BS: You Get What You Perceive

Subject: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM

Many years ago, someone gave me a very wise insight. I am reminded of it often. "You get the life that you perceive." Let me give some examples:

My wife and I visit the sick whenever we can. One of the women we visit has MS. She was first taken down by the disease early in her marriage, about 30 years ago. When her husband realized that he would be faced with a lifetime of caring for her, he took off and was never seen again. For most of the last 30 years, the woman has been wheelchair bound. In the years that we've been visiting her, she has been in bed, and most recently is now confined to a hospital bed in a room in the basement of her home. Her sister has taken care of her all those years, and last year had surgery for cancer of her kidneys.
If you think it is depressing to visit them, you're delightfully mistaken. When we visit Lena, even though she can no longer get out of bed, and has very limited use of her arms and hands, she is always smiling. When we ask how she is doing, she always answers with a big smile. "Don't worry about me! I'm doing fine!" And the truth is, I think she IS doing fine. She perceives life as a gift and is thankful for the small blessings she has in her everyday life. I sometimes wonder if her husband who abandoned her has had such a positive life.

Lena is not unusual. Another woman we visit suddenly woke up one morning totally blind. I'd never even seen her wearing glasses. The blindness was irreversible, and after months of visiting specialists and many of us praying that she regain her sight, she accepted that it wasn't going to happen, and she started giving thanks for what she still has. You'd be hard-pressed to find a smile as radiant as Carrie's, and she gives so much, despite being in her 90's and too frail to walk without help.

Of course, there is the other side of the coin. A woman I know believes that no one has ever loved her, or ever will. Her pyschiatrist explained how she perceives life. Because she does not believe anyone can love her, any loving act is looked upon as deceitful and fraudulent. If people try to love her, she becomes increasingly abusive toward them until they finally get angry with her and her perception of herself and others is reinforced. She is driven to prove that no one can love her, and the greatest threat to her life is love. A great tragedy.

There are others who believe that everyone is prejudiced, so they see prejudice in acts where none exists. They're like the person who thinks that black people are offended when someone orders black coffee. Some see selfishness and egotism in the most sincere. loving, selfless acts of kindness.

If you perceive people as basically prejudiced, selfish and unloving you will live a life of suspicion, with feelings of being rejected and betrayed. And, no matter how much you are blessed with good health, financial comfort, and all the other things we seek, your life will be tainted by your perceptions. We all know people like that.

There are others who believe that there is a basic goodness in people, and that life is a gift, not an entitlement who can find joy in the most limited life. We see this all the time... a friend who just had his leg amputated just below the knee because of sugar diabetes. Since the surgery. he's twice lost his balance trying to use a walker and fallen on the stump, splitting it open. If you're feeling depressed, you should go visit him. You'll walk out of his hospital room spiritually lifted by just being in his presence.

I know you know people whose spirit has carried them through the hardest of times, and you've found inspiration in their hope. There are people in here like that, that I feel blessed to know.

Now, I'm going to lean back, kick off my shoes and enjoy what you have to add.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM

Although I suffer from depression myself, I believe there is goodness in all men. Unfortunately some people seem to go out of there way to persuade me otherwise.

"When I am weary and cannot sleep,
I count my blessings instead of sheep,
then I fall asleep
counting my blessings"

Instead of thinking that the glass is half empty or half full, I wonder what's it half empty / half full of!

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:07 PM

WYSIWYG.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:18 PM

This appears to me to be an extension of the old, "You are what you eat." Sure, there are lots of us who greet each day with continually diminishing enthusiasm. Certainly this is a reflection of our mindset. Perhaps one of the more tragic problems some folks experience is to have brains that cannot perceive the world in other than negative ways. It isn't their fault. It is the manifestation of how much their body chemistry has become out of whack (to use a medical term.) Sometimes medications help to restore chemical balance and sometimes they don't.

It is my belief that some of the things that trigger the chemical imbalance in the first place might have roots in a person's inability to find something positive in their lives upon which to focus. Instead, each time something goes amiss, the response pattern that eventually evolves allows no vision beyond the problem.

I strongly believe that if a person sets up a pattern of finding positive things in their world, problems, no matter how difficult, will not become the only focus. Those people who can teach themselves to extract pleasure from even the smallest of things might never lack for defense against depressive forces.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Janie
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:30 PM

Jerry--you have just described the basic theory behind cognitive behavioral therapy.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:33 PM

There is an old folk tale.

A wise man sat at a crossroads, was approached by a traveller. "What are the people like in the next village" the traveller asked.

"What were they like in the last place you visited?" asked the wise man?

"Miserable bunch, and very unfriendly," he replied.

"They are just the same in the village ahead" said the man at the crossroads.

Later on that day another traveller approached the man. "What are the people like in the next village?" the traveller asked.

"What were they like in the last place you visited?" asked the wise man?

