BS: Canadian politicians stink, too

Subject: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 02:00 AM

I have been ranting and raving about Bush while ignoring a relative calm here at home. However, when it comes to Fascists, nobody beats B.C.'s one and only Premier Campbell. He is even slimier than that new Prime Minister, Paul Martin.

They are now finding out that millions of tax dollars have gone to Liberal friends in the form of contracts. That money was supposed to go to health and education. And yes, the election system is also corrupt. The RCMP raided the provincial legislature to obtain documents tying govt. apointees to drug trafficing and phony, party memberships. Another thing that nobody wants to know about is that as a wealthy Canadian, Mr. Martin has probably never paid taxes. Most of his holdings are "off-shore".

Anyway, cheer-up! The U.S.A. is not the only place where the government is corrupt.

My hope? Vancouver has a very good school board, city council and Mayor. One day the province and maybe even the nation will catch on.
Hey - our friends across the border might even get the drift.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM

Want to see hopw much Canadian politics stinks? Watch the news the next few days and see how they deal with the Gagliano affair.

One day they claim nobody knew there was any wrongdoing and can't figure out who might really be at fault. Next day, after the Auditor General's report comes out, they have fired 14 staff members and claim they've cleaned the whole mess up.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM

Elections are just the reverse of a police line up.
We know who the crooks are. We just pick out the ones
we want to rob us.

Bastards all.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: MarkS
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:41 PM

Well, if MY guy wins the election I can be happy because at least it is MY sob who is picking my pocket, not that sorry sob YOU supported.

Rah team!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: GUEST,Jean "Da Man" Chretien, former PM of Canada!
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:52 PM

Dat's a filt'y lie! I take a sho-WER ever-EE day and I don't stink! Welll...o-kay! Some Canadien politician do stink maybe, but I don't! I tell you one 'ting...dat guy Paul Martin 'e got a kind of funny smell about 'im sometime, so maybe you got a point dere. In fact I t'ink I smell a beeg rat in da parliament buil-DING, dat's what I t'ink, but I am not naming any names. No sir! Dat's because I am compassion-ATE and I love Canada too much to stir up dat kind of con-trover-SEE! You better believe dat! I t'ink you people oughta stop pointing da finger at dose you E-lect and try taking a look in da mirror sometime! Den you gonna see somet'ing you maybe didn't expect, mon ami...

- Jean, da little guy from Shawinigan, and da best damn leader you are ever gonna have in dis con-TREE!

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:30 AM

Democracy requires participation if it is to be successful. If you don't vote, and you don't know what's going on you wind up with stinkers in high office.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: GUEST,Uh-huh...
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:41 AM

Yes, but Lady Jean...do you really imagine that the political parties choose leaders who truly represent the aspirations of ordinary people? Do you? I suggest that when one has a number of carefully selected stinkers to vote for, none of whom in fact represents the aspirations of ordinary people, one has a serious problem on one's hands. Which stinker then gets your vote? And why would you vote under such a circumstance? Does it come down to picking the least of several evils? I believe that's about as good as it usually gets, and I'm not at all sure that's good enough.

To abstain from voting under such circumstances IS a statement, just as the abstention of a seated member of parliament from, say, a declaration of war is a statement.

To dismiss such a statement as being necessarily meaningless is a bit presumptuous, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 01:23 AM

LadyJean: With all do respect

I do vote and I do pay attention. Doesn't matter much when campaigns require money from the high rollers and when party membership and voting is rigged. Only the rich and well connected can even hope to get to a place where I can vote for them.

Seems to me that none of those people represent me or the people they have been elected to serve. If so, why have millions of Canadian dollars gone to friends of elected politicians instead of health and education?

I actually liked "Da Man" because at least he was an intelligent statesman. I liked Trudeau for the same reason. I pay very high taxes and appreciate it when I know the money is going toward social programs but when the money goes to war or to line someone's pockets, thats when I get angry.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM

I live in Vancouver too, and the infuriating thing right now,
is that while millions of our tax dollars are wasted, go to pay off political cronies (ad agencies who take a cut in passing on a cheque)
a number of small business I know, including mine are being audited
and nickeled and dimed.
Were ok but a graphic designer friend recently went through a pst tax audit-
figure this- there is no pst tax on design, but if you give the customer $500 worth of design and $20 piece of film (then everything is taxable not just the film) on the other hand if you email or upload the design files there is no tax, but if you give the customer a 50cent cd, then there is a tax on everything. You cant sell the customer the cd, or even give it to him but its ok if you loan it to him. Are you following me? Ludicrous?

also any software etc, bought from out of province on which there was no pst - you must self-assess and pay that tax.
Basically they hired a bunch of people to collect tax, who are paid on a quota basis.

