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Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus
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Subject: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Johnny in OKC Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM On a visit to Las Vegas years ago, I was surprised to see at the downtown intersections, there is a moment when all the traffic lights go red, and people can cross the street diagonally ~~ cattycorner. Does Las Vegas still have these crossings? Are there OTHER CITIES where this is done? Where do the words cattycorner and cattywampus come from, and what does cattywampus actually mean? Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:10 PM San Francisco has them in the Financial District. I believe they call them "scramble corners." I eagerly await folkloric enlightenment on the word origins of the feline-related words, which incidentally I've always heard as "kittycorner" and "cattywumpus." Claire |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM It was introduced, I beliece, in New York by former traffic commissioner Barnes. Generally called the "Barnes Dance." He's the same guy that (I hope) jokingly suggested that all north/south avenues in New York City be made one way, heading north. He pointed out that this would go far towards reducing traffic congestion in NYC, though it might make a mess in Albany. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:20 PM From "The Word Detective" (about whose credibility I know nothing): Since we're still on our extended coffee break, I'll take this opportunity to answer the question you folks didn't ask, namely what "catawampus" (as I'll spell it) actually means. Once again, however, the answer is not simple because the word actually has two quite distinct meanings. A "catawampus" can be a fierce, imaginary animal, the sort of vicious critter that jumps you in the woods shortly before you're never seen again. But "catawampus" can also mean "askew" or "out of whack," as in "Larry's elopement with Eloise knocked Cindy's wedding plans all catawampus." Neither meaning can be definitively traced, but "catawampus" in the eat-you-alive sense may well be a variant on the American folk term "catamount," short for "catamountain," or mountain lion. The "askew" sense of "catawampus" is a real puzzler. The first element of the word, "cata," may be related to "cater," also found in the related word "catercorner" (or, as many folks know it, "cattycorner" or "kittycorner"). "Cater" in these words comes from the French "quatre," or "four," and "catercornered" originally just meant "four-cornered." Today "catercorner" means that two things are diagonally across from each other. The "wampus" part may have come from the Scots word "wampish," meaning "to wriggle or twist," which would certainly seem to fit with "catawampus" meaning "askew" or "crooked." |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM ClaireBear is correct. From the Oxford English Dictionary- Cater means to go diagonally, and has been used in English since the 16th century at least. From the French quatre. Caterways, catercorner, etc. seem to be 19th century in print but could be much earlier. Caterwise is known from Sussex. The OED also says now chiefly U. S., although the words originated in the British Isles. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:08 PM Catawampous (OED spelling), catawampus- The OED also agrees with ClaireBear's posting. Again, 19th c. in print, but dialectical words are not easy to date. The earliest printed use is 1840; also in a story by Bulwar Lytton in Blackwood's Magazine, 1850s. Catawampus, rather than catawampous, seems to be the earlier spelling when applied to an animal. First found in print in 1843. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST,ClaireBear Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM Thank you, O estimable Q. I wish I'd had time to do more research on this myself, but I'm grateful for your detailed fact-checking (also relieved that the information I found was apparently genuine!). Claire |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Joybell Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:14 PM Thanks ClaireBear, my dear red-nosed friend. I've always wondered about a game we played here in Australia called "Puss in the Corner" which involved running diagonally across a square. We played it in square school buildings we called "shelter-sheds". Does anyone have any thoughts on this game? Was it played elsewhere? The terms "catty corner" and "cattywumpus" were not known to me until my American husband told me about them. We have a crossing in Melbourne where you can cross "catty corner" (or any other way with the green pedestrian light). We've never had a term for it as far as I know. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Burke Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM New Orleans had those all traffic stops lights, don't know if they still do. My dad used to commend them highly after moving to a city that didn't have them. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM At a heavy traffic and pedestrian intersection here (western Canada city), lights were installed stopping all motor traffic and allowing pedestrians to cross catercorner as well as normally (like the one in Melbourne?). It didn't last very long; someone was always getting caught in the middle when the lights changed to favor the motor vehicles. Turns also were a problem as no one followed the rules. Don't recall if any name was applied to crossing at it. