source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?

Subject: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: marthabees
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:43 PM

Call me crazy, but I'll like to see a list of every tune Bill Monroe wrote. I've just recently realized how totally unique his music is/was and I want to explore it further.

I'd especially like lead sheets for all the tunes.....which I doubt exist....... but I figured this august group would be a great place to start asking.

I'm not ready to buy all the recordings yet unless somebody knows of a compilation.

So my initial quest is a LIST of the names of all the tunes he composed.

Any help on this?

Thanks so much,
Martha in Tallahassee

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 10:24 PM

Whew! Go to Amazon.com and get the listings for box sets (but buy from Camsco).
There are 105 tracks in the Bear family boxed set, 1970-1979.

But what do you mean?
His original compositions? His arrangements?
His collaborations with Scruggs?

There is a list of works here, but I don't know how good it is: Bill Monroe

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: marthabees
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:42 PM

Q - as my first post indicated, I was looking for his compositions. The clicky you posted sent me to a list with 85 songs. That will fer shure get me started!

Wow, and thanks a lot. Just what I was looking for! Woo-hoo!

And thanks for the Camsco tip.........

Martha

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:44 AM

marthabees, I just glanced at that list, but some of them are not his compositions, but are his arrangements of material composed by others, or traditional.

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:22 AM

A pdf "Bill Monroe Songbook" can be downloaded (400 KB) at Monroe Songbook.

This is NOT limited to songs Bill wrote, but would give you about 200 songs he performed as a starting place. Unfortunately, it's lyrics only.

The book appeared several years ago, and I downloaded it then, but the site subsequently disappeared. On a wild chance, I searched for the "publisher" shown in my download, and found them at the above site. The book offered is the same "April 2000 edition" I already had. Google says they're located in Nashville, but several clues suggest the "group" - or whatever it is - has a Japanese tie-in. The new site seems to have a lot more up than when I visited previously, but I haven't poked around in it.

John

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GLoux
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:24 AM

"Can't You Hear Me Callin'" by Richard Smith is a great book on Big Mon. The last 50+ pages or so are references to all sorts of resources that the author used that Marthabees might find useful.

-Greg

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:14 AM

I think the underlying issue here is the assumption that people sat down and wrote songs.... I think most of the music that became bluegrass was music already floating around in some form, and then adapted, wasn't it? It wasn't like country music, today, where people go off on a writing binge.

~S~

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

Not sure how Monroe qualifies as unique, there being so many bluegrass musicians who worked with him and followed him--also not sure why it is so important that the tunes be tunes he had written, particularly given that he took songwriter/composer credits for many pieces that were really traditional--at any rate:


I went to the BMI site(Monroe's tunes are registered with BMI) and did a search on for the writer composer--came up with 233 titles--this is the link, though I couldn't get the blue clicky maker to make a blue clicky, so you'll have to cut and paste--hope it works--if it doesn't, just go to BMI.com and do the search yourself--

http://repertoire.bmi.com/writer.asp?fromrow=1&torow=25&keyname=MONROE%20BILL&querytype=WriterID&keyid=237025&page=1&blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&affiliation=BMI&cae=87215859

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

M Ted's Link to BMI

John

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:20 PM

MTed

To many hard core purists, Bill Monroe is "only" way bluegrass is done. As one who is quite active in this area, I don't always subscribe to that notion, but respect the impact that he had. You don't know how many times I have heard some old hillbilly say, "That ain't the way Bill done it."

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: marthabees
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 05:15 PM

I appreciate the info from all of you.

Actually, the "unique" part of Monroe is the part I'm trying to nail down - for my own satisfaction. He uses interesting harmonies, not that others don't of course. I'm just trying to distill for myself what his uniqueness, melodically and harmonically, are.

I'm new enough to this bluegrass world (coming from the more classical venue) that there's a whole lot I'd like to learn.

What I've learned so far is that I have a lot more respect for Bill now than when I started.

Martha

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 05:28 PM

Another excellent book is Neil V. Rosenberg, "Bluegrass, a History," 1985, Univ. of Illinois Press, 447 pages. Extensive Bibliography and Discography.

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:06 AM

As for the concept of "Bluegrass" it is to my ear that old Scottish and Irish tunes played as "Old-timey" (usually simplified and repeated ad-nauseum for dance music) in the US was taken by Bill Monroe in the '30s and played faster (and with more skill) with the "grace" notes reinserted and the keys changed. But unlike the Irish and Scottish originals, Old-Timey and Bluegrass styles lend to a sameness. As the old joke goes, "What's the difference between one Bluegrass tune and another?" Answer, "The name of the tune."