"Marvellous bunch" said the traveller, "very friendly and a great attitude to life" he said.

"They are just the same in the village ahead" said the wise man.

Regards,


Folkiedave

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:43 PM

Thanks for that, folkiedave. That pretty much describes it in a nutshell. And Allan, to add to what you've said, there are many people with a perception of life as dangerous and depressing who may find it impossible to focus on the blessings that are all around them. For some, it may be a chemical imbalance which can be relieved with medication. Others have such a deep-seated belief in the basic evil in others that they can not be helped by medication. Someone described people who are afflicted in that way as those who have eyes, who cannot see and ears, who cannot hear. There is no blame to be meted out here. Just compassion and encouragement.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: freightdawg
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:18 PM

Jerry, reading your post brought to mind a beautiful little poem that I had in my files at one time but have lost. I punched in the words I could remember into the Mudcat search box and gawwwwwwwly, sarge, the poem magically appeared. The poem reminds me of how my grandfather used to drink his coffee. He would pour it in his saucer and blow on it to cool it.

"Drinking From My Saucer"

I've never made a fortune, and its probably too late now,
but it doesn't really matter, I'm happy anyhow.
And as I go along life's way, I'm reaping better than I sowed,
I'm drinking from my saucer, 'cause my cup has overflowed.

I don't have lots of riches, and sometimes the going's tough,
but I have a family that loves me, and that makes me rich enough.
I thank God for his mercies, and the blessings he's bestowed,
I'm drinking from my saucer, 'cause my cup has overflowed.

I remember times when things went wrong, my faith got a little thin,
But all at once the dark clouds broke, and the sun peeked through again.
Lord, please help me not to gripe about the tough rows I have hoed,
I'm drinking from my saucer, cause my cup has overflowed.

If God gives me strength and courage, when the way grows steep and rough,
I'll not ask for other blessings, 'cause I'm already blessed enough.
And may I never be too busy, to help others bear their loads,
I'll keep drinking from my saucer, 'cause my cup has overflowed.

(author unknown, but attributed in the thread to Cindy O'Connor and Michael Combs)

I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I have been kicked by so many people (especially by people I loved and trusted) that I have really become cynical and untrusting. I have kind of learned to live by the credo, "growl first, wag your tail later."

Thanks for reminding me of this little jewel, and maybe I can try to give people a little bit more than just doubt.

Smiling,

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:23 PM

I took a risk earlier this week when a woman came up to me to ask for money for breakfast. She had obviously been sleeping outside for a while. She was very despondent, and said it was humiliating. I gave her five bucks, mentioned the bad weather, and told her that what she might try to feel better is go and find somebody who needs help and help them. I thought she might lash out pretty severely at me for that, but instead she smiled, after a while, and said "yeah, huh?"

(I do hope you get that psychiatrist reprimanded for speaking about his patient.)

I'm not quite sure that you can make a village nice by thinking that they are nice, but that makes me think of Jimmy Stewart in the movie Harvey. He always *behaved* as if he assumed everyone was nice, but it wasn't clear that he actually believed it. I've been thinking about trying to imitate him in that film, and see what happens. I'm nowhere near the actor he was, though. (They almost gave him a psychiatric drug to make him normal, then suddenly realized they preferred him irrational.)

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:26 PM

I dunno, freightdawg. You look safe to pet. Want to be scratched behind the ears?

Thanks for sharing the poem... it's delightful

We've all been kicked..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:27 PM

Here's a link to Cindy O'Connor's website.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:45 PM

You can find the recording of the poem/song here at Michale Comb's website.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Deckman
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:08 PM

Jerry, Here you go again, posting another well thought out and expressed thread!!!!

This subject reminds me strongly of that wonderful song written by Tom Paxton: "This World Goes Round And Round." CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:02 PM

here are some interesting ideas of the topic of perceptions, from Lao Tzu:

48. Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots, and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you.

First, is the path of acceptance.
Affirm everyone and everything.
Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction regardless of circumstances.
Embrace all things as part of the Harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it.

The Second Path is that of denial.
Recognise that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth. Peel all the veils way, and you will arrive at the Oneness.

Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness.

Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with it.   All you have to do is participate in it.

51.

Those who want to know the truth of the universe should practise the four cardinal virtues.

The first is reverence for all life; this manifests as unconditional love, and respect for oneself and all other beings.

The second is natural sincerity, this manifests as honesty, simplicity, and faithfulness.

The third is gentleness; this manifests as kindness, consideration for others, and sensitivity to spiritual truth.

The fourth is supportiveness; this manifests as service to others, without expectation of reward.

The four virtues are not an external dogma, but a part of your original nature. When practised, they give birth to wisdom, and evoke the five blessings: health, wealth, happiness, longevity, and peace.
........................................................
these comments taken from Hua hu Ching (the Unknown Teachings of Lao Tzu) (the oral teachings, smuggled out of China and written down this century) verse 48, verse 51.

