that the author had in mind the usual Anglicized pronunciation.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 02:28 PM

I never thought about this (love this forum) but I do get the impression that when he was a young man and they first got married he was of normal mental ability, but he's not been right for a long, long time, and shellshock fits really well for that. She married a dashing young soldier, and stayed faithful to the shell of a man who came home from the war.
So sad.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 12:33 PM

'I think I'd go for "Zighder Zay"'

I agree there's probably no real solution for an English speaker to tackle the 'ui' sound. for 'Zee' I'd suggest to aim more for an 'a' sound for a more general Dutch feel (while still stopping well short of aiming for ABN), rather than tack on the 'y' although, as you suggest, that would turn up, for example, in a heavy Amsterdam accent.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Mysha
Date: 23 Jul 16 - 04:37 AM

Hi,

Yeah, I saw a performance of Michael Smith once, where he told the audience about that Makem and Clancy story, and about how it had nothing to do with him. But it worked for them, I guess.

I think I'd go for "Zighder Zay", BTW. I don't think there's an English equivalent for the actual "ui" sound, but "ow" sounds too heavy for me. Thus, while "igh" isn't the right sound either, it seems like a better approximation. Of course, that may depend on the accent you're being taught.


Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:19 AM

"Zowder Zay "

Hmm, not quite the Dutch 'ui' is one of those sounds that really doesn't transfer into anything in the English language (and same for [i]'ij', 'ei'[/i] and '[i]eu[/i]'). Which you should appreciate if you can get IJmuiden right.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Jul 16 - 06:13 AM

I have heard people sing "Zyder Zee " when it should be "Zowder Zay " ; I must confess that I was taught the former in infant school geography lessons (circa 1952 !) , until I had Dutch lessons a few years ago ,as a result of which I can now pronounce "IjMuiden" quite well also !

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 16 - 09:32 PM

Makem and Clancy say that the old Dutchman is still in shell shock. WWII gave him more than he can handle, and Margeret remembers how he was before the war. The first lines about not keeping his dreams in to me means in his sleep he has nightmares about what has happened, and Margeret is the only one who knows his terror. After the war he was so messed up that he wouldn't be able to help her raise children but she stuck by his side everyday. Her love for him conquers all, and he remembers that he loves her, and that when he calls her name when he thinks he's alone it seems like it's what he did during the war.

My interpretation anyway...

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: My guru always said
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 10:37 AM

Michael Smith link

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Jim Moran
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 10:18 AM

While i subscribe fully to the thought that the artist is not the last word in the meaning of any creative work - for what it's worth, here is Smith himself commenting on his own blog in April of 2010 -

http://michaelpetersmith.com/mscomment.shtml

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:04 PM

It's pretty clear that the story doesn't take place any more recently than the first decade or so of the twentieth century. The Zuiderzee was enclosed and drained beginning in the 1920's, and was renamed Ijselmere. The windmills and the candle point to a time prior to electrification, and the clogs and snow (Amsterdam doesn't freeze over any more) indicate a historical setting. The tugboats put us no earlier than the mid-nineteenth century

Guest makes a number of incorrect assumptions there, The Zuiderzee was closed in 1932 and wasn't drained, separate parts were, but on a later dates. After the Afsluitdijk was closed the Zuiderzee became IJsselmeer.
Windmills are still there but like the candle the yseem only in the song to provide a couleur locale. Clogs are for tourists but Amsterdam froze over as recent as last winter. Ice and snow may not come to the Netherlands each year, severe winters do still happen periodically.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:23 AM

Clancy Brothers, the dutch man

The Dutch Man

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:21 AM

Listening to the Clancy bros doing this song today on CD and it is as beautiful now as it was in the late 60's or so when I first heard it.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

It's pretty clear that the story doesn't take place any more recently than the first decade or so of the twentieth century. The Zuiderzee was enclosed and drained beginning in the 1920's, and was renamed Ijselmere. The windmills and the candle point to a time prior to electrification, and the clogs and snow (Amsterdam doesn't freeze over any more) indicate a historical setting. The tugboats put us no earlier than the mid-nineteenth century.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 03:59 PM

There is a prevalent notion that a songwriter actually "knows" what they're writing about while they're creating a song. This is sometimes not the case and a song grows into its own meaning.

I can see from the songwriter's point of view that pinning down a meaning in a particular song might not be to the songwriter's best interest. Better to have people talking about the meaning of the song as they are doing here.

I'm in favor of evasive answers on the part of songwriters because then they don't unduly influence or place a roadblock to different interpretations by performers.

I'm reminded of Tennessee Williams insisting to Elia Kazan that his plays were "comedies".
Or of Williams' statement about Brando, "He plays the role as I would have liked to have written it".

I remember Nina Simone singing "To Dream the Impossible Dream" the night of MLK's execution. She gave a new life to a song that reputedly meant something different in Man of La Mancha.

I think that you need to let the songwriter alone and interpret it the way you see it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:56 AM

So we are all agreed then!
Morning all.
Kid's got her music to go to so I'm Harry The Toff!