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Johnny in OKC Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:49 PM Thanks for the great answers! Looks like "Q" might actually own an OED. Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:11 PM I own one that was up to date in 1987. Accepting donations to buy the latest edition. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Dave Swan Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:17 PM |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Dave Swan Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:22 PM To bring a musical note to this discussion, click for Cattywumpus a CD by our friend Kim Hughes. She does mouth music and is a member of Lintie, featured on the same page. D |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Dave Swan Date: 17 Mar 04 - 08:23 PM er... that's Cattywampus, not wumpus. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Johnny in OKC Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:07 PM Note that I had the "correct" spelling all along ~~~ Now how about looking up Wampus Kitty, as in "hotter than a Wampus Kitty's Bing Bang" ... whatever a bing bang is. Many thanks, Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: LadyJean Date: 17 Mar 04 - 11:14 PM You can cross streets "kittie corner" here in Pittsburgh. Cattywampus means at an odd angle. Someone described my parallel parking as cattywampus. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Bill D Date: 18 Mar 04 - 12:48 AM funny...I am 64, and I never saw or needed "cattycornerd" spelled out before, though it was in common usage....I always vaguely imagined it spelled 'cate-cornered' or something. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Noreen Date: 18 Mar 04 - 06:40 AM Never heard either term used here in the UK, nor have I ever seen that sort of pedstrian crossing. Things you learn on the Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: sian, west wales Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:14 AM They tried a 'kittycorner' crosswalk in my home town of Port Colborne, Ontario about 15 years ago. I lasted until the next time they painted the roads up. Not very successful, but don't know why. I do know you had to rocket across if you wanted to do the diagonal - not great for the senior cit's of the town. sian |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Mar 04 - 01:02 PM Like a number of other words that originated in the UK and Ireland, they crossed over to America but died (or almost died) out in their home area (Not sure about catawampus in the sense of a mythical animal, not sure where it came from). Another of these is career-careen usage. Americans may careen around a corner, but this is not done in the UK, although both terms used in that sense are English in origin (see poem below, which I am adding in order to keep this thread above the BS line). In the UK, careen is reserved for upending a boat, etc., for repair. Career in the sense of a race course or to nimbly turn is almost unknown in North America although the usage is old (pre-North American settlement) in the British Isles. Lucifer in Starlight, by George Meredith (c. 1870s) On a starred night Prince Lucifer arose. Tired of his dark dominion swung the fiend Above the rolling ball in cloud part screened, Where sinners hugged their spectre of repose. Poor prey to his hot fit of pride were those. And now upon his western wing he leaned, Now his huge bulk o'er Afric's sands careened, Now the black planet shadowed Arctic snows. Soaring through wider zones that pricked his scars With memory of the old revolt from Awe, He reached middle height, and at the stars, Which are the brain of heaven, he looked and sank. Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank, The army of unalterable law. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM "Critters crossing corners catercornered causes coggin catawampusification," Kitty caterwauled. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Penny S. Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:04 PM Caterways was used occasionally by my mother, born and bred in Sussex - it is possible that the caterwise spelling is a phonetic representation of the accent - its hard for me to remember the true strong Sussex now, which her parents used but she did not, but I think the actual pronounciation was not a pure ay or a pure eye sound. My mother used it to describe the way footpaths crossed fields corner to corner. I use it even more occasionally, and in full knowledge that I am being arch, or something artificial. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Bob Bolton Date: 18 Mar 04 - 07:15 PM G'day Johnny in OKC, I see, from Joybell above, That Melbourne (Victoria, Australia) has one carter-corner crossing in the CBD. Sydney (New South Wales, Australia) also has one; where Park St, the main road east-west, crosses George St, the north-south main road of the city. It's a big intersection ... wide roadways plus a bit of a dog-leg as it passes the Town Hall ... so the diagonal crossing does need a good turn of speed! Frankly, I never heard the crossing method described by any name at all ... maybe we're all too puffed after the catty-scramble! Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 18 Mar 04 - 11:50 PM JOE/MAX/DICK/SUSAN – Please make a MudCat third "break" into a longer lasting "academic-thread" area!!! The barbarian whores have over-run the forum and it is hard to to sift the gems from the mud.