I think the path of acceptance is the healthier way to go.

- fred

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:25 PM

Anal retinitis can give a person a crappy outlook on life. Smile at people and many will smile back. Those that don't may have burdens of which we are unaware. They may benefit from the smile. It could change their life.

I sometimes work bingos for our school. One lady was habitually grumpy. Took me seven or eight evenings (over the course of about four months) to get her to talk a bit. She had a husband with a terminal illness. She had a load to carry. She smiles at me now and we trade a few words when she plays.

Early in my teaching career I had a student who was really down, and he gave me a wise-ass answer to something or other. I asked him to step into the hallway so we could have a word. I had every intention of reaming him out. A friend of his in the class called me over. The boy's dog had been killed by a car the night before. He thought the sun rose and set on that dog. We had a different conversation in the hallway. Ya just never know. I learned that day that first ya find out what's goin' on. I came close to a very bad mistake.

I like Will Rogers' "I never met a man I didn't like." We know that's an ideal, but it's a good one.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:43 PM

At risk of rambling on, I have one more short story. A student whom I will call Al was disliked by everyone. He was obnoxious, rude and loud about it. I saw something else in Al. I conned him into helping me with something to do with an event that was going on at the school. He decided I was OK. We talked often over the course of the year. Al was being raised by his mother who had a drug dependency. He took care of his younger brother and sister. He eventually moved away from the place I taught. I ran into him in a fairly large city years later. We went for a coffee. He told me he had been thinking about ending his life when he and I struck up the friendship at school. (I'd had an inkling of that at the time.) He is married now and he has a child of his own. He works hard for his family. When we parted (I have no idea where he is now), he kinda stumbled around looking for words to say thanks. We shook hands, traded smiles, and I told him I was proud of him. He's proud of himself, too.

Ya just never know.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:50 PM

You got it, Bruce. Over the years, people have come up to my wife, out of the clear blue. She'd never seen them before, but they told her that God had put her in their path. One had a son who had just committed suicide, one had just been diagnosed with cancer. My wife was working behind the counter of a department store, so she couldn't do much more than listen. Years later, total strangers would walk up to her and say that they'd come to her long ago and the things she had said to them changed her life. Not only didn't she recognize them, she couldn't remember saying anything particularly wise. Of course, it wasn't what she said. It was the listened and obviously cared about them. That can mean more than the greatest wisdom of the philosophers.

Caring.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:54 PM

Bingo, buddy, and Amen to that.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:58 PM

Nice thread.
[I'll post more later]

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:42 PM

I clicked on this title because it was insightful.

One can even carry the concept into virtual metaphysical realms as in "making things happen" that may seem beyond conscious control.

Ask and thou shalt recieve may not always be a straight forward process but it works much the same as people who are determined to stay in "fuckit" mode. With practice.

With a clinical therapist background I often do pictures that have various cognitive challenges.

A pessimist might view the pic below with sadness
but an optimist may see the hope and rejoining of old friends.
http://angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/alone.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:39 PM

I see the two paths, acceptance and denial, as being inseparable.


Denial: All of physical reality is illusion.

Acceptance: I lovingly embrace the perception of reality that I experience.


Denial: The outer manifestation of the person I perceive is an illusion.

Acceptance: I lovingly embrace the true nature of the person I perceive, and I lovingly embrace his or her outer representation.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:40 PM

I used to think a lady I knew was wonderfully kind and caring. She did a lot of nice things for people.   She was very active in her church. She supported many good causes.
Then one day she stabbed me in the back. That was when I noticed that she favored one of her children over the other. That her faith was 50% self righteousness. That she moped for hours over trivial things.
I find myself wishing I had noticed all this BEFORE she stuck a figurative knife in my back. Cynicism has it's good points.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Annie
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:56 PM

I see that there is more to the story than the picture reveals. If the pooch made it to safety probably people did too. Including the guy with the camera. Am I a P or an O? Most likely I can be either, and perceived by others as one or the other depending on when they were around me.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 12:04 AM

you'vre got it, CarolC..

freda

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:24 AM

Well, I try to be an optimist and help where help is needed....but I am a cynic at heart...I figure they will always stab me in the back eventually, but I try not to show it. If the dog were still in the water.......I see the dog as having given up....as I sometimes do after doing all I can...I've been 'taken' many times in my life. Took me a long time to realize that you can't help all the people all the time. My dad's fault, I think. I was raised to be a Rescuer...and I still am, but I am a smarter Rescuer now, I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:38 AM

Trying to live a positive life means that you're going to get hurt. You can count on it. Living a negative life means you're going to not only get hurt, you're going to hurt yourself. Either way, you're going to get hurt.