Another printer I know was assessed at $30,000. They didnt have the money and would have probably shut down and put 6 people on the street (the tax people didnt care). They finally hired a tax lawyer ($7grand) who got it all thrown out.

Of course the first thing the prov. liberals did when elected, was a give away $600+ million with a tax cut.

then they cut services, increased provincial taxes, tried to take away senior citizens bus passes?, sell some of our highways, even cut a books for the blind program.

the trouble is the previous govt was equally useless, but what happens is that the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other.
petr.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Benjamin
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:27 PM

I'm not sure we need the first or the last words in this tittle. I've said all along that politics is a mess, period. There have been studies that suggest that the best liars are the natural leaders. That doesn't mean that all good leaders are scums, I just can't think of one who isn't in the last hundred years.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:41 PM

Guest Petr, re the tax on design if it is supplied to a client on film or CD, that is weird. We are in the design business and our work has never been subject to PST, nor are we registered for it.

All our designs remain our intellectual property, for which we retain the original. Subsequent copies of our designs, for our client's use are printed on paper and and those paper copies cannot be legally reproduced or used, without our expressed permission. Are your friends in the graphic design business selling the designs and not retaining the intellectual rights to them? I'm trying to get my head around this one and it doesn't add up. Perhaps it has something to do with the inherently reproduceable format of film and CD? But then again, when does anything the government comes up with have to be logical.

I've asked our accountant for clarification, as we have been been gearing up to do 3D rotations and fly throughs in CD format, for our customer's in the future, as an inclusion with our 2D designs.

I already resent the shit out of the amount of time I expend on being an unpaid tax collector for the Feds, I don't relish the thought of being forced to be a tax collector for the Province too. I still think I should have the right to send them a bill or at least keep part of the GST we collect, as an administration fee.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 08:23 PM

Hi Metchosin, Im a printer and in general I charge pst for design anyway, unless its going to another printer who is pst exempt. Ive been taking a closer look at the pst rules (although there are endless bulletins).

the graphic designer who went through the audit - was told that if a customer gets a tangible product (in this case film, or cd) then it is taxable. (and if he were to charge the film separately then he has to prove that its not for the same design- how you do that I dont know) They even tried to make him pay on the occasions that he sent
a digital inkjet proof on to the printer (since that was something tangible).
They looked at a random 3month period and averaged out how much he should have been collecting and pro-rated it for the past 6 years
(which is how far back they can go).

(although when we got audited we had to go back 20years in paperwork)

As far as a pst collection, there is a small commission that you deduct for collecting (3% or so) but since he wasnt doing it right, that was disallowed, Plus penalties and interest (back 6 years)

they seized the money from his account, no opportunity to question it and fight it. Although he probably can and should fight it/ it makes it tough to survive in an already difficult time.

essentially, they have hired a whole bunch of new people to collect pst and their plan is to audit everyone, (and go back 6 years)
from then on everyone will be audited every 6 years. So its a good idea to talk to the accountant.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM

B.C. Provincial politics REALLY stink! Seems that they are scraping the barrel to make up for the so-called tax cuts that they brought in.
Now federally - crown corporations being used to launder money? Of course Martin knew about it. He probably suggested it. Why do you think he has been such a successful businessman? You don't get rich by being honest.

Looks like we are in the same bind as the U.S. Whats the option?

At least, from what I understand, Martin believes a strong Canada means strong environmental policies. Do you believe him?

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM

Well, I am 56 years old, and I have been voting for close to 40 years. I missed voting in one election for which I was eligible (municipal, provincial, federal, teacher association, etc) to vote, and that was because I didn't get to the pre-election voting station (got the date mixed up). I am fairly well informed, and I keep aware of the issues. My politics are left of center on most issues. I have only ever voted three times for the party that won. However, I keep trying.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:54 PM

I need this thread to survive. I really want to know about Martin and about the other candidates. I like Jack Layton, but don't know enough about him.

I think its funny, too, that Americans aren't the least bit concerned about Canadian politics. I wonder if they realize how strong Martin is. If he wins and Bushes loses, Canada may well emerge with a stronger economy. Martin will pay lip service to whoever the U.S. president might be, but look out when it comes to trade.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM

dianavan, why would the average American care in the least about Canadian politics? IMO, your premise that Canada may end up with a stronger economy than the US is interesting, particularly in regard to the lower Canadian debt level, but given the massive disparity of population and economic scale between the two countries and the existance of NAFTA, in most ways we are inextricably linked, economically, with what happens in the US, for good or ill, which makes any sort of strength Canada could garner, rather moot.