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meaning
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:49 AM

Jim Lad - I agree that the "shell shock" aspect is unnecssary and unsupported by the text of the song itself. What we need to know is that he still wears wooden shoes, and thinks he's still in Rotterdam. How he got that way is probably unknowable, from within the text anyway.

Joe - that's pretty much what I meant by "unless you want to count "life" as the greatest backstory of all." - But I think you're reading more into "making stuff up" than is necessarily there. All it means is "the details of the piece are not tied to specific people, events, or facts." And I don't really think there's significant contact with an afflicted person necessary - the level of detail about The Dutchman's delusion isn't all that demanding. Smith makes us know what's going on with him with just a few brushstrokes; he's letting his dreams leak out, after all, and what more do we need to know? It's Margaret who's the Mona Lisa figure in the song, for my money.

Stpehen L Rich - I agree, the lyric "works" for any number of interpretations, including that Margaret is wife/daughter/sister. That's part of its brilliance and power.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 12:04 AM

I think that Amos may be onto something here. It had never occured to me think about The Dutchman as Margaret's father. After going over the song a couple of times the theory works well. The song suddenly makes a whole new kind of sense.

Stephen Lee Rich

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meaning
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM

I'd have thought he's just musing on the transitory nature of life, and hanging it the fact there was a Tutankhamen exhibition on when he was writing it, maybe, the same as there is in London right now.

Here are the lyrics for Dead Egyptian Blues, on a site with other Michael Smith songs.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meaning
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:52 PM

I SWEAR I heard the story surrounding this song before - I think it was an interview on WUMB. I can't remember enough to pass it on, and it would just be my opinion of what he said anyway. WUMB probably has it archived, but you have to be a member to get to it.

Thing is, it probably wasn't about real people, but something inspired it, and I find interesting to wonder what made Michael Smith want to write the song and what put the image of the couple in his head.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:32 PM

Hi, Buck -
I don't know that people "just make stuff up." It could be pure fiction, but even pure fiction is based in authentic human experience. To write a song like this, I'd say Michael Smith must have had significant contact with a person with dementia.

Now, I have no guess as to what Smith was thinking when he wrote "Dead Egyptian Blues," but I'd sure like to know.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:07 PM

So.... "Knights in White Satin" anybody...?
Just kidding!

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:53 PM

It is certainly the mark of a good song when people think about it. So many songs are heard and forgotton. Sometimes the listener is never involved in the song at all.   When the song stays with you and causes one to think and use one's senses it has been quite successful.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:30 PM

Well, I've had a good look through this thread and I'm settling for this quote "Poetry is sometimes best left unexplained, because explanation limits imagination" from some genius, further up.
I'll be dropping the "Shell Shock" story from the intro. I picked that up from Max Ferguson's show years ago.
The song tells enough of a story, all by itself and is relevant to many, without the need for explanations.
Thank you all.
Jim

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:13 PM

Then we are agreed, BuckMulligan. (if that's your real name)
If there's more to it, I'd like to know. If not, that's fine too!
Cheers
Jim

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meaning
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:01 PM

Pardon me (Roy, is that... oops, wrong thread) for jumping in, but what exactly is so difficult about accepting that writers (especially writers as talented as Smith) just make stuff up? Do we assume there's really a Loretta in Prine's life? (Maybe there is, for all I know, but that's not the point). Writers make stuff up. It's what we do. Sometimes it bears a relationship to something in "real life" and sometimes it doesn't, but if someone asks the writer and he says "I made it up" I think we're duty-bound to accept that. Not every great poem/story/song has a "story behind it" unless you want to count "life" as the greatest backstory of all.

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:54 PM

Pretty well parallels the intro, I do.
I haven't had time to look through this thread yet. The bouzouki needs new strings and that's a whole day job when there's a young scallywag in tow.
Regards
Jim

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM

I come from an old Detroit family - part of the family goes back to the founding of Detroit by Cadillac in 1701. We moved to Wisconsin in 1958, after my dad was laid off from his auto-industry job, and my folks lived in Wisconsin for 21 years until they moved to Florida. They always kept their ties to Detroit, and we went back to Detroit every year for vacation.

My mom died of dementia in December, 2004, at the age of 82. When she got dementia, she went back in her mind to the Detroit of the 1940's and 1950's, and that's where she lived for the last years of her life - in a fantasy world of Detroit, with her parents still alive and real for her. The only way for me to talk with her, was for me to enter that fantasy, and I found out a lot about my own early life by entering that fantasy with her.

I don't think "The Dutchman" physically lived in the Netherlands any more. Maybe he lived in Florida, like my mom did - but in his mind, he was in the Netherlands, and Margaret was wise enough to enter that memory with him.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: origins: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:58 PM

Thanks Joe: I can actually buy into the explanation cited above. Good songwriters have been known to use innocent parties as the vehicle for their message.
I remember watching a whole family disintegrate before my eyes while I was performing this song in a club, one time. They had just lost a family member to Alzheimer's.
I also remember a Dutch couple doubling up in laughter at the stereotyping, while I sang it at another venue.
Point to note re stereotyping. There are probably some UK folk here who could tell you that wooden shoes were, for a while, part of the attire in post WWII Britain.