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 07:12 AM

You often see this irish/Scottish origin for oldtime and bluegrass being asserted, but what actual evidence is there. I would have thought English traditional music would have been equally(at least) important. The handful of old world tunes that survived moderately intact in the American fiddle tradition seem as likely to be English as not, or at least the ones I've seen mentioned seem to be. Not that it is at all easy to define a tune as English or Scottish or whatever.
And while Bill Monroe's family was of Scottish extraction, I believe, that doesnt apply to the majority of oldtime musicians, does it? For example, if you go through lists of oldtime musicians you dont get a strong impression of a preonderance of Irish or Scottish names.

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:13 AM

Martin--I know the hard core view(and tend that when you define bluegrass narrows to "what Bill Monroe plays", it makes you a Bill Monroe fan, not the fan of a particular kind of music ), but was curious as to marthabees interest, as she is not your average bluegrass afficianado--

As to the roots of Bluegrass, it is a style of playing that owes as much to jazz as anything else--the English/Irish/Scottish elements in the repertoire are less important than rags, minstrel tunes, and 19th century pop music--

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM

Thanks to each of you for your contributions to this dialogue. I have enough to go on now.....

Martha in Tallahassee

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 09:50 PM

M.Ted

I kind of agree and disagree. In one sense, bluegrass music as we know it really can't exist at all without Bill Monroe. On the other hand, by today's standards, it is much more.

I really don't care what bluegrass "owes itself to. For that matter, I really don't care what jazz, rags, minstrel tunes, and 19th century pop music owes itself to, which I am sure is something else pre-dating that.

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:36 AM

The BMI list of 233 (or whatever) that M Ted mentioned is a nice list for a fan; a good cross-section of his work. I really can't see the point of roping out his "genuine originals."
The important thing is the form that developed or evolved to the point that many people try to put a fence around it. I guess that I don't much care if the piece is "100% original" or a make-over; I can appreciate his music without worrying overmuch about that.

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:37 AM

Martin--The value in going back to sources is that it is a great way of finding songs and musical material that hasn't been used to death--also, you find other ways of doing things than the way that happens to be current, and it can also give you insight into how current stuff really works by seeing where it came from. As to Jazz, it is a creative process that can make any music more interesting--

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:56 AM

I agree with you MTed again to a point. If it wasn't conveyed before, I am the first one who will tell the Monroe purist that there is another way, but overall much of it does go back to Monroe himself.

Going back to the sources is fine if you want to compare this for that. Bill Monroe might have had his influences, but as far as bluegrass he is the source. In a way, the same can be said for Hank Williams and "modern" country music. Hank had his influences, for sure, but he is the source where modern country music began.

Analyzing and overanalyzing can get well, anal. Just how far does one keep going back for influences. Eventually it will all lead to the same place, someone banging on something to a rhythm.

As I have been active as a musician in bluegrass for years, have a broad musical collection of it from the oldgrass to the newgrass, I find most jazz about as listenable as fingernails on a chalkboard. Also, even with room for creativity, bluegrass is overall a very structured type of music, that overall has expectations. I'm not at all condemning bluegrass for this. Quite frankly, there is a certain comfort level in these expectations.

Going back to the sources is fine if you want to compare this for that. Bill Monroe might have had his influences

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:29 PM

I almost think the authorship of a tune looses significance when it's performed by Monroe. He made every piece his own. Think of the Jimmie Rodgers tunes Bill recorded. They become an entirely different music in his hands.

Of course many wonderful players have enhanced and extended the genre since its inception in 1945 but one thing that's remained a constant has been the beat and the phrasing that Monroe imparted to his music.

Some of Monroe's music uses airs and lyrics from Scottish/Irish/Appalachian traditional sources but the music itself, as others have mentioned, owes more to blues and jazz than anything else. Yes, bluegrass is highly structured and somewhat rigid in its forms but then so is flemenco. Just as there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 1, so is there great opportunity for innovation and variation within the structures of traditionally based music like bluegrass and flemenco.

The area of western Kentucky that helped define Monroe's music also helped define the music of Merle Travis. Travis' music is also jazz and blues based. I know a great deal has been written about both of these great masters but I wonder if serious academic research has been done on that area of Kentucky, in general, with a view to discovering why so much innovative music was spawned there.

We've had quite a few threads on the origin and definition of bluegrass music. I'm surprised that links to those threads don't appear at the top of this one. I guess I don't understand how the common themes are identified and structured.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: source for ALL Bill Monroe tunes names?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM

I don't know, Martin, I find it kind of hard have a very serious discussion of music with anyone who is dismissive of jazz--you're entitled to like whatever you want of course, and there is some great music that is bluegrass, but your opinion on anything else isn't going to be worth much--

As to bluegrass, I would have to say that without Earl Scruggs style banjo picking, bluegrass isn't bluegrass-As for Hank Williams, he was a great singer and songwriter, but I would have to say that Western Swing was the beginning of "Modern" country and western music.