The only way out of being massively affected by a severe downturn in the US economy would be for Canada to feverishly expand its markets further into the Far East and Europe and to rapidly develop larger sections of secondary industry to offset the almost exclusive bulk of Canadian product headed south and to stop relying primarily on the export of raw materials. IMO you are rather naive to think that the US would allow that to happen. Matin will supply the US with the vaseline.

I do take exception to your blanket statement that one doesn't become rich by being honest. It has been my experience, in those that I have met over the years, that the accumulation of wealth and honesty are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, when it comes to the Canadian Steam Ship Lines, expediency, rather than moral commitment seem to have been the operating force. Because of my inate prejudices, I will reserve the right to view Martin's honesty in the political arena as highly suspect too.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:25 PM

Metchosin: I do take exception to your blanket statement that one doesn't become rich by being honest. It has been my experience, in
those that I have met over the years, that the accumulation of wealth and honesty are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I'm talking about the VERY wealthy - not people who are wealthy because they have been employed in right livelihood. Most big money is made through exploitation of the masses. I, too, have wealthy friends who are decent people but they mostly inherited their wealth and spend most of their time trying to figure out how to make it last so they never have to work for anyone else.

You are absolutely right about developing secondary industries. We are practically giving away our resources.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM

Most big money is made through exploitation of the masses. I, too, have wealthy friends who are decent people but they mostly inherited their wealth and spend most of their time trying to figure out how to make it last so they never have to work for anyone else.

So, what you seem to be saying is that the rich become rich by exploiting the masses, but that your friends are decent folks who inherited their wealth. What that suggests to me is that it was their daddies, mommies or grandparents who exploited the masses. Same difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM

dianavan, I included massively wealthy individuals in my statement too, not just those that have done well. They may be less common and some of them even recognize that they have gained their fortune through blind luck and being in the right place, at the right time with a good idea, service or product and not because they are any brighter or better educated or more deserving than those who didn't end up in the same position as themselves.

And, most of them are Americans and some I know are Republicans and others I believe are Democrats. I don't normally defend these individuals, it goes against my left of centre social inclinations and they usually don't require the defence of others, but when you allow yourself to put a face to what is being said about some of them, a little fair play is warranted. That is not to say that I haven't met others who in IMHO are pretty trivial and others that hardly qualify as human beings.

Your statement is similar to those made by some who assert that all who at times require or have to avail themselves of social assistance permanently are all lazy bums that are satisfied with living off the wealth generated by others. That blanket statement is a crock too.

I have also met rich, poor and in between also, whose ethics are very questionable and IMNSHO it has very little to do with their bank account.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM

Actually, I'm in total agreement. Wealth does not necessarily exclude compassion, but quite generally it does. You are right, on the surface (if you don't get into politics) they are quite nice and usually very well mannered.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Metchosin
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:08 AM

It always strikes me odd, as a Canadian, when I look at the other threads, and see how many Americans have such reverence for and ascribe such mythic, heroic attributes to their dead Presidents. Canadians on the other hand, generally do not view their Prime Ministers as usually anything more than dead politicians.

Trudeau may have been an exception, but he came at a time when Canadians wanted something of the sex appeal of Kennedy and saw in Trudeau, youth, fresh possibility and new beginnings; a different form of politics. Maybe some Canadians are cynical because a lot of that promise did not come to fruition, particularly for their children.

Or perhaps a Canadian's cynicism regarding politicians may have been set even earlier by the cynicism of Canada's own politicians. Whereas George Washington is remebered for "Father, I cannot tell a lie, I cut the tree", Canada's Conservative Father of Confederation, Sir John A. MacDonald was heard to say "The job of a politician is to shake the acorns from the tree to the pigs below". Maybe we can forgive him because he was also quite regularly drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:32 PM

Hell, Metch, being regularly drunk is the one thing I can forgive ol' John A. for. I certainly can't blame him.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:18 PM

Nobody knew Sir John A drank until they saw him sober one Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Canadian politicians stink, too
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:52 AM

Myths and heroism create a strong sense of nationalism. This began with the U.S. history of rebellion. Canada has never been a rebel. It still suffers from vestiges of colonialism. We still have a picture of the queen in our classrooms and we are definitely not flag wavers. We can't even define ourselves unless it is to laugh at ourselves. I like it that way. Politics are something we endure not something we believe in. I'm not sure of anything I've just written - I'm just wondering out loud.

d