I posted this on another thread and for those who didn't run across it, it's worth posting here:

LOVE THEM ANYWAY

People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centered
   Love them anyway

Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable
   Be honest and frank anyway

What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight
   Build anyway

Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth
   Give the world the best you have anyway

If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives
   Do good anyway

The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow
   Do good anyway

From Love Them Anyway by Bishop Muzorewa


I have seen all of these things to be true to some extent in my own life, as we all have. But, I've never regretted trying to do something good. My regrets are about when I didn't care enough to try, or was too self-absorbed to even notice the opportunities.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Allan C.
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:04 AM

Sorry, but I think the "Love Them Anyway" thing is greatly flawed. I can go along with the overall sense of it, but some of the lines in it bother me a bit. For instance, "The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow". I think that is incorrect. I know that I have held onto the memory of some of the great things people did for me a long, long time ago. In fact, once in a while I have had the pleasure of being reminded by someone of some small, good thing I did a long time back. On the other side of the coin, I used to have a sign that hung on the wall in the college copy center I once managed. It said, "The bitterness of poor quality will remain long after the meeting of the deadline has been forgotten." I guess what that alludes to is that folks will recall the bad things for much longer than the good. It has been my experience that the good times don't get equal air time.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM

Hey, Allan: Like many wise writings, the case may be overstated. I read it as, Even though some people are unreasonable... rather than All people are unreasonable.

I spent 30 years as Executive Director of a wonderful Museum. We had a great staff, and the Museum was highly respected in the community.
We spent years working as a dedicated group, building programs that were reasonably priced and available to the whole community. Within a year after I left, the Free Wednesdays I insituted 30 years earlier so that even the poorest families in the town could enjoy the Museum was discontinued, all fees were greatly increased, new fees were added on top of admission fees, and more than half of the staff quit.
I've talked a lot with the staff members who left (most of them without another job in hand) and I encouraged them to remember that even though what we built was destroyed, no one will ever be able to diminish the value of our work. Rather than focus completely on others destroying what we built, we need to soften the anger by rejoicing in the good that we did for so many years. I think the point Bishop Muzorewa is making is that we need to love, irregardless of whether or not it is appreciated. And yes, the good we do IS remembered by many people. BUT, do good not for approval or appreciation. Do it whether you get the appreciation or not.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:24 AM

You Get What You Percieve - How True!

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:51 AM

A footnote:

As I said, I used the text from Bishop Muzorewa for a Christmas card many years ago. I gave cards to all my staff. One staff member opened the card, read the first line and yelled "I'm not unreasonable and illogical," crumpled up the card without even reading the second line and threw it in the waste basket. She was really angry and insulted, and even though many other staff members posted their cards on their bulletin boards, they couldn't convince her that it wasn't a personal insult to her. (In honesty, she was unreasonable and illogical..)

I guess she proved my point. She got what she perceived.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:28 AM

This thread is related to a thought I had recently.

I had gone to a concert of music from and Andes. That music is so joyous. Even when it's sad, there's a beauty to it that shows the musician is enjoying it.

Now, few people have had it as hard as the native peoples of South America. They are poor, conquered and oppressed. Why the happy music?

Then you look at Americans. Most of them have a fine lifestyle. Even the poor have a better life than the people of the Andes. Yet their popular music is mostly depressing - whiny Country, hostile rap, ugly rock.

I dunno, I just dunno.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Allan C.
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM

I couldn't help but to examine Leenia's thoughts further... The lyrics of the blues, which is distinctly American in origin and is usually associated with the downtrodden and financially disadvantaged, often contains both humor (albeit off-color much of the time) and hope. Perhaps most especially the latter. "The sun's gonna shine on my back door someday."

I'm not a particular fan of American country music; but I know that there are hundreds of songs that are not only upbeat, but also downright humorous. I think the honky-tonk, tears-in-my-beer stuff has tainted a lot of people's impression of country music - even my own for many years.

As for current poplular music - I don't listen to enough of it to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:46 AM

In politics, one of the first truths one learns is as follows:
Perception IS Reality

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 12:58 PM

This thread also made me think of something.

I work with a man who I greatly respect. He is really a religious and good person and we have had some good discussions.

He once threw me for a loop concerning that age old cliche that people are actually good overall. I like him, believe that anyone who believes this is naive.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:29 PM

Well, that's the kind of belief that will prove itself out in experience. Core beliefs are not unchangeable but they are sometimes hard to recognize, being hard to see from so close up --like the nose on your own face. WHichever core beliefs you hold to your bosom, you'll find they filter your experience nicely so you get what you believe you will get, see what you believe will be there, and experience just as you believe the world to be.

This is exceeding true, even in the case where you believe it is not. In other words, if you deeply believe that experience defines belief rathert han the other way around, it will look that way and you will experience it that way, and it will be sp obvious you'll wonder why everyone doesn't just see it. In other words, you will be fully experiencing what you believe, even if that happens to be that it doesn't work that way.