From J.E. Lighter's wonderful Random House Dictionary of Historical American Slang Vol I, p. 368-369. (An intended three volumn collection that will probably never see Jonathan's third and final volumn because Random House has dropped their reference materials publishing after two of his volumns….and his refusal to settle for a smaller, less detailed version.)
catawampusn. a peculiar or remarkable thing or person.Often joc. 1833 Paulding Lion of the West 21: On my way I took a squint at my wild lands along by the Big Muddy and Little Muddy to Bear Grass Creek, and had what I call a rael [sic], roundabout catawampus, clean through the destrict 1843 in DA 282: The tother one what got most sker'd, is a sort of catawampus. 1936 R. Adams Cowboy Lingo 236: This old catawampus…orates as how he's got more troubles than a rat-tailed hoss tied short in fly-time. 1947> in DA 282.
catawampusadj. [orig. unkn.] Midland 1. ferocious or impressive.
1843 Dickens Chuzzlewit ch xxi: There air some catawampous chawers in the small way too. 1847 Davy Crockett's Alm. (unp.): On the back of catawampus grate wolf.
2. out of shape; diagonal, crooked, or askew. Also adv.
3. incorrect or out of order. 1884 in DA: I kin prove gter ye that ye air all cat-a-wampus on that p'int. 1943 AS (Feb) 66: Catawampus (badly out of order) S.C.
4. (see quot.).
catawampusv. 1. to confuse, fonfound, injure, or damage. 1839 in DA 282: A catawompussed fix. 1880 in DA May I be cat-a-wampussed. 1906> DN III 129: Catawampus, v. tr. To warp. "The fire just catawampused this boiler." 2. to move diagonally.
(THIS COULD KEEP GOING AND GOING….but a couple more …..)
1834 in DARE: The gineral was catawampously inclin'd tu the United States' service. 1836 Cather Voyage 112: These tarnation bugs will catawamously chaw me up. 1844 Spirit of Time (Jan 27) 572: You will be separetly and singly, collectively and jointly catawampously and tetotaciously "chawd" up
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Joybell Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:17 AM Our Melbourne crossing, mentioned above, is at the T intersection of Flinders Street and Elizabeth Street. In case anyone cares to visit it. It's been set up this way since at least the 1950s. There used to be a cop on duty there who was a real showman. He danced and gesticulated and mimed as he directed traffic. I once watched him do a terrific fake death scene when a car almost hit him. I've often wondered what happened to him and where he went. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: LadyJean Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:19 AM My father invented the Cattawampus Hoppus, a creature with tiger's head and a kangaroo's body, that turned up at various moments in our country's history. As I remember the Cattawampus Hoppus got Ceasar Rodney to Philadelphia to sign the declaration of independence. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Noreen Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:13 AM gargoyle : I think you mean barbarian hordes. And BTW, I believe that neither Dick nor Susan has anything to do with the arrangement of threads on this site. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: JennieG Date: 19 Mar 04 - 07:09 AM Bib, There's a diagonal crossing in Paramatta too, corner of Church and Phillip Streets. It's a good idea but because it's so seldom seen people seem to be very confused! Cheers JennieG |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Johnny in OKC Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM Great stuff, everybody !! And a fine number of cities with "cattercorner" crossings. gargoyle - Did you type all that yourself? Such dedication. Love, Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: JohnInKansas Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:11 PM You guys can go cattywampus or kittycorner if you want, but in my neck o' the cornpatch we went antigoggle. John |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: clueless don Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:48 PM Johnny in OKC, They had this sort of intersection (where traffic lights go red in both directions and pedestrians may cross the intersection diagonally) in downtown Washington D.C. when I was a boy (they may still do, for all I know - I haven't been downtown in decades.) They also had them in the D.C. suburb of Silver Spring MD, though that may no longer be the case. There is an intersection not too far from me in Wheaton MD (specifically Arcola Avenue and Lamberton Drive) where the traffic lights go red in both directions, and a display counts down the seconds until one of the lights will go green again. I don't think the intersection is striped for diagonal crossing, but I wouldn't be surprised if people do so. Don |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Joybell Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:55 PM Did anyone else have those lights that were set up as clocks? They weren't lights at all actually they were dials with hands going around to red, amber then green. You could tell how long you had to cross. We had them at some intersections in Melbourne up to the 1950s. Didn't catch on it seems. Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Margaret V Date: 19 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM Joy, I worked at a living history museum here in New York that interpreted the late 18th century. One of the games we taught school children was "Puss in the Corner," just as you describe, but I'll have to check with my colleagues there to see what our source for the game was. Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM Huntington, West Virginia, had the diagonal crossing back in the 1960's. The lights would all go red, a bell would ring, and you could run across. The citizens dubbed it "flash and dash," or something equally witty. I forget. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Riginslinger Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:37 PM I knew an old mechanic who would alternate. When he put something together and it didn't fit right, he'd say it, "Fit like a saddle on a sow." But if he put two things together in a row that didn't fit, he'd say, "It's cattywampus," so he didn't have to repeat himself. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Alice Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:02 AM Here we say Kitty Corner. I never heard cattywampus until I was in high school and we had a teacher from the south. Alice in Montana |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Riginslinger Date: 28 Sep 07 - 06:23 PM I think Kitty Corner and Cattywampus are different things, actually. If something is Cattywampus it means "It's headed off for Giles County." |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Joybell Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:12 PM Yes Riginslinger I agree. So Margaret V - Knew about "Puss in the Corner". Are you still here Margaret? I'll try sending you a PM. Thank you. I forgot to check back to this thread back in 04. Cheers, Joy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:15 PM There are intersections in our downtown "Gaslamp Quarter" where there is an "all skate" when the light changes. I think the terms come from the tendency of cats to take the path of least resistence or first impulse, without regard to rules. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Sep 07 - 07:55 PM This has been gone through before, either in this thread or another. catawampus- a peculiar or remarkable thing or person. 1833- Paulding, "Lion of the West." On my way I took a squint at my wild lands along by the Big Muddy and Little Muddy to Bear Grass Creek, and had what I call a rael roundabout catawampus, clean through the destrict. Dickens, "Chuzzlewit." There air some catawampous chewers in the small way too. Catawampus v. to confuse, confound, injure or damage. 1839, in Matthews, Dictionary of Americanisms. A catawompussed fix. To warp- in Dialect Notes, 1906- The fire just catawampused this boiler. Catawampus v. to move diagonally (related to catercorner). 1902, Dialect Notes. From Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang, vol. 1. -------------------------------------- Cater n. to place or set rhomboidally; to move or go diagonally. 1577. Thus caterwise, cater-cornered, etc., 19th c. Oxford English Dictionary. catercorner, 1838, in a diagonal or oblique position, etc. Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Cater once referred to four, thus the 4-cornered 'catercap' of academics. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: kendall Date: 29 Sep 07 - 07:23 PM Kittycornered is common here. Not so common is: Womplejawed, or galleywest. Leaning toward Sawyers is common. Simply means out of plumb. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Riginslinger Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:17 AM Kendall - Never heard of "Leaning toward Sawyers." Where are you? Around here they used to say "Headed off to Giles County," to mean out of square. The way I've heard "Cattywampus" used since the 1950's doesn't seem to fit any of the definitions Q supplied above. I recall is simply meaning something that didn't fit or seemed out of place. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: kendall Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:08 PM I'm in Maine |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Celtaddict Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:33 PM We used catercorner often to mean diagonal, and catawampus (usually pronounced 'cattywampus') less often to mean completely deranged, in Oklahoma in the 1950s. My family also had 'widdershins' from my Scots grandmother; 'gane widdershins roon' was used for 'messed up completely' and it was not until decades later I learned it meant in Scots, 'gone counterclockwise around' and referred to going round a church, used in some spells or charms. Galleywest I did not pick up until I moved to New England. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Cattycorner, Cattywampus From: Jack Campin Date: 21 Nov 10 - 07:37 AM I've never heard "kitty-corner" or "cattywumpus" in the UK. I don't know what the UK word for an all-ways-at-once crossing is - it's the usual type so maybe nobody thinks of giving it a name. In New Zealand when I was there they were called "barnes dance" crossings (al least by some people - I may have had an atypical experience since my father was an architect who had been trained as a town planner, so I may have picked up plannerese rather than Kiwi). |
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