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (Michael Smith): meanings?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:30 PM

Hi, Jim - I moved you over to this thread, so we could build on the previous discussion. Some of the answers above are enlightening, but I can't say I'm satisfied, I'm hoping somebody will come and post what Michael Smith has said about this song. In "Jim's" post just above, we see that Smith said it has something to do with his sister's boyfriend...

I asked Micael Smith about this song many(18?) years ago and he said that his sister, Margaret, was dating a Dutchman at the time he wrote the song. The Dutchman did not have dementia and his sister wasn't looking after him, but he used them in the song. Maybe he was extrapolating.

...but I'm still not satisfied. There had to be more to the story. It certainly speaks to my experiences with my mother's dementia during the last few years of her life. Maybe Smith wanted to write a song that described his observations and experience of dementia, and he tied in the unrealated Dutchman to give the song an interesting context. Whatever the case, it worked very well.

...and then when we fully understand this song, maybe we can go on to "Vampire" and "Dead Egyptian Blues" and a number of other fascinating and puzzling songs Smith has written.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dutchman
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:24 PM

I did a quick search but couldn't find the story behind the song. I've been told that it's about a WWI vet in Chicago who was shell shocked but am not entirely convinced.

Subject: RE: Origins: The Dutchman
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:13 PM

Jim, if you search on 'Dutchman' you'll find a lot of information

Subject: Origins: The Dutchman
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:05 PM

Anyone care to offer some input as to the story behind Michael Smith's "The Dutchman"?
I'll be in and out, today so apologies in advance if you don't see any response from me.

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 11 Apr 06 - 10:56 AM

I asked Micael Smith about this song many(18?) years ago and he said that his sister, Margaret, was dating a Dutchman at the time he wrote the song. The Dutchman did not have dementia and his sister wasn't looking after him, but he used them in the song. Maybe he was extrapolating.
I'm familiar with the Spoon River Anthology and cannot find any reference to riverboat gamblers or Mary Perkins in the book.
I've heard, from a source with absolutely no authority, that the quote,"20 years in law enforcement and I've never been so scared" came from a newspaper artical and inspired the song Panther In Michegan. Anyone else heard this?

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:25 PM

There is a photo of Norman Mad Dog Siegel picking with Marty Peiffer and Victor Sanders out back of Somebody Else's Troubles folk bar (Chicago--'79?) in my Folk Photos collection at

http://rudegnu.com/art_thieme.html

Art

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: sharyn
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 11:34 AM

Michael Smith stated in an interview on the radio a couple of months ago that "Margaret" was his sister -- but he may have just meant he used his sister's name in the song. (I didn't hear the whole interview, but turned it on in progress).

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM

Actually I think that GUEST put it pretty well about how a writer will let a song go "as a gift to all the listeners, knowing it will change subtly for each one change subtly for each one."

Some people find that hard to accept, and think that a song can only mean precisely what a writer had in mind when they wrote it.

As often as not, myself, I only understand what I had in mind with a song I've written after I've sung it a good few times, and ideally heard someone else sing it.

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:25 AM

MadDawg, are you from Chicago? If so, a hearty hello from my husband and I, both from there too.

Welcome to Mudcat-- I hope you will join as a member here.

~Susan

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Norm MadDawg Siegel
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:24 PM

I have been singing this song since Steve Goodman introduced me to it in performance some 30 odd years ago, I think. I tend to agree with "Guest"'s comment on January, 2005. Why do we have to search for any other meaning other than that of the writer? Why not just enjoy the song for its sheer poetic beauty and Michael Smith's ability to tell a story in a beautiful way? Another song that is equally as beautiful in a similar way is John Prine's treatment of old age, "Hello In There" Both songs are from around the same era in Chicago singer/songwriter history. Both are simply stated and quite exquisite settings of old age. Accept them as the simply beautiful expressions that they are and nothing more!

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

This is certainly an example of a great song. The lyrics provide images that evoke the feelings of the listener. The melody and words fit together like a single unit. Enough of the story line is omitted so that the singer and listener can allow their imagination to complete the picture. It is nice to see threads like this find new life from time to time.

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:23 PM

Like Blackcatter back in January, I love it when a thread like this is revived, and a bit more gets added.

I've always taken it that the "unborn children" bit means that, one way and another, Margaret never had the children she'd have wanted to have, maybe because of having to take care of the Dutchman; and now he has, in a way, become her child.

But I'm in agreement with all the people who've felt that looking for a single unambiguous story, and thinking that that explains everything in a song like this, is a mistake. There's a sort of uncertainty principle that applies, you can't really pin down mneanings, because they are all true. The meaning exists in the minds of the listeners, and they've all had different lives feeding into what they hear.

Subject: RE: The Dutchman (M. Smith): meanings?
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Perhaps that is the mark of a truely great song, that each of us can see a little of ourselves or those we love in them.