What I believe is that people are good underneath all their baggage; but some of them are so heavily wrapped up with their personal traumae and concomitant dramatizations of thought and emotion that it is not easy to break through to the basic personality. Always worth doing, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: SueB
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM

Are Pessimist or Optimist the only choices? What's wrong with being a Realist or a Pragmatist?

I have nothing against optimism, per se, but I'm kinda rubbed the wrong way by self-proclaimed Optimists who feel the need to be all smug and self-congratulatory about it. They remind me of people who have Found God, or Quit Smoking, or just come out of an EST seminar, who have found The Answer and now think that the only thing keeping you off what is Most Clearly the Path of Enlightenment is your own stubborn ignorance and bad attitude.

FWIW, I know, and have known, many fine people who do and have done quite a lot of good in the world in small ways and large ways, who never felt the need to advertise how much they've helped people.

If you must have a label for it, you could as easily call some Optimists: Idealists, Romantics, Sentimental, Manic Depressives in the Up Cycle, or People Seriously In Denial (true example, a friend's mother whose favorite expression was "Act As If, And It Will Be", who never "perceived" that her husband was sexually molesting her daughter.)

Personally, I prefer to be around people who tell it like it is, who aren't afraid of reality, warts and all, who don't need to sugar coat everything and aren't afraid to face the world without their rose-coloured glasses.

Does that makes me a Pessimist? I don't think so. People who run around proclaiming that It All Sucks and The End is Near can be kind of hard to take, as well, although they're sometimes more entertaining.

There must a balance somewhere... This is not to say that I don't agree that a small shift in outlook can make a big difference in your life, because I DO know that to be true, but aren't we all to some extent victims (or beneficiaries) of our genetics and our brain chemistry and our happy or unhappy childhoods, and for all we know, our karma from previous lifetimes?

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM

I guess I'm naive, then.

I know, however, that life is better with that naivete. Though there may be some cost in terms of occasional disappointments, I find that cost minimal compared to the personal inner relaxation and peace the attitude that "People are pretty good overall" allows me.

I am 73 now, and looking back, I can think of only ONE individual that ever knowingly harmed me in that time.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: SueB
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:40 PM

As usual, Amos says it best. That's telling it like it is.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:54 PM

Hey, Sue B: Just a couple of responses. First of all, I'm not a believer in labels, because they oversimplify things. Optomists can be realists, and they aren't necessarily smug. Pessimists may still try to lead a very positive life (if not an optomistic one.) In a way, I esepcially respect people who perceive life as threatening and dangerous, and yet try to live life as positively as they can.

As for "telling it like it is" I like one of my son's comments on that. He says that when someone says they "tell it like it is," he makes for the nearest door, because people who say that are almost invariably critical and judgmental. How often do you hear someone say, "I tell it like it is", followed by a compliment? I usually find that people who "tell it like it is" don't care whether you're hurt by their comments. They also confuse (as we all do) what they think with what "is." It'd be fairer to say, I tell it the way I see it."

One of my favorite definitions of honesty and love is:

Love without honesty is sentimentality
Honesty without love is cruelty

As for telling people the good that you do, if your motive for doing "good" is for building up your own reputation, then your acts are selfish, not generous.

This is a good discussion. Thanks for your comments.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:24 PM

Good underneath their baggage?

Hitler?
John Wayne Gacy?
Osama?
Saddam?
Eichmann?
Jeffrey Dahmer?
Mohammad Atta?
Over 4000 priests accused of molesting children since 1950?
Milosevic?

What were the basic personalities of these individuals?

People are overall bad but through teachings and good example they can overcome it. The world of humanity is and has not always been civilized. This is not a question of faith and beliefs, but more sociological in thinking. Remove all of the faith mumbo jumbo, and that is what you are left with.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:45 PM

Over 2000 students during my teaching career: Most of them were really good kids.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM

You were lucky to have students who were able to be influenced positively before they got to you. Just think what you would have had if that wasn't the case.

Just remember, all of those I listed plus countless others were once in someone's classroom also.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM

Martin:

It is clear that you have never seen the amazing phenomenon of an individual recovering some piece of their basic nature that had been beaten out of them. This is something like never having seen childbirth -- until you've done it, you're operating on serious omissions of infdormation.

"People are overall bad" is not only the saddest thing I have ever heard someone say, but it is simply not the case. The evidence is that when you improve an individual's memory and relieve them of the stress of uninspected trauma and loss, they tend to act more rational and more "good" (assuming that by good you mean non-destructive, productive, affectionate, communicating, etc.)

To answer your question, the basic personalities of the individuals you mention were deeply buried. It would be silly to try and guess what they might have been revealed as if they were unburdened enough to be revealed at all.

Sue: Thanks for the kind remarks!

Jerry: I wasn't telling it like it is in the critical sense you mean -- at least I don't think I was being critical. Your remarks seem non-sequitur therefore. But I do know what you mean about that fine balance between blunt honesty and compassion. There's always some way to say what is true without being hurtful, in my experience.
I think...

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:00 PM

Yo, Amos: I wasn't even thinking of you in the "Tell it like it is" observation. (Or Aaron Neville either, to make this musical.) I was commenting on SueB's comment that she prefers to be around people who "Tell it like it is." I think that there is always a need for honesty in any relationship. It's more a matter of whether the honesty is tempered with some level of sensitivity at least, if not love. Personally, the people I've know who proudly proclaim that the "Tell it like it is" have been guilty of some of the most astonishingly cruel comments I've ever heard. (An example.. "The jews got what they deserved." That's not "like it is," but a pathetic revelation of the true character of the person, who made that statement without the slightest awareness that it could be offensive."

Yuck.

You're a good man, Amos. I would never doubt your sensitivity.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:14 PM

Likewise, Jerry.

I came across this quote just now, FWIW, offered as spice to the conversation:

BELIEFS

With most people, unbelief in one thing is founded on blind belief in
another.

                                        Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:51 PM

I could accept your view, MG. Works out the same. Ends up that people are good. I'll remove the adverb "basically".

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

Amos,

I think you are living in a fantasy. Where did you get your Doctor's degree in psychology? a gumball machine?

The basic personalities of the individuals were deeply buried? How profound! What a revelation? Of course you analyzed all of these creeps on your couch in your basement. And they all opened up to you to reveal what was "buried" in their psyche. Or was it buried under their bed? Buried under the blankets? buried in their backyard?

I have seen way more than you would ever realize Amos, including the birth of my children, which is in this day and age a very common thing for a man to witness. People are bad, Amos. We need laws and rules to keep them from being so. Without the laws, rules, and guidelines for what is acceptable in a civilized world, do I have to paint you a picture of what it would be like?

My BS dectector is working. Glowing bright red when I point it at you,Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:36 PM

Hmm. I think this explains quite a bit.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

Don Firth

I guess it explains that you know how to hum.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:25 PM

MArtin,

You are confusing two things: how a person is basically and how they act socially.

I am sure you have seen plenty -- I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Again you mixed up two things. I said that if you haven't observed what happens when someone reclaims part of their own basic nature that has been beaten out of them at some point, you're missing part of the picture.

I know people act bad. You're perfectly right that laws and force are needed to restrain a small percentage from fouling up productive activity for the majority. Couldn't agree more. But the question wasn't about behaviour but about whether people were that way basically or not. And they aren't.

As for your abusive language, well, I'm sorry you find it ncessary -- did you think I would understand a more civil communication? Or does abuse prove something for you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:32 PM

ANd as it happens, I DID get my psychology degree from a gumball machine. You got a problem with that, weirdo??

:>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:47 PM

I think people are basically good and learn to be bad. Look at little children. They will come up to you and say "I love you" just because they can. Then when they get older they learn not to say it anymore, except to family members. At some point it's considered odd say "I love you" to someone you're not having sex with or related to.

I know a man who's a bully. But he takes in farm animals that are past their prime, and cares for them. Yesterday he had to put down a mule that he was very fond of, and he was clearly distressed. So while he's a jerk and a bully on the surface, he has some love in his heart.

I think we are born with innately loving hearts, and as we get older, that love gets stifled by rules and conventions and what have you. Then you have the choice to either find the love in your heart, or forget about it and become bitter.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:49 PM

Amos

The only thing you are saying that I can read from it all is that people are good because you say so.

I am saying that people are bad. Rules, laws, and norms of society, along with how people are taught to learn, obey, and observe the rules of society, gives them the basis to reason what is good.

Well, at least gumball machines now are usually a quarter as opposed to a penny when I was a kid.

I don't always mean my language to be abusive. Colorful maybe. It does get the attention of the reader.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 06:21 PM

As long as everyone's havin' a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 06:31 PM

As I was saying, MG, you get the life you perceive.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Amos
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 08:10 PM

MG:

Fair enough. I know you have a considerate streak somewhere in there. I can't take the time to go in to the number of times I have seen poele change their behaviors toward the better. But we can agree to disagree, for now, and I'll save the gumball for you at a later date.

A

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:42 PM

Martin sez people are bad, and treats people badly... and sure enough, people act badly around him here... because of his 'projected' beliefs...

The US has destabilized two entire socio-economic infrustructures (Afghanistan and Iraq) with heavy bombing and military occupation... and now we wonder why democracy isn't happening in those countries...

A junky shoots up, and envisions a perfect peaceful world... but wakes up broke, hungry, and pathetic... in a delerium of paranoid animosity...

Some people play practical jokes on others incessantly, and in doing so, find other people's baggage amoungst their own...

Others, with a good heart and a gentle disposition, are gossiped about in slanderous ways inconcievable to the kind soul...

Sure... goodness doesn't always pay back like you think it will. But really, the challenges we face with our Love (if we stand up to the task and the acceptance), makes us better at loving...

Then, there's the saying: "If you can't beat 'em, join em!" ...yeh, well... if you can't beat 'em, maybe they are cheating... or maybe you are the game...

Or maybe the journey is much more important than the destination.

*Love more*.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 PM

not only do you get the life you perceive, you give the life you perceive.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM

You got that right, freda. And, if you think people are basically bad, then even when they do something sincere and positive, you'll either say they are naieve or doubt their honesty.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:27 AM

Yikes, I'm afraid I'm a bit with Martin on this one. I think it's quite true that one's expectations influence things, profoundly. My mother-in-law was always afraid of coming downtown at night, but did to see my wife perform. Sure enough at intermission outside a violent drunk came around like a train on schedule. I've never seen anything like it. It was ridiculous, never happens. Sociology will find it's own version of chaos theory.

I don't think people are bad, just not very good under most circumstances, and certainly not as good as we'd like to think under any circumstances. Anyone who feels pretty good probably isn't in a hard enough place, or very aware of the place they are in. There are limits to what a benign interpretation can meaningfully change, even if Robin Williams and Roberto Benini like to think otherwise.

You get what you perceive sounds a little like you get what you deserve, and I don't buy that either. I like Hamlet's version of it. Faulkner's take on the innocence of children is okay, too.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:56 AM

From my perspective, 'evil' and 'badness' in people are the result of an absence of empathy.

I find that what changes a person's way of treating others the fastest and most permanently, is when that person becomes able to put his or herself in another person's shoes, and know what the other person is experiencing. The exception to this, of course, is sado-masochists. I guess when they cause suffering, they're treating others in the way they would like to be treated themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:54 AM

A case in point:

Forty years ago, I spent a summer on a research station situated on top of an iceberg in the Arctic Ocean. There were 14 of us on the Island: ten scientists and 4 support personnel (a cook, two maintenance men and a ham radio operator.) becuase we were completely isolated for three months, we all got to know each other well, and banded together. When I first met the ham radio operator, I was fascinated with the contacts he was making with other radio operators all over the world, and was very friendly toward him to the point that I asked to share a quonset hut with him. I quickly discovered that he distrusted andyone with a college education. His perception was that anyone with a college education thought he was inferior, because he was only a high school graduate (which no one would have known if he hadn't told everyone.) Whenever anyone used an unfamiliar word in conversation, he believed that they were using it to show their superiority.

I spent three months trying to befriend Bob and convince him that just because someone has a college education or uses an occasional word that he isn't familiar with doesn't mean that they think they're better than him. It took the whole summer, and I finally convinced him that I didn't think I was better than him, and that I was a regular guy. But, that didn't change how he thought about everbody else. I wouldn't be suprised that if I met him today, he'd still feel the same way... maybe even more strongly because whenever anyone used a word he didn't know, it only reinforced his negative perception of college educated people.

And what about the other three support staff? None of them had a college education (one was an eskimo) and none of them felt that way.
They enjoyed people for who they were, and got along fine with everyone. The ten scientists were the same. It was the perception of one person that made them completely different. And, because Bob thought that people with an education thought he was inferior, he was always on the defensive.

I don't know if Bob learned anything that summer, but I did. Some people are so locked in to their perception of people that you can't reach them. If you do, as I did with Bob, it doesn't follow that you'll change their perceptions. You may just be the exception that proves the rule.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM

Oh, and Fred: I had to keep the title short, and that's why I expanded on it in the opening post. No, you don't GET what you perceive. You get the life you perceive. There is a major difference there. It doesn't mean that if you think people are criminals, you'll get held up all the time, or that if you think life is threatening, you'll break your leg. If there was any protection against being robbed by believing that everyone is a robber, I suppose that there would at least some benefit in believing that. But, other than using reasonable caution in your relationship with others, and the situations you put yourself in, there's no realistic way to avoid getting hurt (or robbed.) Or, getting cancer, or being in a car accident. You take normal precautions to reduce the risk. Truly evil people may get away with everything (including murder) and seem to be living a happy life, while wonderful, loving, generous people may be stricken down with a terminal illness. Like the woman we visit who is one the most generous, loving, modest people I've ever met who woke up blind one morning. She percieves God as good and believes in the basic goodness of people, so she finds a lot of joy in what might seem to others as a prison of darkness. Someone else experiencing the same thing might become bitter and depressed.
It's how you percieve your life that strongly influences the way you live it (as freda pointed out) and how you relate to other people.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:47 PM

We squareheads enjoy saying: "The way you yell at the mountains is the way they answer back."

At the same time, thieves, violent drunks, and other malefactors force accommodations to their behaviors, and deprive our lives of predictability, unless one lives in denial or naivete, as M-G says.

My opinion: Anyone in proper biochemical balance should be able to be happy in good circumstances, such as being surrounded by decent folk. Consider this exercise: Try to get there (to that contentment) while wading through deep shit. Enjoy it AS exercise. Then you've developed a useful skill, not relying on faith in externalities.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:36 PM

The real crappy attitude I can sometimes have usually occurs as a result of mistaking the mistake of believing what I perceive IS reality. If I percive person as good automatically, I can end up in trouble. (The reverse is true as well.) This is how we decieve ourselves into thinking someone cares about us when they don't give a rat's ass. I've done that, and I've gotten mad at people for not living up to my expectations. I really should be mad at myself for expecting something when I had no reason to believe I should and plenty of reasons to believe I shouldn't. Where did I get the idea that they cared? What lead me to believe they were even capable of it? I'm trying to stop that because it's much more hurtful than even a pessimistic attitude would be. It's a major wreck on the highway of life. A head-on collision between perception and reality.

It works a lot better when perception and reality are a bit closer, and not going in opposite directions. What I DO believe is right is to keep my mind open and to be willing to see the good in people and not automatically assume the person is 'friend', 'foe', or 'mostly harmless'. Once I see who a person really is and how they behave I have enough to call a perception. I believe this is necessary to sanity when it comes to love and your heart is invested.

In the case of people you don't really have a bond with, sometimes just a little undeserved faith in them can lead to enormous changes in their lives. I've seen it happen. The faith, on my part, is sill based on 'you CAN do it' rather than 'you WILL do it'.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:43 PM

Wow, look what Jeri just did, which I think everyone has so far missed: She made a distinction bewteen a "foe" and a "bad person."

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:32 PM

But Jerry, it's only the expansion I really disagree with. I actually do believe that if you think people are criminals the odds are a little better that they will act that way. To a certain crazy extent, I think that, guardedly.
And on the non-verbal thread I was just saying that I think it's rude to find offense everywhere one can. What I was talking about, I think, was weighing the fact that although some people always see prejudice where none exists, sometimes it does exist, right there. Many people practice prejudice without thinking they do, even in doing it. Hm. So maybe if I simply lower my opinion of myself, I become that much more blessed beyond what I think I deserve. Cool.
As for Bob, Edison had much the same problem, and was always playing cruel tricks on his college educated assistants. Not very nice, but I guess maybe it worked for him somehow. Reminds me of the great sadness between the brothers in the movie Raging Bull.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:50 PM

Funny thing, Fred: I've often found that if I treat people with respect (even though I've seen a darker side of them) at least some of the time, they seem to rise to the occasion. I've ended up forging a respectful, mostly enjoyable friendship with people who it seemed that very few other people liked. I guess it can work both ways.

And contrary to what some people have suggested, thinking that there is some good in most people (not Hitler... give me a break..) doesn't mean that you're naeive, or are going to end up beaten bloody in a dark alley. I see evil in the world, not something as chummy as "bad." Like everyone else, I live in the real world. But, perhaps because I believe in the basic goodness of most people, I may be more atuned to seeing it... and most importantly, to acknowledging it in others and expressing my appreciation.

Most of all I hate being called naieve because I can never figure out how to spell it..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:41 PM

I hope you don't think guest,heric is some people who called you naive Jerry (as one of two who used the word), because I certainly didn't intend to. If the subject strayed beyond the spirit which has carried people through the hardest of times, it's only because the opening presented many issues for thought (and I tend to be poorly focused.) Enjoy your evening and thanks for starting the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:49 PM

Between 'trust no one' and 'trust everyone' there may be an ideal road.
The hairs on the back of my tell me who not to trust.
Those who ask for trust are eliminated immediatley.
Those I would like to trust probably eliminate me
because they sensed I asked.

So like most people I settle for a high degree of isolation that lends more safety at the expense of unexpected opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:26 PM

No, Guest heric, I don't remember you saying that I might be naive. Actually, I wasn't bothered that someone would think I was. This has been a good discussion, and I've respected everything that everyone has said. Life is a balancing act, and we all seek to find a way to live positively, while not being gullible (I can spell gullible) or placing ourselves at unnecessary risk.

Funny thing about taking chances, though. Nobody wants to get hurt, including me. But some of the life-changing experiences I've gone through hurt like Hell (well, probably not nearly that much..) We are who we have become, not just because everyone we've trusted or befriended turned out to be trustworthy, or a friend. We are shaped as much by failure as success. I also wouldn't want to minimize the pain of trusting someone and being betrayed.. especially in a close personal relationship.

Wrote a song about it many years ago:

What do you do when the good times are gone?
Sit by the window and wait for the dawn
And you can't remember how things went so wrong, anymore

What does it matter how hard you tried
Or how many times you kept it inside
There's no more to say, and nothing to hide, anymore

Let the conversation roll on, wherever this thread takes it. It's good to talk about stuff like this.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: You Get What You Percieve
From: Sam L
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:37 PM

I also meant to mention the upcoming Oscars, which is sort of a spiritual holiday for me. It restores my lack of faith in humankind.